swamptooth
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/18 23:22:48
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To me this idea of daws is akin to a guitarist with a song in his head... Which do you choose: the gem, the lp, the strat, the jag, or the warlock! You know which one is going to fit. For me that's the same with software.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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Paul P
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/18 23:36:36
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Earwax
Luckily, because I use SCOPE, there is no DA/AD conversion involved. It's Softsynth-to-SCOPE DSP via ADAT (where I can add effects, "mash" things up, etc.) - back to Sonar via ADAT. Not necessarily ideal. It works, but direct real time recording of VST/VSTi output would be a superb option!
I've just realized that Sonar will not record anything from within. The only things that it records have to come from outside Sonar, be it MIDI from a midi instrument/controller or audio through an interface. Just like you can't record a softsynth's audio output, you can't record an audio track's output either, or a buss's output. So you can't record audio that has gone through an effect (print fx as brundlefly pointed out). It may not be such a simple matter to change Sonar if it's only it's front end that has the capability to record. Earwax, could using something like this VB-audio Virtual Cable (possibly several) not give you what you want without any hardware needing to be involved ? It may not 'look' elegant since audio goes out of Sonar and comes back in, but if you can set things up to your liking (and if latency is not a problem, which it might be) wouldn't that suffice ?
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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Earwax
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/18 23:54:21
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swamptooth
Cubase reason ableton and (occasionally) reaper though i hate its ui.
Hmmm... My daughter uses Reason. I'll have to check that out. Tried Cubase, wasn't fond of it. I've been meaning to try Reaper. This will push me over the edge. Thanks.
Pain - the absence of things hoped for, the evidence of catastrophes unforeseen.
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Earwax
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 00:04:18
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Paul P
Earwax
Luckily, because I use SCOPE, there is no DA/AD conversion involved. It's Softsynth-to-SCOPE DSP via ADAT (where I can add effects, "mash" things up, etc.) - back to Sonar via ADAT. Not necessarily ideal. It works, but direct real time recording of VST/VSTi output would be a superb option!
I've just realized that Sonar will not record anything from within. The only things that it records have to come from outside Sonar, be it MIDI from a midi instrument/controller or audio through an interface. Just like you can't record a softsynth's audio output, you can't record an audio track's output either, or a buss's output. So you can't record audio that has gone through an effect (print fx as brundlefly pointed out). It may not be such a simple matter to change Sonar if it's only it's front end that has the capability to record.
Earwax, could using something like this VB-audio Virtual Cable (possibly several) not give you what you want without any hardware needing to be involved ? It may not 'look' elegant since audio goes out of Sonar and comes back in, but if you can set things up to your liking (and if latency is not a problem, which it might be) wouldn't that suffice ?
Hey Paul P, I'll have to check into this. Thanks for the tip!
Pain - the absence of things hoped for, the evidence of catastrophes unforeseen.
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swamptooth
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 00:09:59
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In reason, in the rack, every instrument or audio track has an option to be used as a record source. click the box and you're good...  Then you'll need to add an audio track and select the source from input selector:  record enable the audio track and hit record. you can then split the clip up and take it into the nnxt for resampling.
post edited by swamptooth - 2015/02/19 00:31:00
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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harmony gardens
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 01:54:06
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gswitz
You can record anywhere you can put a VST using this.
http://www.meldaproduction.com/plugins/product.php?id=MRecorder
I've actually found that MRecorder is really handy for this task. One VSTi that comes to mind is Tassman 4. Maybe you have to be kind of a synth "mad scientist type" to use this, but for instance, there is a sequencer built in that allows you to reset the start point in real time that never comes out the same when you try to record it with midi and replay it. There are other patches in that great instrument that are only effective when played in real time, too. I wonder what sort of difficulties the Bakers would face to get this done. If it isn't too much trouble,,,,,, it would be a nice addition.
Sonar X3/ Sweetwater Creation Station Computer 16 gb/ Windows 7 64 bit/
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gswitz
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 07:23:31
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harmony gardens
I wonder what sort of difficulties the Bakers would face to get this done. If it isn't too much trouble,,,,,, it would be a nice addition.
I agree with Harmony Gardens here. It would be a nice addition, even if just because most other DAWs support it and it causes a lot of discussion in this forum around it. If Sonar could do it, we would not have to have this long discussion over and over. The biggest thing is to warn users when they accidentally configure and infinite loop and block sound output (our substitute some sound that tells the user why their audio is not being routed). That said, I already know I will benefit from the change.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Paul P
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 09:53:38
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Paul P
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 10:37:32
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I just communicated with Vincent Burel of the above software and he recommends using his Voicemeeter Audio Device Mixer for this application. To me, that looks like overkill for just a loopback...
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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Earwax
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 13:48:02
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swamptooth
In reason, in the rack, every instrument or audio track has an option to be used as a record source. click the box and you're good...
Then you'll need to add an audio track and select the source from input selector:
record enable the audio track and hit record. you can then split the clip up and take it into the nnxt for resampling.
Swamptooth, Many thanks for this! Appreciate it.
Pain - the absence of things hoped for, the evidence of catastrophes unforeseen.
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Earwax
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 13:50:32
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Paul P
I just communicated with Vincent Burel of the above software and he recommends using his
Voicemeeter Audio Device Mixer for this application.
To me, that looks like overkill for just a loopback...
Hi Paul P, After checking this out a bit, I think my current workaround allows me more flexibility. I'll keep looking at this as an option though. I appreciate you taking the time to check it out. Thanks!
Pain - the absence of things hoped for, the evidence of catastrophes unforeseen.
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mixmkr
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 13:58:26
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Personally, I'm giving up... if it becomes a feature, that'd be nice. I can physical patch things so that it is accomplished, as illustrated by my previous video link. Craig, said he did it [what I did] another way, but that involved another interface. Might as well have two computers then too. One for the VST/VSTi (to play) and the other as a "tape machine" running Sonar.
Lastly, it seems why this feature is desirable is something from another planet to others. Stating a case FOR was becoming more labor intensive than just doing the various other around work methods.
/frustrations ;-/
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mixmkr
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 14:01:38
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and lastly...if REASON can do this...wouldn't that illustrate it's a desirable feature to some? If it was silly, you'd think it would be omitted from other programs.
sorry to beat that horse...
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Earwax
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 14:32:02
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mixmkr
Personally, I'm giving up... if it becomes a feature, that'd be nice. I can physical patch things so that it is accomplished, as illustrated by my previous video link. Craig, said he did it [what I did] another way, but that involved another interface. Might as well have two computers then too. One for the VST/VSTi (to play) and the other as a "tape machine" running Sonar.
Lastly, it seems why this feature is desirable is something from another planet to others. Stating a case FOR was becoming more labor intensive than just doing the various other around work methods.
/frustrations ;-/
mixmkr
and lastly...if REASON can do this...wouldn't that illustrate it's a desirable feature to some? If it was silly, you'd think it would be omitted from other programs.
sorry to beat that horse...
 ! You just made my day! This is so true! But, different people have different perspectives, experiences, and perceptions. As was pointed out in another thread, many new users will, unfortunately, probably just automatically assume that Sonar can do this. I'd imagine many of them will be less than thrilled when they find out it can't. Especially if they are coming from software that DOES allow this. Oh well..........
Pain - the absence of things hoped for, the evidence of catastrophes unforeseen.
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blipofthefish
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 15:00:41
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Luckily i own Edison (from the FL Studio era i've had). Which is a very usable VSTi plugin to record these kind of sounds coming from a soft synth
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Anderton
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 16:39:28
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mixmkr
Lastly, it seems why this feature is desirable is something from another planet to others. Stating a case FOR was becoming more labor intensive than just doing the various other around work methods.
Well if it had started out with your example, then it would have made a lot more sense. I've said several times where I can see this feature would be useful; it was the "MIDI doesn't accurately reproduce the MIDI data that produced the sound in the first place" that got me scratching my head. (And BTW since you're into the video thang...it is possible to do what I described without two interfaces. Hypercam can record the output from SONAR, but then you can't use ASIO - you have to use some kind of Windows Audio driver. Not an ideal solution AFAIC.)
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mixmkr
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 17:27:30
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Craig...you're a God send to these forums...Like Noel, Andrew...etc. So I just want to make that clear.
My screen capture can also do audio, but that leaves Sonar out of the picture with multitracking. I'm not really that deep into LOTS of virtual all at once... but I think you can "estimate" what level I'm at, I'd suspect. Just a guitar player, sticking his nose around in other areas.... ;-)
In all honesty...I think the dual computer setup really is probably the best! Spread the "load" so to speak. In the scope of things, that's not really expensive nowadays. Would simplify a lot of things as well.
Thx again Craig for your patience.
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dubdisciple
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 17:35:59
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blipofthefish
Luckily i own Edison (from the FL Studio era i've had). Which is a very usable VSTi plugin to record these kind of sounds coming from a soft synth
You just gave me an idea
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Earwax
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 20:02:59
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Anderton
mixmkr
Lastly, it seems why this feature is desirable is something from another planet to others. Stating a case FOR was becoming more labor intensive than just doing the various other around work methods.
...it was the "MIDI doesn't accurately reproduce the MIDI data that produced the sound in the first place" that got me scratching my head.
Hmmmm... Not what I said, but, okay.... 
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AndyDavis
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 20:31:15
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I have wished for this feature to help me keep from fiddling with MIDI. I'm an inveterate fiddler. Recording an instrument as an audio performance makes me commit. If the performance needs improvement, then I need to play it better.
To be fair, I can accomplish what I want with bounce, but I would rather have no window for fiddling open.
FWIW - Studio One can do this as well.
Don't ask the question if you cannot live with the answer.
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konradh
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/19 21:59:14
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I agree with the OP, though, that it should be possible to record the audio in real time just like an external synth. There have been several times when I have needed to do that. Even if bounce is better in most cases, a simple audio record should be possible. A send to another track (not allowed) or some kind of virtual patch cable would solve it.
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/20 02:12:50
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mixmkr
Craig...you're a God send to these forums...Like Noel, Andrew...etc. So I just want to make that clear.
My screen capture can also do audio, but that leaves Sonar out of the picture with multitracking. I'm not really that deep into LOTS of virtual all at once... but I think you can "estimate" what level I'm at, I'd suspect. Just a guitar player, sticking his nose around in other areas.... ;-)
In all honesty...I think the dual computer setup really is probably the best! Spread the "load" so to speak. In the scope of things, that's not really expensive nowadays. Would simplify a lot of things as well.
Thx again Craig for your patience.
Not sure what your set up is but an external mixer is ideal. When I'm making videos I rarely capture Sonar output and need separate record at the same time but when I do I just run what I don't want recorded to a separate stereo buss, mute it from the main two buss, and then monitor the stereo buss which I also feed the main buss into. I then record the main two buss. That way I can hear everything but only record what I want to. Of course buying a mixer might be a bit extreme if you are only making the odd video but a great investment if you are making them regularly. If you've already got one, even better.
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gswitz
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/20 06:06:39
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@FBB - If you own Sonar, you shouldn't need to buy a Mixer to make a video. It's just more of a case for why Sonar should enable output recording. If output recording never enables input echo, it would never be a feedback issue. I've got my own way to do this with RME DigiCheck, but it shouldn't be necessary to use a work-around. That's the point of this thread. I feel like this is one of those 'it's a bug/it's not a bug' threads. If it were a car without a major feature like a stereo, you could argue about whether a car should have a stereo or just say, 'yeah, it would be better with a stereo'. All the other cars have stereos, even the open-source ones. I'm in the 'yeah, it would be better with a stereo' camp. For those that aren't, ask yourself why you aren't. You can tell yourself... - that it's more important to have motorized seats before the stereo if you want, but to me that's a silly argument. It should have a stereo and motorized seats.
- that stereos are dangerous in the hands of amateurs - whatever.
The amusing thing to me is that one of the popular reasons people want this feature is to be able to make good videos of what they are doing with the Cakewalk software and have them sound professional when they are done. Why wouldn't Cakewalk want that?
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/20 08:36:40
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You don't *have* to buy a mixer to make a video it just makes capturing output and recording at the same time much easier. Not only in Sonar but also Camtasia.
I'm not arguing the merits of it, just offering advice to whoever it was querying about video.
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Anderton
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/20 09:11:55
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mixmkr
Craig...you're a God send to these forums...Like Noel, Andrew...etc. So I just want to make that clear.
My screen capture can also do audio, but that leaves Sonar out of the picture with multitracking. I'm not really that deep into LOTS of virtual all at once... but I think you can "estimate" what level I'm at, I'd suspect. Just a guitar player, sticking his nose around in other areas.... ;-) Beware! That's how I started. Then I got a better camera. Then a tripod. Then I became addicted... In all honesty...I think the dual computer setup really is probably the best! Spread the "load" so to speak. In the scope of things, that's not really expensive nowadays. Would simplify a lot of things as well. I actually just use two interfaces on the same computer, but the only thing that allows me to do that is having some stuff run on WDM and some on ASIO. I wrote up the procedure for how to patch/set parameters for everything because it was fairly complex to set up Vegas, SONAR, the interfaces, and the internal audio...I'd keep forgetting some crucial parameter. I'm sure I have it around somewhere, I'll see if I can find it and PM it to you. It might save you some time.
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harmony gardens
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/20 10:21:02
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Anderton
I've said several times where I can see this feature would be useful
I noticed that,,, how about one more for the road?? lol We have a lot of great workaround advice in this thread,,,, but FWIW, I'm becoming more convinced this is something that would a great addition. That's why I voted for it. I'm not going to pout if it doesn't get done, because of the workarounds, but there isn't much going forward that Sonar doesn't do,,, this seems like a pretty basic feature request. I guess I don't want to push this too hard if it requires a total rewrite of the code, but as you have said several times, this would be useful,,,,,,, so why not???? 
Sonar X3/ Sweetwater Creation Station Computer 16 gb/ Windows 7 64 bit/
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codamedia
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/20 19:46:43
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gswitz
harmony gardens
I wonder what sort of difficulties the Bakers would face to get this done. If it isn't too much trouble,,,,,, it would be a nice addition.
The biggest thing is to warn users when they accidentally configure and infinite loop and block sound output (our substitute some sound that tells the user why their audio is not being routed).
I'm pretty sure this is the primary reason many DAW's do not implement this feature. Nobody wants the responsibility of blowing speakers and eardrums when somebody that doesn't know what they are doing gets in over their head.
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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Paul P
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/20 20:05:18
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codamedia
Nobody wants the responsibility of blowing speakers and eardrums when somebody that doesn't know what they are doing gets in over their head.
I agree, though not all companies are as concerned. This line off the current Tascam UH-7000 (400$ interface) webpage always raises my eyebrows (it's in red on the page) : " Turning LINK LINE OFF with the button* will cause the signal level at the ANALOG (BALANCED) OUTPUT L/R connectors to revert to full line level loudness." [* a big tempting button on the front panel just labeled LINK LINE] What if you haven't visited the webpage ? What if you have kids ? Maybe Cakewalk could just include a similar line on the Sonar help page.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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swamptooth
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/20 20:34:52
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codamedia
gswitz
harmony gardens
I wonder what sort of difficulties the Bakers would face to get this done. If it isn't too much trouble,,,,,, it would be a nice addition.
The biggest thing is to warn users when they accidentally configure and infinite loop and block sound output (our substitute some sound that tells the user why their audio is not being routed).
I'm pretty sure this is the primary reason many DAW's do not implement this feature. Nobody wants the responsibility of blowing speakers and eardrums when somebody that doesn't know what they are doing gets in over their head.
If nobody wants the responsibility then why do most daws offer it?
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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Earwax
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Re: X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?
2015/02/20 21:00:38
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swamptooth
codamedia
gswitz
harmony gardens
I wonder what sort of difficulties the Bakers would face to get this done. If it isn't too much trouble,,,,,, it would be a nice addition.
The biggest thing is to warn users when they accidentally configure and infinite loop and block sound output (our substitute some sound that tells the user why their audio is not being routed).
I'm pretty sure this is the primary reason many DAW's do not implement this feature. Nobody wants the responsibility of blowing speakers and eardrums when somebody that doesn't know what they are doing gets in over their head.
If nobody wants the responsibility then why do most daws offer it?
Because it's common sense?
Pain - the absence of things hoped for, the evidence of catastrophes unforeseen.
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