jatoth
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 363
- Joined: 2009/08/12 06:31:35
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 09:41:06
(permalink)
mettelus
Ultimately this is going to fall back onto voiced concerns when the membership model was announced if this trend continues. At the point of each member's renewal, if a damning bug is introduced in that last release, the user will be faced with paying for a bug fix or rolling back to the "best known version." I agree with the OP in that new content rates significantly lower than work flow enhancements and impeccable stability for me.
The "hitting a moving target" is most obtrusive from my perspective, as trying to keep track of things creates more undue overhead than necessary. In fact, it should not even be required.
Even more disconcerting to me is a recent series of crashes... the VSTi vendor took this VERY seriously (it was a crash after all) and emailed me twice in 24 hours. As someone who takes "field failures" as the #1 tarnish to one's reputation, the response in these forums as of late is often upsetting to see. This is even worse when someone does not have the bandwidth to read/report things, and what is in their lap is "all there is."
This is exactly what some of us were concerned about prior to the new "model". Now that tree has begun to fruit. Some of us just want our tools to work reliably and do not have the time nor inclination to "test" the newest release. Which should not be the job of end-users anyway. I agree with the OP, and am saddened to think we may never have another truly stable version. Yes, it is still early in this new "model". But, previous "E" revisions got allot closer to stable than this one. I am also aware that there are many users ("almost everyone" as Craig puts it) that are happy and have no serious problems. Maybe there are enough happy campers to keep Cakewalk profitable, as that appears to be CW's target. However, I have noticed a few more users shifting sides with each monthly release. I am all for separating fixes from new features from new goodies. Fixes - often Features - when they are actually ready Goodies - whenever CW makes the deal
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
|
Kylotan
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 995
- Joined: 2007/09/10 17:27:35
- Location: Nottingham, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 09:48:43
(permalink)
BobF
It is NOT a "subscription" model!!
Call it what you like, but the fact is that the current situation differs from the old purchase model in that subsequent short-term releases are adding new bugs as well as fixing old ones, which essentially means you have to stay subscribed to get current bugs fixed. Back when people bought X3 there was a reasonable expectation that bug fixes would come, for free, and they did. With the current model, at least 3 of the 5 releases so far have been in a worse state than X3 for me (one because the piano roll view kept changing pane size until no keys were visible, one because it would sporadically drop notes from drum map playback, and one because the drum maps no longer seem to play at all). What are the chances of something being this broken on the last month of my subscription/membership/call it what you will? Currently it's looking like 60%. That's not good enough.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
|
mudgel
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 12010
- Joined: 2004/08/13 00:56:05
- Location: Linton Victoria (Near Ballarat)
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 09:59:01
(permalink)
Kylotan
BobF
It is NOT a "subscription" model!!
Call it what you like, but the fact is that the current situation differs from the old purchase model in that subsequent short-term releases are adding new bugs as well as fixing old ones, which essentially means you have to stay subscribed to get current bugs fixed. Back when people bought X3 there was a reasonable expectation that bug fixes would come, for free, and they did. With the current model, at least 3 of the 5 releases so far have been in a worse state than X3 for me (one because the piano roll view kept changing pane size until no keys were visible, one because it would sporadically drop notes from drum map playback, and one because the drum maps no longer seem to play at all). What are the chances of something being this broken on the last month of my subscription/membership/call it what you will? Currently it's looking like 60%. That's not good enough.
Perhaps you should go back to X3.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
|
ralf
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 205
- Joined: 2010/11/27 05:36:43
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 09:59:37
(permalink)
The alternative is to have a strict separation between development and testing phase. During the testing phase, no new features or other code is introduced, but all branches are put together and changes are made only for bug fixes. Testing and fixing are repeated until the system is stable. But this kind of testing requires more time for a complex systems like Sonar than you can spend each month. So, the monthly release schedule is part of the problem. I am totally aware that interdependencies with 3rd party software and hardware may cause problems that are hard to find by testing for the developer. But we are speaking of bugs in the basic functionality of Sonar. Using PRV with multiple tracks or using drum maps are standard use cases. (Edited to add that this is a reply to lfm.)
post edited by ralf - 2015/05/31 10:08:22
|
Kylotan
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 995
- Joined: 2007/09/10 17:27:35
- Location: Nottingham, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:01:10
(permalink)
mudgel
Kylotan
BobF
It is NOT a "subscription" model!!
Call it what you like, but the fact is that the current situation differs from the old purchase model in that subsequent short-term releases are adding new bugs as well as fixing old ones, which essentially means you have to stay subscribed to get current bugs fixed. Back when people bought X3 there was a reasonable expectation that bug fixes would come, for free, and they did. With the current model, at least 3 of the 5 releases so far have been in a worse state than X3 for me (one because the piano roll view kept changing pane size until no keys were visible, one because it would sporadically drop notes from drum map playback, and one because the drum maps no longer seem to play at all). What are the chances of something being this broken on the last month of my subscription/membership/call it what you will? Currently it's looking like 60%. That's not good enough.
Perhaps you should go back to X3.
Perhaps I should get a working product since I'm paying for it.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
|
mudgel
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 12010
- Joined: 2004/08/13 00:56:05
- Location: Linton Victoria (Near Ballarat)
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:05:03
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/05/31 10:18:35
ralf
The alternative is to have a strict separation between development and testing phase. During the testing phase, no new features or other code is introduced, but all branches are put together and changes are made only for bug fixes. Testing and fixing are repeated until the system is stable. But this kind of testing requires more time for a complex systems like Sonar than you can spend each month. So, the monthly release schedule is part of the problem.
I am totally aware that interdependencies with 3rd party software and hardware may cause problems that are hard to find by testing for the developer. But we are speaking of bugs in the basic functionality of Sonar. Using PRV with multiple tracks or using drum maps are standard use cases.
Clearly from what Noël said (he's the CTO) Cakewalk don't share your opinion. For that matter I don't think the majority of users feel that way either. The word around here is that this has been the most stable version of Sonar ever. And by and large the membership program is proving successful.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
|
ralf
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 205
- Joined: 2010/11/27 05:36:43
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:08:14
(permalink)
While we are talking about new bugs in the E release, am I really the only one who has problems with controllers in controller lanes becoming unusable for multiple tracks in PRV that I reported here?
|
BobF
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8124
- Joined: 2003/11/05 18:43:11
- Location: Missouri - USA
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:10:16
(permalink)
Kylotan
BobF
It is NOT a "subscription" model!!
Call it what you like, but the fact is that the current situation differs from the old purchase model in that subsequent short-term releases are adding new bugs as well as fixing old ones, which essentially means you have to stay subscribed to get current bugs fixed. Back when people bought X3 there was a reasonable expectation that bug fixes would come, for free, and they did. With the current model, at least 3 of the 5 releases so far have been in a worse state than X3 for me (one because the piano roll view kept changing pane size until no keys were visible, one because it would sporadically drop notes from drum map playback, and one because the drum maps no longer seem to play at all). What are the chances of something being this broken on the last month of my subscription/membership/call it what you will? Currently it's looking like 60%. That's not good enough.
There is absolutely NOTHING preventing the following approach: 1. Pay the full update price Jan '15 2. Install NO updates each month, allow updates to accumulate 3. Do a full update in Jan '16. This represents only a marginal cost above the previous annual update model; approx $200 instead of the $180 I was paying back in the early Sonar days. Don't want to wait the full year? Let thing accumulate and settle for 3 months, or 6. Watch the forums for signs of euphoria, THEN do an update. There is nothing preventing anyone from treating this like the 'old way' if that's what they are more comfortable with. Even updating annually there were a lot of folks that sat back and let the smoke clear before doing installing the update. You can still do that. Get a clean image and update. If it doesn't work for you, back out. Maybe your show-stopper gets fixed in a dot-b, or maybe next month. Point is there are more options now.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
|
ralf
Max Output Level: -86 dBFS
- Total Posts : 205
- Joined: 2010/11/27 05:36:43
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:28:38
(permalink)
BobF: Well, except that your suggestion would mean to get no bug fixes at all, or at least still have the risk to select an unstable release. Because there is permanent development, there is permanent risk of regression.
mudgel: I totally agree that Sonar Platinum is pretty stable in total. What I am pointing out is that a monthly release schedule (unlike a major release followed by free bug fix releases) bears a high risk of introducing new bugs each month. And up to now, 2 out of 4 updates had new bugs in basic functionality that were very obvious and far from being caused by special conditions.
|
Kylotan
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 995
- Joined: 2007/09/10 17:27:35
- Location: Nottingham, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:28:48
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby jatoth 2015/05/31 11:45:46
BobF: You're missing the point. Platinum had workflow breaking bugs in the first release - not too surprising as that is what you expect from software these days. In the past I'd wait for a patch and then I'd know that would be more robust. Now, we wait for a patch and more often than not, it fixes one thing and breaks others. The best release for me so far was Dorchester and even that messed up some VSTs with their new MIDI on/off handling. The issue is not that the subscription model forces me to update; it's that Cakewalk seem more blasé about the quality level in what they ship because they know they'll be shipping another update soon anyway. X3E was the 4th attempt at fixing up X3 where their aim was to stop having to ship patches, and quality improved in each one. Sonar Platinum Everett is not the 4th attempt to fix up Sonar Platinum - they fix some bugs but they also add some features, only have a month of testing available, and know there will be another patch soon either way.
Having more options is not good if the options are worse than the fewer options we used to have. If things don't improve then there are going to be a lot of unhappy people once next January rolls around, wondering if they're going to have to pay for another year's membership to fix a bug that was introduced since the last time they bought a membership.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
|
Doktor Avalanche 
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4294
- Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:31:52
(permalink)
Stability = No crashes. The stability thing is a red herring, argue about that till the comes come home (it's stable for me, sorry if it isn't stable for somebody else). Chasing a moving target is the real issue, define what you like as important something is always going to be more important than something else for somebody else. If you aren't regularly releasing builds that fix regression issues before the next new feature set comes along then you are always chasing a moving target (one month your drum maps go, next month it's your 32 bit plugins, or whatever example you choose to use). A monthly cycle can work it just needs tweaking, fix regression issues before you move onto the next feature set (that probably requires two releases a month, one to fix regression bugs, as I stated earlier). Cakewalk say they are going to do it but only for what they class as major issues that don't have workarounds.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/05/31 10:41:02
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
|
Kylotan
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 995
- Joined: 2007/09/10 17:27:35
- Location: Nottingham, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:36:32
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby mettelus 2015/05/31 10:47:24
Yeah, totally. I'm not against the membership model; but if I pay out $149 for some software, I would much rather have 1 decent version of it than a choice between 12 differently-broken ones. Right now, I need anything but Everett or Cambridge for my drums, Everett for one of the 32-bit synths I use, anything but Dorchester to avoid glitches with PLAY, and anything after the initial release if I want to use the Piano Roll. It's getting silly.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
|
BobF
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8124
- Joined: 2003/11/05 18:43:11
- Location: Missouri - USA
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:36:54
(permalink)
Does anybody really believe that development wasn't continuous under the previous model.
If you wait for the smoke to clear before adopting any one of the releases along the way, you will have taken a positive step toward minimizing risk.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
|
brundlefly
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14250
- Joined: 2007/09/14 14:57:59
- Location: Manitou Spgs, Colorado
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:38:31
(permalink)
Kylotan
WE CURRENTLY CANNOT USE THE DRUM MAPS AT ALL.
Shouting something does not make it true. If you reload the map, or reset the output of just one note number, the map will start working. It's only on initial load of a project with an existing map that they don't work. Yes, this makes switching projects frequently kind of a pain, but it's far from unusable.
SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424 (24-bit, 48kHz) Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
|
Kylotan
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 995
- Joined: 2007/09/10 17:27:35
- Location: Nottingham, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:39:53
(permalink)
Continuous development is a given. Nobody pays programmers to sit around doing nothing. The difference is that there was neither pressure to ship something new every month (even if it's a bit undertested) nor the safety net of knowing there would be a chance to fix it later (because every release was considered a big deal).
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
|
Doktor Avalanche
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4294
- Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:40:56
(permalink)
BobF
If you wait for the smoke to clear before adopting any one of the releases along the way, you will have taken a positive step toward minimizing risk.
Yup but you are missing the point, the smoke clears for one issue, and then the fire starts somewhere else. Without a regular stabilization release for regression issues then you are left with choosing the fire you want to cope with I guess (the fire that burns down your next door neighbours flat, rather than your own)....
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/05/31 10:46:59
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
|
Kylotan
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 995
- Joined: 2007/09/10 17:27:35
- Location: Nottingham, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:43:21
(permalink)
brundlefly
Kylotan
WE CURRENTLY CANNOT USE THE DRUM MAPS AT ALL.
Shouting something does not make it true. If you reload the map, or reset the output of just one note number, the map will start working. It's only on initial load of a project with an existing map that they don't work. Yes, this makes switching projects frequently kind of a pain, but it's far from unusable.
So, you found a workaround, well done. This is hardly obvious and I wouldn't have found it myself. At the point where I posted, as far as I was concerned, this was true - the drum maps were not working, at all, in any project.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:44:51
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby joel77 2015/05/31 20:02:43
BENT
Great!!! I was going to update to Everett tonight but now will not, maybe "NOT EVER" this is the very thing that concerned me about the new release system. One has to question if it is a improvement or a step backwards. Yes I know I can roll back, but I don't have time to waste. Rolling back takes less than two minutes. But basically, you have a choice: More frequent updates with lots of bug fixes that may or may not introduce new ones, or yearly updates with 12 months of accumulated bug fixes but which also introduce a bunch of bugs all at once, and which can take months to fix. People have short memories...there were five months of updates to X3, which had quite a few bugs out of the chute - X3a was released before the DVD-ROMs hit the stores. At least with the old system I could wait months before updating to the latest release to make sure the features that are critical for my personal needs are stable. You can do that now. This system is far more flexible in terms of giving choices as to how customers can buy, install, and use their software. So if there's some major bug one month that kills workflow for you, roll back or don't install and wait a month until it's fixed. (I don't think a bug has been introduced in a new release that wasn't fixed in the next month's release - e.g., custom buttons in the control bar persisted only to the right of the bar, which was fixed in the next release.) You can even do quarterly updates if you want. You didn't have the option of doing that with the old system. If there was a showstopper bug, you couldn't use the program and had to wait until the bug was fixed. Also, it's clear from the list of fixes that Cakewalk is paying attention to "popular" bugs. No matter what system is adopted, there will be tradeoffs. The current model is not perfect; no model is. The real question is whether the new model has fewer tradeoffs or more tradeoffs than the older one. I think there is no question that the new model has fewer tradeoffs because YOU choose when to update, and can update only to the extent you want if there's a bug that's essential to your workflow. And getting bug fixes every month, instead of not releasing new fixes when development starts on a new version, is huge.
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:46:08
(permalink)
One other topic that needs to be addressed is the misconception that X3's bug fixes were free. Bug fixes for commercial software are never free. The cost of resources needed to fix bugs is factored into an initial purchase price, or the price of updates.
|
Doktor Avalanche
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4294
- Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:50:19
(permalink)
Anderton
So if there's some major bug one month that kills workflow for you, roll back or don't install and wait a month until it's fixed.
Yup you decide which regression bugs you want to live with, it's a feature.
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
|
BobF
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8124
- Joined: 2003/11/05 18:43:11
- Location: Missouri - USA
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:54:28
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby SteveStrummerUK 2015/05/31 13:05:41
Here's my second to last on the subject: Arguing about the validity of Cakewalk's approach to development and testing without a deep, inside view of what they're doing and how they're do it is pointless. The cleanest possible way to get the concerns about stability across is to point out the problems you're having with recipes to reproduce. Once that is done, it is up to Cakewalk provide fixes, do the tally and make adjustments as appropriate. There are a lot of ridiculous assumptions and accusations in these threads, the most glaring (IMO) being the assumption that things are being released according to a calendar without regard for their readiness. Another is that "we" somehow know more about the best way for them to run their business - with the same lack of inside information.
post edited by BobF - 2015/05/31 11:01:11
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:55:29
(permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
Anderton
So if there's some major bug one month that kills workflow for you, roll back or don't install and wait a month until it's fixed.
Yup you decide which regression bugs you want to live with, it's a feature.
It's an improvement compared to having a year's worth of bugs rolled into a yearly release, at which point you have to either live with all of them, or none of them by not using the new version. Yearly releases had regression bugs too.
|
BobF
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 8124
- Joined: 2003/11/05 18:43:11
- Location: Missouri - USA
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 10:55:45
(permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
BobF
If you wait for the smoke to clear before adopting any one of the releases along the way, you will have taken a positive step toward minimizing risk.
Yup but you are missing the point, the smoke clears for one issue, and then the fire starts somewhere else. Without a regular stabilization release for regression issues then you are left with choosing the fire you want to cope with I guess (the fire that burns down your next door neighbours flat, rather than your own)....
If I install the update from 6 months ago there should be no new fires. Jeez ...
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 11:00:49
(permalink)
BobF
There are a lot of ridiculous assumptions and accusations in these threads, the most glaring (IMO) being the assumption that things are being released according to a calendar without regard for their readiness.
If features had been released according to the calendar, you would have had Drum Replacer in February - that's when it was scheduled to be introduced. It was delayed until it was ready. I think the reaction to it shows the delay was justified. What people don't seem to understand is that development is always ongoing, on multiple parallel tracks. All the tracks undergo testing. When the testing is considered complete for one track, it's ready to go and eligible for release. There have been numerous complaints that Cakewalk is not forthcoming about telling which new features will be introduced, and when. This is done specifically because features are NOT released according to a calendar schedule.
|
mettelus
Max Output Level: -22 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5321
- Joined: 2005/08/05 03:19:25
- Location: Maryland, USA
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 11:01:35
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby jatoth 2015/05/31 11:54:18
BobF
Does anybody really believe that development wasn't continuous under the previous model.
This is absolutely true, but the flip side is that (under the previous model) decisions are made to promote stability in "what exists" with harder work to be updated/included at a later point. This is why versioning is locked. In fact, the monthly updates now are discreet versions (on a monthly basis rather than yearly - essentially 20 working days per release); but seemingly with more intent to stuff us like a Thanksgiving turkey with "fluff," than to address what users have requested for years. Now that the "assembly line" has been set in motion, I do not believe that adequate resources are left to perfect work flow requests (and there are a lot). Even in marketing videos, the "content" of what people can assume about something is minimal (I had to hide the CW instruments forum because of the backlash to Rap Pro). I certainly am not excited to watch the train truck down the tracks with "fluff FIRST" being the #1 priority for a "release." Give the users something... anything... and they will be happy? Unfortunately, the new membership model essentially mandates a monthly update, even though many early on said they would be fine with things less frequent as long as it was functional and stable.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
|
lfm
Max Output Level: -53 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2216
- Joined: 2005/01/24 05:35:33
- Location: Sweden
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 11:04:58
(permalink)
ralf
The alternative is to have a strict separation between development and testing phase. During the testing phase, no new features or other code is introduced, but all branches are put together and changes are made only for bug fixes. Testing and fixing are repeated until the system is stable. But this kind of testing requires more time for a complex systems like Sonar than you can spend each month. So, the monthly release schedule is part of the problem.
I am totally aware that interdependencies with 3rd party software and hardware may cause problems that are hard to find by testing for the developer. But we are speaking of bugs in the basic functionality of Sonar. Using PRV with multiple tracks or using drum maps are standard use cases.
(Edited to add that this is a reply to lfm.)
Been there - done that, kind of. Every little change in code - should go through and test every aspect of the product. And it's still no good without beta testing. You must make a fair estimation what might be affected by a change. Introducing drum maps into track templates - well, that means you should test everything about drum maps. Clear mistake on this estimation that they don't open properly from projects anymore. To be fair - shouldn't we separate "being stable" from "all is working as intended" also. - Is there anything reported that go under "not stable"? It's rather serious if new bugs puts your work to a halt - I can understand that fully. So your disappointment is valid. What were they working on that they did not test if multiple tracks editing worked as intended? I will have a look at your link unless this is confirmed already. But don't think all development should be put to a halt either - because your process for getting things released would mean that, more or less. I think Kamikaze idea to do nothing until newly added bugs is first on todo list and fixed - is the way to go. Maybe an intermediate fix even between regular periods - showing extra concern about the matter. - Nobody leave the building until this is fixed, kindof.  There is a risk of human nature that knowing there is a new release soon, one does not pay enough attention before a release. But now brought to Cakewalk's attention - this might be improved in the coming releases.
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 11:07:53
(permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
Yup but you are missing the point, the smoke clears for one issue, and then the fire starts somewhere else.
This happened with yearly releases, too, except all the smoke cleared for some bugs and all the fires started somewhere else simultaneously. The main difference is that the monthly release allows for quick fixes, more regularly. I don't think anything is naive enough to argue the new model is flawless. But it would be equally naive to argue the old model was flawless, or for that matter, ANY software sales and update model is flawless. Again, it's all about tradeoffs. If you look back objectively at X3's post-release trajectory and Platinum's post-release trajectory, I think it's obvious which gave more substantive progress in a shorter period of time.
|
Doktor Avalanche
Max Output Level: -32.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 4294
- Joined: 2015/03/26 18:02:02
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 11:10:26
(permalink)
Anderton
What people don't seem to understand is that development is always ongoing, on multiple parallel tracks. All the tracks undergo testing. When the testing is considered complete for one track, it's ready to go and eligible for release.
And yet drum maps weren't regression tested after fixing a drum map template issue. It wasn't exactly obscure to say the least. Here's a scenario to consider.... Last release there were issues with track templates which got fixed in this release (haven't tested but feedback in problem reports forum looks good). This release issues with drum maps in templates were fixed which broke projects. So I'm left with a choice as to which I have to cope with (or roll back further and cope with another issue). If the bakers concentrated on one specific area for improving work flow and bug fixing, then I will know what release to avoid. For instance if one single release fixed the signal path for drum maps, fixed drum maps in Sonar templates, and launched an improved drum map UI, I know that release is probably worth avoiding for that month because there will be regression issues, but at least it will be probably be all over and done the next month. If on the other hand it is drip fed over a number of months then I stand to get disruption. Right now this is the second clear regression issue with drum maps (the other one is when we though the signal path was fixed, but it turned out to be a red herring).
Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
|
John
Forum Host
- Total Posts : 30467
- Joined: 2003/11/06 11:53:17
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 11:11:03
(permalink)
I don't know what regression bugs are. Its a term that is very new to me. I have some vague understanding about what regression testing is. I wont use these terms in a post because I don't know enough about them to be confident that I am talking about something I know well enough to say something about them. I can say I have never done regression testing. At least not knowingly.
Its possible that some members know what these things are. I suspect that most don't.
It would help greatly if we all stopped using terms we know nothing about in trying to make a point when all that really happens with their use is confusion and making things unclear. If however when a term is introduced explaining it in detail might make its use productive.
|
Kylotan
Max Output Level: -71 dBFS
- Total Posts : 995
- Joined: 2007/09/10 17:27:35
- Location: Nottingham, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Concerns about reliability and the subscription model
2015/05/31 11:13:53
(permalink)
Anderton
At least with the old system I could wait months before updating to the latest release to make sure the features that are critical for my personal needs are stable.
You can do that now. This system is far more flexible in terms of giving choices as to how customers can buy, install, and use their software. No, I cannot, because the releases are not getting more stable. The real question is whether the new model has fewer tradeoffs or more tradeoffs than the older one. I think there is no question that the new model has fewer tradeoffs because YOU choose when to update, and can update only to the extent you want if there's a bug that's essential to your workflow. In the past, I could buy a version of Sonar with the features I wanted, and know that it would only get more stable as patches were released. That's been the case since the Pro Audio days. Now, I can buy a version of Sonar with the features I want, and I just have to hope that the patch releases fix more than they break.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
|