UnderTow
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:50:46
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John
A 64 bit OS uses hardware for many security things that are unavailable to 32 bit OSs on the same machine.
What hardware would that be, John? UnderTow
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:53:30
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Scott Lee
Hi Billy,
Indeed. Actually my work computer (audio director / senior sound designer at a video game company) has windows 7 running at 64-bit. Since it was just built and hardware semi new, it wasn't too bad. Though my stable system at home is a completely different situation. It will remain as is until I have to drop the cash for the hardware upgrades. (of which really I am content really with how it is)
I personally can't see any argument with that, Scott. Even for me -- I can afford a high end super duper system, but I can't afford the time right now. But more importantly, my system has been running *EXCELLENT* for quite some time. So just based on sheer performace to date, I don't see the need to upgrade just for the sake of being in the 64bit camp. And if budget is of concern, then all the more reason not to have to go there if one doesn't have to. And I didn't see anything in the sales info for X1 that demands having WIndows 7 64bit.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:54:21
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It stops the 32bit viruses dead in there tracks... they can't squeeze threw the smaller 64bit holes.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 17:57:42
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"For example - I was watching some of the Presonus Studio One videos last week and I did not notice even one that had real MIDI work being shown in it. Almost every video was almost entirely related to audio files and audio recording."
Doesn't that go hand in hand with the way they present that product? I thought the ads said something to he effect that it was for people who wanted to edit multi track audio without distraction.
best regards,
mike
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:01:19
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mike_mccue
"For example - I was watching some of the Presonus Studio One videos last week and I did not notice even one that had real MIDI work being shown in it. Almost every video was almost entirely related to audio files and audio recording."
Doesn't that go hand in hand with the way they present that product? I thought the ads said something to he effect that it was for people who wanted to edit multi track audio without distraction.
best regards,
mike
Perhaps so ...but I must also add, then, that the X1 videos were also not 'focused' on my workflow either. It's only due to my long involvement with Sonar that I somewhat ignored the fact the only thing that was focused was the girl singer / band approach. They didn't show any of what I would call modern day techno artists (not limiting that to 'techno' as a genre, but more in terms of production techniques presented).
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:02:29
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mike_mccue
It stops the 32bit viruses dead in there tracks... they can't squeeze threw the smaller 64bit holes.
I've never had ONE single virus on my DAW and it IS connected to the internet. Not that I would guarantee it couldn't happen, but I"m damn good at protecting myself (being a techy kinda guy). Not an issue for me really.
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:06:53
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You nailed it Billy, I would even go as far to say, its not just Trance/ Electro house, but RAP, industrial, drums and bass, deep house, modren rock, synth based orch scores (Can you say TRON?). I think Cakewalk needs to tap into not just the multi recording aspect of Sonar, but also premote modern day techniques in productions. "I've never had ONE single virus on my DAW"
I never have as well. My audio system is a dedicated DAW workhorse, so no internet. That really doesnt apply to me as well.
post edited by Scott Lee - 2010/12/28 18:10:15
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:11:07
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I think the last time I got a virus it was sent to me by the people that remove the viruses... maybe 5 years ago? Actually it was persistent spy ware and that was on go anywhere web surf rig... not my DAW.
I was just passing on the idea that I get the impression that Presonus is really selling their mixer and application small live combos... I get the impression that it's all about tracking sound that you are already making. So for example if you play soft synths up on stage on your laptop... that content gets sent down the line as audio through the mixer into your portable DAW.
I haven't bothered to look in any detail because I'm hoping to stick around here... so like I say that's just a casual impression.
best regards,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:12:54
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"I would even go as far to say, its not just Trance/ Electro house, but RAP, industrial, drums and bass, deep house, modren rock, synth based orch scores (Can you say TRON?). I think Cakewalk needs to tap into not just the multi recording aspect of Sonar, but also premote modern day techniques in productions."
Yeah, what ever happened to Project 5?
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:14:35
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mike_mccue
I think the last time I got a virus it was sent to me by the people that remove the viruses... maybe 5 years ago? Actually it was persistent spy ware and that was on go anywhere web surf rig... not my DAW.
I was just passing on the idea that I get the impression that Presonus is really selling their mixer and application small live combos... I get the impression that it's all about tracking sound that you are already making. So for example if you play soft synths up on stage on your laptop... that content gets sent down the line as audio through the mixer into your portable DAW.
I haven't bothered to look in any detail because I'm hoping to stick around here... so like I say that's just a casual impression.
best regards,
mike
FWIW, I *generally* don't care if a company focuses their marketing on a targeted audience. That's fine. As long as I also get the tools I need to work I'm ok with all that. But I think sometimes we DO need to pay attention to whom they are targeting, just so we aren't quite as let down when we discover the tools we may need aren't there, or aren't 'finished' yet.
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yorolpal
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:24:14
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I'm a bit surprised to hear you say you've got plenty of instrument and plugin headroom on your 32bit systems Billy. My machine before this new 64bit system was a pretty fast dual core with 4 gigs of memory and the "3gig switch" thrown. More than one instance of Omnisphere and a GR4 or Amplitube 3 or two...not to mention a Kontakt4 and that was all she wrote. Of course I could freeze tracks...and did...but that was not a great solution either. On my new box I can't throw enough instances of Omni, A3, K4 or, really, anything at it to make it bog down. I've got projects absolutely loaded with instruments and plugs on upwards of forty tracks now and I can barely get my system to get its heart rate up. Speed, power and headroom. Yuuummmm, Pappa likes.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:27:57
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mike_mccue
"I would even go as far to say, its not just Trance/ Electro house, but RAP, industrial, drums and bass, deep house, modren rock, synth based orch scores (Can you say TRON?). I think Cakewalk needs to tap into not just the multi recording aspect of Sonar, but also premote modern day techniques in productions."
Yeah, what ever happened to Project 5?
I think one answer may be: Ableton Live.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:31:59
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yorolpal
I'm a bit surprised to hear you say you've got plenty of instrument and plugin headroom on your 32bit systems Billy. My machine before this new 64bit system was a pretty fast dual core with 4 gigs of memory and the "3gig switch" thrown. More than one instance of Omnisphere and a GR4 or Amplitube 3 or two...not to mention a Kontakt4 and that was all she wrote. Of course I could freeze tracks...and did...but that was not a great solution either. On my new box I can't throw enough instances of Omni, A3, K4 or, really, anything at it to make it bog down. I've got projects absolutely loaded with instruments and plugs on upwards of forty tracks now and I can barely get my system to get its heart rate up. Speed, power and headroom. Yuuummmm, Pappa likes.
Ol Pal, I can't honestly say what it is I do differently with my system that allows me to run big plugins without having to freeze, but the fact is I can and do. I only freeze when I'm ready to stay in the 'mixing/mastering' groove. Or on that rare occasion when some plugins or combination thereof cause me headaches or logjams. I've done projects that actually had Trilian, 2 instances of Omnisphere, Maschine, and a bunch more less taxing plugins (FabFilter Twin2, Z3ta+, Kore2, etc) without any problems (other than ones anyone would hit, like plugin-clash as I call it). So yeah -- it's one reason I've never felt any urgency to the whole 64bit thing, even forgetting the "time" it takes to setup from scratch.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:32:35
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All I was trying to say is that it seemed to me that Presonus WAS trying to define limits to the imagination so as to make a certain user group more comfortable or perhaps less inhibited. I think the target group is a group of musicians that have an ensemble already playing from their book. An ensemble that is ready to start recording material they already have rehearsed. I can testify that the world is full of great young ensembles that are absolutely terrified of multi tracking and playing to a click. They cling to the myth that it's only cool if everyone plays live at the same time. I Think the Presonus mixer/app combo is being offered to exactly that user group. It may be possible, but they don't seem to promote it as a sketchbook or idea developer. So, my guess is that it was not written at all for total ITB production but carefully matched to their hardware console and basic bread and butter mixing. Which brings me too... it frequently seems to me that ITB technical musicians have all the same needs as old fashioned acoustic instrument musicians. It seems to me that single greatest advantage for a technical musician to work exclusively ITB is so that you may enjoy the wonderful power of sync to tempo without having to route a whole mess of stuff around a studio. Other than that, when a techno guy says "I'm using 16 synths" I think "big deal I used to mix a gang of Vietnamese kids that had 16 synths on stage. They rocked it and brought smoking hot girls to the dance club." I just thought it was another gig standing FOH ad making sure everyone heard what they wanted. Having said that, I always wonder why all techno musicians would not want all the basic audio editing stuff that a *audio only* person that never intends to use a single MIDI feature demands. Now, having said that, I understand the benefit and power of ITB sync and wouldn't settle for anything less... and so I'm imaging somehing like Studio One isn't going to satisfy a ITB tecnho enthusiast and probably not me either. In fact, my learning on PT is somewhat hampered by the fact that I really enjoy MIDI in SONAR (yea, it could e better) and ProTools doesn't have the MIDI features I'm accustomed to. Anyways, I'm just a babbling. I wasn't sure if perhaps you think I am disagreeing with you? For what ever it's worth... I think I'm agreeing with you. all the best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2010/12/28 18:37:07
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:33:40
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I can barely get my system to get its heart rate up. Speed, power and headroom. Yuuummmm, Pappa likes. Ol Pal, that's what Vodka is for, no? LOL
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UnderTow
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:34:08
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ba_midi
mike_mccue
"I would even go as far to say, its not just Trance/ Electro house, but RAP, industrial, drums and bass, deep house, modren rock, synth based orch scores (Can you say TRON?). I think Cakewalk needs to tap into not just the multi recording aspect of Sonar, but also premote modern day techniques in productions."
Yeah, what ever happened to Project 5?
I think one answer may be: Ableton Live.
Or Cubase. Or Logic. They are the three most used DAWs for electronica as far as I know. I'm not sure about Logic but Cubase and Live both have gapless audio engines. As long as Sonar doesn't, it will never get far in the electronic music genre except maybe with people that don't realise that there are DAWs that don't gap when you change the loop points.  UnderTow
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:38:33
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What if you explained that it was a 64bit gap?
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UnderTow
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:39:09
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mike_mccue
Having said that, I always wonder why all techno musicians would not want all the basic audio editing stuff that a *audio only* person that never intends to use a single MIDI feature demands.
They do... and a few extra's... UnderTow
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:40:45
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"Or Cubase. Or Logic."
Actually Logic is the raining champ of Trance/electro house currently. Armin Van Buren, Sean Tyas, Above and Beyond, etc. Live has also been a heavy contender with Airbase, Deadmau5 and allot of producers/DJ's using the matrix for live trigger sets (like Thrillseekers live extreme) or NI's machine basically for beat mashing. Thrillsseekers (Steve) still uses Cubase as does Ferry Corsten, but its not a prevalent as it once was in the dance music scene 6-7 year ago.
post edited by Scott Lee - 2010/12/28 18:46:59
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:46:01
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UnderTow
mike_mccue
Having said that, I always wonder why all techno musicians would not want all the basic audio editing stuff that a *audio only* person that never intends to use a single MIDI feature demands.
They do... and a few extra's...
UnderTow
Yes, yes, yes. Which is why I don't understand the us vs them routine that goes on here. When I, posing as an audio guy, make demands that the audio editing works... I can't understand why the guys that need all that and more aren't at my back making the same demands. Instead, I sense a frustration, as if I am proposing that the balance be tipped in the favor of audio over synth... or something like that. To me it's all audio... and obviously the techno style needs a lot of extra cool techno tools... which work best when the basic audio stuff works. Is that how they do it in Logic? all the best, mike
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UnderTow
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:47:00
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Scott Lee
"Or Cubase. Or Logic."
Actually Logic is the raining champ of Trance/electro house currently. Armin Van Buren,
LOL. Great example of someone that doesn't know his way around a DAW. He has someone do that for him and is not the only one but I digress...
Sean Tyas, Above and Beyond, etc. Live has also been a heavy contender with Airbase, Deadmau5 and allot of producers/DJ's using the matrix for live trigger sets (like Thrillseekers live extreme) or NI's machine basically for beat mashing.
Thrillsseeker (Steve) still uses cubase as does Ferry corsten, but its not a prevalent as it once was in the dance music scene.
With the commercial names there might be more Logic users but I am intimately familiar with the scene and Cubase is more prevalent than Logic in my experience. Not that it matters. For this discussion the only thing that counts is that it isn't Sonar. It could have been... I remember Cubase using friends drooling when I showed them I could just drop a loop sample into Sonar, hit CTRL-L and turn it into a tempo synced ACID/groove-loop so many years ago when Cubase didn't support REX files yet. What happend to that technological lead? UnderTow
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:51:35
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"LOL. Great example of someone that doesn't know his way around a DAW"
I've worked with Armin and he knows logic fine. On mirage he co-produced most of the title tracks especially with his brother playing the guitar bits. You might be thinking of Tiesto. Thats another story.
Most of the videos posted on Future Music Magazines youtubes page of the electronic artists are using Logic. Have a look.
http://www.youtube.com/user/FutureMusicMagazine?blend=2&ob=1
post edited by Scott Lee - 2010/12/28 18:55:35
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UnderTow
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:53:24
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mike_mccue
Yes, yes, yes.
Which is why I don't understand the us vs them routine that goes on here.
Nor do I. When I, posing as an audio guy, make demands that the audio editing works... I can't understand why the guys that need all that and more aren't at my back making the same demands.
I am!  Actually, I have been making similar requests for over half a decade... To me it's all audio... and obviously the techno style needs a lot of extra cool techno tools... which work best when the basic audio stuff works.
Absolutely! I really liked the idea (on paper) of the Matrix View alas the gapping audio engine makes it a joke... (Just an example). Is that how they do it in Logic?
All the electronic artists I know use a combination of audio and MIDI. There is a lot of bouncing of MIDI parts to audio then adding effects, re bouncing, reversing, more effects, cutting, chopping, pasting, more effects, more processing... maybe reloading in a sampler. re-triggering then bouncing again etc etc. There is a lot of audio stuff going on. UnderTow
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gtbouts
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:54:00
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Have to agree there are too many "show-stoppers" for X1(a) to be "production" quality. I've gone back to 8.5.3 just so I can meet my dead lines.
gtbouts www.gtbouts.comSONAR Platinum 64-Bit Win 10 (Home) 64-Bit i7-3770 3.60 GHz 16 GB RAM HD: 3 - 1 TB Hitachi SATA Drives NVDIA GeForce 9400 GT Interface: VS 100 Roland JX-1 Akai MPK 25
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UnderTow
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:57:16
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Scott Lee
"LOL. Great example of someone that doesn't know his way around a DAW"
I've worked with Armin and he knows logic fine. On mirage he co-produced most of the title tracks especially with his brother playing the guitar bits. You might be thinking of Tiesto. Thats another story.
Heh, that is indeed another story but I am basing my comment on an interview with Armin. He kept referring to his engineer. Based on the article the engineer did practically everything. Programming the synths, doing the mix, doing the processing etc. If Armin did his own stuff why would he himself keep saying that the engineer was dong it all? I'll see if I can dig out that interview again... UnderTow PS: Anyway, it is irrelevant, he is not using Sonar!
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:57:54
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UnderTow
ba_midi
mike_mccue
"I would even go as far to say, its not just Trance/ Electro house, but RAP, industrial, drums and bass, deep house, modren rock, synth based orch scores (Can you say TRON?). I think Cakewalk needs to tap into not just the multi recording aspect of Sonar, but also premote modern day techniques in productions."
Yeah, what ever happened to Project 5?
I think one answer may be: Ableton Live.
Or Cubase. Or Logic. They are the three most used DAWs for electronica as far as I know. I'm not sure about Logic but Cubase and Live both have gapless audio engines. As long as Sonar doesn't, it will never get far in the electronic music genre except maybe with people that don't realise that there are DAWs that don't gap when you change the loop points.
UnderTow
I have to say I agree. I don't have personal experience with all, but Live has incredibly gapless performance doing almost anything in it.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:58:46
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"All the electronic artists I know use a combination of audio and MIDI. There is a lot of bouncing of MIDI parts to audio then adding effects, re bouncing, reversing, more effects, cutting, chopping, pasting, more effects, more processing... maybe reloading in a sampler. re-triggering then bouncing again etc etc. There is a lot of audio stuff going on. "
Can we rephrase that to something like all the actual electronic artists?
I think there's a lot of people that aren't actually doing it... and haven't fully grasped the need for the basic audio stuff.
If that makes sense.
I know that occasionally we have disagreements... but I feel a solidarity with you because it seems we share basic insights... so obviously I know you've been advocating for what I advocate for for the past 5 years etc. Thanks for taking the stand.
BTW, the Dunning Kruger youTube link was very helpful for me last week. ;-) I knew I was normal but couldn't figure out how to explain it because I'm not smart enough.
all the best,
mike
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 18:59:02
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"All the electronic artists I know use a combination of audio and MIDI. There is a lot of bouncing of MIDI parts to audio then adding effects, re bouncing, reversing, more effects, cutting, chopping, pasting, more effects, more processing... maybe reloading in a sampler. re-triggering then bouncing again etc etc. There is a lot of audio stuff going on."
Excatly, this is why Billy and I are throwing on the table that Cakewalk needs to market Sonar more then a live recording DAW. Id like to see them really promote modern day techniques used in our type of music as well as many other popular genres.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:01:35
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mike_mccue
UnderTow
mike_mccue
Having said that, I always wonder why all techno musicians would not want all the basic audio editing stuff that a *audio only* person that never intends to use a single MIDI feature demands.
They do... and a few extra's...
UnderTow
Yes, yes, yes.
Which is why I don't understand the us vs them routine that goes on here.
When I, posing as an audio guy, make demands that the audio editing works... I can't understand why the guys that need all that and more aren't at my back making the same demands.
Instead, I sense a frustration, as if I am proposing that the balance be tipped in the favor of audio over synth... or something like that.
To me it's all audio... and obviously the techno style needs a lot of extra cool techno tools... which work best when the basic audio stuff works.
Is that how they do it in Logic?
all the best,
mike
Just for the record - many of us do not take the position of "us vs them" ... it's more about "AND" versus "OR". I can think about me AND you, as opposed to me OR you. (you being the generic you that is). I do see some of the "versus" stuff, but not everyone takes that approach. I certainly don't think I do - and I hope not, at least.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:03:22
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Are you getting the idea that I'm 100% with you but simply feel Cakewalk should make the basics work first, or should have 10 years ago?
We've all been handicapped by the cart before the horse development.
The waste in time and now this whole "oh we're starting over again rig a ma roll" has not created a best of breed result.
all the best,
mike
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