jamescollins
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What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
I've been having a look at Cubase, mainly because I need a DAW that supports multi in/out plugins because I work in surround a lot. There are some features that seem great, like VST Expression, but i was wondering what people thought who own both? Why do you own both ie. what can Cubase do that X1 can't? As far as i can tell, Cubase seems a lot slower that Sonar at editing multi-track drums (when AudioSnap works that is  ) which is an issue. What are some other areas where Cubase is behind Sonar, and vice-versa?
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ProjectM
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 09:11:29
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Hmmm.... I work a lot in Nuendo - it's almost Cubase;) I work in it because it happens to be the weapon of choice at a studio i Work where I have a secure income next to all my freelance, music stuff. What you say about editing multitrack drums doesn't quite add up to me, tho. Nuendo and I would guess Cubase, is actually not bad at all when it comes to Audio editing. The MIDI part of Steinberg software have always seemed a bit cumbersome to me - but hey, it works just fine. My reply to your question is that they are both really, really good. You can pretty much accomplish exactly the same results in both packages - just in a different way. I choose Sonar over a Steinberg product any day. Just my preference. It's way cheaper too! One thing i do want to point out is that the Metronome routing in Nuendo/Cubase is a bleeding Nightmare compared to Sonar's. But they are both good. I just look better with Sonar;) Oh... just need to add one more thing: Sonars Surround capabillities - even though I haven't tested them properly - seems to be a billion lightyears ahead of Nuendo when it comes to ease of use and seting up. It's just there up front and as easy to add as any other track. In Nuendo you have to mess about with extra mixer views etc. And in Cubase I think it's limited, but possible. May have changed in the latest version.
post edited by ProjectM - 2010/12/28 09:14:19
(Sonar Platinum - Win10 x64) - iMac and 13" MacBook - Logic Pro X ++ - UA Apollo Twin DUO - NI Maschine MKII - NI Komplete Kontrol S61 - Novation Nocturne - KRK Rokit 6 SoundcloudNegative Vibe Records
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kubalibre
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 10:43:04
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Wow, that would need a long answer. But to mention a few, Cubase 5.5 has Arranger Track Professional Tempo Handling Notation VariAudio Scoring to Picture, frame accurate engine with 64 Bit wrapper + Quicktime support Articulation maps / VST Expression VST 3.0 plugin support Switch between musical and time linear base Project Logical editor Automation lanes Automation Master Control Window Mediabay handling all types of preset and audio formats + separate asset pool Better ASIO support!!!! (since they inventend ASIO) .... to name a few... AND.. it does not crash. more details here http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/cubase5_why_cubase.html
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kubalibre
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 10:49:38
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ProjectM
One thing i do want to point out is that the Metronome routing in Nuendo/Cubase is a bleeding Nightmare compared to Sonar's.
Well, at least the click can be turned on and off anytime during playback / recording by pressing "C". ;-D Hmm.. did you get the concept of the control room mixer?? There is a whole section for routing metronome click or headphone mixes seperately wherever you need it. Takes a look at the manual though - Never said Cubase is easy for starters. It can get frustrating if someone does not know where to start. Sonar is perhaps more entry level friendly for the folks who have not used music software before.
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OldDog
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 10:56:09
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kubalibre
ProjectM
One thing i do want to point out is that the Metronome routing in Nuendo/Cubase is a bleeding Nightmare compared to Sonar's.
Well, at least the click can be turned on and off anytime during playback / recording by pressing "C".
;-D
Hmm.. did you get the concept of the control room mixer?? There is a whole section for routing metronome click or headphone mixes seperately wherever you need it. Takes a look at the manual though - Never said Cubase is easy for starters. It can get frustrating if someone does not know where to start. Sonar is perhaps more entry level friendly for the folks who have not used music software before.
Not sure what the difference is, I can mute the metronome in Sonar anytime I want by pressing the mute button for that bus.
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kubalibre
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 11:01:06
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OldDog
kubalibre
ProjectM
One thing i do want to point out is that the Metronome routing in Nuendo/Cubase is a bleeding Nightmare compared to Sonar's.
Well, at least the click can be turned on and off anytime during playback / recording by pressing "C".
;-D
Hmm.. did you get the concept of the control room mixer?? There is a whole section for routing metronome click or headphone mixes seperately wherever you need it. Takes a look at the manual though - Never said Cubase is easy for starters. It can get frustrating if someone does not know where to start. Sonar is perhaps more entry level friendly for the folks who have not used music software before.
Not sure what the difference is, I can mute the metronome in Sonar anytime I want by pressing the mute button for that bus.
never mind. There was a discussion going on around this in mike mccues open letter thread....
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Positively Charged
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 11:07:33
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kubalibre
Wow, that would need a long answer. But to mention a few, Cubase 5.5 has
Arranger Track
Professional Tempo Handling
Notation
VariAudio
Scoring to Picture, frame accurate engine with 64 Bit wrapper + Quicktime support
Articulation maps / VST Expression
VST 3.0 plugin support
Switch between musical and time linear base
Project Logical editor
Automation lanes
Automation Master Control Window
Mediabay handling all types of preset and audio formats + separate asset pool
Better ASIO support!!!! (since they inventend ASIO)
....
to name a few...
AND.. it does not crash. I highlighted in blue some of the things especially important to me. In red, those things I don't use much (yet) and/or need to learn more about. But honestly, all DAWs crash. Sooner or later. 
post edited by Positively Charged - 2010/12/28 11:12:26
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Supercomposer
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 11:54:04
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Positively Charged
But honestly, all DAWs crash. Sooner or later.
IMHO, until the X1x patch arrives, for Sonar that means rather sooner than later! I use PT and Steinberg hosts as well, and both hardly ever crash, I accidentially threw in a rather buggy old 32bit plugin, well that stupidity can cause a crash. But if the program itself would be unstable, that would be unacceptable. I had BSODs, erratic behaviour and program shutdowns with X1a. No way will this get on my HD again before the next 5 free hotfixes arrive.
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Dave Modisette
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 12:28:52
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Arranger Track Professional Tempo Handling Notation VariAudio Scoring to Picture, frame accurate engine with 64 Bit wrapper + Quicktime support Articulation maps / VST Expression VST 3.0 plugin support Switch between musical and time linear base Project Logical editor Automation lanes Automation Master Control Window Mediabay handling all types of preset and audio formats + separate asset pool Better ASIO support!!!! (since they inventend ASIO) These look more like bullet points. I mean, what exactly is "more professional" tempo handling? How is that different from amateur tempo handling? I could say, "Skylight" - Cubase doesn't have Skylight but what would that mean to a Cubase user?
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kubalibre
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 13:08:38
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Mod Bod
These look more like bullet points.
I mean, what exactly is "more professional" tempo handling? How is that different from amateur tempo handling?
I could say, "Skylight" - Cubase doesn't have Skylight but what would that mean to a Cubase user?
Well.. "Skylight" is not a good example, because its just a made up name for a GUI.. they could have called it "Adidas" or "Lightbulb" as well and never would anyone think its the name for a GUI.. anyway With professional tempo handling I mean for example advanced grid manipulation features like the time warp tool, or how the inplace tempo track or tempo view handles. Some self explanatory examples can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipf8IwGpDSs and regarding linear/musical timebase have a peek here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPkhFgD9al0 another Bullet point -> arranger track http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq4vsM2C2wE VST Expression maps / notation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4I3Zr-EE0&feature=related
post edited by kubalibre - 2010/12/28 13:32:53
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Scott Lee
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 13:27:31
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Cubase also takes about 3-4 times more steps to do somethings that takes 1 step in Sonar. I work with Cubase as well when client needs me too, so I do know the program quite well. It does have some advance features, but, the workflow is where it suffers compared to Sonar for basic functionally. Thats my 2 cents on the matter.
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kubalibre
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 13:35:21
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Scott Lee
Cubase also takes about 3-4 times more steps to do somethings that takes 1 step in Sonar. Really? Can you give a specific example?
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John T
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 13:37:59
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They irony of the ongoing DAW wars, of course, is that they've all never been more similar in terms of features and functionality than they've become in the last couple of years.
Try to demo a few, pick the one you "get" the quickest, would be my advice.
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FastBikerBoy
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Funkybot
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 13:50:30
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FastBikerBoy, I'm actually kind of interested in this as Cubase is something I'd like to start looking at (in addition to Reaper, Pro Tools 9, and Studio One). There's been some helpful information in this thread already.
Can someone explain VST Expression to me? I've been hearing it talked about in vague terms lately, but I still don't know exactly what it is that makes it so great.
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Dave Modisette
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 13:53:46
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kubalibre
Mod Bod
These look more like bullet points.
I mean, what exactly is "more professional" tempo handling? How is that different from amateur tempo handling?
I could say, "Skylight" - Cubase doesn't have Skylight but what would that mean to a Cubase user?
Well.. "Skylight" is not a good example, because its just a made up name for a GUI.. they could have called it "Adidas" or "Lightbulb" as well and never would anyone think its the name for a GUI.. anyway
With professional tempo handling I mean for example advanced grid manipulation features like the time warp tool, or how the inplace tempo track or tempo view handles.
Some self explanatory examples can be seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipf8IwGpDSs
and regarding linear/musical timebase have a peek here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPkhFgD9al0
another Bullet point -> arranger track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq4vsM2C2wE
VST Expression maps / notation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4I3Zr-EE0&feature=related
Thanks. I had a quick peek and saw the Time Warp feature. Looks like a feature request I submitted prior to Audiosnap. I always felt it was more natural to pull midi tracks into alignment with an audio track with a good feel. Dragging the grid seemed to be the easiest way to work for the producer/artist. SONAR came out with Set Meas/Beat to current position (something to that effect) which was likely the easiest way to do it for the coder. I think dragging the grid markers is the better way.
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kubalibre
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 14:16:44
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Mod Bod
kubalibre
Mod Bod
These look more like bullet points.
I mean, what exactly is "more professional" tempo handling? How is that different from amateur tempo handling?
I could say, "Skylight" - Cubase doesn't have Skylight but what would that mean to a Cubase user?
Well.. "Skylight" is not a good example, because its just a made up name for a GUI.. they could have called it "Adidas" or "Lightbulb" as well and never would anyone think its the name for a GUI.. anyway
With professional tempo handling I mean for example advanced grid manipulation features like the time warp tool, or how the inplace tempo track or tempo view handles.
Some self explanatory examples can be seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipf8IwGpDSs
and regarding linear/musical timebase have a peek here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPkhFgD9al0
another Bullet point -> arranger track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq4vsM2C2wE
VST Expression maps / notation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_4I3Zr-EE0&feature=related
Thanks. I had a quick peek and saw the Time Warp feature. Looks like a feature request I submitted prior to Audiosnap. I always felt it was more natural to pull midi tracks into alignment with an audio track with a good feel. Dragging the grid seemed to be the easiest way to work for the producer/artist. SONAR came out with Set Meas/Beat to current position (something to that effect) which was likely the easiest way to do it for the coder. I think dragging the grid markers is the better way.
Cakewalk should listen to your feature requests! Yep, this is one of the most valueable tools. Recently I got a film scene temp tracked with an instrumental piece, the tempo was fluid and the film scene was already cut to the music - with the grid manipulation I was able to get a tempo map based on the 2 minute audio file in about 5 minutes, and replace the piece with a new composition based on the original tempo map.
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Supercomposer
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 14:24:48
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jamescollins
Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
Cubase can find my audio interface. X1a says it does not exist.
ME is the Supercomposer, and all your base are belong to us (Yes, I mean Germany) System Spec: CPU 2x X7560 Xeon 16-Core, 48 GIG Ram Kingston, Intel with Supermicro Workstation MP Boards, RME HDSPe, PNY Quadro 6000
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kubalibre
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 14:39:47
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Funkybot
FastBikerBoy, I'm actually kind of interested in this as Cubase is something I'd like to start looking at (in addition to Reaper, Pro Tools 9, and Studio One). There's been some helpful information in this thread already.
Can someone explain VST Expression to me? I've been hearing it talked about in vague terms lately, but I still don't know exactly what it is that makes it so great.
If you are into instrumental composition, notation, orchestrating with libraries, VST expression is a great tool to use. There is nothing comparable in either ProTools, S1, Reaper or Sonar unfortunately. VST expression tools are like an interface between classical notation and piano roll view (called Key-Editor in Cubase) You can load up for example a flute patch from VSL, Halion Orchestra or any other library which has multiple articulations, lets say draw in a monophonic melody in a MIDI part, start adding VST expressions and define legato, staccato, portato, trills.. you name it. All on a single midi track, without having keyswitch midi events which would show up in your notation. And it works vice versa, you can also draw these into notation view. There are some videos on youtube on VST expression, also I had a link posted above. Hope that helps.
post edited by kubalibre - 2010/12/28 14:43:01
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jamescollins
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/28 17:19:16
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Thank you for all the very helpful replies. Isn't it annoying that we can't have everything in one DAW?! It looks as though I'll just have to pretty much 'waste' a grand or whatever the cost is to buy Cubase too. The only thing i actually NEED that Sonar doesn't do right now is proper surround support (I'm not concerned about the separate mixer view required as pointed out by ProjectM), but looking at the features kubalibre pointed out, it looks very juicy! There are some features there which i suspect, once I use, I would consider them 'must have.' So here's what I'm wondering - looks like I'm going to have to buy Cubase too, but I would never give up X1 - love it. So, for those of you who work with multiple DAWs, how do you do it? It would be a shame to only use Cubase for 5.1 work, but exporting and importing every track every time you want to use a feature in another DAW is ridiculous. And OMF files don't carry plugin info, right? So I'd love to hear how people integrate multiple DAWs, because right now, I just can't see how it's practical.
post edited by jamescollins - 2010/12/28 17:22:15
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ProjectM
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 06:27:50
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kubalibre
ProjectM
One thing i do want to point out is that the Metronome routing in Nuendo/Cubase is a bleeding Nightmare compared to Sonar's.
Well, at least the click can be turned on and off anytime during playback / recording by pressing "C".
;-D
Hmm.. did you get the concept of the control room mixer?? There is a whole section for routing metronome click or headphone mixes seperately wherever you need it. Takes a look at the manual though - Never said Cubase is easy for starters. It can get frustrating if someone does not know where to start. Sonar is perhaps more entry level friendly for the folks who have not used music software before.
Ha ha, you're right about hiting "C" and that is surely it's best feature. I have no problems with working with Nuendo's routing and sending the metronome to any or no output. But, Cakwalk just make it so damn simple in Sonar. It's just sending a Tick-Tick-Tick-Tick to some output at a certain level, doesn't need to be difficult. I just should be easier to toggle - but that's another thread. Anyway, I stick to what I said; All the DAWs are good. They deliver what they claim to do. It all comes down to preference.
(Sonar Platinum - Win10 x64) - iMac and 13" MacBook - Logic Pro X ++ - UA Apollo Twin DUO - NI Maschine MKII - NI Komplete Kontrol S61 - Novation Nocturne - KRK Rokit 6 SoundcloudNegative Vibe Records
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Freddie H
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 06:44:00
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kubalibre
Wow, that would need a long answer. But to mention a few, Cubase 5.5 has
Arranger Track
Professional Tempo Handling
Notation
VariAudio
Scoring to Picture, frame accurate engine with 64 Bit wrapper + Quicktime support
Articulation maps / VST Expression
VST 3.0 plugin support
Switch between musical and time linear base
Project Logical editor
Automation lanes
Automation Master Control Window
Mediabay handling all types of preset and audio formats + separate asset pool
Better ASIO support!!!! (since they inventend ASIO)
....
to name a few...
AND.. it does not crash.
more details here
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/cubase5_why_cubase.html
I don't know what you talking about or what kind of strange X1 version you are using but this features are not available X1 VS Cubase 5  *Arranger Track (We have Matrix that are same as in Cubase 5 Arranger. I think Matrix are even more flexible and better then arranger) *Notation (We still have notation but Cubase 5 have a far more advance notation) *Articulation maps / VST Expression (In score editing check above) * VST 3.0 plugin support, yes that sucks! Vari Audio? You are joking right? X1 have countless of functions that Pitch, stretch, and tune audio. iZotope are far much better then VARI Audio.
post edited by Freddie H - 2010/12/29 06:47:19
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Freddie H
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 06:53:49
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Positively Charged
kubalibre
Wow, that would need a long answer. But to mention a few, Cubase 5.5 has
Arranger Track
Professional Tempo Handling
Notation
VariAudio
Scoring to Picture, frame accurate engine with 64 Bit wrapper + Quicktime support
Articulation maps / VST Expression
VST 3.0 plugin support
Switch between musical and time linear base
Project Logical editor
Automation lanes
Automation Master Control Window
Mediabay handling all types of preset and audio formats + separate asset pool
Better ASIO support!!!! (since they inventend ASIO)
....
to name a few...
AND.. it does not crash.
I highlighted in blue some of the things especially important to me.
In red, those things I don't use much (yet) and/or need to learn more about.
But honestly, all DAWs crash. Sooner or later.
We have all blue features in SONAR X1. Perhaps you haven't discover all the features in SONAR X1 yet?
Switch between musical and time linear base and you can switch to sample base too.
Professional Tempo Handling, we have and it exactly look and work like in Cubase and LOGIC too
VariAudio , ?We have iZotope, Audiosnap,(same as Pro Tools HD) x64 Rexfile support, Groveclips and V-Vocal and all this doesn't work for you? You can always add Melodyne. Automation lanes Have you checkout automation in X1 yet? Its far the advance and flexible automation on the market yet...
post edited by Freddie H - 2010/12/29 06:55:34
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Freddie H
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 06:59:42
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Funny, complaining that "C" doesn't activate the metronome? How hard can it be to change the key command for Metronome or any functions in SONAR.
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Freddie H
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 07:02:51
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What can't Cubase do that SONAR X1 can? Customize anything, change the arrange background to black color, Icons and SONAR x1 have PRO CHANNEL. Pro Channel makes the biggest difference if you are into world class mixing..
post edited by Freddie H - 2010/12/29 07:05:23
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timidi
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 07:12:17
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How hard can it be to change the key command for Metronome or any functions in SONAR. try it and see.
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UnderTow
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 07:18:25
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Mod Bod
I mean, what exactly is "more professional" tempo handling? How is that different from amateur tempo handling?
Here is one example of Cubase Time Warp in action. This can't be done in Sonar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PMLha0Dhe8 EDIT: I see it is the same video that kubalibre posted. Just a different URL.
I could say, "Skylight" - Cubase doesn't have Skylight but what would that mean to a Cubase user?
Skylight is nothing but a marketing name. It doesn't mean or do anything. You might as well say that Sonar is a better DAW because it is called Sonar. ;-) One of the great advantages to me of Cubase over Sonar is the rock solid audio engine. It doesn't gap or glitch. In Sonar all sorts of simple things make the audio engine gap (For instance changing the loop points) this is very distracting and breaks the musical workflow and feel. UnderTow
post edited by UnderTow - 2010/12/29 07:21:03
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JClosed
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 07:22:51
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What is Cubase better in? Well a few things, but the most important... Cubase is far better in depleting your money.... Yes! Really! Don't believe me? Here it is: Cakewalk X1 - € 389,- Cubase 5 - € 539,- (prices here in the Netherlands). You see? It is a shame Sonar is really lacking here. I think we all must have the privilege to spend MUCH more money on Sonar X1. It is embarrassing to tell your friends you spend a LOT less money on something that is in essence does the same as Cubase 5. I think we are mislead and terribly treated by Cakewalk . Booo, booo, boOOO.....!!!! At the other hand - I heard Protools 9 is even more expensive than Cubase 5. Just wait and watch the Steinberg forum explode!! That will teach them ... those...those.. those...SNOBS! Oh... it's all sad and bad.... 
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guitarmikeh
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 07:25:21
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I harbor no ill will towards any man.
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Freddie H
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Re:What can Cubase do that X1 can't?
2010/12/29 07:27:25
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UnderTow
Mod Bod
I mean, what exactly is "more professional" tempo handling? How is that different from amateur tempo handling?
Here is one example of Cubase Time Warp in action. This can't be done in Sonar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PMLha0Dhe8
EDIT: I see it is the same video that kubalibre posted. Just a different URL.
I could say, "Skylight" - Cubase doesn't have Skylight but what would that mean to a Cubase user?
Skylight is nothing but a marketing name. It doesn't mean or do anything. You might as well say that Sonar is a better DAW because it is called Sonar. ;-)
One of the great advantages to me of Cubase over Sonar is the rock solid audio engine. It doesn't gap or glitch. In Sonar all sorts of simple things make the audio engine gap (For instance changing the loop points) this is very distracting and breaks the musical workflow and feel.
UnderTow
Yes Nuendo are for much advance when it come to working with Film. Problems with audio engine gap (For instance changing the loop points) ? Strange that doesn't happen for me in SONAR or any other program. Sounds more like bad audio-card driver or sharing of IRQ. What platform and audiocard are you using? SONAR X1 x64 or x32? Regards Freddie
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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