Hey guys!

I've been playing with Sonar 7 a little throught the weekend and all afternoon today. I must say this is a very cool release and has a lot of nice features but, as expected from a x.0 release, there are some issues I've encountered during my testing of Sonar 7. I will outline the problems I've found so far but please feel free to post your findings as well so that others can test and try to replicate these bugs if possible. The more testing we do the more stable Sonar 7 will be. So this is our chance to improve it. Here I go with my findings:


1- The Step Sequencer: As we all know, this is one of the key features of Sonar 7 and specially for those who work mostly with MIDI. It is very nice indeed but it's also a major CPU hog (or is it my system?). Just having one instance of SS was enough to slow down my system. Whenever I tried to input notes in the Step Sequencer it would take a few ms to show the changes. Playback is not very smooth either, specially when first hitting the Play button. Have you guys noticed this?

2 - LP-64 Mastering EQ and Multiband Compressor: These two are a very nice addition to the Cakewalk plugin library but, again, major CPU hogs. It seems Cakewalk is developing for Quad-Core systems nowadays . But seriously, I really liked the sound of these two plugs but I'm currently unable to use them . Cakewalk knows and has confrimed this issue so I hope it gets fixed soon.

3 - Hardware Inserts: NICE!!! This is something I didn't expect to see but I'm glad it came out in S7. I was really enjoying hearing my HW FX unit through a vocal track and messing with different settings. I even froze my tracks (in real time of course) and was very please with the results. It's very easy to set up, so easy that it makes me wonder what took them so long to implement this. The only problem I encountered was the Audio Engine Stopped message while switching from one computer to the other via a KVM switch while audio was playing back. Actually, there was something else...but I suspect it was my HW-FX unit's fault. Everytime I turned the input knob on my HW unit the input meter on it would jump to the clipping point. I have to admit that I haven't use this in a WHILE so it was probably due to dirty pots. I'll experiment with this some more.

4 - MIDI Tools: Another nice feature of Sonar 7. I was able to very quickly customize the new Smart MIDI tools to do what I wanted it to do because I only spent time customizing one . With all the cool features I added to that one button I had almost everything covered. I could probably figure out a way to use just ONE tool for everything, and I will. There are some crazy drawings features that were added but I need to experiment more with them. For example, there's an option where you can paint notes/controllers linearly. The only problem with it is that it makes strange noises and might even make your audio engine stop if you draw notes really fast.

5 - Sidechaining: A much needed feature, for me at least. I found it to be really cool and easy to setup. Cakewalk just knows how to make things....well....a Cakewalk. I tried it on a couple of tracks and it was very nice. The only thing bad I have to say about this new feature is that it might've introduced a new bug. This bug was first reported by Eric Hansen (a.k.a. Hansenhaus) and you can find all the details in this thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1163503 It is a reproducible one too.

6 - V-Vocal Pitch to MIDI: Great idea, but it's still not there yet. I tried it with different vocal and instrumental tracks and it just didn't do a good job translating any of them. The results were mediocre at best. The MIDI file would come out sounding different on a lot of parts. It also seemed like it was not able to translate the timing all that well either. For example, I created a V-Vocal clip on an entire ~2 min project of a cello line and converted it to MIDI notes. Somewhere along the song the MIDI file and the source track would be completely out of sync with each other. It was like the MIDI file had shrunk. Again, a nice idea but still needs a lot of work.

7 - ACT: Yeah, I know. This is not new to most of you guys but it is to me . This is not as intuitive as the other features of Sonar but it wasn't to bad to figure out either. Once you start playing with it you get the hang of how eveything works. The key point is not confusing MIDI Learn with ACT Learn which are two different things. Once you get that, everything becomes clearer. The only caveat I'm having with this is due to learning how to program things on my MIDI controller. I have figured out how to program everything but the buttons of my MIDI controller. I will mess with this some more. I really like this feature though....very awesome!

8 - Audio Snap: Haven't had time to mess with this one yet.

9 - Other Stuff: I loved ALL the new Synths that came with Sonar 7. I was not very impressed with Boost 11 though, but maybe I'll like it later on....I don't know. There are some little features that didn't make the Sonar 7 new feature list but one of my favorites is the ability to convert an audio track to Stereo or Mono just by right-clicking and selecting the option from the list (depending on the track of course). It makes things so much easier than having to go into the Bounce to Track menu. There are other ones but I can't remember them now. There's still a lot of playing pending with Sonar 7 as this is only the first week.



Anyways, I hope you guys can find other stuff that needs fixing in the upcoming patches. Please try replicating or trying the things I've done as to compare results. It would make things much easier to find the culprits for all of us.


Take care guys!

thanks for this! How do you find the audio engine efficiency and reliability in general? Did you upgrade from 5 or 6? I don't have sonar7 yet so i can't help with verifying any of the issues.

Intel Core2Duo e8400
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WinXP SP2
EMU 1820m

DFHS, BFD, Battery3, Amplitube2, GuitarRig2, Kontakt2, Ampeg SVX, Line6 PodXT, Stormdrum

Nice initial review! Just wondering what computer hardware you are using with Sonar 7?

Equipment: Sonar 7PE, Project 5.2, M-Audio Axiom 49, Roland XP-50, Tascam US-428, Dimension Pro, SoundForge 9, Behringer UB-1204FX-Pro

NEW ALBUM!
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Jose,

Great review! Thanks for taking the time to do this this time around.

www.soundclick.com/lionsound

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ORIGINAL: Duojet

thanks for this! How do you find the audio engine efficiency and reliability in general? Did you upgrade from 5 or 6? I don't have sonar7 yet so i can't help with verifying any of the issues.

So far the audio engine has been very smooth. I come from V5 and all the projects that were created there play fine in Sonar 7. The only problem I've had, as far as smooth playback goes, is when using the Step Sequencer and the new Mastering plugs. Using the SS has caused me Dropouts while changing a band in both Mastering plugins produces glitches in the audio. The latter has been confirmed by forum member Eratu as well as Cakewalk, so they know about this one.

Like I said, these two plugs sound really good but they're not usable right now because you kinda have to guess how things will sound. You move a band, it starts glitching and then stops when you release it so you don't get to hear how moving the band affects the sound until you stop moving it, and THEN you hear the change (but not what happens while you move 'em). I hope that makes sense. Peace!

ORIGINAL: saporta

Nice initial review! Just wondering what computer hardware you are using with Sonar 7?

Sure, my bad. Read my signature.

Intel Q9400 2.66 GHz
8 GB of RAM @ 800 Mhz
ATI Radeon HD 3650
Windows 7 Professional x64
Sonar PE 8.5.2 x64
RME FireFace 400
Frontier Design Alpha Track
Studio Logic VMK-188 Plus

THANK YOU!!!

ORIGINAL: LionSound

Jose,

Great review! Thanks for taking the time to do this this time around.

Yeah, you got it . It has been real fun going through all these features and I still have more ground to cover. The change from S5 to S7 is amazing! I don't know what else I could want after it becomes more stable in version 7.2. Then again, there's always something right? .

Take care Lion!

I experienced two minor bugs that may be related to the fact that I went from version 5 to version 7, or possibly that I upgraded from Power Studio to Producer.

1. The Sonitus plugs were not updated, so that sidechaining didn't work with the gate and compressor. Had to delete them and re-install. This is because the previous Sonitus DLLs inexplicably had higher version numbers than the ones that shipped with S7.

2. Clicking on the "Manual" button on the VC-64 does not bring up the documentation. It is trying to open a nonexistent registry key, perhaps one that would have been created already had I previously installed version 6.

All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to.

My Stuff

Hey bitflipper,

I also upgraded from V5 (which I still have installed) to V7 but I didn't encounter any of these bugs. I think the problem for you was installing S7 on top of S5 which Cakewalk recommends against. The way I did it when installing S7 was to slightly modify the default install path by adding a " 7" at the end to the "Cakewalk" folder. So I ended up with old regular "Cakewalk" folder plus a new "Cakewalk 7" one. Then I went into the plugin manager and included the old VST plugin folder path so that my non-Cakewalk plugins would be added to the list of S7 plugs. Sonar did a great job selecting the plugins as it didn't repeat the ones that were already listed, it just included the ones that were different.

The VC-64 does open the manual when I press the "Manual" button to bring it up by the way.

Sorry about this inconvenience.

Take care!

Nice work, Jose. Thank you.

Nice review.

I have not been able to use S7 for mixing because of a major problem I'm having with soloing busses. You can read about it here:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1163503

Other users are experiencing the same problem but have been able to get around it sometimes. Unfortunately I cannot. I brought it to Noel's attention but he could not reproduce it on his end. I don't know if he has found anything since. Hopefully he has.

I found the LP 64 Mastering EQ annoying to work with. Maybe it's just my system but when I adjust the EQ the sound getts stuttery and fades out until I stop adjusting it. Then it can take a second to get back to normal once I stop adjutsing it. Does that happen to anyone else?

I found Boost 11 pretty cool. I liked the real time display of the limiting but not entirely sold on it.

Bit Flipper, good find on the Sonitus plugs missing the side chain. I'm sure that will drive a few people nuts. I installed over 5 and 6 so I'm going to check mine right now.

I havent tried a lot of the new MIDI features yet. I don't do MIDI programming on a regular basis but when I finally do I will explore the new stuff.

Eric

Eric Hansen
My Website
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I think the problem for you was installing S7 on top of S5 which Cakewalk recommends against.

Actually, what they recommend against is installing the new rev in the same directory as the old one. The readme does not recommend uninstalling the old version first. It indicates that S7 would install in a new directory by default, allowing S5 and S7 to coexist. And in fact, SONAR did install in a new directory. But not the Sonitus plugins, unfortunately, which were/are in c:\program files\cakewalk\shared plugins.

This would normally not be an issue, but curiously the old plugs had an internal version number of 13.5.0.267 while the new ones were version 3.3.3.163. Most installers will not overwrite a newer version with an older one, so the files were never replaced.

The VC-64 "Manual" button issue does not apply to most installations for some reason. But for me it definitely does not work, and when I monitor it with regmon, it indicates that the VC-64 was attempting to read a registry key (HKLM\Software\Kjaerhus Audio\VC-64) that does not exist. If you wouldn't mind, Jose, could you check your system and see if that key exists?

All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to.

My Stuff

ORIGINAL: Jose7822

The Step Sequencer: As we all know, this is one of the key features of Sonar 7 and specially for those who work mostly with MIDI. It is very nice indeed but it's also a major CPU hog (or is it my system?). Just having one instance of SS was enough to slow down my system. Whenever I tried to input notes in the Step Sequencer it would take a few ms to show the changes. Playback is not very smooth either, specially when first hitting the Play button. Have you guys noticed this?

This is troubling to hear. Is anyone else experiencing this type of behavior with the Step Sequencer?

Cakewalk Forums - A Great Learning Resource For All Things Cakewalk!

Bitflipper, Sonitus plugins at version 13 smell a lot like an old versioning (13.x is maybe SONAR 4.x)?

If so, users that have or had SONAR 4 installed won't see their Sonitus plugins updated correctly unless they delete or remove them prior to S7 installing.

That could be quite a serious issue, hope some baker chime in and note down the problem.

- Mario

Mario Bianchi
---------------
Intel Q9550 Quad Core, Abit IP35 Pro XE M'Board
2x2GB RAM, XFX GeForce 8500GT, 2x500GB Seagate SATA2 HD 7200.11
Terratec EWS88MT, ESI Near 5 Monitoring Speakers
Yamaha SY-85 Master keyboard, Roland JV-1080 Rack mod

ORIGINAL: bitflipper

1. The Sonitus plugs were not updated, so that sidechaining didn't work with the gate and compressor. Had to delete them and re-install. This is because the previous Sonitus DLLs inexplicably had higher version numbers than the ones that shipped with S7.

This is quite a scary one for me.
I haven't checked nor have I tried to use the sidechaining yet...
I'll check what happened to me, upgrading from 6, when I get home.

I suppose a re-install would be required and the Sonitus loaded to a seperate folder?

One of My Bands on last.fm
My Past My Videos

No - a re-install to a new spot isn't required. You can use regsrv to update the correct drivers. Check Noel's response in Bitflipper's original thread.

Ciao,

Q.

ORIGINAL: Twigman
I suppose a re-install would be required and the Sonitus loaded to a seperate folder?

Just move away (or delete) all files which name begins with Sonitus in the "Cakewalk\Shared Plugins" folder and repeat Sonitus install.

That should do, without having to reinstall the whole app.
Mario

Mario Bianchi
---------------
Intel Q9550 Quad Core, Abit IP35 Pro XE M'Board
2x2GB RAM, XFX GeForce 8500GT, 2x500GB Seagate SATA2 HD 7200.11
Terratec EWS88MT, ESI Near 5 Monitoring Speakers
Yamaha SY-85 Master keyboard, Roland JV-1080 Rack mod

Hey Jose,

Great comments! I agree with just about everything, but haven't confirmed the sidechaining/bus bug (no time to do it yet) and V-Vocal pitch to midi yet. I will admit I was disappointed in the new LP mastering plugins -- not the sound quality, as I mentioned in another thread-- but the fact that they currently only work in one state. Any updates to parameters causes a state reset which causes gapping/glitches. So basically it is useless to try to automate them. And very difficult to really use them like I use other plugins, tweaking and listening for the subtle differences as I change parameters... the gapping/glitching really takes away from the experience. But Cakewalk said they will fix all that, hopefully soon. For some people who don't mind the gapping, they'll be great now.

I also noticed some strange, non-reproducible behavior with the step sequencer, weird lagging, inconsistent glitching, timing issues, but I believe it may have been caused by some third-party plugins. Not sure yet. When I created a NEW project and used only Cakewalk plugins it worked fine, as advertised. So perhaps with some more testing with third-party plugins we can find some areas where Cakewalk can improve its performance, or maybe it's 100% a third-party plugin fault. Or maybe there is some bug in there...

I have also been testing things out quite a bit in Sonar x64 under Vista x64. And while I did find that there were improvements in performance for me (thanks, Cakewalk!) it still is not quite up to XP32's level of stability, performance and just overall usability. BitBridge HAS been improved somewhat (thanks, Cakewalk!) but further testing is needed. I also might have discovered a bug with PSYN II in Sonar 7 x64.... something really strange was happening to me last night where some patches were not sounding correct -- they sounded different under x64 than in normal Sonar x86 in Win XP. This was very disconcerting and at this point I have NO idea what the cause the problem is... could be anything. But I'm not happy about it. Anyway, just another little negative about moving to Vista x64... unpleasant surprises that are starting to stack up and I'm getting to the point of taking a LONG break from testing and pushing Vista x64 and Sonar x64. At least untul SP1 is released and some patches to Sonar 7 and some driver updates. More and more I am coming to the strong conclusion that it just is not ready for prime-time, in my opinion. You know I've spent a lot of effort on it. Trying to get really great low-latency performance out of Vista x64 is like pulling teeth at this point. Set the latency really high (which is not my way of working) and it is passably usable.

But other than that, I've been very impressed with Sonar 7 so far! On the Windows XP "normal" side of things, it has been performing really well, and feels solid and consistent already. An impressive ".0" release in my opinion. The MIDI tools are excellent. I had forgotten how nice it was to have multiple controller lanes in the PRV. I didn't realize how much I missed this from Cubase. The customizable PRV tool is really a great idea, and I haven't figured out yet how I want to take advantage of what it can do. It is Sonar's new "power feature" in my opinion. Every once in a while a feature comes a long that all other DAWs will emulate. This is one of them. I also like the microscope MIDI tool, colored velocity indicators, MIDI metering, note-overlap indication, and another totally obvious and simple feature -- moving controller data with notes! Good grief, how obvious is that? Finally! So Sonar makes all that MIDI editing work much better than before, and I really feel I can get into MIDI just as well I did back in my Cubase days, and then some. Any minor, nagging regrets I may have had switching back to Sonar have been eliminated in this area. I still miss a few little things that Cubase had in terms of MIDI editing (like some simple tools to draw controller values) but I haven't fully explored the customizations I can do yet, and I think it more than compensates for that... there is a draw mode feature so I have to learn more what it can do... it might even be more powerful since it can generate controller values according to the grid spacing, I believe. Anyway, for all that MIDI stuff by itself, this upgrade has been worth it to me.

FETIDUS - Because Every Zombie Matters.

Hi Jose,

Thanks for the review.

I'm particularly interested in the CPU hog comments.
Can you post the specs of the machine you ran it on?
That way we can get an idea of how it would run on
other machines.

Thanks!

Eric.

ORIGINAL: bitflipper

I think the problem for you was installing S7 on top of S5 which Cakewalk recommends against.

Actually, what they recommend against is installing the new rev in the same directory as the old one. The readme does not recommend uninstalling the old version first. It indicates that S7 would install in a new directory by default, allowing S5 and S7 to coexist. And in fact, SONAR did install in a new directory. But not the Sonitus plugins, unfortunately, which were/are in c:\program files\cakewalk\shared plugins.

This would normally not be an issue, but curiously the old plugs had an internal version number of 13.5.0.267 while the new ones were version 3.3.3.163. Most installers will not overwrite a newer version with an older one, so the files were never replaced.

The VC-64 "Manual" button issue does not apply to most installations for some reason. But for me it definitely does not work, and when I monitor it with regmon, it indicates that the VC-64 was attempting to read a registry key (HKLM\Software\Kjaerhus Audio\VC-64) that does not exist. If you wouldn't mind, Jose, could you check your system and see if that key exists?

Ah! OK, I guess I misunderstood what they meant by install into a separate directory. But, in any case, I have confirmed that the Registry Key for VC-64 does exist on my system. If you want to create it manually follow this steps:

1 - Create the Reg Key "HKLM\Software\Kjaerhus Audio\VC-64".

2 - Right-click "VC-64" and create a new "String Value".

3 - Modify the new string value by writing "Manual" under Value name and the location of the VC-64 manual under Value data. It should be locate in:

C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\Vstplugins\VintageChannel\vintagechannel.chm

4 - Click "OK" and you're done.


HTH.

Thanks, Jose. That did the trick.

All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to.

My Stuff

Eratu,

Thanks! I am more inspired about Sonar than ever before and it's all because of you . Like I've said in the past, we need more people like you in this forum. There are a few others, including those who have responded to this review, who also inspire me to make Sonar the best app ever.

But, anywho, what you have described while using the Step Sequencer is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't recall using 3rd party plugins while I tested it so I will try it once more to confirm this. On top of the weird "lagging, inconsistent glitching, timing issues" you describe I've also experienced Dropouts in some ocations. I think this was even at 512 buffers and my CPU meter in Task Manager was hovering at 60%, even though Sonar was only reporting around 15% CPU usage on each core. It's kinda like the Audio is behind what I see beeing displayed...very wierd.

I haven't even installed Sonar x64 yet. I might do that this weekend since I need to get some work done and stop playing around with Sonar 7 so much. But I've found it to be very stable appart from the few things I've encountered. We just need to keep at it so that Cakewalk can iron all these things out. Thanks again bro, later!


Eric,

I had already linked your thread about that bug under Side Chainning since I think it was introduced by this new feature. Thank you for posting this again though as it is very important that people are aware of it. I'm on the same boat as you with that bug since I haven't found a way to get rid of it and I can reproduce it 100% of the time with the same results.

A similar thing to what you're experiencing happens to me with the new Mastering plugs, except I don't hear a fading in or out. However, I do hear glitching/gapping audio until I release the EQ or Compressor band and it immediately plays fine.

As far as the Smart MIDI Tools, you need to try them out even if you don't work with MIDI that much. You will after you see what they can do. They're wicked cool.

Take care!


Now, the other Eric (ericyeoman) ,

I've included my signature, which has my specs, in post #6. But I'll include it here again, here it is :

Intel Q9400 2.66 GHz
8 GB of RAM @ 800 Mhz
ATI Radeon HD 3650
Windows 7 Professional x64
Sonar PE 8.5.2 x64
RME FireFace 400
Frontier Design Alpha Track
Studio Logic VMK-188 Plus

THANK YOU!!!

Jose,

I read your review and by the time I was reading the the responses I sort of forgot you mentioned my thread. Sorry about that. But you are right, it doesn't hurt to have that posted again.

Thanks again for your review and deication to helping users on the frorum.

Eric

Eric Hansen
My Website
Live Videos

Oh by the way, my side chaining is working. But I only had S6 installed before 7. I mentioned having S5 and 6 instaleld earlier but I was thinking about my old machine.

Side chaining is so cool. To me, probably worth the price of admision alone.

Eric Hansen
My Website
Live Videos

Hi Jose

I read your comments about the step sequencer and I agree with you. I didn't have the confidence to ask about this 'problem' as I assumed it was an issue with my PC setup. My first attempts mad keen attempts with the step sequencer resulted in the PC freezing !

It seems to work okay as long as you don't 'push it' too hard :)

Cheers

Is it normal for a POST fader SEND to be louder than the main [Dry] OUTPUT?

One of My Bands on last.fm
My Past My Videos

ORIGINAL: popstar

Hi Jose

I read your comments about the step sequencer and I agree with you. I didn't have the confidence to ask about this 'problem' as I assumed it was an issue with my PC setup. My first attempts mad keen attempts with the step sequencer resulted in the PC freezing !

It seems to work okay as long as you don't 'push it' too hard :)

Cheers

Yes it does. It's great but I guess my system won't be able to cope with another version of Sonar if this keeps up.


I've made another discovery by the way. It seems that what eats all the CPU cycles is having the Step Sequencer window opened. Once I close the window the CPU level in Task Manager goes down considerably. So if any one can confirm this just follow these steps:


1- Open Session Drummer 2 and route it's output to the Session Drummer 2 drum map.

2- Click on the Step Sequencer icon to open it and start creating a beat. Then, play the beat from inside the SS not Sonar.

3- Open the Task Manager to check the CPU level. Compare this to Sonar's CPU level (way different no?).

4- Now close the Step Sequencer window but leave the Task Manager open.

5- Compare the CPU levels again. Did you see the change in CPU usage in TM?


Thanks a lot!

Hi Jose,

Very interesting, it went from 40% down to 8%.
(This was in the Task Manager as opposed to the CPU usage view inside Sonar 7 PE as you suggested)

Cheers

ORIGINAL: popstar

Hi Jose,

Very interesting, it went from 40% down to 8%.
(This was in the Task Manager as opposed to the CPU usage view inside Sonar 7 PE as you suggested)

Cheers

Awesome!

Thanks for taking the time to do this. I will be sending a report about this to Cakewalk, please do the same by filling out the form found here: http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/ProblemReporter/ This will help them correct the problem ASAP.

Take care!


EDIT: Feel free to include the steps I've provided.

For all those having Step Sequencer CPU Hogging troubles, make sure CPU Conservation mode is not turned on. I upgraded from 6PE to 7PE and it was turned on by default, making the step sequencer very unusable because of lag and the such. Press the "Pause" key on the keyboard to toggle between the CPU conservation mode.