Helpful ReplyLockedHello from BandLab [Updated 21/3/2018]

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Internalized Sun
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/10 16:14:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby overdub 2018/03/13 09:38:34
I was devastated when I found out that Gibson had ceased all development on Sonar.
And I do mean "found out"...
NOTHING was communicated to the customers in the existing email lists. The only way to find out was going to cakewalk.com or getting the information from other community boards (kvr etc.)
I now know that the ceased development is now a thing of the past - but again, I found out by coincidence by going to cakewalk.com.
Why did you not send out the happy news through the customer email lists?
With this wonderful news I'm finally breathing normally again and I could have breathed normally again a lot sooner 
 
Looking forward to be a part of the whole BandLab Technologies collective - hoping it does not resemble the Borg collective at all
Thank you Meng for being so enlightening in your posts!

2+4 ~ 5?!? Why don't I get the math behind DSP programming?!

Windows 10 Pro x64 , i7 980X, 12GB RAM
Sonar Platinum
Music made at home with Sonar 5/6/8 Producer and Sonar Platinum Edition at:
http://soundcloud.com/internalized-sun
RTA
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/10 16:35:41 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby deswind 2018/03/10 23:40:28
Lifetime updates ?
 
I can't believe people are still banging on about this. I bought 'lifetime updates' too.
 
Which would you rather have ?
Lifetime updates for a dead product [i.e. none] or the continuation of the Sonar product you are familiar with ?
Whatever happens will be better than having Sonar condemned to the software graveyard.
 
Thank you Bandlab for giving us hope and I look forward to the new dawn, whatever it brings.
AlanSJackson
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/10 19:11:37 (permalink)
Well. I hope this all bodes well for our futures. The latest SPLAT version has caused some timing issues that didn't exist before. At least I know I can still roll back.
 
Never really liked the name SONAR, it having an underwater link. As your'e being so above board, may I suggest RADAR?
GMGM
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/10 19:18:39 (permalink)
AlanSJackson
Well. I hope this all bodes well for our futures. The latest SPLAT version has caused some timing issues that didn't exist before. At least I know I can still roll back.
 
Never really liked the name SONAR, it having an underwater link. As your'e being so above board, may I suggest RADAR?





 
FYI - there already is a recording platform called Radar
 
http://www.izcorp.com/products/radar/
 
 

 
DAW: SONAR Platinum
PC: i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz, ASUS Motherboard, 16G RAM
OS: Windows 10 Home 64-bit I/O: MOTU 8M / MOTU 8PRE / PreSonus DigimaxLT / M-Audio Oxygen 49
Category 11
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/10 21:38:13 (permalink)
Awesome...awesome...awesome.  Can't wait for the news!
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/11 11:27:20 (permalink)
RTA
Lifetime updates ?
 
I can't believe people are still banging on about this. I bought 'lifetime updates' too.
 
Which would you rather have ?
Lifetime updates for a dead product [i.e. none] or the continuation of the Sonar product you are familiar with ?
Whatever happens will be better than having Sonar condemned to the software graveyard.
 
Thank you Bandlab for giving us hope and I look forward to the new dawn, whatever it brings.


Couldn't agree more.
 
Everyone who opted for the Lifetime Updates offer got exactly that!
 
It's a shame the lifespan wasn't as long as some people hoped.
 
Gaff: "It's too bad she won't live, then again who does?".


CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughout
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jbow
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/11 15:45:37 (permalink)
Hi Meng.
Thank you so much. I hope everything goes smoothly. I know Lifetime Updates are gone. I think we are doing good to get a crossgrade from SPLAT to whatever name you decide on which of course should be HARMONY... since you already own the name.
Julien

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Control Pad
mics. 
I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
VanessaJ
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/11 16:22:51 (permalink)
Welcome, and THANK YOU for taking the risk with the hope of moving Cakewalk/Sonar into the future. I wish you every success, and let us all hope it is a good marriage!!

"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart" ~ Confucius
 
Sonar Platinum;  Windows 10, 16gb RAM;  Mackie Onyx Blackbird FW Interface;  4 Keyboards, 2 Native American flutes, 7 guitars, several pedals, a Roland Jazz Chorus amp, some mics, some B/W posters, a roll-y foot massager, partridge in a pear tree (and lotsa' other cool sh*t  )
VanessaJ
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/11 16:28:58 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
RTA
Lifetime updates ?
 
I can't believe people are still banging on about this. I bought 'lifetime updates' too.
 
Which would you rather have ?
Lifetime updates for a dead product [i.e. none] or the continuation of the Sonar product you are familiar with ?
Whatever happens will be better than having Sonar condemned to the software graveyard.
 

Couldn't agree more.
 
Everyone who opted for the Lifetime Updates offer got exactly that!
 
It's a shame the lifespan wasn't as long as some people hoped.
 



I'm with you there, too! We who bought lifetime updates, got updates for the "lifetime" of Sonar under Gibson. Can't help but wonder now if Gibson wasn't already planning on cutting Sonar loose when they came up with Lifetime Updates. Seemed to me like the asking price at the time was awfully small for what we all THOUGHT was the lifetime of US, the users!

"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart" ~ Confucius
 
Sonar Platinum;  Windows 10, 16gb RAM;  Mackie Onyx Blackbird FW Interface;  4 Keyboards, 2 Native American flutes, 7 guitars, several pedals, a Roland Jazz Chorus amp, some mics, some B/W posters, a roll-y foot massager, partridge in a pear tree (and lotsa' other cool sh*t  )
Afrodrum
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/11 18:56:35 (permalink)
Hi Meng,
 
It is a great relief Sonar is in good hands again. For last two months I was checking other DAWs, spent most time on Reaper, Studio One and Cubase and conclusion is Sonar excellent DAW, it should not go away, few tweaks and it would be superior to all the others (Windows). I am sure you will get great support from community, good luck in all you do. 

Windows 10/64, Intel i7 Xeon X6575 3,07GHz, 24Gb RAM, chipset: Intel X58 Express, Kingston SSD 240Gb,  Sonar Platinum , Edirol UA-25.  (Some extra VSTs: PSP almost all/  IK - AT4, ST3, / AAS - all/ TH3 full/ +10dB/ Melodyne Editor). EVE sc205 monitors, Defil Kosmos guitar, blue lava lamp, ashtray.  And there is some great music you may find at: https://soundcloud.com/pawel-jan-1
 
 
 
 
jm24
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/11 19:03:43 (permalink)
I do wish the OP had been emailed to us all.
 
Would have been good business to have been sending us updates instead of just posting here.
 
I assume at some point we will get messages about the changes, and how to join the new forum,....
 
 
 
 
defremov85
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/11 20:21:55 (permalink)
Meng,
 
Thank you very much for this update. I was really thrilled to hear these amazing news (and that was a very good management update). TDDFKAS's future is in good hands! Wish you and your team the very best of luck!
 
P.S. I was in the middle of moving to Reaper (now I am not :) ). But even with the fact that Reaper is a very powerful piece of software, SONAR feels a lot more mature and like...home.
MandolinPicker
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/11 21:57:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2018/03/12 13:28:10
jm24
I assume at some point we will get messages about the changes, and how to join the new forum,....

If you want information e-mailed to you from the folks at BandLab you will need to sign up for their e-mail list. You can find it on the Cakewalk announcement page at https://cakewalk.bandlab.com/. Scroll to the bottom and there is a place to enter your e-mail address.
 
Not sure if the Cakewalk IP that BandLab purchased included customer listings and e-mail addresses. Even if it did the original Terms of Service (TOS) from Cakewalk might have said that your e-mail can't be used by a third party (never read the TOS myself so I don't know).

The Mandolin Picker
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Windows 8.1, Sonar Platinum (64-bit), AMD FX 6120 Six-Core, 10GB RAM
listen
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/12 01:38:39 (permalink)
Excited to see and use what is to come...

- Listen -
FOH Mixer & Recording Studio Manager
Nothing but the grace of God - mggtg.



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dfp123
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/12 15:11:36 (permalink)
Glad to see the news about Sonar's resurrection through BandLab. After hearing of Sonar's demise, I had moved on to a new DAW and was planning on keeping Sonar active for older projects (past experience with EOL softward lead to this decision).
 
Recently I upgraded to a new computer and needed to reinstall Sonar, which went very smoothly. Unfortunately, many of the vst and 3rd party plugins were installed in different locations and I am now unable to accurately open most of my prior projects. And appears that it is not possible, in Sonar, to reroute the path to a vst/plugin to a different location than when was originally saved.
 
My hopes is that the new app through BandLab will enable us to open Sonar files and be able to choose new paths to plugins that may have moved locations.
michael diemer
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/12 17:12:18 (permalink)
dfp123
Glad to see the news about Sonar's resurrection through BandLab. After hearing of Sonar's demise, I had moved on to a new DAW and was planning on keeping Sonar active for older projects (past experience with EOL softward lead to this decision).
 
Recently I upgraded to a new computer and needed to reinstall Sonar, which went very smoothly. Unfortunately, many of the vst and 3rd party plugins were installed in different locations and I am now unable to accurately open most of my prior projects. And appears that it is not possible, in Sonar, to reroute the path to a vst/plugin to a different location than when was originally saved.
 
My hopes is that the new app through BandLab will enable us to open Sonar files and be able to choose new paths to plugins that may have moved locations.


Can you not add the pathway to your plugin tool and re-run your scan?

michael diemer
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dfp123
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/12 17:27:25 (permalink)
I have added the new directories to the plugin location in preferences and rescanned, but it is not syncing within the project, since the plugin is not in the exact same location. I searched through the forums and seemed like others had the same issues. The plugins are available for a new project, just not syncing with a preexisting project where it was loaded from a different location.
post edited by dfp123 - 2018/03/12 18:28:55
mghauber
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/12 18:43:53 (permalink)
Great news for all involved!!!! Looking forward to the future. This SPLAT user is all in.
ch.huey
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/12 21:33:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/03/13 17:21:14
Just some thoughts in general, probably repeating but this is a long thread that has gotten a little childish at a few points (subscription or not...), so I jumped through a few pages, but :

I just turned 36 and might be the tail end of the last generation that had this kind of experience, and can see this from 2 sides. I have used social media in the past to promote material, but started out recording on tape before social media really existed. I learned to think the way I do because of the latter part, so excuse me if this is a little long-winded, but I haven't really seen anyone spell this out.

My first real recording unit was a Tascam 424 mkii 4 track cassette recording machine in high school. I had a cheap DOD mixer that I could use externally for 'extra channels' to avoid a mono mixdown reduction on rare occasions I had enough budget mics to use it, but it was hardware... for about a year, and about 2000 I switched over to a revolving amount of digital platforms, reducing the 424 itself to just a mixer. Finally I switched over to an actual PCI sound card, and it's been all digital since then. During high school I read rec.audio.pro obsessively, as well as every Zappa interview on the web then (that's an entire recording education there). I had low quality gear but I was used to making the best/borrowing/begging until I can borrow with all the digital benefits, but I still approached it the way I heard the Beatles used to record on analog tape, with that mentality of music into a recording machine, not the recording machine is where music originates.

I bounced around with a lot of free software or using a shared rig so I never really put any real money down on very expensive sophisticated software while running a band that played original music and made no money, writing music and recording it myself, but most of the stuff I bounced between was pretty easy to figure out because the software looked, and behaved, like a digital version of my old Tascam at heart. Channels, aux's, main bus. Simple, and you can figure it out pretty quickly. Throw in studying The Handbook for Sound Engineers cover to cover, and used books on acoustics, electronics, and you can figure out how to make your Rhodes with no sustain pedal sound like a Hammond with enough outboard FX, or free software, if you put the time in and apply the knowledge. No presets for that. But also no giant noise floor from tape either - the best of both. I have a lot of great organ samples now - but none sound like compression and flanging the life out of a Rhodes piano. That ability to create unique sounds is something I still value with all the 24 bit premade samples in the world at my fingetips to this day.

I made the last of my albums with my band on a shared workstation with Sonar 6. It felt like a mixer, worked like one, and was great, wanted to buy, then got angry enough finally and walked away from music and unreliable musicians for nearly a decade after one too many drummers dropped out suddenly. Just done with it all.

I came back a few years ago and wow. Ableton, Kontakt, etc. Don't need the unreliable musicians nearly as much. I can replace the people who annoyed me with MIDI based samples that sound, and smell, better. Software plugins got a lot better. Things changed and they changed fast. But at my heart of hearts, I'm still back in my garage in high school trying to play my friend's borrowed drumset onto a 4 track so I can put my music together bit by bit. I need a digital mixer/tape deck that has all the benefits of digital, and none of the drawbacks of the old Tascam. Everything else is a bonus.

I finally went with Sonar Platinum, and bought a lifetime Platinum membership while it was on sale for $399 so I could go back to making music without the drawbacks of relying so much on other musicians. I'd had so many good experiences with Cakewalk in the past as the platform still feels like at its heart of hearts, it's just a really fancy digital mixer and as long as you know how to work a mixer, there's no giant mystery in how Sonar works. It's intuitive for someone like me. Had to borrow money to afford it during the limited time offer since I didn't want to pay in installments, then renew that yearly so I grabbed a lifetime ownership so I'd be set with what felt like was a tool, not a toy. Expensive for a hobby but worth it.

Which lasted about a year ... during which time I barely had a chance to use it. Can't say that doesn't sting, but what stung most was the idea that Sonar would end when I finally settled down on it and got fast in it from the little I did get to use it.

All this is to say that I am not an old fart who is set in his ways, but I get the distinct feel that a lot of the programs I tried out when Sonar seemed like it might die off, are oriented toward people who are too young to know how to run a real mixer, or know how to record a song by getting good takes down with the right FX already on it, and then mixing it through a main bus with nothing but a single Aux reverb if necessary. Not saying everyone should do that at all - but if I'm recording, I think I should know the history of it, and why things are the way they are, how Les Paul got his sound on sound mono recordings, etc etc. I feel like I have better control of the digital tools because I know what they do, and why they came into being. I learned to edit digital audio before it was super easy to find zero crossings, so I've never bothered to learn to let the program find it for me since it's faster manually - and I know why it's important, which many people surprisingly don't.

My point being, I may not actually be an old fart, but I feel like I am one. And since I may as well be one it seems, there are a few concerns I have seen voiced but not quite voiced together, and Sonar=WhatWillBeSonar for the sake of the following...

- KEEP SONAR OFFLINE. I remember the days of hunting down IRQ conflicts in 2000/XP, having a separate install for your audio system (still do) and disabling the LAN card (still do). I only went in for Command Center because of laziness, but my audio system is locked, does no go online except for Sonar, does not update and is on Win7. Please no cloud BS. Optional? Sure. Mandatory. No. Please. I want to be able to opt out. I don't care how easy it is to share on facebook directly. I would rather mix it down to wav, export, convert it myself, then upload it. I'm just that way. I don't want to change that part workflow.

- KEEP SONAR FEELING LIKE A DIGITAL MIXER, not a toy. This is why I bought a lifetime upgrade, because underneath the different kinds of views, loops, options and all that, I can still throw up some tracks, get my USB mixer out, use console view and feel like I'm at a console mixing in real time. I know a lot of people have no idea how Aux sends work, or why you create a bus for toms and compress them together instead of (insert 1000 other ways to do it here), but some of us like that old feel - the limitations give us inspiration sometimes. I hate drawing envelope curves for volume or panning, however convenient. Making it too accessible at the expense of losing the heritage of working on a digital version of a mixer/tape machine will be too alienating. I'm constantly amazed at how far programs are going to make it easy to make cheese using premade products, versus expecting the user to step outside the cradle and have a tiny learning curve. Music doesn't seem to have gotten any better due to ease of use from my perspective, nor was it better when it was more difficult, so I don't think making it as easy as possible helps with 'better'.

- I DON'T FEEL SCREWED THAT I LIKELY WON'T HAVE LIFETIME UGPRADES/ROLLING UPDATES ANYMORE THAT I PAID $399 FOR. Well, I do a little. I still blame Gibson, but I get it. The IP was bought, not the program. I understand the difference. The program will run for a while, hopefully a few updates more at least, but it will eventually become a new program from the code and as long as I can crossgrade to a Sonar with a different name, I won't feel like I got screwed by the lack of lifetime upgrades I paid for because it's 'technically' not Sonar anymore, though that lifetime option would be nice to buy if it comes with rolling updates/upgrades. Again I blame Gibson for what seems like a crass attempt to milk... I'll stop there but you get my point. Glad Sonar is away from Gibson, even if it won't be the same program as I bought into.

This is kind of my point. I know Sonar won't be Sonar anymore, I'll keep my Sonar installed as is for as long as possible, and that's fine, but things are going to change. Sonar is going bye bye eventually as we know it.

Please don't lose the things that made Sonar feel like Sonar in the new not-Sonar, whatever it's called from now on. As a customer it feels like I'm being asked to move to a house with the same furniture, not stay in the same house I bought, even if the furniture is technically the same. I bought the house and the furniture, but life happens and you do have to move eventually. My concern the more I look at Bandlab, the more I see a "cutting edge company that empowers users to create content on a platform that is easy to use, all in one, easy to share across multiple social media platforms" etc etc, the more worried I get that whatever Sonar turns into, it will drift away from my Tascam mkii 4 track upbringing, which is literally the opposite of what I just put in quotes above.

The 4 track cassette tape mentality made me think before recording, made me plan, made me make decisions because I didn't have the luxuries someone growing up today has, and definitely made me better at music, so when I went digital I didn't end up falling down major rabbit holes that I see people go down today.

I talked to a friend a while back, and she told me her teenage son was in his room creating music. I asked if he was playing his bass, and she said 'Playing his bass? No, he's making music, he has his (beatstep?) out and is using loops to find something he likes.' She went on in a little more detail but I got the picture - he didn't even need to play an instrument to make music, despite playing one. He wants stuff to show his friends as soon as he finishes it. I can understand that.

I asked if he ever sat down with an instrument, wrote music and lyrics, figured out an arrangement, then used his software as a tool to record his composition, revise it and then improve it. He hadn't. I guess it hadn't occured to him that he could do that, or that anyone ever did that at any point. Nothing wrong with how he did it, but when she told me what kind of software he used, I realized that it actively discouraged him from even thinking that way. I just don't want to be forced into that situation by how new NotSonar is developed.

Sonar still lets me think that way. Please keep whatever Sonar will turn into a program that lets me go off with my guitar, a notepad/sheet music, portable recorder, then come back to build my tracks up with the software being a tool that helps me built it bit by bit. My cell phone is on silent when I'm working on music and the door is closed, since I'm not online, and I'm focused on creating or realizing something I have in my head. When I got it right, then I throw it up online - but the lack of ability to do so directly is a GREAT way of 'helping' me not get too eager and share too early. I see a big problem with people doing that now, sending stuff out before it's finished because it's convenient. I didn't grow up with the ability so I guess I'm not the target audience for Bandlab right now, that much is clear. Even Sonar Platinum has a lot of great features... I simply don't need. If I want a looped guitar part playing a funk riff for 3 minutes, I record myself playing the same funk riff for 3 minutes. I turn off my phone and play my instruments. I appreciate the ability to loop, but I'd rather shut my door, and play instruments.

That closed door mentality is what I worry will be lost. I'd rather lose my lifetime updates than keep it and lose that closed door mentality that Sonar still definitely has. Bandlab's web page says 'join our community.' I am just a cranky person who likes being alone and making weird music - Sonar lets me do that, without being a part of a community. I may or may not even show someone music I create - I spent $399 just to amuse myself with a hobby for fun. Change isn't bad, as long as it is adding new features to a great product, not fundamentally changing a great product to be something that takes the hiding in your garage with your 4 track recorder and play instruments for fun, even if you never show it to anyone else.

I'd be thrilled about having the lifetime update package I bought when money was scarce for me for a hobby to amuse myself, but I'm not naive or unrealistic, and I'd be more thrilled at keeping the program as one I'd want a lifetime update package for in the first place. Bandlab seems very progressive, which might be good, but does seem to have its own aesthetic, which doesn't mesh with the loner with an offline computer making weird music to amuse himself while cackling wildly aesthetic.

Just some thoughts from reading this very, very, very long thread... Hopefully there will be good news for the minority group of weirdos I belong to that likes how Sonar has always stuck to its mixer-like recording roots in a way other DAWS haven't. The modern day recluse composing weirdo refuses to die, but has sure taken a beating on platforms to work with ease. I hope Bandlab keeps the same place Sonar kept for people like me who got into it on tape despite tape being a pain, simply because it was fun to do on your own.
 
Sorry for the long post but I hadn't seen anyone address this quite as such. It'd be nice to be reassured at some point there will be a still be a place for the reclusive weirdos at Bandlab's platform!

 
larkvoz
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 02:01:05 (permalink)
Iwas hoping for something like this to occur and, I held off on a new DAW.  Thank you Bandlab!
stxx
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 02:04:42 (permalink)
dfp123
I have added the new directories to the plugin location in preferences and rescanned, but it is not syncing within the project, since the plugin is not in the exact same location. I searched through the forums and seemed like others had the same issues. The plugins are available for a new project, just not syncing with a preexisting project where it was loaded from a different location.


The plugin does not have to be in the same location.  Sonar just needs to find it.  You will get a message which I do not recall now exactly what it says but it will use the one at the "new" location instead and  still work.  I have reloaded Sonar on 4 computers (or maybe even more) consolidating VST/plugin folders along the way.  I reloaded all my old plugs too but some are now in different folders and or relative paths.  All my projects still work except one that use the ole' Pantheon reverb but I chose not to go through the trouble to get that one installed

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https://soundcloud.com/allen-lind/sets/oth-short
dfp123
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 02:53:55 (permalink)
stxx
The plugin does not have to be in the same location.  Sonar just needs to find it.  You will get a message which I do not recall now exactly what it says but it will use the one at the "new" location instead and  still work. 



Great to know. Not sure why I'm getting those issues. I'll look into it further, double check those plugins are actually installed and referenced properly.
michael diemer
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 03:14:46 (permalink)
Thank you ch.huey for an interesting read! Thanks for taking the time to give us your thoughts in such depth. I'm sure that the Bandlab folks will appreciate your experience, and it is my hope that your desire to keep Sonar available as a desktop program will be respected. They have stated that it would be a desktop, but people seem to be getting nervous that it will migrate to the cloud eventually. I hope that does not happen. At most, give us the option to do either. Let us use Sonar (whatever it will be named) offline, and upload, share, collaborate etc. if we want. But also just keep using it offline if that is our wish. I understand that there may be an annual fee to use it, they have to make money somehow. That's fine.
 
All we know now is that our beloved DAW, which was looking dead in the water, now has a chance at new life. We are hopeful it will look and function much the way it does now. But all we can do at present is wait, and hope. And let them know our thoughts, which you have done so profoundly.

michael diemer
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stratman70
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 14:06:46 (permalink)
Considering what Bandlab actually is now and Meng said it would be "desktop" I figure it will be both\optional at some point. And that's fine.Very Fine!

 
 
Skyline_UK
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 15:10:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby losguy 2018/03/13 15:55:51
ch.huey
.....
I talked to a friend a while back, and she told me her teenage son was in his room creating music. I asked if he was playing his bass, and she said 'Playing his bass? No, he's making music, he has his (beatstep?) out and is using loops to find something he likes.' She went on in a little more detail but I got the picture - he didn't even need to play an instrument to make music, despite playing one. He wants stuff to show his friends as soon as he finishes it. I can understand that.

I asked if he ever sat down with an instrument, wrote music and lyrics, figured out an arrangement, then used his software as a tool to record his composition, revise it and then improve it. He hadn't. I guess it hadn't occured to him that he could do that, or that anyone ever did that at any point. Nothing wrong with how he did it, but when she told me what kind of software he used, I realized that it actively discouraged him from even thinking that way. I just don't want to be forced into that situation by how new NotSonar is developed....


You've touched on something there that deeply troubles me.
 
But first, an aside on 'old farts', I'm old (69), but I don't see why that should have the word 'fart' added to it to make a derogatory epithet for anyone who has more years on the clock than someone else and whose opinions and beliefs can be safely ignored.  In the awful SJW climate we are now living in, I thought it was a really bad thing to label anyone for their race, creed, sex and, well, anything really, but for some reason it seems fair game to insult the 'non-young'.  I think it's maybe a Western civilisation aberration; many more mature cultures revere and respect the experience and wisdom of the older members of their societies.  We are currently over-obsessed with a 'get with the program' imperative - why?  Anyway, I saw Jimi Hendrix play live, so there.
 
Back to your salient comment on how some youngsters think they're making music with loops. Let's just get this out there. They're not making music. We mustn't fall into the trap of thinking we need to defy our knowledge and wisdom and think the opposite of what we know is true for fear of being labelled 'Luddite', 'old', etc. We must feel free NOT to be persuaded that "That's how they're doing it now. It's modern and equally valid as learning an instrument was in your day. And by definition, as it's modern it must be good and therefore it's YOU that doesn't understand its validity".  Utter bollocks. Stringing together snippets ('loops') of music made by musicians on instruments is not making music. End of.  Anyway, I like to think that for every bedroom beats copy and paster there is at least one other youngster learning the joy of connecting with a musical instrument and actually expressing what's in their heart and head by making music with it.
 
(I thought my journey to a post count milestone warranted a little brain dump!)
   

My stuff
 
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Band In A Box 2016, Ozone 8
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BandLab page
James Argo
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 15:58:26 (permalink)
Thank you so much BandLab. Thank you soooo very much!!!
What you do really means a lot to us. I really appreciate it with all my heart.
 
Long Live Cakewalk!!!

Cakewalk by BandLab!
michael diemer
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 16:25:49 (permalink)
Skyline_UK
ch.huey
.....
I talked to a friend a while back, and she told me her teenage son was in his room creating music. I asked if he was playing his bass, and she said 'Playing his bass? No, he's making music, he has his (beatstep?) out and is using loops to find something he likes.' She went on in a little more detail but I got the picture - he didn't even need to play an instrument to make music, despite playing one. He wants stuff to show his friends as soon as he finishes it. I can understand that.

I asked if he ever sat down with an instrument, wrote music and lyrics, figured out an arrangement, then used his software as a tool to record his composition, revise it and then improve it. He hadn't. I guess it hadn't occured to him that he could do that, or that anyone ever did that at any point. Nothing wrong with how he did it, but when she told me what kind of software he used, I realized that it actively discouraged him from even thinking that way. I just don't want to be forced into that situation by how new NotSonar is developed....


You've touched on something there that deeply troubles me.
 
But first, an aside on 'old farts', I'm old (69), but I don't see why that should have the word 'fart' added to it to make a derogatory epithet for anyone who has more years on the clock than someone else and whose opinions and beliefs can be safely ignored.  In the awful SJW climate we are now living in, I thought it was a really bad thing to label anyone for their race, creed, sex and, well, anything really, but for some reason it seems fair game to insult the 'non-young'.  I think it's maybe a Western civilisation aberration; many more mature cultures revere and respect the experience and wisdom of the older members of their societies.  We are currently over-obsessed with a 'get with the program' imperative - why?  Anyway, I saw Jimi Hendrix play live, so there.
 
Back to your salient comment on how some youngsters think they're making music with loops. Let's just get this out there. They're not making music. We mustn't fall into the trap of thinking we need to defy our knowledge and wisdom and think the opposite of what we know is true for fear of being labelled 'Luddite', 'old', etc. We must feel free NOT to be persuaded that "That's how they're doing it now. It's modern and equally valid as learning an instrument was in your day. And by definition, as it's modern it must be good and therefore it's YOU that doesn't understand its validity".  Utter bollocks. Stringing together snippets ('loops') of music made by musicians on instruments is not making music. End of.  Anyway, I like to think that for every bedroom beats copy and paster there is at least one other youngster learning the joy of connecting with a musical instrument and actually expressing what's in their heart and head by making music with it.
 
(I thought my journey to a post count milestone warranted a little brain dump!)
   


+1

michael diemer
Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge
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GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
 
 
 
 
cparmerlee
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 16:49:31 (permalink)
Skyline_UK
how some youngsters think they're making music with loops. Let's just get this out there. They're not making music.

Dragging loops is to making music as using a cable TV remote is to creating a TV drama.  Or as ordering from a restaurant menu is to being a 5-star chef.  Picking from a list isn't "creating music".
 
Having said that, there can certainly be some artistry in using some of these elements are part of a larger work.  I don't think Picasso made his own paints or brushes.  There is some gray line between robotic loops and actual artistry.
 
And even if there is no "making music" happening, I hope that the process of selecting loops does provide some educational value.  I don't see where it can cause harm.

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abacab
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 16:59:51 (permalink)
cparmerlee
 
And even if there is no "making music" happening, I hope that the process of selecting loops does provide some educational value.  I don't see where it can cause harm.



At any rate I am certain that it is safe to call it "art".  Painting with sound, if you will... 
 
Has anybody noticed that many of the younger beatmakers refer to themselves as "producers" or DJs" these days?  Many not explicitly self-describing as musicians, which would imply the ability to play an instrument.
 
Is that a recognition of a new role in creating sounds or performances of the new sonic "art"?

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
sharke
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 17:00:28 (permalink)
Skyline_UK
Back to your salient comment on how some youngsters think they're making music with loops. Let's just get this out there. They're not making music. We mustn't fall into the trap of thinking we need to defy our knowledge and wisdom and think the opposite of what we know is true for fear of being labelled 'Luddite', 'old', etc. We must feel free NOT to be persuaded that "That's how they're doing it now. It's modern and equally valid as learning an instrument was in your day. And by definition, as it's modern it must be good and therefore it's YOU that doesn't understand its validity".  Utter bollocks. Stringing together snippets ('loops') of music made by musicians on instruments is not making music. End of.  Anyway, I like to think that for every bedroom beats copy and paster there is at least one other youngster learning the joy of connecting with a musical instrument and actually expressing what's in their heart and head by making music with it.



This is a little narrow minded but not an infrequent view expressed in the Sonar community. People who rant about kids "making music with loops" are usually coming from a position of ignorance, in that they don't really know what goes into the kind of music the kids are creating and how they're using loops. The idea that they're just dragging 16 bar loops into the DAW and extending them across the timeline and saying they wrote a song is just not true. At least, for the vast majority of people making modern music which utilizes loops. 
 
In fact there is a LOT of musical creativity going on, arguably more so than someone who's been banging out 3 chord songs on a guitar their whole lives. Loops are usually only part of the story, and even when they're used they're being edited and spliced and rearranged and mangled in all kinds of creative ways in order to create something new. It's no less creative than an artist creating sculptures from junk found in a scrapyard (and some of that stuff is amazing). The idea that there is no musical talent or ability behind it is ridiculous. You have to have a keen musical ear to arrange samples into something new, just as you have to have a keen artistic eye to arrange old engine parts into a sculpture of an animal (or whatever). 
 
You don't have to perform with an instrument to compose music. Clicking notes in a piano roll is no different to writing notation down on paper - the computer is just a tool to facilitate the evolution of musical ideas. Whereas the traditional orchestral composer might well be an accomplished piano player, at the end of the day they're just using that piano as an exploratory tool to work out parts and how they go together. This is no different to someone using sample libraries and soft synths to compose in the piano roll. If you don't have a musical ear, you're not going to have to come up with anything decent. 
 
The notion that using samples is "cheating" is as outdated as the notion that banging out three chords on a guitar is "not real music" (and when rock and roll took off, the older generation held precisely this view of it). There are kids out there making electronic music without instruments who are being far more musically creative than a lot of "real" musicians, particularly those who have been knocking out the same old chords and riffs their entire lives. I'm not knocking people who are accomplished at an instrument (I'm quite accomplished on guitar - classical, jazz, folk and a lot of other styles), but I've never seen the use of samples and loops as "unmusical" or "uninventive." Perhaps that's because I've had a good crack at it myself. The level of detail in some electronic productions is immense, and there is a lot of extraordinary creativity going on with samples and loops. I always invite people who pooh-pooh it to set a day aside and try and come up with something good in these genres yourself, just by copying and pasting loops. They never do, and I suspect they'd be lost almost immediately. 

James
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