Hemul
Community moderators have worked very well in many forums I have used. Definitely worth giving it a try. Just keep coming here anyway, Cakewalkers!

I spend almost all my time in the Sonar X forum and although I have "mod powers," I've never banned anyone (except for spammers). Most of my mod activity is deleting duplicate posts, correcting spelling errors in the thread titles, (rarely) moving a thread to a more appropriate forum, and putting "solved" if the person who said their problem was solved didn't do so. There have been a few trolls, but the community basically humiliated them so they apparently went off to find someplace that didn't have intelligent people . 
 
I'd like to think I'm a good example of someone from the community doing moderation. By any standard this is a pretty civil group, and I doubt heavy-handed moderation would be necessary. 
 

I like the idea of leveraging community moderators as Willy outlined. One of the things I appreciate is the fact that Cakewalk is asking for feedback before making changes. While many of us spend an inordinate amount of time in certain pages within the forum, we are always aware that this is a corporate community forum. Knowing that Cakewalk engages with us to talk about how and why we use their forum means a great deal. Thanks, Bakers, for listening.

Willy Jones [Cakewalk]RE: points/reputation - we don't plan on addressing this yet. The only area we are interested in playing with new forum features is the idea's section we are proposing where we'd like to try out the voting. Realistically if we ever did go to a more reputation-based (and it would be reputation not arbitrary points) model we would look to something like StackOverflow/StackExchange as a model. I've had rough experiences with the microsoft support forums as well and wouldn't consider that a good fit for this community.

 
Personally I don't see any issues with any kind of points based system as it's easy to just ignore them if they don't provide any value to me.
 
Post count is often useful on a forum to see if someone is a brand new user (or spammer) and can put their question in some sort of context - for instance if someone has thousands of posts and asks what seems like a simple question it's less likely to be a simple newbie kind of problem.
 

In the software forum there are about 20+ threads a day from people or companies noting new products or deals (which is great, btw) which will drown out the hardware and DAW threads that are often very informative.

 
This is a good point - going forward I'm not sure that we'll actually allow these types of posts on our forum. Let's face it, KVR is a much better source of information for this type of info and we've already seen a few incidents with representatives of another company getting into arguments with users on our forum. The DAW and hardware sections are useful complements to our products. The software forum is starting to smell a lot more like a spam bin/advertising bulletin board.
 
There is a lot of good discussion around software that is valid and helpful to users.  Would it make sense to limit the scope of conversation to discussion about compatibility/tools/features of a software product and not allow advertisements or promotions?

How about just adding a "deals" subforum instead? It's often helpful to me when someone here, whose opinion carries much more weight because I know them by their participation here, recommends a product that goes on sale.
 
And otherwise you might end up with a gray area where people start or bump a thread to discuss something every time it goes in sale.

"There have been a few trolls, but the community basically humiliated them so they apparently went off to find someplace that didn't have intelligent people ". .. Anderton
 
I like the way this was put. I think many of us have asked for some members of the forum have mod status. I would be for this as long as there are sufficient safeguards to prevent abuse.
 
The ability to have a review of actions taken so that a community mod does not have the last or final word on an action taken. This would be left to CW only. CW would always have the final word.
 
An informal system set up for posters to submit dissent on an action taken.
 
A very clear list of duties and responsibilities for mods and regular posters. A list of limitations that  community mods are subject to.
 
A way for a poster to petition for the removal of mod status of a community mod.
 
A "bill of rights" that all members have.
 
I may propose more if I come up with more ideas.
 
I think its clear that my concern is to control abuse.  Actually I don't believe that thoughtful members offered this status would want to abuse it. The forum needs to also appear free of mod abuse as well as actually being free of it.
In the end I like the notion and have posted about it in the past.
 
We shall see how this works out.    
 

I think the odds of mod abuse here would be very small. The most flagrant examples I've seen are where the mods are part of a company and feel the need to control anything negative. Obviously Cakewalk doesn't take this approach, and I believe this transparency is one of the reasons why this forum is held in such high regard. I don't see any reason why "outside" mods would not want to let the forum exhibit the same kind of transparency that Cakewalk allows.

Larry Jones
Sonar is an extremely complex application, often used by artists, who are not known for technical prowess, therefore likely to ask for help on matters of "pilot error." THESE FOLKS WILL STILL NEED ANSWERS.

 
Of course, but the question is whether a forum called "Problem Reports" would be the appropriate venue IF the main purpose of the forum is to  give the bakers a strong bug identification/fixing resource. For example the "Kontakt takes a long time to render" example I gave would probably be better placed in a Sonar forum, where it would be seen by people who use Kontakt with Sonar. Obviously the forum definition is up to Cakewalk, and depends on the function they want this forum to serve. I could be interpreting "Problem Reports" incorrectly, but the beauty of Cakewalk soliciting community comments is that issues can be resolved before anything is rolled out.
 

To them (us), a pilot error issue looks exactly the same as a reproducible bug.

 
That's the advantage of having a moderator. The question can be moved if it's of general interest, or deleted once it's answered if it's so specific that the odds of others experiencing the problem are very remote.
 

And secondly, there are, in fact, legitimate issues that are 100% reproducible on my system that strongly resemble pilot error, even though they are not.

 
If there is a problem that is 100% reproducible, then I would think a forum called "Problem Reports" would be the ideal place to post it.
 

This is one of the best user groups of its kind I've ever found, partly because other users usually don't try to judge the legitimacy of peoples' technical problems. They just try to help fix 'em.

 
And that's great, but again, it comes down to how Cakewalk sees a forum called "Problem Reports." My assumption is that it would be about taking advantage of the community testing Sonar in a gazillion different scenarios, and therefore uncovering issues that even years of testing at Sonar HQ might never uncover.
 
 
 

Having been a senior moderator on a different forum for over ten years, one thing that worked for us was a tiered approach.  Certain people always stand out as potential moderator candidates so, in a forum that's private for the senior moderators, it's discussed who to offer the job to.  This person (or persons) is then given some power and a probation period.  If they prove they can handle it, AND they still want to handle it (some find they don't feel comfortable), then they are made a full moderator.  
 
The nastier stuff like banning a member, fixing the database and forum maintenance is left to the senior mods, but the bulk of the day-to-day stuff is handled at the standard moderator level (most of what Craig mentioned above).  Usually, these moderators can fix things in a post (malformed links, typos, removing duplicate posts, censoring the occasional expletive), subtly intervene in a hot topic to keep it civil, or lock a topic that is either started by a troll/spammer or getting out of hand.  They are required to add a line to the topic to show they've been in there (e.g., "[Edit:  Fixed typo in link. - John Smith]") and they also put links to any topics they lock in a moderators forum for discussion.  They aren't allowed to delete non-duplicate topics (after a review a senior moderator would either do this, or simply moved the locked topic to the moderator forum so it can be referred back to later).  They're also not allowed to punish members (only a senior moderator can ban a member temporarily or permanently).
 
Failure to add an edit line or put a link in the moderators forum can lead to losing their moderator status.  Knowing these checks and balances are there make the rest of the members feel better about being moderated.  Unexplained edits or topic locking causes a LOT of friction and, usually, a mass exodus of members.  If they show they are responsible then, eventually, they may be asked to be a senior moderator if a vacancy occurs.  We've only had to fill two in the last 11 years when one got a new job and started his own forum and another passed away so this isn't something that happens often!
 
For comparison, this other forum has about 260,000 posts over the last four years and five months (we prune down to four years every March) with almost 4,700 members.  The forum is actually much quieter now than it used to be compared to the 2007-2012 time frame when we had over 58 million page hits.

All I'm saying is there should be a place where users can get answers from other users about the workings of Cakewalk products, even if the questions do not rise to the level of "bug." Just guessing, but I'll bet that type of interaction is two thirds of what goes on in the Sonar forum now. Of course the company needs to identify and track real code issues, but if everyday, simple "how to" questions (even those asked and answered in the past) don't have a place here, the value is drastically reduced.
***********EDITED TO CATCH UP WITH CRAIG**********************

Anderton

Larry Jones
May I suggest a dedicated "How To Do This" section, separate from the "This Doesn't Work" section?

 
I have a different suggestion...maybe "Problem Reports" would be more Cakewalk-facing and "official" to resolve software issues, but also have a "Users Helping Users" forum where people could throw questions open to the community. Again if it's moderated, then someone having an issue that's actually a bug could be moved/escalated to the "Problem Reports" forum.

YES!

I know that we all have our favorite places to hang out in the forums, and that you are not really changing the forum structure if you are not rearranging them, combining them, adding or dropping certain areas. I have gotten to where there are about only 3 forums that I regularly check out during the course of a day, the Techniques, Software and Coffee House. The Software Forum has become a really handy place for me to quickly look to see if there are any good sales going on. I like it that experienced and trusted users have the opportunity to give their thoughts and opinions on the stuff that is out there. It is unfortunate that there have been several 3rd Party Companies that have gotten on the Software Forum and got in spats with users, but I guess if it was me, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, I would just regulate the 3rd Party Companies.

I really like it that the Cakewalk forums offer so many different category's for these types of discussions, it makes it possible for me to spend the majority of my time at Cakes site. It seems like that would be the benefit of Cakewalk having such a growing, thriving, and busy forum site. You can go to a forum like Gibson's LP forum and there may only be 1 to 2 posts a day in each category.

craigb
Having been a senior moderator on a different forum for over ten years, one thing that worked for us was a tiered approach.  Certain people always stand out as potential moderator candidates so, in a forum that's private for the senior moderators, it's discussed who to offer the job to.  This person (or persons) is then given some power and a probation period.  If they prove they can handle it, AND they still want to handle it (some find they don't feel comfortable), then they are made a full moderator.  
 
The nastier stuff like banning a member, fixing the database and forum maintenance is left to the senior mods, but the bulk of the day-to-day stuff is handled at the standard moderator level (most of what Craig mentioned above).  Usually, these moderators can fix things in a post (malformed links, typos, removing duplicate posts, censoring the occasional expletive), subtly intervene in a hot topic to keep it civil, or lock a topic that is either started by a troll/spammer or getting out of hand.  They are required to add a line to the topic to show they've been in there (e.g., "[Edit:  Fixed typo in link. - John Smith]") and they also put links to any topics they lock in a moderators forum for discussion.  They aren't allowed to delete non-duplicate topics (after a review a senior moderator would either do this, or simply moved the locked topic to the moderator forum so it can be referred back to later).  They're also not allowed to punish members (only a senior moderator can ban a member temporarily or permanently).
 
Failure to add an edit line or put a link in the moderators forum can lead to losing their moderator status.  Knowing these checks and balances are there make the rest of the members feel better about being moderated.  Unexplained edits or topic locking causes a LOT of friction and, usually, a mass exodus of members.  If they show they are responsible then, eventually, they may be asked to be a senior moderator if a vacancy occurs.  We've only had to fill two in the last 11 years when one got a new job and started his own forum and another passed away so this isn't something that happens often!
 
For comparison, this other forum has about 260,000 posts over the last four years and five months (we prune down to four years every March) with almost 4,700 members.  The forum is actually much quieter now than it used to be compared to the 2007-2012 time frame when we had over 58 million page hits.

Yes, this.
 
That is a much more experienced description of what I was hamfistedly trying to convey above. Considering this is new, therefore there aren't any senior mods yet, the current Admins (the Bakers and Craig A) would act as the senior mods for a year or so.
 
Moderation will always tick someone off and it is easy for mods to get out of control. It is all about wise choices that will reflect the will of the site owners... in this case an actual business enterprise outside of the webosphere (Cake is in the software business... not the internet forum business). I think compared to other popular chat sites that makes this scenario a little unique. You don't really see many folks going to the Korg or Steinberg sites just to hang out like you do here which also says something about the tight knit nature of the Cake community which this forum has been crucial in forming.
 
I've said it before... this forum was actually a pretty big factor in me choosing Cake for my new DAW. That's was before I even created this account. I was too stupid to go it alone or deal with smarmy prats on the other sites so knowing there were users willing to actually help was a bonus.

KVR has 3 separte entities...

Bargains - NO CHAT to post deals of every kind
Bargains and Gossip - to post and discuss deals
Marketplace - for forum members to sell things.

It works quite well I might add...

Larry Jones
All I'm saying is there should be a place where users can get answers from other users about the workings of Cakewalk products, even if the questions do not rise to the level of "bug." Just guessing, but I'll bet that type of interaction is two thirds of what goes on in the Sonar forum now. Of course the company needs to identify and track real code issues, but if everyday, simple "how to" questions (even those asked and answered in the past) don't have a place here, the value is drastically reduced.
 

I think the products forums really are that - a place for users to help users and ask those "how to" questions about a specific product. The idea is it would stay that way however - if a moderator notices something that is a legit defect she/he could move the topic to 'problem reports' and someone at Cakewalk would notice it. 
 
We could probably reinforce this better by including that in the FAQ for each product forum and updating the top-level descriptions of those forums to reflect that.

cclarry
KVR has 3 separte entities...

Bargains - NO CHAT to post deals of every kind
Bargains and Gossip - to post and discuss deals
Marketplace - for forum members to sell things.

It works quite well I might add...

If it works, don't break it.

I think a forum/problem FAQ would be a good thing so people can find a solution for questions that asked repeatedly. 

 
The big question is ................ of course...
 
 
 
Will I still be able to say "arse"?