ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:04:06
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Absolutely! I really liked the idea (on paper) of the Matrix View alas the gapping audio engine makes it a joke... (Just an example). Don't get me started about the Matrix View. I'd probably get banned like Dr Hash LOL
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:07:27
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gtbouts
Have to agree there are too many "show-stoppers" for X1(a) to be "production" quality. I've gone back to 8.5.3 just so I can meet my dead lines.
I'm keeping X1 on my system and 'playing with it' (actually did 2 mixes with it, but with some teeth pulling to get them done). BUT, I'm definitely sticking with 8.5.3 for the serious work for now.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:07:28
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ba_midi
mike_mccue
UnderTow
mike_mccue
Having said that, I always wonder why all techno musicians would not want all the basic audio editing stuff that a *audio only* person that never intends to use a single MIDI feature demands.
They do... and a few extra's...
UnderTow
Yes, yes, yes.
Which is why I don't understand the us vs them routine that goes on here.
When I, posing as an audio guy, make demands that the audio editing works... I can't understand why the guys that need all that and more aren't at my back making the same demands.
Instead, I sense a frustration, as if I am proposing that the balance be tipped in the favor of audio over synth... or something like that.
To me it's all audio... and obviously the techno style needs a lot of extra cool techno tools... which work best when the basic audio stuff works.
Is that how they do it in Logic?
all the best,
mike
Just for the record - many of us do not take the position of "us vs them" ... it's more about "AND" versus "OR".
I can think about me AND you, as opposed to me OR you. (you being the generic you that is).
I do see some of the "versus" stuff, but not everyone takes that approach.
I certainly don't think I do - and I hope not, at least.
You set a pretty good example. Personally I am pluralist and I believe that anyone that thinks they are Modern, meaning living after 1908 in USA, shold be very confortable with pluralism because in my mind that is the great theme behind the modern art movements. It's kinda like that TV show Hill Street Blues. Lots of stuff happening all at once. best, mike
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John
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:08:01
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Not like Dr. Hash. I know Dr. Hash and you are no Dr. Hash.
I'm glad you're not.
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:10:13
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"He kept referring to his engineer"
Oh absolutely, he does have help. He works on a state of trance weekly, tours with DJ sets, promotes, and does try to fit in new armada material under his name. Usually though when he releases an official album like "Mirage back in October" he does produce the headlining tracks or at least co-produces them with another artist. He's actually been using Logic for years with a bit of dabbling in live recently.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:10:44
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Scott Lee
"All the electronic artists I know use a combination of audio and MIDI. There is a lot of bouncing of MIDI parts to audio then adding effects, re bouncing, reversing, more effects, cutting, chopping, pasting, more effects, more processing... maybe reloading in a sampler. re-triggering then bouncing again etc etc. There is a lot of audio stuff going on."
Excatly, this is why Billy and I are throwing on the table that Cakewalk needs to market Sonar more then a live recording DAW. Id like to see them really promote modern day techniques used in our type of music as well as many other popular genres.
And I would add : "And give us more of the tools we need to do so" ;) Frankly at this point it's mostly bug fixes I need. Even if they never fix or change or improve the Matrix, I have many ways to accomplish the same thing. SO I just want a stable, working product equal to and hopefully better than 8.5.3.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:11:54
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John
Not like Dr. Hash. I know Dr. Hash and you are no Dr. Hash.
I'm glad you're not.
LOL thanks John ;)
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Scott Lee
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:15:46
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Scott Lee
"He kept referring to his engineer"
Oh absolutely, he does have help. He works on a state of trance weekly, tours with DJ sets, promotes, and does try to fit in new armada material under his name. Usually though when he releases an official album like "Mirage back in October" he does produce the headlining tracks or at least co-produces them with another artist. He's actually been using Logic for years with a bit of dabbling in live recently.
On occasion I see some people say things like "You can't be all things to all people" (we might have even discussed this before; forgive me if we have). I think a great software host SHOULD be all things to all people. Just like a REAL studio was and is. There should be no limits. And it shouldn't be 'style/genre' based UNLESS that is the clear goal. I do think a product such as Ableton Live is NOT going to meet the needs of the 'band' recording camp - even though it could (not easily perhaps). But Live is designed to be something else, clearly. Sonar, Logic, Cubase, Reaper, etc -- they all CAN be anything. Some of us have proven that already with Sonar. But we'll need a little more cooperation from the company and its devs, I'd submit.
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ba_midi
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UnderTow
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:18:20
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mike_mccue
"All the electronic artists I know use a combination of audio and MIDI. There is a lot of bouncing of MIDI parts to audio then adding effects, re bouncing, reversing, more effects, cutting, chopping, pasting, more effects, more processing... maybe reloading in a sampler. re-triggering then bouncing again etc etc. There is a lot of audio stuff going on. "
Can we rephrase that to something like all the actual electronic artists?
Probably.
I think there's a lot of people that aren't actually doing it... and haven't fully grasped the need for the basic audio stuff.
Which people are you referring to? Electronic musicians or other genres? Sorry you lost me there. :-) But yes I think that the basic audio stuff is applicable to any DAW users. From classical recording engineers to electronic musicians passing by mastering engineers, restoration work, audio post production and scoring to film. We all need good solid audio tools. I know that occasionally we have disagreements... but I feel a solidarity with you because it seems we share basic insights... so obviously I know you've been advocating for what I advocate for for the past 5 years etc. Thanks for taking the stand.
Don't thank me. It is all self-interest. I still want Sonar to be the best DAW on the planet. Now if only the bakers would just listen to me... ;-) BTW, the Dunning Kruger youTube link was very helpful for me last week. ;-) I knew I was normal but couldn't figure out how to explain it because I'm not smart enough.
Heh. That video is very handy. We all know the experience it describes but it explains is clearly and succinctly. I used to call it the "You are too stupid to realise how stupid you a are syndrome". Dunning Kruger Effect sounds better. ;-) UnderTow
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:18:39
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ba_midi
Scott Lee
"All the electronic artists I know use a combination of audio and MIDI. There is a lot of bouncing of MIDI parts to audio then adding effects, re bouncing, reversing, more effects, cutting, chopping, pasting, more effects, more processing... maybe reloading in a sampler. re-triggering then bouncing again etc etc. There is a lot of audio stuff going on."
Excatly, this is why Billy and I are throwing on the table that Cakewalk needs to market Sonar more then a live recording DAW. Id like to see them really promote modern day techniques used in our type of music as well as many other popular genres.
And I would add : "And give us more of the tools we need to do so" ;)
Frankly at this point it's mostly bug fixes I need. Even if they never fix or change or improve the Matrix, I have many ways to accomplish the same thing.
SO I just want a stable, working product equal to and hopefully better than 8.5.3.
Well for the record... as a live recordist... SONAR is not marketed as a live recording DAW. A live recording DAW would be marketed as stripped down with no toys and 1000 and 1% reliability. I think Cakewalk has brutalized it's reputation by maketing SONAR as a swiis army knife and that's why the guys down at Guitar Center don't even know it exists. It's only identity is as the first 64bit mix engine... that comes with Boost 11... or something like that. The whole emphasis is on bundled *stuff* and now the discount pricing has become the big selling point. Just throwing out some perspective from my viewpoint. all the best, mike
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:21:11
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" that other minor little thing that comes in SO handy .... PAN knob ;)"
Now your pushing it! 
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:23:50
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"Which people are you referring to? Electronic musicians or other genres? Sorry you lost me there. :-) But yes I think that the basic audio stuff is applicable to any DAW users. From classical recording engineers to electronic musicians passing by mastering engineers, restoration work, audio post production and scoring to film. We all need good solid audio tools."
I am referring to the wave of enthusiasts that don't understand that regardless of how easy a great dj makes it seem that it is all based on experience, craftsmanship and very hard work. I'm talking about the folks that sincerely think you can buy enough software to make up for talent.
Does that make sense?
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:26:11
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"why the guys down at Guitar Center don't even know it exists."
To be fair though, it seems all PC based audio software is basically dust in the wind (Not doing a Boston plug here :) )
If its not a Mac / PC product they just dont seem to promote it much let along take it seriously.
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UnderTow
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:37:11
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mike_mccue
"Which people are you referring to? Electronic musicians or other genres? Sorry you lost me there. :-) But yes I think that the basic audio stuff is applicable to any DAW users. From classical recording engineers to electronic musicians passing by mastering engineers, restoration work, audio post production and scoring to film. We all need good solid audio tools."
I am referring to the wave of enthusiasts that don't understand that regardless of how easy a great dj makes it seem that it is all based on experience, craftsmanship and very hard work. I'm talking about the folks that sincerely think you can buy enough software to make up for talent.
Does that make sense?
Gotcha. That does indeed happen (especially if they have been advised by the sales droid in your local "music shop") but I think people quickly wake-up. Except maybe in one area: The quality of their mixing. It seems people are more inclined to want to buy an expensive plugin or a hardware unit rather than spend the same money on adding acoustic treatment to their rooms so that they can actually hear what they are doing. That latter would be so much more effective in improving the sound of their mixes... Aaah the wonders of marketing... What was that famous quote by that famous Indian musician? Something like "Fan: Oh you have so much talent! Musician: Oh yes, it can't have anything to do with all the hard work and hours of practising...". Well, the serious and dedicated ones quickly find out... and then do what has to be done to overcome any limitations... UnderTow
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keith
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:56:39
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Scott Lee
To be fair though, it seems all PC based audio software is basically dust in the wind (Not doing a Boston plug here :) )
That's good, because Boston didn't record that tune. RE: GC. Wouldn't asking for advice in GC be about as equivalent to doing the same on any internet forum? "I heard..."... "my brother's friend's cousin uses..."... "everyone knows that the 'industry standard' is..."... "I bought a $60 Monster patch cable, and my setup sounds at least 20-40% better..."... that sorta thing.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 19:59:41
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Scott Lee
"why the guys down at Guitar Center don't even know it exists."
To be fair though, it seems all PC based audio software is basically dust in the wind (Not doing a Boston plug here :) )
If its not a Mac / PC product they just dont seem to promote it much let along take it seriously.
I didn't ask them any tricky questions about the other brands to see if they knew anything particular... but the shelf display had bunches of PC ready software on display... just no SONAR X1 or 8.5 The other products all have strong identities for some particular interest as has been discussed here. Live, Cubase, Studio One, PT, Band in a Box, Reason, etc. They also stocked Melodyne, Autotune, Kontakt, Komplete and stuff like that. anyways, best regards, mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 20:03:47
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keith
Scott Lee
To be fair though, it seems all PC based audio software is basically dust in the wind (Not doing a Boston plug here :) )
That's good, because Boston didn't record that tune.
RE: GC. Wouldn't asking for advice in GC be about as equivalent to doing the same on any internet forum? "I heard..."... "my brother's friend's cousin uses..."... "everyone knows that the 'industry standard' is..."... "I bought a $60 Monster patch cable, and my setup sounds at least 20-40% better..."... that sorta thing.
I had more than a feeling that someone was going to point that out.
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Middleman
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 20:18:35
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Mike, Smoking response which gave me Peace of Mind.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 20:30:52
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The first album I bought to use on my very own bedroom stereo: 
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 21:48:04
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"That's good, because Boston didn't record that tune."
Actually it had a double meaning. Sonar X1 was like Dust in the Wind at guitar center of which Cakewalk headquarters is in Bos...... ah nevermind ;)
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keith
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 21:52:40
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mike_mccue
keith
Scott Lee
To be fair though, it seems all PC based audio software is basically dust in the wind (Not doing a Boston plug here :) )
That's good, because Boston didn't record that tune.
RE: GC. Wouldn't asking for advice in GC be about as equivalent to doing the same on any internet forum? "I heard..."... "my brother's friend's cousin uses..."... "everyone knows that the 'industry standard' is..."... "I bought a $60 Monster patch cable, and my setup sounds at least 20-40% better..."... that sorta thing.
I had more than a feeling that someone was going to point that out.
Well I hope my minor correction gives you some peace of mind. Now. About those pro bowl selections...
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keith
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 21:54:03
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Middleman
Mike, Smoking response which gave me Peace of Mind.
D'oh! I'm always a day late and a witty pun short.
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keith
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 21:58:43
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Scott Lee
"That's good, because Boston didn't record that tune."
Actually it had a double meaning. Sonar X1 was like Dust in the Wind at guitar center of which Cakewalk headquarters is in Bos...... ah nevermind ;)
Ah, OK. I figured there was a less-than-obvious technical reason behind your apparent... er, shall we call it: musical faux pas?  As long as we're not mixing up our Rockin' 70's Bands references, I think we're all good.
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Crg
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 23:52:40
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Sure Windows 7 is the new fashion but that doesn't negate XP. Okay, whatever dude.
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Crg
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/28 23:54:51
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Right now, my hardware runs better on this setup then any other system, so again until I see a real advantage, its not going to happen anytime in the near furture Okay, whatever dude.
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ba_midi
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/29 00:20:25
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Crg
Sure Windows 7 is the new fashion but that doesn't negate XP.
Okay, whatever dude.
Cool dude ;)
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/29 07:45:14
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Kansas offered power synth sounds to a new audience.
Boston taught us that just like a Hammond Organ, that multi layerd guitar tones mashed together to interact in a stream equates to a synth as well.
Boston taught me that my guitar was a tone generator and that my pedal board was an analog synths.
So it all seems pertinent.
The birth of popular tech music.
:-)
(and yes I know about the earlier stuff)
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Scott Lee
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Re:A PLEA: To Cakewalk and staff.
2010/12/29 08:55:37
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"It's kinda like that TV show Hill Street Blues."
My Father David worked with the Director of Photography on all the lighting down at CBS Studios Radford near Hollywood, Ca as the Gaffer on every Hill Street Blues show back in the day. Look for a David Lee on the end credits, he's their every week.
Best,
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