A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.

Hi all,

As you may have noticed, the forums have been on fire. We are all here for one reason, Sonar and the fine product that it is.

 However, we have quite a mess on our hands with the state Sonar X1 is currently in. We have slew of bugs that need to be addressed immediately that, honestly,  are showstoppers as well as allot of cosmetic glitches. I have been on both sides of the fence here, both promoting extensively and speaking out on issues when necessary.

Im not going to list the problems, so I'll just get to the point. Cakewalk, you guys are all amazing and we respect the work you do. Braydon, Seth, Robin, Noel, Support thanks for the amazing software and all the hard work you put into this product. I've personally been an audio director, sound designer, song composer for AAA video game developers for years, so I know how frustrating it can be and rewarding when releasing your labor of love. Remember, allot of the venting and frustrations we are witnessing are folks, like you, that love the software so please just remember that. Also please note I am in no way flaming anyone nor trying to be negative. I want Sonar to be the premiere PC DAW on the market and just to better the product.

My Plea? Well, will call it a suggestion. I would like to see Cakewalk make an official statement letting the folks know internal development status. Something along the lines of  "We are aware of these issues and are going to deal with them swiftly. We are prioritizing a list that will be posted and will be working with the community to eliminate all  known related Sonar X1 issues.  Thank you for your support and will be working with you accordingly." I believe having management opening channels of better communication will help put the "fires out" and get the forums back into posts about, well, creating music!

Us, the end users, want to know you understand. Everyone from folks just starting out recording a few tracks for fun, to the industry pros that push the software in a very competitive field. We need communication and a plan. What I think allot of us fear, just being honest here, is if its not spoken loudly enough or making a "stink", bugs stay in and get a blinds eye approach especially if the forums vets are screaming and no one responds. We have known issues dating back from the early Sonar days that still are prevalent in Cakewalk flagship product as an example. I personally would like to see development really crack down for a final sweep, a "lockdown" on X1, creating a real world environment solid as a rock. My belief in doing so will eliminate  the 8.53  vs X1 split especially knowing long overdue fixes are exclusive to X1. How about that PR?

It would be fantastic if we could open a few more channels of discussion with the team and let us, the community, help you make Sonar X1 the number one daw, as it should be.

Best Regards,

Good post.  A statement would be nice but action and follow-through would be so much better.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Pro Channel should be the end of the plugins/fx for a while.  They finally got the GUI overhaul out of the way. From here on out all focus needs be on fine tuning/updating the new the GUI and, most importantly, enhancing Sonar "under the hood" only.

allot

Leee


Scott, thank you for saying what needed to be said in an articulate and civilized manner.  I couldn't agree more or said it any better (except there is no word "allot", it's "a lot")

Actually, to be pedantic, there is a world "allot" (see here  http://www.google.com.au/search?q=define:allot) it just doesn't mean what most people think it means. (People use it because their spellcheckers don't upchuck on it)

Usually 'a lot' is misspelt 'alot'. I find the best way to remember this is by a tag line I read years ago which said "...you wouldn't write 'alittle' would you?"

Also, I challenge anyone to read this webpage and then still get it wrong ;)

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

Actually, to be pedantic, there is a world "allot

word usually gets misspelt, acually to be pedantic there is a word "world" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World

I'm with you Scott.

i must admit though I have seen quite a few statements about Cakewalk;s intentions to make X1 work as it should have and taking not of our comments and working with us etc etc.

The only concern I have about what I've heard and what I'd still like to hear is that the guys that talk to us aren't necessarily the ones that deliver the goods and despite them being on our side they may have no more pull than we have.

And sadly in the past we've been let down a bit between expectations and actual delivery. Hence the constant rehash on this forum of all the old things that never got fixed. we never get a dialog on that. Those posts never get answered.
As far as I'm concerned those old issues need to be exposed, clarified and acknowledged by Cakewalk with a comittment to fix them and methodically go through SONAR like a dose of salts cleaning it all out and making it more robust. then and only then should we have an X2 or whatever we get next year.

I'm ever hopeful but if this is as good as it gets I might as well save myself the headache of learning a new DAW GUI and stay on 8.5.3. I said it last year the best thing about 8.5.3 is that i don't need anything else in the program. Sure you can always want more but the need is not always there. What 8.5.3 misses I can make up for with plugins. Last year we said we didn't want any more pluigns - what's the number one offering this year ProChannel at the expense of the Sonitus EQ  on each channel strip. and its tied to SONAR. And it has some limitations to make it "easier to use". I don't even get to decide what's easier to use anymore. The programer now gets to decide for me. Same attitude in several of the offereings from menus to layouts and previous features that have been eliminated to make it easier to use. Why not fix Audio Snap and V-Vocal so they're easier to use why not make them work properly instead of giving us another plugin.

Anyway I've gone to 3rd party tools for the V-Vocal and AudioSnap type functions so Cake can do what they want in that regard.

Time will tell. I hope its a positive outcome. i'd love to see X1 really be the product it could be but there's not a lot of evidence to base the hope on.

John T


It's Xmas eve. How about every chills out for a few days? You're not going to get an official statement while everyone's on holiday no matter how many long winded threads restating points already worn thin with repetition you make.

Jeez. Go and wrap some presents and hang out with your families or something.

+1

It's a bit like when you got a light out on your car
it's useful when the 1st person tells you
but it wears a bit thin (and is just plain annoying) when guy number 27 says
"Hey - do you know you've got a light out" 

Chregg


Actually, to be pedantic, there is a world "allot

word usually gets misspelt, acually to be pedantic there is a word "world" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World

Hee hee.  Touché (I think I spelt that right)

Scott:

Pro user here as well.  I appreciate both your sentiment and the work of the software engineers.

I have not either downloaded nor installed X1 yet.  I have been completing end of year projects for broadcast and CD for clients.  8.5.3 has been perfect for all of that work.  X1 won't change my client work at the moment, and I don't have any investment in 'testing' at this time.

X1 is a big change, it has yet to convince me it is equally a big improvement - bugs or no bugs - but that is probably related to the type of work that I do rather than production features of the tool.  I am mostly  a post production engineer and Sonar has been fine since 5.0 notwithstanding it's Video shortcomings.

I will be teaching X1 in my Sound Design course this fall and expect all of the bug stuff to settle down long before that.  I believe that the majority of folks with X1 problems are not facing big client projects inside of the tool - most like you and I are working in an earlier version.

Best

-D

"I thought you were in China Scott? Everything you plead for is already being done."

Im not asian but If I where Chinese, I may have been slightly offended by that comment Crg. 

"You're not going to get an official statement while everyone's on holiday"

I wasn't asking for one. 

"Cakewalk are well aware of the issues"

Which issues are you referring to? Does anyone know? While, Xb is in the works, what is in Xb? Whats planned for Xc, Xd, and Xe? Does Cakewalk acknowledge that X1 needs more then just a few tweaks before they start development on X2?

In software development we test internally and of course have a set duration for alpha / beta testing before the final milestone goes master gold. The beta testers have direct link accessible to all helping provide a prioritized list.

Point is we dont know the answers thus has apparently created allot of frustrated forum users.

Anyways Merry Christmas all!

Best,

I'm still on the fence (from uprgrading from 8.5.3) ... reading all your devout comments.  Thank you.  Please correct my hypotheses (below)

It seems, IMHO, from Mudgel's struggles and the Op's ... that:

1) this new X1 paradigm is just plain bad for our older complex 8.5.3 mixes

2) One should create primarily new mixes, only, while pioneering in X1 ... especially with the Pro-Channel adaptation (vs. Sonitus EQ)

3) One should keep 8.5.3 (64 and/or 32) installed ... for (sh!t-I-forgot-the-word ... I think it is) ... backwards compatibility of 'sensitive' mixes.

4) I should plan on running both 8.5.3 and X1 ... for the next 6 months at least.

5) Cakewalk is probably not to blame, IMHO ... for lack of communication ... as the X1 product update is, IIRC only $100 ... and I don't want to pay more.

Please refute or validate my hypotheses ... anyone (at any level)

To directly respond to that, all I've really donw with it so far is load old mixes to assess what kinds of issues I'd have migrating. And I've not found anything yet that it doesn't play back just fine. Dropping in of the old Sonitus EQ instead of the ProChannel in particular, is absolutely seamless.

I think your experience in X1 depends on how you use the product. There are a variety of styles of usage i.e. loopers, groove clippers, console users, track view users, people that use it primarily for audio recording.

I use track view and just record live musicians and I have to say I am not experiencing a lot of the problems I have read from other people. Not to say they don't exist but so far I am not having a frustrating experience on this upgrade.

There are a lot of XP, laptop users and some Vista users that are seeing problems which points to graphics drivers. That said there are some legitimate issues and non-legitimate issues. Color restrictions, if that hangs up your mood might be an issue. I for one like the new color scheme restricted as it is for others.

So your experience on X1 might be dependent on your style of use or possibly your mood after spending 3 hours downloading the software.

Middleman


I think your experience in X1 depends on how you use the product. There are a variety of styles of usage i.e. loopers, groove clippers, console users, track view users, people that use it primarily for audio recording.

I use track view and just record live musicians and I have to say I am not experiencing a lot of the problems I have read from other people. Not to say they don't exist but so far I am not having a frustrating experience on this upgrade.

There are a lot of XP, laptop users and some Vista users that are seeing problems which points to graphics drivers. That said there are some legitimate issues and non-legitimate issues. Color restrictions, if that hangs up your mood might be an issue. I for one like the new color scheme restricted as it is for others.

So your experience on X1 might be dependent on your style of use or possibly your mood after spending 3 hours downloading the software.

I think you point out something a few of us have been discussing publicly and privately:   X1 seems to be working quite well for the people using it primarily (not exclusively) as a multi-track recorder for tracking instruments (including soft synths on occasion).  
 
Those of us who are more involved in the electronic music area - which requires a much deeper toolset in many ways, and requires using many 3rd party plugins, and requires many editing techniques that generally (not always) do not fall in the realm of band-type recording, etc., well not everyone is doing so well in this case.
 
IOW, I honestly do believe that the kind of workflow one employs in X1 (or any product of its kind) DOES matter.
 
If one is not using certain functions that are expected to work but may not (or are buggy), that person may NEVER experience or even stumble on to that bug.
 
I'm one who has been a heavy power user of Sonar and have done just about every kind of music style there is  -- but I do it all "In The Box".   I have often run into things many others don't.   And it's not all about video and audio issues.  Sometimes it really is an issue with the software itself.
 
I've been both a loyal (but not blindly so) supporter of Sonar and a long time user.  I've made a ton of music, sometimes really quickly (which somewhat counters what dontmeltmedown says) under pressure at times.  I've RAVED about the ability to do all that.
 
X1, for reasons yet to be determined, and I are not doing well together.  Does that mean it's no good? Nah - not at all.  As we know, some people (depending on how they use it) are doing just fine.
 
But not everyone. 
 
I do think this plea makes some sense.  I do hope to see rapid improvement of X1.  I want to be able to stay with it.  This is the first time in many years that I'm even considering looking elsewhere - not because I don't support CW / Sonar, but I also have MY needs to meet as well.
 
So I, for one, would very much appreciate a road map for the future.  I'm not even sure the way I (and some others) make music (ie, our workflow) even fits in with the design/future of X1.
 
I'd like to know.
 
 

John T


To directly respond to that, all I've really donw with it so far is load old mixes to assess what kinds of issues I'd have migrating. And I've not found anything yet that it doesn't play back just fine. Dropping in of the old Sonitus EQ instead of the ProChannel in particular, is absolutely seamless.

If you have the VST version,yes - you can drop it in like any plugin  -- but once you 'switch' to the Pro Channel EQ, there's no way back to the "inline" Sonitus EQ.  This has been confirmed by Noel as well.
 
 

John T


It's a nice idea, but it's not at all sensible to publish a public roadmap in a competitive marketplace. I can't see this happening.

John, I generally agree there are serious concerns in doing so; but I do think they could make some general statements without revealing trade/marketing 'secrets' that might soothe the beast a bit.
 
While DAW/Host software definitely is deeply complex, it's also not quite rocket science with respect to tools and directions of a product.  So I do think there can be some mid-ground had here.