Anderton
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/16 23:19:24
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John
What on this earth does Staff View have to do with over all vibe of this forum?
I have been a strong supporter of an improved Staff View longer than some that can only seem to talk about it but I'm not so one issue a person that I can't read and post to a thread that isn't about Staff View. Or as here interject it when a thread is posted.
The irony, of course, is that I too have long supported improvements to staff view. But I place a higher priority on Cakewalk's continued growth so that there are more possibilities open to the company. That is how staff view improvements will most likely occur - not by continuous nagging as a company re-invents itself in a way that is, indeed, causing growth. It's the people who are exploiting this software to its fullest potential, and passing that knowledge along to others, who ultimately will be the ones who create an atmosphere of increased possibilities. "The ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do." - Steve Jobs. Simply complaining that the world isn't changing doesn't help it change. Good night.
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sylent
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/16 23:38:41
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 00:17:14
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Anderton
Rhetorical questions are a device for those whose agenda is not getting answer but making a point. Unfortunately your point is so unoriginal and repetitive it has lost any impact or relevance it might have had. Nor have you brought any facts to the table. I have.
I feel I've been very patient, but I cannot reason someone out of a position they did not use reason to attain.
I have brought facts to the table. It seems that you are purposefully ignoring them or perhaps you didn't read them. I must stay that resorting to insults is unnecessary and unbecoming.
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konradh
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 00:54:06
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And the Oscar for the most quotable line goes to Craig Anderton for this statement:
"I cannot reason someone out of a position they did not use reason to attain."
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 01:36:39
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@js @jb Temporarily.. BTW I'm still pro forums hosts for what it is worth although nobody will believe it.. .. Now back to topic chaps!
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/05/17 01:43:10
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Kamikaze
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 01:51:08
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2015/05/17 17:19:15
To change you persona Alex you need to have a different persona, not just change your name.
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Kamikaze
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 01:56:51
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My input on this thread was to respond to a post about confidence in bugs fixes, I made no specifics. Thread went off topic about tea, then someone mentions the seemingly unmentionable. and their is a reply to which I replied. My right to reply was questioned not my reply. Since then it seems more posters keep mentioning that others should not be mentioning 'the unmentionable' and keeping it afloat than those mentioning 'the unmentionable'. And with no sense or irony, they keep using the word irony.  Se
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 02:05:31
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Kamikaze
To change you persona Alex you need to have a different persona, not just change your name.
Like I say.. Temporary.. Nobody can pretend for long. P.s. mentioning the unmentionable should not be mentioned ..;) Can we talk about sausages now?
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/05/17 02:14:33
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 02:11:04
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Kamikaze
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 02:38:14
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Anderton
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 03:35:51
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vintagevibe
I have brought facts to the table. I read every one of your posts. Yes, it is a fact that other programs have notation. Yes, it's a fact that some people have switched to another DAW that suits their specific purposes better, which may or may not be notation. These are tangential to the direction this topic took, where a poster speculated that the notation advocates were making what appeared to be unfounded claims about the importance of notation. So I presented numbers. You can draw your own conclusions about whether they support the contention that notation is of vital importance in the marketplace. You can interpret those numbers any way you choose, but they are numbers. They have no agenda. Your answer was to list programs that you feel have good notation. Sure, it's a fact that programs have notation, but no one has shown any statistics or research about how many people use the notation in programs they buy, how important it is to them, or for that matter, whether the inclusion of notation is a major positive factor in a program's sales or market share. Remember that until Avid bought Sibelius, Pro Tools' notation capabilities were considered adequate at best, yet that didn't prevent it from totally dominating the market. Pro Tools' market dominance is eroding; you could say that upgrading the notation didn't do anything to reverse that, or you could say that it kept the core audience from switching so it in fact prevented faster erosion. Or you could say that the erosion happened around the same time they acquired Sibelius, so improving notation cost them sales. But there's no data to support any of those theories.The only thing we know for sure is that improving notation did not gain market share. There's a difference between presenting facts, like "Cubase has notation," and facts that are germane to the question that was being asked. I must stay that resorting to insults is unnecessary and unbecoming.
I do not find an of the following insulting: "Rhetorical questions are a device for those whose agenda is not getting answer but making a point." That's the definition you'll find if you google "rhetorical question." "Unfortunately your point is so unoriginal and repetitive it has lost any impact or relevance it might have had." That is not an insult. It is an opinion, and one in which I don't think I'm alone. It's getting tiresome, especially since IIRC you said you don't use Sonar any more anyway except to open legacy projects. This forum is intended to be a platform for people who actually use Sonar. "Nor have you brought any facts to the table. I have." When you answer a question about numbers with numbers, then you'll have brought facts to the table in an equal spirit of quantifying what we're discussing. "I feel I've been very patient, but I cannot reason someone out of a position they did not use reason to attain." A reasonable person would draw a conclusion from looking at statistics that the inclusion of notation is simply not that important to the overall marketplace. Of course, that doesn't negate that it's extremely important to some people. I think everyone in this forum figured that out a long time ago. Repeating it over and over again doesn't write code. In fact it's counter-productive, because when a small group of people keep hammering on it even in a thread that has nothing to do with staff view (and this isn't the first time), it has the "look and feel" of a vocal minority. Count the number of unique users in the "No Notation Fixes" thread who consider the inclusion of notation extremely important, then count the number of registered users. The fact is in all the surveys of Sonar's users, notation is not that important. Of course that could be because they knew going in that Sonar's strong point wasn't notation, and it still isn't, but they don't care because that wasn't a factor in buying it in the first place. Now, if notation was shown by statistics, not speculation or anecdotal evidence, to be immensely important to the market at large, then Cakewalk would need to take into account that adding robust notation might result in a considerable boost in sales. But the number of programs without notation whose market share dwarfs programs with notation (Pro Tools excepted, which still accounts for the #1 position in the marketplace) don't seem to support that theory. Don't shoot the messenger. It's not my fault that notation isn't as important a feature in music software as some people think it is or would like it to be. That's all I'm saying, and I presented facts to back it up. If you want to take it personally that's your choice, not my intention. I'm sure my frustration in not having my points addressed in any meaningful way shows through, but that's quite different from being insulting.
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lfm
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 06:20:13
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Anderton
The fact is in all the surveys of Sonar's users, notation is not that important. Of course that could be because they knew going in that Sonar's strong point wasn't notation, and it still isn't, but they don't care because that wasn't a factor in buying it in the first place.
Now, if notation was shown by statistics, not speculation or anecdotal evidence, to be immensely important to the market at large, then Cakewalk would need to take into account that adding robust notation might result in a considerable boost in sales. But the number of programs without notation whose market share dwarfs programs with notation (Pro Tools excepted, which still accounts for the #1 position in the marketplace) don't seem to support that theory.
Late 80's - and just a midi sequencer - Cakewalk Pro 3.0 already had notation - that would count for something. StudioOne was lacking so far, but bought Notion so I guess that stand for not being entirely unimportant. Reaper 5, now rumoured to do something about it too. All other daws I tried have it to some degree - Samplitude, Mixcraft, Cubase, ProTools. So they all bother for no reason? There is not single thing that makes a daw boost sales through the ceiling - and floor everything else. The daw is the toolbox - and if there are tools missing you have to look at workarounds for that. VCA Groups is another such matter that do not target everybody. It been loud voices on Cockos forums for years and now in Reaper 5 it arrives, Cubase Pro 8 just got it, and Samplitude moved that also from Sequoia in ProX2. What makes you choose a particular daw is different whether being beginner, intermediate, expert or pro. The complete daw must target pro level as well to be successful - this is a selling point for beginners. But to target beginner you have entry level versions that are a bit cut down in certain areas - and very attractive pricetag, and have loads of instruments and plugins. The professional does not care about shipped plugins so much - they are already covered in that area thanks to standards for plugins. The point is that there is something for everybody - like the morning paper that some are acustomed to. So probably from intermediate you begin to look at notation and at expert also VCA groups. The daw is used by many from those just starting out doing music related tracks. The total beginner does not buy or not due to notation - they probably go by instruments and effects included to get them started. A songwriter in a band might give other members a notation printout with chords, melody and lyrics as support - a mapp folder for rehearsals and gigs. If guitarplayer you can enter through tabs and fretboard. The more serious you become regarding music making - notation needs pop up. And the tool for professionals - actually register songs for royalty purposes - certainly pay attention to notation. Notation seem to be one thing that is an excellent idea to have incorporated into the workflow. It's such an excellent boost of workflow - you have so many things in midi today anyway. I'm not one of those that write music through notation - it's the other way around - record live and want to simplify the steps towards registering a song, prepare a hired vocalist etc. And I'm dead serious about what I do, even if not calling myself pro until the day I actually get an artist to take on one of my songs. And it's my main occupation until I'm six feet under - full working hours I do things related to this project, making my long time hobby to full time work. So a sucessful business will target beginners, with strong arguments that also pro's use this tool - that is where it matters with features that you don't need right away, but in due time(maybe not even knowing it from start). And at every level your needs are covered - you can buy in on more advanced version. To go to a single feature and ask for majority vote on that to be implemented - would be a disaster.That is what v1.0 of a product would go by - not an established product with decades on the market. And I'm sure Cakewalk scan the Features & Ideas forum at times - to look for the tiny improvements people long for. None of them will make a majority vote - just hinting what worth spending dev time on. The more hours you spend on daw each day - the more it matters with the tiny, tiny things in there. Things that you do dozens of times every hour matters the most, probably.
post edited by lfm - 2015/05/17 06:32:33
Cubase Pro 9 with SA2015 as backup - W7 i7 2.8GHz 16G GeForce GT 730 - RME HDSP 9632 + AI4S
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olemon
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 07:16:51
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I installed all of the updates. Back in the know...for now. No glitches so far. Thanks.
https://www.reverbnation.com/scottholson Platinum, Studio One 3 Pro, Win 10 (x64), AMD FX-8350, ASUS M5A97 R2.0, 16GB, RME UCX, Digimax DP88, Faderport 8, Revive Audio Mod Studio Channel, Vintage Audio M72, Summit Audio TLA-50, KRK Rokit 5 G2 Monitors, Guitars "If you wait till the last minute, it only takes a minute."
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Anderton
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 11:34:46
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lfm
All other daws I tried have it to some degree - Samplitude, Mixcraft, Cubase, ProTools.
So they all bother for no reason?
Of course not, and I've already answered that question in this and other threads. As I said, it's extremely important to some people. And as I've also said before, it's important in the educational market, so a program like Mixcraft that's making a play for that market better have at least some form of notation. Ditto Pro Tools, which historically has been used extensively (nearly a monopoly) in schools. Sonar was never huge in education, which has benefited greatly from Apple's largesse in seeding computers. Being Windows-only is a disadvantage in that market; Mixcraft is swimming upstream. I also think it's important to remember that Sonar does have notation and people do use it, regardless of some longstanding bugs. So Sonar IS one of the DAWs that has it "to some degree." Tab is useful, too. Notation was a much bigger deal in the early days of sequencers because they were MIDI-based. As digital audio became more affordable, DAWs moved more and more in that direction. The DAWs I've alluded to with huge market share were created post-inexpensive digital audio, and therefore emphasize audio. The market has changed but fortunately for those who like notation, there are programs with a legacy of including notation early on and continuing it. It doesn't require the same kind of maintenance as digital audio, which has seen multiple changes in formats, drivers, and workflow over the years. A new kind of tempo or key will not be invented next week, and I doubt there have been many changes to the code that's been in programs since the days when MIDI was king. I feel that if PreSonus had not been able to write a check to acquire Notion as a pre-existing solution, they would not have started notation from scratch for Studio One Pro (I believe Reaper is also promising a third-party add-on, not a reworking of the core program). Also factor Notion being for sale in the first place into the "importance of notation to the majority of users" equation. And, PreSonus acquired Notion in September 2013. If integration was so important and easy to do, you'd think it would have happened by now. One notation advocate in this forum (sorry, I forget who) wanted to make a constructive comment that would actually help the Bakers, so he put together a list of the 5 bugs which, if fixed, would make people who use notation with Sonar a whole lot happier. I passed that along to the product manager with a recommendation to implement. FWIW Dorchester had two staff view fixes. Cakewalk is smart enough these days not to make any promises because they don't know what the future will bring, and past regimes made some promises that didn't materialize. But to say they're ignoring the people who want notation is simply not true. The Bakers are totally aware of the sentiments of this minority of Sonar users. Where it fits in the to-do list is the question, not whether it's on the to-do list or not. For what I think are valid reasons, the bugs that affect the greatest number of users are slated to be tackled first, various other factors (e.g., feasibility) notwithstanding.
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cclarry
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 13:21:54
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2015/05/17 17:21:06
Cactus Music
Speaking as a regular, I have lost interest in this part of the forum.
I like helping new people start out and for some reason that has faded here.
I'm with Cactus....here and the Studio Forum... They have, quite frankly, become "ghost towns"....these halls used to be constantly abuzz with info, deals, tips, bugs, etc...and always packed. NOW, it's far from that...it's the "privelaged few"...while there is the "occasional" relative thread, the thought that "posting your viewpoints" will only get it moved/edited/deleted has driven off a lot of those who used to frequent these halls. Maybe that was the intent...to create less work for everyone...don't know. And the bots block out so much that many people just "gave up" and left...and I can't say that I blame them... It's definitely NOT the same...that much is for sure...
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 13:33:43
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Anderton
The market has changed but fortunately for those who like notation, there are programs with a legacy of including notation early on and continuing it. It doesn't require the same kind of maintenance as digital audio, which has seen multiple changes in formats, drivers, and workflow over the years.
Not a completely accurate picture. Avid didn't buy Sibelius in the old days when digital audio was new. Presonus invested significantly to acquire Notion very recently. Cubase had a major upgrade on the Score view functioning last year. Reaper is working on a notation solution currently. All these companies are investing in notation now or recently. Notation is not just a legacy feature.
post edited by vintagevibe - 2015/05/17 13:40:59
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pbognar
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 13:49:34
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Anderton
Of course not, and I've already answered that question in this and other threads. As I said, it's extremely important to some people. And as I've also said before, it's important in the educational market, so a program like Mixcraft that's making a play for that market better have at least some form of notation. Ditto Pro Tools, which historically has been used extensively (nearly a monopoly) in schools.
Craig, if you want to put this into the notation thread, I understand - there is no reason for those who don't care about notation based MIDI editing to be subjected to this stuff. I hope we can continue to have rational, constructive discussions about this. It is not my intent to be an irritant. Anyway... Mixcraft had better have notation - it is billing itself as GarageBand for Windows. To be honest, the notation in Mixcraft is miles behind that of GB, and also doesn't handle triplets correctly yet, however, they felt it was important to include. So why is decent notation editing / simple printing a part of GB? Is it the audience? Is it because they had the Logic based code laying around? Why did Pro Tools improve it's MIDI notation editor? They could have just left Sibelius as a separate product. Why does Cubase have increasing notation functionality as you move up their various editions? They must know that users are willing to pay for functionality. I think notation is seen as having some value to prospective customers. Anderton
Sonar was never huge in education, which has benefited greatly from Apple's largesse in seeding computers. Being Windows-only is a disadvantage in that market; Mixcraft is swimming upstream. I also think it's important to remember that Sonar does have notation and people do use it, regardless of some longstanding bugs. So Sonar IS one of the DAWs that has it "to some degree." Tab is useful, too.
You are correct. Many treat the situation as if Sonar had nothing. The frustration comes in when there is some low hanging fruit, which if addressed, would satisfy many users. IMO, the focus at hand is notation based MIDI creation/editing, not publishing quality score printing. Anderton
Notation was a much bigger deal in the early days of sequencers because they were MIDI-based. As digital audio became more affordable, DAWs moved more and more in that direction. The DAWs I've alluded to with huge market share were created post-inexpensive digital audio, and therefore emphasize audio.
With technology like Melodyne Editor, it is now possible to go from audio to MIDI to notation. We would have laughed at someone who 20 years ago who couldn't understand why they couldn't convert an audio recording to printed notation. Not so far fetched today. Not so much laughing - more like amazement. Anderton
The market has changed but fortunately for those who like notation, there are programs with a legacy of including notation early on and continuing it. It doesn't require the same kind of maintenance as digital audio, which has seen multiple changes in formats, drivers, and workflow over the years. A new kind of tempo or key will not be invented next week, and I doubt there have been many changes to the code that's been in programs since the days when MIDI was king.
Sonar has legacy notation code, and one would believe that "It doesn't require the same kind of maintenance as digital audio". So what gives? Anderton
I feel that if PreSonus had not been able to write a check to acquire Notion as a pre-existing solution, they would not have started notation from scratch for Studio One Pro (I believe Reaper is also promising a third-party add-on, not a reworking of the core program). Also factor Notion being for sale in the first place into the "importance of notation to the majority of users" equation. And, PreSonus acquired Notion in September 2013. If integration was so important and easy to do, you'd think it would have happened by now.
Some have suggested that Cakewalk write a check to acquire a pre-existing solution. I would never assume that it is a small effort to implant one program's functionality into another. I would prefer that Cakewalk write a much smaller check, and have someone plow through the existing SV code. Re: Reaper, my understanding is that functionality is going to be native code. To be honest with you, Reaper was so audio-centric, I thought a MIDI notation editor would be the LAST thing they would add. And yet, it appears they find there is value in it. Anderton
One notation advocate in this forum (sorry, I forget who) wanted to make a constructive comment that would actually help the Bakers, so he put together a list of the 5 bugs which, if fixed, would make people who use notation with Sonar a whole lot happier. I passed that along to the product manager with a recommendation to implement.
Low hanging fruit. We have been told that Cakewalk discuss the notation situation, about once a year. I don't buy the idea that Cakewalk have been ignoring the SV limitations for all these years. I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that the existing SV code cannot be maintained for some technical or legal reason, hence the only way there would be any (even incremental fixes / improvements) would be through a complete re-write, or the acquisition of another product. It seems so obvious. We've seen improvements many improvements in the PRV. They are both MIDI editors. Perhaps Cakewalk do not feel the need to communicate this to customers, because it IS that obvious, and it would only tend to put Sonar in a negative light. These are the opinions of one person, based on observation and experience. I reserve (and welcome) the right to be wrong. 
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dubdisciple
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 13:52:04
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vintagevibe
dubdisciple
There is a certain irony that a thread pointing out a shift in the forums managed to shift it back to beating the same dead horses. It is also sad that some people cannot distinguish the difference between "ignoring" and simply choosing not to act. When it comes to subjects like staff view, it is easy to make unproven broad statements like claims Cakewalk has lost "lots" of customers over a chosen pet issue, or the ever-popular claims of increased sells if cakewalk upgrades/adds/fixes a feature. These statements are as valid as me claiming cakewalks sales would triple if they included a coupon for a happy ending at a sketchy massage parlor. Unprovable on the best of days without some measurable numbers instead of rhetoric.
There are lots of things I would love improved, but I realize that Cakewalk is going to analyze input from customer base and potential customers and make the decision they feel will benefit them the most. Evidently, upon weighing all options, there are still items they feel will not affect their bottomline enough to make those changes.
Ok so Cake chooses to ignore staff view. Is that better? Your welcome.
You don't have to act like a smarmy d-bag just because everyone isn't hopping on your crusade. I don't need you to reword anything because it is clear you are going to take an irrational approach that leads to a different variation of the same rhetoric. Saying Cakewalk is ignoring staff view implies knowledge of intent. I have had plent of clients ask me for things that were not in the best interests of my business, so I passed. I was not ignoring them. The fact that cakewalk staff has indulged in countless threads like this, enduring insults and baseless insinuations, proves they are not ignoring you. You just can't seem to understand that they can hear you perfectly clear and sinultaneously remain unconvinced to act.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 14:09:22
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I don't think we got any feedback from the cakewalk survey a few months ago? It's up to them whether they want to make the info public or not, but I'm speculating the feedback is with Sonar to concentrate on improving existing functionality, rather than bolt on tons of new half baked features, that speculatation is based on a forum thread at the time of the survey and what cakewalk have been doing over the last few months.
As far as the forums becoming boring... Well if that's the case it's all our fault. I'd rather have boring and helpful rather than lively and disfunctional to be honest.
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John
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 14:19:14
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cclarry
Cactus Music
Speaking as a regular, I have lost interest in this part of the forum.
I like helping new people start out and for some reason that has faded here.
I'm with Cactus....here and the Studio Forum...
They have, quite frankly, become "ghost towns"....these halls used to
be constantly abuzz with info, deals, tips, bugs, etc...and always packed.
NOW, it's far from that...it's the "privelaged few"...while there is the "occasional" relative thread,
the thought that "posting your viewpoints" will only get it moved/edited/deleted
has driven off a lot of those who used to frequent these halls. Maybe that was
the intent...to create less work for everyone...don't know.
And the bots block out so much that many people just "gave up" and left...and I can't
say that I blame them...
It's definitely NOT the same...that much is for sure...
No host has deleted any post due to it being a contrary point of view. I can say that the only posts I have ever deleted are accidental duplicate posts. As a group hosts have a deep distaste for deleting modifying or otherwise changing anyone's post. We believe very strongly that what another writes is their property. I know I have never done that. I also know that the other hosts are very reluctant to do any such thing. As to moving threads posted in the wrong forum, there is nothing new about that. CW has been doing that for years. Now the hosts free up CW by doing that chore for them. If members have left it can't be because there are hosts. First they are still members and all they have to do is log in at any time. They can read these forums anytime without logging in. If their interest is the software CW produces having hosts has no impact on anyones ability to see and read the latest news on these forums and comment on it. If there are other reasons for them to be here, well, it would seem to me to be a simple case by case decision on their part and completely up to them.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 14:37:46
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Only a few days ago a host completely missed something and I pointed it out. Their response were to edit their post to take account of my correction (to save face?) and delete my post. I wasn't particularly annoyed more bemused..
On the whole hosts do a good job, but I have to admit I've seen multiple instances of not following forum handbook rules,(rather attempt to bend them). I've also been sent PM's telling me not to do something but refusing to supply any URL reference pointing to where I went wrong (very Judge Dredd). I also don't like the fact they seem to think they are moderators of the forums discussion forums when they are not.
Still I'd rather have them than not. But less of this sort of thing please.
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Anderton
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 14:49:55
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vintagevibe
Anderton
The market has changed but fortunately for those who like notation, there are programs with a legacy of including notation early on and continuing it. It doesn't require the same kind of maintenance as digital audio, which has seen multiple changes in formats, drivers, and workflow over the years.
Not a completely accurate picture. Avid didn't buy Sibelius in the old days when digital audio was new. No, but they've been doing notation since those days. Incorporating a basic version of Sibelius was done to encourage upsells to the full version, and satisfy those who had complained about the pre-Sibelius notation. Presonus invested significantly to acquire Notion very recently. Cubase had a major upgrade on the Score view functioning last year. Reaper is working on a notation solution currently. All these companies are investing in notation now or recently. Notation is not just a legacy feature.
I never said notation was a "legacy feature." I said there are programs with a legacy of including notation early on and continuing it. Big difference. And of the companies you mentioned, three of them added notation functionality by purchasing or working with third party companies, not messing with the internal code internally, so it didn't take a big hit on their development teams. PreSonus and Avid are much bigger companies than Cakewalk, and have the option of writing a check (which from what I understand wasn't all that huge) to add functionality (although Cakewalk is part of Gibson, it operates semi-autonomously and is responsible for its P&L). Those companies can analyze the potential ROI and say "hey, it won't cost that much, and won't interfere with development of the core product. Why not?" And as I've said before, Steinberg is owned by Yamaha, which has major hooks into education world-wide. It is a core emphasis so it's not surprising they would update notation which was not always universally loved. But my larger point remains the same - more power to them, it's of value to at least some part of their existing user base, and they need a unique selling point in a world where DAWs are increasingly similar. Cakewalk chose the membership program and "rapid response" as its USP, and is doing very well as a result so I think that was a good choice of where to put their resources. Regardless, I remain highly skeptical that the presence of notation moves the needle much in terms of market share. For Cakewalk to move that needle, I believe the company would need to create a notation solution that was mind-blowingly better than anything else out there, and be available on the Mac, to cause enough users to switch from their existing software of choice to cover the development costs. It seems a much more practical path would be to fix the bugs in the current implementation so that it's properly functional, and leave it at that.
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 14:52:14
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dubdisciple
You don't have to act like a smarmy d-bag just because everyone isn't hopping on your crusade.
Wow. dubdisciple
The fact that cakewalk staff has indulged in countless threads like this, enduring insults and baseless insinuations, proves they are not ignoring you. You just can't seem to understand that they can hear you perfectly clear and sinultaneously remain unconvinced to act.
I'm pretty good at english and can I assure that it is possible to choose to ignore something. You are lost in a semantic hole of your own making.
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ampfixer
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 14:53:13
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☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2015/05/17 17:24:09
This thread is a perfect illustration of the shift in the forums. At some point everything became confrontational. It's become about protecting your opinion by making the opinions of others seem to be inferior. IF you have an idea don't bring it forward unless you are prepared to defend it because it will be challenged. I simply want to have a discussion and exchange ideas. I don't come here to do battle, this is supposed to be my relaxation.
We don't all have access to the information that say Craig Anderton has. With that in mind, I have to believe what he posts and his opinions have a far greater weight than the rank and file. I don't care what he claims, when Craig posts I consider him to be the voice of Cakewalk. No point in debating with him because he's actively involved in the development of the program. He is in a position of authority and I respect his views.
There are others however, those that will just slam your opinion, those that will decide that your opinion is flawed and not worth the time you took to express it. That's where the shift has been. It's so hard to quantify, but I feel there is a mean streak here that wasn't here before and it causes me anxiety to participate. I used to look forward to seeing if anyone responded to my post. Now I get anxious and wonder how much criticism I'll have to face.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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Anderton
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 14:54:49
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Doktor Avalanche
Only a few days ago a host completely missed something and I pointed it out. Their response were to edit their post to take account of my correction (to save face?) and delete my post. I wasn't particularly annoyed more bemused..
I don't know the precise context, but if someone points out something like a typo in my post or a bad link, I'll fix the problem and delete the post calling attention to the problem. I think it makes for a better reading experience not to have more posts than is necessary. However I do tick the box that sends a message to the person saying it had been deleted, and I usually stuff it in the recycle bin as a matter of courtesy, just in case.
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John
Forum Host
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 15:12:55
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ampfixer
This thread is a perfect illustration of the shift in the forums. At some point everything became confrontational. It's become about protecting your opinion by making the opinions of others seem to be inferior. IF you have an idea don't bring it forward unless you are prepared to defend it because it will be challenged. I simply want to have a discussion and exchange ideas. I don't come here to do battle, this is supposed to be my relaxation.
We don't all have access to the information that say Craig Anderton has. With that in mind, I have to believe what he posts and his opinions have a far greater weight than the rank and file. I don't care what he claims, when Craig posts I consider him to be the voice of Cakewalk. No point in debating with him because he's actively involved in the development of the program. He is in a position of authority and I respect his views.
There are others however, those that will just slam your opinion, those that will decide that your opinion is flawed and not worth the time you took to express it. That's where the shift has been. It's so hard to quantify, but I feel there is a mean streak here that wasn't here before and it causes me anxiety to participate. I used to look forward to seeing if anyone responded to my post. Now I get anxious and wonder how much criticism I'll have to face.
Let me know when you think this is happening. That is when things seem to be getting confrontational. I will say I see nothing wrong in attacking an idea. I think that is something any idea needs to become a good one. Attacking a member is not tolerated. But I will do what I can to keep things civil. That really is all we can do. BTW whether a host or not we all have a duty to act when a thread turns bad. No one should attack another but pointing out poorly framed posts that will cause problems isn't an attack. If we try hard to respect one another things will work themselves out. This thread has been very good in not doing the later. It has diverged a lot and I have commented on that aspect. But in the end no one has been prevented from expressing their opinion.
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 15:24:01
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Doktor Avalanche
Only a few days ago a host completely missed something and I pointed it out. Their response were to edit their post to take account of my correction (to save face?) and delete my post. I wasn't particularly annoyed more bemused..
Anderton
I don't know the precise context, but if someone points out something like a typo in my post or a bad link, I'll fix the problem and delete the post calling attention to the problem. I think it makes for a better reading experience not to have more posts than is necessary. However I do tick the box that sends a message to the person saying it had been deleted, and I usually stuff it in the recycle bin as a matter of courtesy, just in case.
I'm afraid it was a bit more than just a typo Craig... I would talk about the specifics but I see nothing productive in pointing fingers at a specific individual (besides I'm tired of bun fights). Hopefully they are reading this thread though and decide not to take such actions in future, they should note if it happens again I will complain strongly and vocally! They know who they are...
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Anderton
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 15:34:26
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ampfixer
We don't all have access to the information that say Craig Anderton has. With that in mind, I have to believe what he posts and his opinions have a far greater weight than the rank and file. I don't care what he claims, when Craig posts I consider him to be the voice of Cakewalk. No point in debating with him because he's actively involved in the development of the program. He is in a position of authority and I respect his views. I advocate for the consumers to Cakewalk, and for Cakewalk to the consumers. The second part is more obvious in this forum, the first part is more obvious in the program. FWIW I have disagreements with Cakewalk as well. That's one of my values to the company. I do try to educate as much as possible in my posts. Many people here simply are not familiar with the realities of the music software business, which is fine...they should be enjoying the programs, and making music with them. However, when they don't understand why certain things don't go their way (particularly if they're petty or condescending about it) and in my opinion it's due to not understanding how the business works, I try to explain that business. I do feel some people here hold others to much higher standards than the standards to which they hold themselves. That's to be expected, I guess, but does not encourage quality dialog. For example in another thread, someone criticized marketing for not placing reading forum posts as a priority, and asked what they could possibly be doing that's more important. Well, they were preparing a presentation to the business development managers at Gibson, dealing with X3 RMAs, localization issues with Japanese software, preparing banner ads, writing the copy and web pages for the next release, and a whole lot more that I won't bore you with. Sometimes I'll send them URLs to threads I think they should know about because I know they don't have time to spend time in these forums. I get calls from Noel on Sundays and from Andrew at 8 AM and 11 PM. This is a 24/7 operation. I'm surprised Andrew pays as much attention as he does. It's a measure of his dedication, yet some people begrudge him for not spending even more time instead of appreciating the time he does spend. Very few other companies have their executives and CTOs participating in forums. Unfortunately a lot of what I know is confidential information not just from Cakewalk but from other companies and industry sources, so I often can't provide additional details to underscore why I hold the opinions I do. I am friends with pretty much all the companies in this industry. It is a tough, competitive, low-margin world, and we're all in this together. All the people I know in these companies are motivated by a love of music and a desire to provide cool tools. I just wish that some of them were rewarded with more than selling 12 copies of a product in a month and seeing cracks on multiple torrents... There really aren't any "enemies" in this industry. All these companies carry on dialogs with each other about topics like compatibility and operating system weirdnesses. They work with each other to try and insure a positive customer experience. I honestly believe that the industry as a whole, not just Cakewalk, is woefully underappreciated my many users who have this sense of entitlement regarding features they want to see. If they knew the realities of this world, they would be grateful for the dazzling array of choices in front of us from a variety of companies, instead of complaining endlessly that a program doesn't satisfy all their needs. I wish those in these forums would reflect the same attitudes that provide the camaraderie amongst software developers. I have a feeling though that given human nature, the odds of a notation solution appearing before that are more likely. I feel there is a mean streak here that wasn't here before and it causes me anxiety to participate. I used to look forward to seeing if anyone responded to my post. Now I get anxious and wonder how much criticism I'll have to face. I've had 20 years of experience in forums and IMHO, I believe they are nothing more or less than a mirror of society. It takes effort to counteract the influences of a society that is becoming coarser, and instead act with courtesy and respect within a forum context. Sadly, some people do not make that effort.
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vintagevibe
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 15:39:04
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☄ Helpfulby paulo 2015/05/17 15:54:16
John
Attacking a member is not tolerated.
dubdisciple
You don't have to act like a smarmy d-bag
This was tolerated.
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Anderton
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Re: Anyone Else Notice a Shift in this Forum?
2015/05/17 15:41:50
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pbognar
I hope we can continue to have rational, constructive discussions about this. It is not my intent to be an irritant. Suffice it to say you have a good handle on the situation and I do not see you as an irritant. Your posts generally register high on the "constructive" meter.
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