X3 Producer: Why is it so difficult to record audio from a soft synth?

If the midi controlling the synth is already recorded you can freeze the synth and get audio.
You can bounce out the synth to your desktop (or wherever) and drag it back in Sonar. It takes seconds to do that - I did it loads of times yesterday.
I'm not 100% on this one but I seem to remember a video showing a "normal time" bounce to an external location that involved actually playing the synth in real time.

Grum.

It's different in DAW land, you don't route the output and record enable, etc. You bounce instead.
Once I'm satisfied with a soft synth track (automation, notes, velocity, sound, etc) I bounce it so I can hear how it sits in the mix and apply audio effects.
It's easy to do the conversion:
1. Select the instrument track or the midi and synth tracks.
2. Set your from and to selection points.
3. Bounce to tracks.
Done.
The whole process usually takes less than 30 seconds if you use fast bounce. Once you've got the levels set on the synth track, doing another bounce to fix something is just as fast and doesn't mess up your mix.
I've tried but don't really care for using FX on instrument tracks but that's just personal preference.
 

The Grumbleweed
bounce out the synth to your desktop (or wherever) and drag it back in Sonar.

I'm not sure what you mean by "bounce to desktop", but I played around with the bounce to tracks method more and finally got it to work. I discovered these facts:
 
1) You have to uncheck Fast Bounce (checked by default), and check Audible Bounce.  This is not mentioned in the 9-step procedure in the help file.
2) Presets don't fully "preset". They save some settings but not others. Notably, the Destination track and the Source Buses/Tracks are not part of the preset, and your settings are not remembered, even between sequential uses in the same project. They have to be manually set every time.
 
I still don't understand why the direct recording of the synth is not allowed.
 

Recording from a synth would need to be a real-time process. Bouncing is much faster, and Fast Bounce is the preferred option, especially with X3. Not quite sure why it didn't work for you, although the most common problem people experience is not selecting the instrument's audio track and MIDI track. Don't know if you're using a simple instrument track, but I prefer a full-blown instrument setup with folder, audio, and MIDI tracks.
 
Regarding
 

Presets don't fully 'preset'. They save some settings but not others. Notably, the Destination track and the Source Buses/Tracks are not part of the preset, and your settings are not remembered, even between sequential uses in the same project. They have to be manually set every time.

 
For what sounds like your intended application most people would use Track Freeze. Bouncing is a less common event that's usually applied to a single track or group of tracks, and generally not done consecutively. Most of the time you don't need to change more than one or two defaults (if that).
 
Hope this helps.

rcklln
Recently I froze a Rapture synth track but the resulting stereo audio track didn't include the panning effect.

Right-click the freeze button and make sure "Track FX" is checked.

timg11
…I still don't understand why the direct recording of the synth is not allowed.

Yes, it is extremely frustrating. It seems counterintuitive that you can’t do this. Craig, is this a hardware and/or software limitation? Is there any DAW that allows you to do this? It would seem to me that, if I can sit down at a keyboard controller and play a solo piano piece through Ivory, I should be able to record what I’m hearing, as I hear it, if I so choose. Is this physically impossible for any DAW to do, or is it a Sonar limitation? If you can play and record VST effects “live”, why can’t you play and record VSTi’s “live”?

I still don't understand why you would want to. Freeze or bounce is much quicker.

Oh and yeah Ableton does allow this, but I'm pretty sure that's because it lacks dedicated bounce to tracks functions and it used to be the only way to "bounce" things like Melodyne edits. I much, much prefer the Sonar set of options here, personally.

Fair enough, I haven't encountered those yet. Sonar has been great at capturing anything I do with midi and automation.

brundlefly

Earwax
If you can play and record VST effects “live”, why can’t you play and record VSTi’s “live”?

Actually, you can't print FX in real time, either. Both are technically quite feasible, just not implemented in SONAR. My understanding is that Ableton and Pro Tools allow it.

You're right. I wasn't thinking of Sonar when I typed that. Sorry for the confusion.

Earwax

timg11
…I still don't understand why the direct recording of the synth is not allowed.

Yes, it is extremely frustrating. It seems counterintuitive that you can’t do this. Craig, is this a hardware and/or software limitation? Is there any DAW that allows you to do this? It would seem to me that, if I can sit down at a keyboard controller and play a solo piano piece through Ivory, I should be able to record what I’m hearing, as I hear it, if I so choose. Is this physically impossible for any DAW to do, or is it a Sonar limitation? If you can play and record VST effects “live”, why can’t you play and record VSTi’s “live”?

One reason it is not an issue for most of us is that we record the MIDI. That is the important part. The audio is only used for mixing down to a stereo file for distribution. The MIDI is far and away the part that is the whole point of Sonar. Keep in mind that Sonar has roots in MIDI sequencing not audio. Its this quality that most of us appreciate. Now the audio is very much an important aspect for many but Sonar has not forgotten its roots.
 
 This is one reason that many of us don't understand the need to record audio from a soft synth. To us we can have audio at any time by playing back the MIDI. Some of us use hardware synths along side soft synths. If we want to record the audio from those hardware synths we can in real time.
 
The only reason to be able to record audio from a soft synth in real time is to record a performance in real time that can't be done with the MIDI alone due to randomness of the synth's output. Outside of that there is no good reason for recording the output of a soft synth. Even then is a weak argument. Because if randomness is important which "run" of random output is the "right" one? The same thing can just as easily obtained with a bounce or freeze.      

John

Earwax

timg11
…I still don't understand why the direct recording of the synth is not allowed.

Yes, it is extremely frustrating. It seems counterintuitive that you can’t do this. Craig, is this a hardware and/or software limitation? Is there any DAW that allows you to do this? It would seem to me that, if I can sit down at a keyboard controller and play a solo piano piece through Ivory, I should be able to record what I’m hearing, as I hear it, if I so choose. Is this physically impossible for any DAW to do, or is it a Sonar limitation? If you can play and record VST effects “live”, why can’t you play and record VSTi’s “live”?

One reason it is not an issue for most of us is that we record the MIDI. That is the important part. The audio is only used for mixing down to a stereo file for distribution. The MIDI is far and away the part that is the whole point of Sonar. Keep in mind that Sonar has roots in MIDI sequencing not audio. Its this quality that most of us appreciate. Now the audio is very much an important aspect for many but Sonar has not forgotten its roots.

As I mentioned in my response, some want to primarily record a MIDI performance, and some want to record an audio performance. I’m familiar with the pros and cons of sequencers/sequencing. I’ve owned a couple of the hardware versions myself, long before Cakewalk’s Pro Audio software.

John

Earwax

timg11
…I still don't understand why the direct recording of the synth is not allowed.

 This is one reason that many of us don't understand the need to record audio from a soft synth. To us we can have audio at any time by playing back the MIDI. Some of us use hardware synths along side soft synths. If we want to record the audio from those hardware synths we can in real time.

I am one of the “some of us…” using hardware and software synths. If MIDI is the ultimate recording medium, why not record your hardware synth tracks as MIDI, and use the MIDI tracks to playback and record the hardware synths' audio? That would give you the same “ultimate flexibility” you claim to have in recording a softsynth’s MIDI, and not audio. I know why I would prefer not to do it that way, but that’s another issue.

John

Earwax

timg11
…I still don't understand why the direct recording of the synth is not allowed.

The only reason to be able to record audio from a soft synth in real time is to record a performance in real time that can't be done with the MIDI alone due to randomness of the synth's output. Outside of that there is no good reason for recording the output of a soft synth. Even then is a weak argument. Because if randomness is important which "run" of random output is the "right" one? The same thing can just as easily obtained with a bounce or freeze.      

See, when people make arguments and statements like this, the points of discussion become moot. So, basically what you are saying is, there is NO good reason to want to record a synth in real time, right? Anyone that would want to do that is purely misinformed, or worse. Geez.. I understand why people want to record MIDI performances. Sometimes, I do too. It’s too bad you have no concept of why anyone would want to record a softsynth audio performance.
 
Oh well….
 

Paul P
 
You can stick a VST recorder into an effects bin anywhere you want.
 
Melda offers a free one MRecorder.  Probably not ideal, but maybe sufficient ?
 

Thanks for the suggestion, Paul P. There are other software utilities out there that offer similar functionality - notably some of the stuff offered by Hermann Seib. Workarounds for sure, but possibly useable.
Again, thanks for the suggestion. I've noticed some of your posts in the Cakewalk instruments section. Seems we share a love of synths!

John
 
The only reason to be able to record audio from a soft synth in real time is to record a performance in real time that can't be done with the MIDI alone due to randomness of the synth's output. Outside of that there is no good reason for recording the output of a soft synth. Even then is a weak argument. Because if randomness is important which "run" of random output is the "right" one? The same thing can just as easily obtained with a bounce or freeze.      

This is the reason for having this option. Cakewalk provides VSTi with random generators but not the possibility of printing the audio without third party plugins or hardware routing. The one that is the right "one" is the one I'm performing "now". There is nothing weak about that.



 

rabeach

John
 
The only reason to be able to record audio from a soft synth in real time is to record a performance in real time that can't be done with the MIDI alone due to randomness of the synth's output. Outside of that there is no good reason for recording the output of a soft synth. Even then is a weak argument. Because if randomness is important which "run" of random output is the "right" one? The same thing can just as easily obtained with a bounce or freeze.      

This is the reason for having this option. Cakewalk provides VSTi with random generators but not the possibility of printing the audio without third party plugins or hardware routing. The one that is the right "one" is the one I'm performing "now". There is nothing weak about that.



 

We will have to disagree on this one. If its random you can't know if another go wont be the perfect one or not. If it is just a case of the "first one" then freeze it just once. 

It's not hard to do, that is to record your VSTi in real time, you just have to be prepared to deal with the issues that it brings up. Send your monitor source out of your audio device and loop it back onto another track making sure that that track is out of your monitor path. Voila, you have a live recoding of your performance. If you are going to add further material you'll have to nudge the recorded VSTi audio tracks.