ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:22:43
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John T
Hmm. I can't offhand think of a situation where one would need to do such a thing.
You can't, but I can. Others can. It's about choices. And not taking away those choices. I like the ProChannel 'generally' ... but I don't like some things about it. I've also not been a huge fan of the Sonitus EQ for certain needs, but for some things I'd prefer it. Choices. That's the point.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:25:35
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John T
Ah, you mean have the sonitus show in the plot on the console and inspector. Sure, that would be a nice feature.
It's some way away from the point I was replying to, though, which was:
1) this new X1 paradigm is just plain bad for our older complex 8.5.3 mixes
2) One should create primarily new mixes, only, while pioneering in X1 ... especially with the Pro-Channel adaptation (vs. Sonitus EQ)
In that regard, yes. And I have not found any problem loading in pre-X1 projects and playing them back either. That part is fine. Can you imagine a host software that couldn't play back things??? LOL But that's not even scratching the surface of what one might expect a modern day software host to do, of course.
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:26:49
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It's still there though, and can be used. It just doesn't show on the plot. Would be nice if it did, but this is fairly minor, surely?
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:28:19
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ba_midi
John T
Ah, you mean have the sonitus show in the plot on the console and inspector. Sure, that would be a nice feature.
It's some way away from the point I was replying to, though, which was:
1) this new X1 paradigm is just plain bad for our older complex 8.5.3 mixes
2) One should create primarily new mixes, only, while pioneering in X1 ... especially with the Pro-Channel adaptation (vs. Sonitus EQ)
In that regard, yes. And I have not found any problem loading in pre-X1 projects and playing them back either. That part is fine. Can you imagine a host software that couldn't play back things??? LOL
But that's not even scratching the surface of what one might expect a modern day software host to do, of course.
Indeed no, but clearly some people have got the impression it can't even do that.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:32:05
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John T
It's still there though, and can be used. It just doesn't show on the plot. Would be nice if it did, but this is fairly minor, surely?
Everyone has different needs and workflows - and choices. It's not "minor" to everyone. I make an effort, even if not perfect, to not speak for everyone. I try to say "I think/feel ..." as opposed to "we think/feel" (unless I've been given the authority to speak for many). I may say things like "and others seem to agree" or "others have said" etc, but in general I try not to do the group-think thing as I think it changes how one perceives the message. That being said, I reiterate it's minor to you, perhaps, but not to everyone. Again ... CHOICES are good things ;)
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:33:43
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John T
ba_midi
John T
Ah, you mean have the sonitus show in the plot on the console and inspector. Sure, that would be a nice feature.
It's some way away from the point I was replying to, though, which was:
1) this new X1 paradigm is just plain bad for our older complex 8.5.3 mixes
2) One should create primarily new mixes, only, while pioneering in X1 ... especially with the Pro-Channel adaptation (vs. Sonitus EQ)
In that regard, yes. And I have not found any problem loading in pre-X1 projects and playing them back either. That part is fine. Can you imagine a host software that couldn't play back things??? LOL
But that's not even scratching the surface of what one might expect a modern day software host to do, of course.
Indeed no, but clearly some people have got the impression it can't even do that.
Yes, they seem to have... but I wonder how that happened? ;) ;)
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Middleman
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:37:44
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From my perspective, stripping out instances of the Sonitus EQ on past projects is not necessarily a bad thing. It's an outdated plugin which although neutral on the cuts has a very bad high end harshness especially when stacked in a mix.
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:41:44
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ba_midi
John T
It's still there though, and can be used. It just doesn't show on the plot. Would be nice if it did, but this is fairly minor, surely?
Everyone has different needs and workflows - and choices.
It's not "minor" to everyone. I make an effort, even if not perfect, to not speak for everyone. I try to say "I think/feel ..." as opposed to "we think/feel" (unless I've been given the authority to speak for many).
I may say things like "and others seem to agree" or "others have said" etc, but in general I try not to do the group-think thing as I think it changes how one perceives the message.
That being said, I reiterate it's minor to you, perhaps, but not to everyone.
Again ... CHOICES are good things ;)
While that's broadly true, come on... what is it that now can't be done because you don't get a Sonitus plot on the console? If you follow the "one man's dream is another man's deal-breaker" to it's logical conclusion, then we might as well rant about... well, to be honest it's hard to think of something that hasn't already been ranted about. This is what I mean by trying to keep it reasonable. No dev resource is infinite, so surely it makes sense to keep things in their proper perspective. AudioSnap functions not working is plainly A Big Deal; it actually prevents certain things from being achieved. This EQ plot thing doesn't. Being overly relativist about it doesn't really get us very far.
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:43:49
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Middleman
From my perspective, stripping out instances of the Sonitus EQ on past projects is not necessarily a bad thing. It's an outdated plugin which although neutral on the cuts has a very bad high end harshness especially when stacked in a mix.
Aside from that though, the point is that X1 doesn't do that. If you load up an old project that uses the Sonitus EQ, then the Sonitus EQ is right there, sounding exactly like it did before.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:45:33
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Middleman
From my perspective, stripping out instances of the Sonitus EQ on past projects is not necessarily a bad thing. It's an outdated plugin which although neutral on the cuts has a very bad high end harshness especially when stacked in a mix.
Yes, I would say the same. It's not necessarily a bad thing for those who don't use it, don't like, etc. But it was an integral part of Sonar for a long time and some have come to depend on it. Choices. Like privacy, choices are slowly disappearing ;)
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:48:55
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Well, hang on, though. The choice to use it is still there.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:49:39
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John T
ba_midi
John T
It's still there though, and can be used. It just doesn't show on the plot. Would be nice if it did, but this is fairly minor, surely?
Everyone has different needs and workflows - and choices.
It's not "minor" to everyone. I make an effort, even if not perfect, to not speak for everyone. I try to say "I think/feel ..." as opposed to "we think/feel" (unless I've been given the authority to speak for many).
I may say things like "and others seem to agree" or "others have said" etc, but in general I try not to do the group-think thing as I think it changes how one perceives the message.
That being said, I reiterate it's minor to you, perhaps, but not to everyone.
Again ... CHOICES are good things ;)
While that's broadly true, come on... what is it that now can't be done because you don't get a Sonitus plot on the console?
If you follow the "one man's dream is another man's deal-breaker" to it's logical conclusion, then we might as well rant about... well, to be honest it's hard to think of something that hasn't already been ranted about.
This is what I mean by trying to keep it reasonable. No dev resource is infinite, so surely it makes sense to keep things in their proper perspective. AudioSnap functions not working is plainly A Big Deal; it actually prevents certain things from being achieved. This EQ plot thing doesn't. Being overly relativist about it doesn't really get us very far.
John, I may or may not agree with you about the Sonitus EQ in particular ... though I must say not having the EQ plot and visual readouts do bother me (and some others), I agree that for some it won't matter one ioda. But that still is a removal of a choice that existed previously. And you made me laugh about the 'ranting' ... we all certainly know that just about everything that can be ranted about has been or will be ;) I appreciate you have a VERY different take/feeling/attitude/thoughts about some of this, and I respect that of course. I also know that not everyone agrees. Therein lies a problem for the software developers, of course; but that's what having the ability to express our concerns is all about, and then all we can do is hope for the best.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:51:43
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John T
Middleman
From my perspective, stripping out instances of the Sonitus EQ on past projects is not necessarily a bad thing. It's an outdated plugin which although neutral on the cuts has a very bad high end harshness especially when stacked in a mix.
Aside from that though, the point is that X1 doesn't do that. If you load up an old project that uses the Sonitus EQ, then the Sonitus EQ is right there, sounding exactly like it did before.
And once you "try" to use the ProChannel, and do - you can't go back. From that point on, it's gone (Sonitus). Therein lies the issue of choices being removed. BTW, there's even a "warning" message about switching.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:54:16
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John T
Well, hang on, though. The choice to use it is still there.
SIgh ... yes and no. The choice is restricted to an either/or, not a both. Frankly, I think we're stuck with it anyway, so all this may be moot.
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:54:26
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Well, yeah, it is indeed the removal of a choice that existed previously. That happens. The question is, how much does it matter? Without infinite resources, then of course part of progress becomes certain things falling by the wayside.
If you've got an old project that uses the Sonitus EQ, then it's there in X1 like it always was. If you're making a new project, then the Sonitus is just a plug-in, like any other EQ you could use. It's hard to see why this is an issue, and the answer "well, it might be for someone else" strikes me as a bit elliptical. What is the actual problem it's causing you?
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:55:32
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John T
Well, hang on, though. The choice to use it is still there.
BTW, I would have much preferred to have a CHOICE of my "inline" EQ. Something many have requested over a long period of time. That's not going to happen, I'm sure - since the EQ is now an integral part of the ProChannel. But it would have been an excellent option, IMHO.
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:56:12
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ba_midi
John T
Well, hang on, though. The choice to use it is still there.
SIgh ... yes and no. The choice is restricted to an either/or, not a both.
No, you can use ProChannel EQ alongside Sonitus EQ. Arguably it could handle the replacement process better, and let you select track by track on load. That's not a bad feature request, actually.
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:57:26
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"AudioSnap functions not working is plainly A Big Deal"
Really John? Ive had no desire to ever use audiosnap, even being in the electronic music scene for years. I have other methods to accomplish my needs, audiosnap isnt one of them. Does that make this feature any less valuable to you? Do you find that because "we" do not find it a mandatory function for our needs, it somehow becomes less valuable to your workflow?
Modern electronica, hip hop, alternative rock, etc have synth based dynamics which rely on being controlled heavily. EQ's need pin point accuracy, and engineers to manage every synth "element" to sit properly in a mix. Synth sounds can live across the spectrum and easily "muddy" a desired mix. So while audiosnap is the desired function to better help you manage timing issues, EQing with the proper tools are outright necessary for my needs.
This thread though isnt about the plot nor audiosnap, but showstopping functions. Dont want to lose focus here.
post edited by Scott Lee - 2010/12/24 15:02:58
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 14:58:01
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ba_midi
John T
Well, hang on, though. The choice to use it is still there.
BTW, I would have much preferred to have a CHOICE of my "inline" EQ. Something many have requested over a long period of time.
That's not going to happen, I'm sure - since the EQ is now an integral part of the ProChannel.
But it would have been an excellent option, IMHO.
Yeah, it would be good to have the console EQ plot simply be an inspector on whichever EQ you are using. That would be really cool. Could be quite tricky from what I understand of VST specs, mind you.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:00:42
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John T
Well, yeah, it is indeed the removal of a choice that existed previously. That happens. The question is, how much does it matter? Without infinite resources, then of course part of progress becomes certain things falling by the wayside.
If you've got an old project that uses the Sonitus EQ, then it's there in X1 like it always was. If you're making a new project, then the Sonitus is just a plug-in, like any other EQ you could use. It's hard to see why this is an issue, and the answer "well, it might be for someone else" strikes me as a bit elliptical. What is the actual problem it's causing you?
Well I won't go over and over the problem now - it's been well stated in numerous threads recently, and I'm not that hung up about it, frankly. I tended to use the Sonitus for what I'd call "light EQ" -- maybe some hi pass filtering, or a minor midrange or high end adjustment. As with Middleman, I was not happy with some of the Sonitus 'sound'. But it served a limited but useful purpose FOR ME. And, at least CW have stated clearly what their position is about it and there are warnings if you 'change' to the ProChannel, so they've done their job in that regard. But there are restrictions, and that is the point. I also think any software vendor (in this case CW) should be allowed some license as to how they present the interface and tools to the users. There's never going to be the "perfect" solution that everyone would agree to. BUT, there are some issues that rise to the surface that should be addressed (the CV is just one example that seems to rise to the surface). Whether or not the Sonitus EQ rises to that level, I don't know, and I doubt. But I also think it really is a moot point at this time.
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:02:53
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Scott Lee
"AudioSnap functions not working is plainly A Big Deal"
Really John? Ive had no desire to ever use audiosnap, even being in the electronic music scene for years. I have other methods to accomplish my needs, audiosnap isnt one of them.
Does that make this feature any less valuable to you? Do you find that because "we" do not find it a mandatory function for our needs, it somehow becomes less valuable to you?
Modern electronica, hip hop, alternative rock, etc have synth based dynamics which rely on being controlled heavily. EQ's need pin point accuracy, and engineers to manage every synth "element" to sit properly in a mix. Synth sounds can live across the spectrum and easily "muddy" a desired mix.
So while audiosnap is the desired function to better help you manage timing issues, EQing with the proper tools are outright necessary for my needs.
This thread though isnt about the plot nor audiosnap, but showstopping functions. Dont want to lose focus here.
Well, showstopping functions is exactly what I'm talking about. Parts of AudioSnap just plain do not work at all right now. Not buggy, not the wrong colour, not "I would prefer", but actually inactive. On the other hand, none of the EQ functions that existed previously have been removed or made non-functional, apart from this console plot issue. What EQing could you do in 8.5 that you can't do in X1? (For the record, you guys way over-estimate the difference in the need for precision between electronica mixes and live instrument mixes. Everyone still has to get the same kind of solid as a rock modern production nowadays, whether it's a guitar band or an entirely electronic track).
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:03:11
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John T
ba_midi
John T
Well, hang on, though. The choice to use it is still there.
SIgh ... yes and no. The choice is restricted to an either/or, not a both.
No, you can use ProChannel EQ alongside Sonitus EQ. Arguably it could handle the replacement process better, and let you select track by track on load. That's not a bad feature request, actually.
We could go on and on and on about this, but obviously you're not seeing the problem as some others (including myself) do. So it's a bit fruitless to try to convince you of why some may make a different choice than you. Also - you can only use the Sonitus "along with "the Pro Channel IF you have the VST version to insert as you would any other plugin. I'm not sure the DX version still works, to be honest lol.
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:05:13
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ba_midi
Well I won't go over and over the problem now
You're kidding me, right? You can write all these lengthy posts, but you can't just state why the absence of the thing from the plot is a problem for you?
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:05:58
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ba_midi
John T
ba_midi
John T
Well, hang on, though. The choice to use it is still there.
SIgh ... yes and no. The choice is restricted to an either/or, not a both.
No, you can use ProChannel EQ alongside Sonitus EQ. Arguably it could handle the replacement process better, and let you select track by track on load. That's not a bad feature request, actually.
We could go on and on and on about this, but obviously you're not seeing the problem as some others (including myself) do. So it's a bit fruitless to try to convince you of why some may make a different choice than you.
Also - you can only use the Sonitus "along with "the Pro Channel IF you have the VST version to insert as you would any other plugin.
I'm not sure the DX version still works, to be honest lol.
VST version is bundled with X1, so how would you not have it?
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:10:45
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(For the record, you guys way over-estimate the difference in the need for precision between electronica mixes and live instrument mixes. Everyone still has to get the same kind of solid as a rock modern production nowadays, whether it's a guitar band or an entirely electronic track). OF COURSE each genre/type of recording presents its own difficulties - but anyone who works deeply with synths knows that the frequency range of a synth can be very wide and deep. In those situations the surgical needs are acute. We all know that, for a simple example, a 'bass' has a somewhat limited frequency range (though variable a bit of course). I would assert that it's easier to "fit" a bass in a mix (even though it has its own problems to deal with) than a massive multi-layered synth structure. After all, there are just so many frequencies one can have building up before it becomes unwieldy. I'm not for a minute suggesting that there is some badge of honor in handling multi-synth productions vs live/acoustic productions. Yes they do each have their own hurdles. But there are HUGE differences in bandwidth from any ONE synth to another. I would submit there's a degree less variance in some live/acoustic instruments. And I think what Scott is trying to point out is that AUdioSnap seems to have importance to you -- and I don't see anyone (yet) suggesting, as you sometimes do about other's needs, that you're not entitled to have your needs met - without question.
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:12:20
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"For the record, you guys way over-estimate the difference in the need for precision between electronica mixes"
Years of experience says otherwise John. A guitar, is just that. A guitar. A snare, is, well a snare.
A synth patch named 64 Degree MS (name I happen to be looking at on my virus TI). What dynamics are we talking about now?
Point is you dont know. So we need to analize, adjust, and fit accordingly.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:12:56
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Well, showstopping functions is exactly what I'm talking about. Parts of AudioSnap just plain do not work at all right now. Not buggy, not the wrong colour, not "I would prefer", but actually inactive. Btw, there are those who would jump in and say "IT'S YOUR SYSTEM!" ;) Maybe, maybe not. But it's easy to dismiss software bugs these days and simply attribute almost everything and anything to the users system. While it IS often true that many issues can be debugged to discover it IS a system problem, it's also as true to attribute issues to things even when that is NOT the case.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:14:49
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(For the record, you guys way over-estimate the difference in the need for precision between electronica mixes and live instrument mixes.
I actually get a bit preturbed when someone says "you guys ..." and in this case "you guys way overestimate ..." You're making some incredible assumptions there, John. I used to own a fairly major recording studio in NYC. I've had experience in many areas of the industry. I'm not overestimating. I"m speaking from MY experience, and I wouldn't be so arrogant to assume others don't have any.
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/12/24 15:20:00
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:16:08
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"Well, showstopping functions is exactly what I'm talking about."
Then why bring up audiosnap? Thats a feature, crashing to the desktop is a showstopper.
"You're kidding me, right? You can write all these lengthy posts, but you can't just state why the absence of the thing from the plot is a problem for you? "
John, we have another thread about this discussion can we please keep it contained. Thanks.
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/24 15:16:12
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ba_midi
(For the record, you guys way over-estimate the difference in the need for precision between electronica mixes and live instrument mixes. Everyone still has to get the same kind of solid as a rock modern production nowadays, whether it's a guitar band or an entirely electronic track).
OF COURSE each genre/type of recording presents its own difficulties - but anyone who works deeply with synths knows that the frequency range of a synth can be very wide and deep. In those situations the surgical needs are acute.
Indeed it can. But anyone who works deeply with distorted electric guitar knows that presents exactly the same problem, across a similarly staggering frequency range. And pinpointing precise ranges to cut precisely to make room for other instruments is similarly forensic. Add a second guitar, even more so. Throw in a string section, and you're in a world of pain if you can't be precise. Seriously, mixing for synths is less specialist and unique than you guys seem to think. A bunch of sounds that need to fit together sympathetically in the audible range is all it is, and there's nothing magical about non-synth sounds that makes this any easier.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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