Guitarhacker
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 10:49:50
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MattMVS7
.....So if a person is good at being creative in their head, wouldn't he/she be talented at being creative? .....
NO. If you keep it in your head... who's to say? The talent is PROVEN only when the idea is moved into the real world. Bob Dylan, Albert Einstein, John Lennon, Charlie Chaplin, Houdini, Chopin, all were very talented folks, but if they had kept their ideas in their heads we would never have known their true measure of talent. Imagine Beethoven saying... hey I have this really brilliant idea for a 9th symphony..... and leaving it at that. Imagine Harry Houdini saying... hey, I have this really cool idea for an illusion.... and leaving it at that. Imagine John Lennon saying..... hey I have a really cool idea for a song called Imagine.... and leaving it at that. NO, NO, NO, and NO again!!!! .... being creative in your head is simply NOT ENOUGH. You gotta get it out and into a tangible form or it's less than worthless daydreaming. You are not the judge of your brilliance. The world around you is. Its a case now of "Put up or Shut up."
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 10:54:55
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Matt, daft as it sounds, have you considered paying a musician or composer to help translate and arrange your ideas into reality?
Other than the melody, I don't know how many parts of a score you can imagine at once, but even if you sat down with someone at a piano and maybe just hummed the basics to them, you'd be able to hear a composition taking shape more clearly.
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Beepster
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 11:03:29
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He was trying to get one of us to do it for free. He also says he has a musical friend that might help.
But he needs to refine the ideas a bit more. If he at least got his melody and structure in order a good musician should be able to fill in the rest. As it stands what he has posted so far would be very difficult to work with. That's why I tried to get him to learn about the modes of C Major. He should be able to get something more coherent from there just using the white keys on his controller which an accomplished musician could then work with.
Dude doesn't need to have the skill of Mozart but he's gotta get a little bit of experience and understanding to get started. I know there is a structure there but his vocal stuff is indecipherable and the MIDI version is extremely dissonant/out of time... and not in a good way.
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Linear Phase
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 11:05:15
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too many lasers...  Sonar = audio editing ninja of a music software!
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jamesg1213
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 11:08:33
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I'm not sure harmonica is going to be the best place to start. Until you become reasonably proficient it's a hideous noise. I'd stick with keyboards, at least the notes are already 'there'.
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bapu
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 13:08:55
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MattMVS7
bapu
What is musical talent in this given situation?
Simple answer: There is none.
Now feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but talent is something you're good at. So if a person is good at being creative in their head, wouldn't he/she be talented at being creative? Again, this is a musical topic I made completely different from what most musical topics would be (a good philosophical-like question). This is not a technical musical topic. Also, regardless of ones status (in this case, producers who have dedicated their lives in making music), everyone is different and has their own issues/questions/situations in life, and everyone should feel free no matter what experience level they have in music, in asking any question or engaging in what is intended to be a pleasant conversation involving positive mannered reasonings--not negative arguments (positive reasonings are what I'm making--there is no intended negativity in any of my posts towards others).
  
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drewfx1
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 13:17:17
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mike_mccue
This can be a deep subject if you want it to be...
What is talent? Is it some innate ability you are born with?
Is talent "nature", or is talent the result of outside influence, education, and awareness ?
Is talent "nurtured" rather than the result of some spontaneous natural force?
Are you implying it has to be one or the other? Are these songs you hear in your head your absolute and original creations or are they amalgamations and mash ups of everything you have already heard?
In almost all cases, people are largely repeating, rearranging and producing variations on what they have heard and are familiar with, particularly people with limited backgrounds who might not even realize they are using the same chords/scales/rhythms/progressions over and over again. If one spends some time listening to a variety of music from outside the traditional/common/normal/popular genres in their milieu they will likely realize how much we limit ourselves. Note that this is not necessarily a bad thing. If you are an artist attempting to work in a given genre, you are somewhat limited by the rules of that genre - otherwise your audience might start calling you Judas (which may or may not suit you ).
Do you have the skill to recognize the difference in thoughts that you synthesize and create with your own mind and thoughts that are merely a realization of ideas that have entered your brain from various external influences?
Do you need a skill to make that decision? Or can you just be naturally talented at recognizing talent?
You can easily create a circular definition here - "I am talented at doing what I do". Well duh, of course you are! But one cannot really claim they have a talent for creating "popular" music/art without ever exposing their creations to the public. People sometimes play with semantics in a discussion to get the results they want - use a vague definition of "talent" here and a more specific one there and pretend they are the same.
When people stop and state something like "that person has a talent for that", what do you think they mean? What is it that they recognize as talent? Do they actually recognize that talent or are they acknowledging a symptom of something they call "talent"?
A dictionary can sometimes come in handy.
For example; Is it possible to consider someone as a talented cook without ever viewing, smelling or tasting some of the food they cooked?
You could consider someone based on reputation. But how you evaluate "talent" would depend on your standards. Is someone a talented cook if they create unique and unusual food you personally don't happen to enjoy? This is a question of the criteria used for evaluation more than "talent" itself.
Have you ever looked at a total stranger... someone you were wholly unfamiliar with and sensed that they were imbued with "talent"?
Pretending we can "sense" something we don't/can't sense sounds like it's either a trick question or someone confusing one's self.
It's hard for a person, such as myself, to consider your theory that one may have an instinctive knowledge that they possess some natural talent.
Why not? The trick is the semantical game - "I have a talent for imagining music that I believe is superior based on my own subjective standards" is not the same as saying, "I have a talent for imagining music that meets some external standards - perhaps just popular appeal, perhaps some other unspoken standard". But if you have an objective criteria and a clear understanding of that objective criteria used for evaluation, then you could make such a determination (if you are honest with yourself). If you focus on the criteria for evaluation, the question becomes much simpler: "Do I have some special ability in meeting these specific criteria?". In some cases the criteria are clear, but if they aren't, and if a person can't articulate them, it becomes difficult to make an evaluation. Testing popular appeal sort of requires putting something before the public, but personal subjective determinations risk the circular argument: "I am talented in doing what I do".
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 13:21:51
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You can be as talented as you want......... I have untalented fully sewn up though so keep your hands off that claim. Thank you. 
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SteveStrummerUK
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 13:46:18
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Beepster
He was trying to get one of us to do it for free. He also says he has a musical friend that might help. Thanks Beepster. I was a bit late to this thread so I only read the OP and did a quick scan through the rest of it.
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yorolpal
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 14:06:57
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Sounds like it would take something on the order of a "vulcan mind-meld" to make it happen. And that there might scar ya fer life!!
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Beepster
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 14:14:16
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Thanks Beepster. I was a bit late to this thread so I only read the OP and did a quick scan through the rest of it. Today I feel kind of bad for being so heavy handed but I guess I was in a bad mood or something. However I see only one of two possibilities here... OP is a troll or a troubled young man. If it is the former then he deserves any and all scorn. If it is the latter then someone... ANYONE needs to tell him the truth. Considering all that's happened in the past few weeks it is imperative for anyone on the edge and/or their relatives to get these folks into a happy, healthy mental state. It should not be left up to internet strangers. Fortunately this forum is a very nurturing and forgiving environment in general. Other places... not so much. Peace.
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jbow
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 14:32:13
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I always do the drum track with my teeth when I do music in my head. Maybe I could invent MIDI dentures... hmmmm. "Now feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this, but talent is something you're good at." OK then, NO. Something you're good at is a skill. You get it (to be really good) by many, many hours of practice and work. 10,000 hours is a general rule if you want to be top level. Talent is an innate ability but it means nothing if it is not developed by teaching, practice, and hard work. You see people on the tryouts for any of the Idol shows who think they have talent but have not put in the time and work required to be good. Some people are an "overnight sensation" after 10 years of hard work in clubs or other venues. There is no free lunch. J
post edited by jbow - 2012/12/28 14:41:22
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ohgrant
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 14:40:08
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Well if he is for real I don't think blowing sunshine up his arse is going to help him develop. If he is creative in his head he needs to find a way of expressing it. The burden of proof is his. It's a tough world out there for folks with musical ambitions. 24 years old and spending time on the internet being passive aggressive trying to convince folks of their brilliance instead of exploring avenues to get those tunes out.  Pull it out lad
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Beepster
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 14:55:55
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Jeff Evans
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 15:40:01
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Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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jbow
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 16:39:25
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 HEY Jack.... assuming you are serious.... bottom line: we are all in this boat together. We all think we have talent, we all think we have to potential to make good music otherwise we wouldn't be here. Just start. If you are going to try mostly audio (playing guitar, singing, or any other instrument) buy a standalone recorder like the ZOOM R-8. Then record some stuff and see how it sounds coming INTO your ears as opposed to inside your head. If you are going to record strings, orchestral instruments, organ/piano, synths etc... get Music Creator or some other cheap DAW maybe R3aper <3=e>), a small keyboard MIDI controller, and the cheapest interface that has latency you can live with (although direct monitoring will solve the latency problem if you are doing one track at a time (I think)). Jump in there without spending a lot of money and see if this is what you imagine it is. If you like it and what you hear, then invest in good monitors, a full featured DAW, a good interface, and a better controller but be forewarned... it is like buying a boat to fix up, it never ends... at least not until you have a lot of experience and confidence. (A fixer up boat is referred to as a hole in the water you throw money into). So... just figure out... audio or MIDI. Get into it as cheaply as possible and record your ideas, even if you have to do a rough demo. Then you can pay someone who is proficient with audio or MIDI a nominal fee to rework it into something more than your basic idea. Then you can listen to it OUTSIDE of your head. Believe me, it makes a huge difference.... BUT, there is nothing wrong with you or your dreams. I think you are being a bit unrealistic but that, I think, is only because you don't yet know what all is involved as far as skill and equipment and experience. Only when you get a rough draft, so to speak, that you can listen to and ask others to listen to it (be careful who youu ask because some people will not listen to the music, they will hear the lack of polish and say things that might hurt you)... will you have any real idea of what you have and, what you need, the direction you need to take, and how long the road might be. Now... having said all that. If YOU love your music... that is enough reason, the only reason actually, for you to pursue it but if you do pursue it... pursue it wit a passion knowing that you will endure rejection and other hurtful things because your music will be a part of your heart. Learn to ignore the hurtful and mean spirited comments and embrace the constructive criticism. You'll need a thick skin and a true love for your music AND you will need to put a LOT of time (and a bit of money, it isn't nearly as expensive as it was even 10 years ago) into it. Research before you buy... read a lot, ask questions and explain that you are trying to learn. People here are helpful and there are other places that are helpful. I'd recommend you to read the "why do your recordings sound like a55" thread on the Cockos forum. It is good for a beginner and for anyone. I will try to insert a link, if it does not work I will PM it to you. Link: (it is a LONG thread but worth reading, it will save you time and money) http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?s=a14e2b4f475adf5a45876330893d7d4a&t=29283&page=18 Julien
post edited by jbow - 2012/12/28 16:45:53
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
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drewfx1
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 17:02:35
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Jeff Evans
You can sum all this up by reading some well known quotes. A good place to start might be talent quotes here:
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/talent
I don't know Jeff. I did very much enjoy some of those. But I found it a little strange to have Justin Bieber lyrics interspersed with quotes from literary giants and philosophers. But perhaps that's apropos here.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 17:19:54
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Hi Drewfx1. Yes I agree with you too but I think the way to approach quotes like that is that some will really resonate with you and others not so much so I tend to just focus on the ones that do.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Rain
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 17:54:23
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I constantly see incredibly gifted musicians working their butt off. To those people, talent is simply the prerequisite to dedicate their life to perfecting their art and working hard. They still practice and study and do warm ups and look for every opportunity to learn. That's what it is - dedication. And it encompasses everything - from their diet to their sleeping hours to exercising and so on. It's a commitment. No matter how easily things may seem to come, really talented artists don't just sit on their laurels and enjoy how easy it is to them. The minute you do that, it's no longer art, it becomes a routine, in which you execute a basic set of tasks deploying a well rehearsed set of skills. But if your real goal is to be a rock star, then of course, that's plenty enough.
post edited by Rain - 2012/12/28 17:57:05
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 17:54:28
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I think I might have an idea about what's going on.
The guy can hear the song in his head, complete with melody, harmonic & rhythmic structure.
What he can't do is relay all of this information at once - he lacks any way of communicating what's going on under his melody, a melody which might not seem so bizarre if we had something - like a chord sequence - with which the melody could relate to or fit with.
Many a classic melody line can easily sound like rambling nonsense without a harmonic backing to lock it into place ,so to speak.
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MattMVS7
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 23:17:45
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Finally, one last very important thing I would like to add in this topic because I really feel uncomfortable being perceived as a negative person when I'm not--I'm just interested in knowing about this musical ability of creating songs in your head.
I am not just talking about myself alone and saying that I am all great and better than anyone else here (but me having this ability of creating songs in my head has given me this idea of musical mental talent to talk about. Again, not just talking about myself--I'm also talking and asking about the musical minds of others with such musical ability as well because I am interested in knowing about such an ability and if one can actually consider this a talent. I am not this type of person at all to brag, have an ego, etc. I am just talking and asking about how talents work and just the idea of having the mental talent of creating songs in your head alone. Everyone here has taken my information the wrong way.
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yorolpal
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/28 23:44:55
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What would be the right way?
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spacey
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/29 00:19:03
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MattMVS7
Finally, one last very important thing I would like to add in this topic because I really feel uncomfortable being perceived as a negative person when I'm not--I'm just interested in knowing about this musical ability of creating songs in your head.
I am not just talking about myself alone and saying that I am all great and better than anyone else here (but me having this ability of creating songs in my head has given me this idea of musical mental talent to talk about. Again, not just talking about myself--I'm also talking and asking about the musical minds of others with such musical ability as well because I am interested in knowing about such an ability and if one can actually consider this a talent. I am not this type of person at all to brag, have an ego, etc. I am just talking and asking about how talents work and just the idea of having the mental talent of creating songs in your head alone. Everyone here has taken my information the wrong way.
It is natural for people to hear and see with their minds eye or ear, if you will. You may want to perceive it as a special ability and feel you have a special artistic talent- which if fine as you aren't hurting anybody. The reason you think everybody here has taken your information the wrong way is because you are failing to understand that the artistic talent is not what one may see or hear in their mind alone. For a person to be an artist they must be able to make the information materialize so others may see or hear it. You may have problems with reality but if you want to be considered an artist you best get real and present artistic creations for others to share because until then you are just all talk and that goes just so far. I find that you are no different than many that have posted in the forums at Cakewalk with nothing more than a good line. Only when one has something tangible for others to experience can they offer more than a conversation. and be considered to have some artistic talent. Talking won't get you there although you may become an interesting writter. Always a bright side I guess.
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bapu
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/29 00:53:42
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yorolpal
What would be the right way?
It's the right way or the highway olpal. 
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jbow
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/29 14:26:25
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Finally, one last very important thing I would like to add in this topic because I really feel uncomfortable being perceived as a negative person when I'm not--I'm just interested in knowing about this musical ability of creating songs in your head. I am not just talking about myself alone and saying that I am all great and better than anyone else here (but me having this ability of creating songs in my head has given me this idea of musical mental talent to talk about. Again, not just talking about myself--I'm also talking and asking about the musical minds of others with such musical ability as well because I am interested in knowing about such an ability and if one can actually consider this a talent. I am not this type of person at all to brag, have an ego, etc. I am just talking and asking about how talents work and just the idea of having the mental talent of creating songs in your head alone. Everyone here has taken my information the wrong way.
What you are talking about is possible. Beethoven became deaf and continued to compose and conduct after becoming deaf... so the music he was writing was completely in his head, he was educated enough in music theory to write down what he was hearing in his head... so yes indeed hearing a complete work in your head is not only possible but probable, you just have to learn a way to get it out. That is the hard part. I certainly don't mean to put you down but if you want to get the music out of your head and onto a medium where you and others can enjoy it... you have to choose a path and start down it. You CAN do it. In my previous post I recommended that you start slowly as far as spending so that you can get a feel for things before spending money on something you don't want or need. Julien
post edited by jbow - 2012/12/29 14:35:54
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
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Lynn
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/29 14:31:44
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You're getting pretty esoteric about merely having an imagination. Do you ever see pictures in your head and draw them? Do you write prose or poetry? Converting imagination into action is where you seem to be hung up. If you can get your ideas into a simple melody, many people here can write a chord progression just from that. If you can sense the timing of the notes and translate that, many people can write a rhythm. If you're only using Audacity to record your ideas, then get a CW product that you can build up your ideas slowly as they come. If you're so willing to spend time learning your video games, think of music as a mental game, and approach it that way. The creative process is supposed to be fun. MattMVS7
Finally, one last very important thing I would like to add in this topic because I really feel uncomfortable being perceived as a negative person when I'm not--I'm just interested in knowing about this musical ability of creating songs in your head.
I am not just talking about myself alone and saying that I am all great and better than anyone else here (but me having this ability of creating songs in my head has given me this idea of musical mental talent to talk about. Again, not just talking about myself--I'm also talking and asking about the musical minds of others with such musical ability as well because I am interested in knowing about such an ability and if one can actually consider this a talent. I am not this type of person at all to brag, have an ego, etc. I am just talking and asking about how talents work and just the idea of having the mental talent of creating songs in your head alone. Everyone here has taken my information the wrong way.
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bapu
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/29 14:32:18
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Matt, My son claims to hear full compositions in his head. He's a hairs breath away from being 38. He started taking guitar lessons at 10 years old. He never stopped learning from that day and continues to learn to this day. That is his reality. FYI: You can see the list of instruments he has become accomplished on HERE
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bapu
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/29 14:34:00
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bapu
Matt,
My son claims to hear full compositions in his head. He's a hairs breath away from being 38. He started taking guitar lessons at 10 years old. He never stopped learning from that day and continues to learn to this day. That is his reality.
FYI: You can see the list of instruments he has become accomplished on HERE
BTW, this is not a brag-fest. Just showing what it takes to get the stuff out of your head and into the world.
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bapu
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/29 14:38:04
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Matt,
It just occurred to me that what you are trying to define as "musical talent" at this stage for you should probably more appropriately be called "musical imagination".
You have imagination. Now you can either
a) develop the talent to get it out of your head
b) find someone who can best translate your imagination into reality (if you do not wish to spend the time to acquire the talent on your own)
c) just sit back and enjoy your imagination
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yorolpal
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Re:What is musical talent in this given situation?
2012/12/29 16:00:03
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