Well, that deteriorated quickly.
I think the reason is everyone is busy complaining about Rapture Pro. Once that's fixed, they'll be back.

ampfixer
I've had a lot of experience with organizational structure and team building. Much of that was learning how to listen to others and try to see through their eyes. Much of that stuff goes out the window with text communication. I can read body language and listen to vocal inflections when words fall short. Trying to gain the same understanding via text is very tricky.

"Very tricky" is putting it mildly. For example I do not know whether I am not explaining things sufficiently clearly to VintageVibe so therefore he misinterprets what I say, or he cannot understand what I am saying because it is out of his frame of reference,or he is being deliberately evasive and disingenuous, or he is simply pressed for time because dinner will burn if he spends too much time reading my posts...or something else entirely. 
 
My assumption is that he simply does not live day-to-day with the realities of the music software business, so his analyses are based on a lack of quality data. Without quality data I do not think it is possible to draw quality conclusions. I have tried to address his concerns on that level. But who knows whether that is the correct level or not? Obviously I am not getting through with my analysis based on the data I receive, so his opinions on the importance of notation in music software to the general population will almost certainly remain unchanged as they reflect his personal viewpoint. Which is fine; it's natural that he would concern himself with his personal needs, not the financial health of an entire company.
 
My opinions will also remain unchanged, unless/until I see data that indicates those opinions are no longer valid. In that case, I can change my opinion within seconds. I have no agenda pro or con notation. I have an agenda for Cakewalk to succeed so that it will have more resources. Then the company will have more possibilities to implement projects and ideas that, at least for the moment, are not feasible.
 
Major, positive steps have been taken since the company was acquired. Cakewalk has shown an ability to prioritize what needs to be done in a way that produces forward motion. One of those priorities is an emphasis on addressing long-standing bugs and promoting stability based on how many users they impact.

I bought Notion for the price of a cheap plug in. I don't use it. I bought it because I wanted to be able to do everything on one machine and I have friends that occasionally drop by to score some strings. I can't even tell you if it's a good program but my friends like it a lot and I don't care if Cake never works on scoring. 
 
I don't know what rewire is but I can access Notion via rewire. I imagine that means I can use it from within Sonar. If Cake put $100k into staff view and scoring would it be any better than the program I bought for $49.95 on sale? The upgrade would cost $200. It seems like an invitation to purchase the solution elsewhere, yet people are resisting.

John

vintagevibe

John
 Attacking a member is not tolerated. 

dubdisciple
You don't have to act like a smarmy d-bag 

 
This was tolerated.

OK you have pointed out an infringement. Now you want me to do something, right? 
 
You are right though.  
 
Dubdisciple please don't do that anymore. Lets try to find better ways to express a thought. Because I respect you both and like you both I know you and Vintagevibe will keep it civil. You are both better than that. 
 
Peace to you both!

Duly noted

EDIT: I apologize to all for talking about notation in this thread, but my comment is peripherally related to the original poster's question.

Anderton
One notation advocate in this forum (sorry, I forget who) wanted to make a constructive comment that would actually help the Bakers, so he put together a list of the 5 bugs which, if fixed, would make people who use notation with Sonar a whole lot happier. I passed that along to the product manager with a recommendation to implement.

This was the point where I gave up reading the "No Notation Fixes!" thread. It was a sensible, well-considered post. The five points looked to me (not a notation guy) as if they would provide partial notation satisfaction to the majority of those who really wanted improvements, while remaining limited enough to be achievable from a programming standpoint. But the thread rolls on, still with no one happy. The five points were torn apart, added to, and ignored in hundreds of more comments.
 
My takeaway was that there is no consensus within the group demanding notation fixes, even on something like the definition of notation fixes, and not much willingness to "settle" for some initial steps in the right direction, which could lead to a more robust staff view. Add to that the commenters who predict that nothing will ever happen based on what they perceive as 20 years of stonewalling by Cakewalk, and it just looks like a roiling cauldron of bitterness and anger, sort of a support group for people to share the ways in which they already know they are not going to get what they want.
 
I'm sure there are thoughtful users who could use a better staff view, and I hope they get it, one way or another. But I respectfully suggest they all use their time making music whatever way they can, and send constructive criticism and requests directly to Cakewalk through the channel that is set up for that.
 
Meantime, if that thread got locked it would be OK with me

Susan G
I wasn't around when the forum hosts were first added and some of the subforums created. I'm not crazy about the tone/content of some of the forum hosts' posts, esp. when they say they like or respect certain members or particularly value their input, yada-yada, or argue ad infinitum a single point to make sure they're seen as "right."  It shouldn't matter whether a host "likes" or "respects" a forum member when they're applying the rules, IMO.
 
Maybe they're in an untenable position as members *and* hosts, but it seems to me they should try to be objective and leave out the subjective stuff, if possible.
 

I don't think the personalities of the hosts have changed much, if at all, since becoming hosts and because they are members, they continue to post like they did as members. Comments about liking or respecting someone were present before there were hosts.
 
The only potential "host overlay" is that those comments could now be viewed as having "the force of law" or whatever, but I think it's just humans being human. Another consideration is there are two ways to influence behavior. One is to call out something negative in the hope that people will stop doing it. The other is to recognize something positive in the hope that it will encourage people to continue doing that. 
 
I know what you mean about arguing ad infinitum, having been involved in some pretty long back-and-forths myself . But if someone brings up additional points, then not answering them appears evasive. Or if someone misrepresents a position, then either something has been misunderstood so clarification is required, or there is deliberate disingenuousness and then that also needs to be addressed.
 
I will say that sometimes the "threads-that-never-end" just continue to deteriorate and signify nothing, but sometimes it takes a lot of posts before something really meaningful appears that puts things in a new light. For example, the no notation fixes has both...I think those "five most important bugs" post was truly helpful, but then as Larry pointed out, the thread deteriorated further.
 
It's all good. As long as humans are involved, there will be imperfections. It's how we react to the imperfections that either moves things forwards or backwards.
 
 

Thanks Craig.... I made comments on the other thread (Sad I couldn't keep the issue clean again). I won't hijack this thread with further comments about this specific issue.

I would add getting away from the specific issue and being more general about it, that thread just highlights the worst about these forums for me. It will always be like this however and it's not like other forums don't experience the same sort of issues...


Thread gets moved from problem reports forum without comment.... A swarm of comments appear which really aren't dealing with the specifics (not a big problem but problem reports really isn't about opinions, it's about getting clearly understandable issues to QA... however now it's in Sonar forums it's become a comment thread so anything goes). It gets moved back, I find myself commenting thinking it's still in Sonar when it isn't. Then a host starts threatening to delete a thread purely on the basis of the subject title, I blow up because this is heavy handed. Then OP (me) trying to get it back where it belongs and on topic, and then the trolling vouchers at the end waiting to pick up the scraps of meat (wanting to discuss their own agendas or prod people ... guess they like that sort of thing).... a total and utter mess.

End result the thread is unusable for problem reports, and I end up recommend it should get locked.
Not pointing fingers, it's just a bees nest. Plenty of examples not just this thread.

Susan G
Hi-
 
I think the level of helpfulness here is about the same as always (i.e., very high)! I think the "personality" of the SONAR forum has changed somewhat, though. I wasn't around when the forum hosts were first added and some of the subforums created. I'm not crazy about the tone/content of some of the forum hosts' posts, esp. when they say they like or respect certain members or particularly value their input, yada-yada, or argue ad infinitum a single point to make sure they're seen as "right."  It shouldn't matter whether a host "likes" or "respects" a forum member when they're applying the rules, IMO.
 
Maybe they're in an untenable position as members *and* hosts, but it seems to me they should try to be objective and leave out the subjective stuff, if possible.
 
-Susan

I think you misinterpret the post I made. I know you have taken it out of context. Nor have you considered the outcome.  

Whew.   I read nearly all.   what resonated most:  volunteer moderators, don't move posts, don't criticize them, just let the rest of us read and ponder .... please.

Seems clear to me John what he was saying. He read all, not just the OP post, and feels that vibe of the thread is that hosts shouldn't move and judge posts, but let the everyone come to their own conclusions.
 
Where did you get the idea about loosing membership from that?

Bottom line Hosts aren't hosts until they do something host like...They are paying customers as well. If people feel they should not be treated like paying customers they should get over it.

When I'm pissed with moderation I'm pissed with the moderation and not the host unless they start going all Rambo or start inventing their own rules to save face.

Kamikaze

John

Susan G
Hi-
 
I think the level of helpfulness here is about the same as always (i.e., very high)! I think the "personality" of the SONAR forum has changed somewhat, though. I wasn't around when the forum hosts were first added and some of the subforums created. I'm not crazy about the tone/content of some of the forum hosts' posts, esp. when they say they like or respect certain members or particularly value their input, yada-yada, or argue ad infinitum a single point to make sure they're seen as "right."  It shouldn't matter whether a host "likes" or "respects" a forum member when they're applying the rules, IMO.
 
Maybe they're in an untenable position as members *and* hosts, but it seems to me they should try to be objective and leave out the subjective stuff, if possible.
 
-Susan

I think you misinterpret the post I made. I know you have taken it out of context. Nor have you considered the outcome.  

That's a bit strong!

Please explain how it is too strong?

Kamikaze
Seems clear to me John what he was saying. He read all, not just the OP post, and feels that vibe of the thread is that hosts shouldn't move and judge posts, but let the everyone come to their own conclusions.
 
Where did you get the idea about loosing membership from that?

First off hosts don't move posts. Hosts move threads. That is done when a thread is started in the wrong forum. It is a basic job of hosts to do that. Also he says he read almost all the posts not all. I don't know what he didn't read. Not that matters to any degree. I saw no criticism of posts by anyone except perhaps me. Perhaps I missed one or two but had posted early in this thread and I tried to keep current by reading all the posts. If there was criticism it was by me in the form of not taking the thread off topic. Again that is a part of hosts duties.
 
I guess members are unaware of just what we as hosts are charged with doing.  I take it as a duty. My most important duty is to try to the best of my ability to keep threads peaceful and civil.  Often times a word will do the trick. And that is the end of it. 
 
If I seem to overreact it is because I try to head off trouble before it starts. I much rather have people focus on me than they attack one another. I can take the heat.
 
Clearly we both have a very different take on that post. I see it one way you see another. Its not a question of right or wrong its a question of interpretation.  I hope this explains things well enough.