Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/27 19:16:30
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Hi Billy,
Indeed. As you know, Ive been a cakewalk pro audio/sonar guy for hmm, 16 years or so. My experience has been while other DAWs look shine and well tempting (up until X1 love the new look) I found the workflow of Sonar to be vastly superior. When it comes to writing music, we want to interface effectively in a comfortable environment, in other DAW's I would be doing 3-4x the work just for basic functionally I would perform in Sonar.
I've been a Sonar advocate for years, and am looking forward to a rock solid stable version of X1.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/27 19:30:34
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Scott Lee
Hi Billy,
Indeed. As you know, Ive been a cakewalk pro audio/sonar guy for hmm, 16 years or so. My experience has been while other DAWs look shine and well tempting (up until X1 love the new look) I found the workflow of Sonar to be vastly superior. When it comes to writing music, we want to interface effectively in a comfortable environment, in other DAW's I would be doing 3-4x the work just for basic functionally I would perform in Sonar.
I've been a Sonar advocate for years, and am looking forward to a rock solid stable version of X1.
Well, other than Live (which as you know is a VERY different approach), there's not much out there that actually does all that Sonar has been able to do (from what I can tell). For example - I was watching some of the Presonus Studio One videos last week and I did not notice even one that had real MIDI work being shown in it. Almost every video was almost entirely related to audio files and audio recording. Some people I've spoken to who use it have pretty much said it's not a strong MIDI host. So that somewhat negates it for me, if that's true. I've seen some people even on this forum state they think Sonar isn't strong in handling MIDI. Hmm, coulda fooled me since that's 99% of what I do! As for Cubase ... well, I just never was able to feel at home with it (and I've tried it a few times over the years). Reaper doesn't have all the workflow approach I enjoy with Sonar (even in X1), so again that's not a 'great' choice. And well, there just aren't many choices. But this is all the more reason why I think those of us who are loyal customers and users need to speak up about our needs and try to impress why we need certain things that are a bit lacking or not functioning quite right *yet* in X1. One very very simple example of something I've seen a TON of forum users request for a number of years: a way to change the color of the "Selected Bus". It seems so obvious to allow that and would make spotting what bus we've selected SOOO much easier. And it seems like an amazing oversight for many years. Now that one example may not be a biggie or earth shattering, but it's just one of those workflow things that easily would make visual interaction better. There may be those who would argue this point, but I think they'd be far and few between. Anyway - let's keep expressing our needs and hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears.
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/12/27 19:32:26
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vksf01
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/27 20:07:46
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ba_midi
Scott Lee
Hi Billy,
Indeed. As you know, Ive been a cakewalk pro audio/sonar guy for hmm, 16 years or so. My experience has been while other DAWs look shine and well tempting (up until X1 love the new look) I found the workflow of Sonar to be vastly superior. When it comes to writing music, we want to interface effectively in a comfortable environment, in other DAW's I would be doing 3-4x the work just for basic functionally I would perform in Sonar.
I've been a Sonar advocate for years, and am looking forward to a rock solid stable version of X1.
Well, other than Live (which as you know is a VERY different approach), there's not much out there that actually does all that Sonar has been able to do (from what I can tell).
For example - I was watching some of the Presonus Studio One videos last week and I did not notice even one that had real MIDI work being shown in it. Almost every video was almost entirely related to audio files and audio recording.
Some people I've spoken to who use it have pretty much said it's not a strong MIDI host. So that somewhat negates it for me, if that's true.
I've seen some people even on this forum state they think Sonar isn't strong in handling MIDI. Hmm, coulda fooled me since that's 99% of what I do!
As for Cubase ... well, I just never was able to feel at home with it (and I've tried it a few times over the years). Reaper doesn't have all the workflow approach I enjoy with Sonar (even in X1), so again that's not a 'great' choice. And well, there just aren't many choices.
But this is all the more reason why I think those of us who are loyal customers and users need to speak up about our needs and try to impress why we need certain things that are a bit lacking or not functioning quite right *yet* in X1.
One very very simple example of something I've seen a TON of forum users request for a number of years: a way to change the color of the "Selected Bus".
It seems so obvious to allow that and would make spotting what bus we've selected SOOO much easier. And it seems like an amazing oversight for many years.
Now that one example may not be a biggie or earth shattering, but it's just one of those workflow things that easily would make visual interaction better. There may be those who would argue this point, but I think they'd be far and few between.
Anyway - let's keep expressing our needs and hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears.
i agree, i tried reaper, but didn't really like the workflow. having spent the last 10+ years on sonar, i don't really want to give it up. i've done sessions on 8.5.3 with mac-heads and they've been really impressed with sonar (to the point of asking if sonar were available on the mac). but in the end, as billy says, i really hope they fix these issues and it doesnt fall on deaf ears.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/27 20:13:55
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i agree, i tried reaper, but didn't really like the workflow. having spent the last 10+ years on sonar, i don't really want to give it up. i've done sessions on 8.5.3 with mac-heads and they've been really impressed with sonar (to the point of asking if sonar were available on the mac). but in the end, as billy says, i really hope they fix these issues and it doesnt fall on deaf ears. Actually that's a funny scenario. I've had MAC heads here too while either working in or just showing them Sonar. They ALWAYS have asked if it was available for the MAC. I am just not a MAC lover for various reasons, so even if it was, I'd stay on the PC with it.
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/27 20:39:11
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Hi Billy.
I firmly believe the closest thing I will ever get to a Mac is my iphone 4. :)
While I've used them many times in recording sessions working for Capital Records, my home studio was just a OMF away for compatibility. Like you way to many years invested in the PC as well as having all the software available that I currently use of which some are exclusive to the PC.
My only gripe currently is just the stability. Sonar X1 is there technically, cakewalk just needs the lockdown I posted about in this topic of this thread.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/27 21:13:53
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Scott Lee
Hi Billy.
I firmly believe the closest thing I will ever get to a Mac is my iphone 4. :)
While I've used them many times in recording sessions working for Capital Records, my home studio was just a OMF away for compatibility. Like you way to many years invested in the PC as well as having all the software available that I currently use of which some are exclusive to the PC.
My only gripe currently is just the stability. Sonar X1 is there technically, cakewalk just needs the lockdown I posted about in this topic of this thread.
As for stability - I agree. Once again I'm working on a project tonight solely in X1. I'm honestly doing my best to try to make this work. It's an "almost." I keep running into things that are truly annoying. Like simply selecting and deleting a small clip (audio) and the playback stops. Showstopper? Not totally. BIG annoyance? Totally. So, yeah - I sure hope when the holiday is over that the Bakers can crank out a whole bunch of bug fixes for us all.
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Crg
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/27 21:56:00
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Scott Lee
"in a virtualized environment"
Again, please link the post I EVER stated that I ran in such an environment. I run a normal XP 32-bit system in every respect.
XP needs to go Scott.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/27 23:22:27
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Crg
Scott Lee
"in a virtualized environment"
Again, please link the post I EVER stated that I ran in such an environment. I run a normal XP 32-bit system in every respect.
XP needs to go Scott.
Oh please. XP works quite well. Sure Windows 7 is the new fashion but that doesn't negate XP. There will come a time, of course, since all the vendors won't support it then -- but we're not there just yet. And, ya know it takes a LOT of a person's time to make a major change to a fine working system -- plugins, authorizations, drivers, let alone the sheer formatting/installing a new OS.
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 05:13:01
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"XP needs to go Scott" Not until windows 7 has any real advantage. 64-bit give you memory access yes, with headaches at every corner with bit-bridge. Dont even think about an upgrade unless your audio card supports windows 7 effectively and every other hardware manufactures tied into your system. As posted in the operational manual, XP Sp3 is fully supported by Sonar X1 and is actually used by quite a few users. Right now, my hardware runs better on this setup then any other system, so again until I see a real advantage, its not going to happen anytime in the near furture. Best,
post edited by Scott Lee - 2010/12/28 05:44:33
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mudgel
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 07:03:36
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To Billy & Scott:
Good that you guys got to share a conversation not constantly being interrrupted as it had been earlier.
I sympathise with both of you as I had my weird moment, now passed, but nonetheless I'm pretty certain there's something in X1a that is not quite right. Hope it all gets sorted out.
Like you both i have a long history invested in SONAR and consequently the PC platform and if i'm going to have to learn a new GUI I too have looked around.
I must admit that PT9 seemed pretty attractive at first glance until I found out you really need the full add on tool Kit that adds 2 grand to the advertised price of $599 before you get in the ball park of SONAR 8.5.3 features give or take a few. That's really the PTHD9 software without the hardware.
Anyway so I'm on 8.5.3 for the things that matter and I'll play around with X1 to get a better grip on it but I'm just not keen on the fit for me. Oh well.
All the best guys.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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John T
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 07:56:07
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XP is completely fine. You ought to see the XP laptop I got it running on yesterday; single core, 1gb memory. It's not exactly speedy, but it does work.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 09:33:33
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Hi Mudgel,
We have our work arounds for now and am looking forward to the next update. I hope all these strange quirks get addressed. Otherwise I am really enjoying X1, just want to be able to use it without a hitch :)
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 13:41:05
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Just had another reason why no windows 7 for me. Seems the Access Virus TI virus control is having issues with another Sonar X1 user. This is not the first time I have hear this issue, in fact its plagged allot of folks.
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jimknopf
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 13:56:09
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Not confirmed.
I use my Access TI keyboard with virus control in Windows 7. The latest Access TI OS release has fixed some graphical interface issues and adopted to Windows 7 fine. At least I have no problems.
And yes, Windows 7 offers a lot of everyday usability over XP (I never used Vista and went from XP SP3 to Win7), while being stable and comparably fast.
I can't judge Windows7/64 driver and plugin issues, because I'm running a 32bit system. But I know that more and more people use the Win7/64 platform successfully (meaning: with not too many driver/software problems, and some successful workarounds).
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 14:00:03
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Hi jimknopf, I personally know 4 people that have had serious issues with the Virus Control and Windows 7 working (another just posted on the forums). As far and stable and fast, have both of those too running @ 19 threads, no internet, just the basics. Point is for me I have 0 reasons to upgrade for now :)
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jimknopf
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 14:40:51
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Not trying to persuade you, just telling how it works here, on a desktop and a notebook, and for both it seems better than before.
As long as your system works, I understand well that you want to keep it.
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 16:13:56
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Hi Jim,
Actually its more then that. It would cost me a $1700.00 pro audio card upgrade to get "proper" windows 7 support, and well, its not worth it in any respect.
Hardware is stellar on this system, the best its ever been. Super fast, never crashes bare minimal system.
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yorolpal
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 16:43:51
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Scott Lee
"XP needs to go Scott"
Not until windows 7 has any real advantage. 64-bit give you memory access yes, with headaches at every corner with bit-bridge.
It's these kinds of hyperbolic claims that are keeping many Sonar users from seeing just how great 64bit is. This is utter nonsense. While, to be sure, there are a few...and I mean few...plugins and softsynths that are problematic in 64bit most...and I mean most...work just fine under BitBridge. And once one has seen how much better ram hungry programs run and how many more instantiations you can have one (myself, for instance) is most likely to never wish to return to their luddite 32bit existance...there, I can be just as hyperbolic as you;-)
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 16:46:11
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yorolpal
Scott Lee
"XP needs to go Scott"
Not until windows 7 has any real advantage. 64-bit give you memory access yes, with headaches at every corner with bit-bridge.
It's these kinds of hyperbolic claims that are keeping many Sonar users from seeing just how great 64bit is. This is utter nonsense. While, to be sure, there are a few...and I mean few...plugins and softsynths that are problematic in 64bit most...and I mean most...work just fine under BitBridge. And once one has seen how much better ram hungry programs run and how many more instantiations you can have one (myself, for instance) is most likely to never wish to return to their luddite 32bit existance...there, I can be just as hyperbolic as you;-)
All that's well and good, Ol Pal - but the one thing that takes on way more importance to me is: TIME. Finding the time. Reauthorizing plugins. Yada yada yada. I have NO objections about going full 64bit other than the TIME it takes to do so. I'm already building a new system so sometime in Jan or Feb I'll make the time. But I'm gonna hate using that time up, that's for sure.
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 16:53:15
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Hi Pal, Unfortunately this does not work for my needs. 64-bit gives you more memory access. As of now, that is it. This config though is great for folks that dont have a slew of VSTs and or hardware outboard gear that rely on 32-bit drivers. Unfortunately, the wee bit of memory access I would gain isnt worth the $2100.00 price tag of hardware upgrades I'd need for windows 7 drivers in 64-bit. Best,
post edited by Scott Lee - 2010/12/28 16:54:36
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yorolpal
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 16:56:44
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No question about that Billy, ol pal. It took me about two weeks working when I could in the production studio to load all my programs and plugs and get them authorized and running on my new hotshoe killer diller unit from Jim Roseberry. But while it can be a PITA for some, I genuinely look forward to a yearly complete teardown and rebuild of my studio. I always end up with less cables, more efficient layout, cleaner workspace and faster and more powerful computer. It actually kicks me in the ass to create more new music as I'm excited and rarin to go.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:02:27
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yorolpal
No question about that Billy, ol pal. It took me about two weeks working when I could in the production studio to load all my programs and plugs and get them authorized and running on my new hotshoe killer diller unit from Jim Roseberry. But while it can be a PITA for some, I genuinely look forward to a yearly complete teardown and rebuild of my studio. I always end up with less cables, more efficient layout, cleaner workspace and faster and more powerful computer. It actually kicks me in the ass to create more new music as I'm excited and rarin to go.
Hehe, well to be honest, one thing I DO look forward to is cleaning up the mess that somehow magically appears after a year-long production fest lol. The cables seem to grow tenacles! ;)
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John
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:14:13
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64-bit gives you more memory access. As of now, that is it. That is what most people think but its not true. Going to 64 bits in most situations will if the hardware is fully meant for 64 bit computing will give the user a faster machine and much better security. A 64 bit OS uses hardware for many security things that are unavailable to 32 bit OSs on the same machine. There are a lot of benefits to 64 bit computing. One needs to go to a web site that is up to date and explains 64 bits. It isn't just a nice thing but an important move forward. If one is not able to upgrade due to incompatibilities that is no good reason to advise others that it is not worthwhile to do so. This sort of advise is self serving. Its really saying because I can't go there I am going to say no need for others to do so either. Being content with what one has is no reason to not embrace new technology. Especially when giving advice to others.
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:19:11
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"That is what most people think but its not true." Unfortunately for Sonar X1, this is the case. I agree. For people that just built a new hardware system and do not have legacy hardware to deal with, sure by all means upgrade! But this isnt about a fresh system, this was in response to Crgs post for me to drop XP. I have no desire or need to upgrade. My system is better served as an XP SP3 32-bit system and I am very pleased with it. Best,
post edited by Scott Lee - 2010/12/28 17:21:10
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UnderTow
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:19:31
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John
Being content with what one has is no reason to not embrace new technology.
Somehow that seems fitting in a more general sense than just as a response to Scott. UnderTow
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:27:37
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John
64-bit gives you more memory access. As of now, that is it.
That is what most people think but its not true. Going to 64 bits in most situations will if the hardware is fully meant for 64 bit computing will give the user a faster machine and much better security. A 64 bit OS uses hardware for many security things that are unavailable to 32 bit OSs on the same machine. There are a lot of benefits to 64 bit computing. One needs to go to a web site that is up to date and explains 64 bits. It isn't just a nice thing but an important move forward.
If one is not able to upgrade due to incompatibilities that is no good reason to advise others that it is not worthwhile to do so. This sort of advise is self serving. Its really saying because I can't go there I am going to say no need for others to do so either. Being content with what one has is no reason to not embrace new technology. Especially when giving advice to others.
Other than the basic security afforded by almost any version of Windows, I don't see much need to worry about that personally. So that means very little in terms of what 64bit OS 'offers' me. Also - unless there is some magical way a device can 'speed up', it still depends on the drivers regardless of OS. xx amount of latency is xx amount of latency. How the computer processes it is more about the CPU and overall system 'strength' than about a 64bit OS itself. You can run a 64bit OS on a slower computer too -- so by itself, the OS is only part of a system performance. And, with all due respect, John - I would think that most of the smart people on this forum are fully aware of what 64bit OS does/can do/can't do and what websites may offer such information. Frankly, the only reasons that I see to go 64bit (and I am running 4 computers out of my 14 here now with Windows 7 64bit) are: 1- More memory. Nice - but it's not been a real issue for me yet (and I run HUGE plugins on 32bit). 2- Vendors forcing me to. This one I can only fight for so long ;) I don't mind "going there," but I do mind being shoved there by the market forces. I know it's inevitable in our fast paced "gotta have new" economy, but that doesn't, in itself, make it right or good -- it just makes it 'so.' OH! And speaking of "embracing new technology" ... when are you going to get X1 and join the fun? ;)
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:29:55
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UnderTow
John
Being content with what one has is no reason to not embrace new technology.
Somehow that seems fitting in a more general sense than just as a response to Scott.
UnderTow
And that's coming from someone who doesn't even have X1 yet :O (Sorry John, I couldn't resist ;) )
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John
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:31:25
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OH! And speaking of "embracing new technology" ... when are you going to get X1 and join the fun? ;) Have you heard me say to anyone not to get it?
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:32:51
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John
OH! And speaking of "embracing new technology" ... when are you going to get X1 and join the fun? ;)
Have you heard me say to anyone not to get it?
Have you seen or heard anyone in this thread say to anyone NOT to get 64bit OS (even if they themselve won't)? BTW, aren't you on Vista ?
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:44:03
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Hi Billy,
Indeed. Actually my work computer (audio director / senior sound designer at a video game company) has windows 7 running at 64-bit. Since it was just built and hardware semi new, it wasn't too bad. Though my stable system at home is a completely different situation. It will remain as is until I have to drop the cash for the hardware upgrades. (of which really I am content really with how it is)
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