Helpful ReplyLockedHello from BandLab [Updated 21/3/2018]

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sharke
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 17:03:31 (permalink)
abacab
cparmerlee
 
And even if there is no "making music" happening, I hope that the process of selecting loops does provide some educational value.  I don't see where it can cause harm.



At any rate I am certain that it is safe to call it "art".  Painting with sound, if you will... 
 
Has anybody noticed that many of the younger beatmakers refer to themselves as "producers" or DJs" these days?  Many not explicitly self-describing as musicians, which would imply the ability to play an instrument.
 
Is that a recognition of a new role in creating sounds or performances of the new sonic "art"?




The term has just been refashioned to include people who do everything themselves. Sound design, tracking, composition, arrangement, mixing and mastering. Modern tools has enabled people to become quite proficient at all of these things simultaneously. 

James
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cparmerlee
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 17:27:36 (permalink)
sharke
abacab
cparmerlee
 
And even if there is no "making music" happening, I hope that the process of selecting loops does provide some educational value.  I don't see where it can cause harm.



At any rate I am certain that it is safe to call it "art".  Painting with sound, if you will... 
 
Has anybody noticed that many of the younger beatmakers refer to themselves as "producers" or DJs" these days?  Many not explicitly self-describing as musicians, which would imply the ability to play an instrument.
 
Is that a recognition of a new role in creating sounds or performances of the new sonic "art"?




The term has just been refashioned to include people who do everything themselves. Sound design, tracking, composition, arrangement, mixing and mastering. Modern tools has enabled people to become quite proficient at all of these things simultaneously. 


I agree with all of that.  We should not insist on applying our old terminology to what a younger generation is doing today.  I am guessing that much of what we did at a younger age could have been considered noise.  I hope we can all recognize that within that "noisescape", one can find some interesting and artistic things.  What we call the process isn't terribly important.
 
But I think the broader point here, to get back on track, is that SONAR (and Cakewalk) had clearly become a niche that was loved by an earlier generation and had little interest to younger people.  The SONAR technology is great, but it is in a crowded field, making it impossible to survive.  And as time passed, we saw a vicious circle where the remaining users pushed the company deeper and deeper into the niche.  It was a death spiral.
But I can see a completely different picture if this tech is integrated with the other things Bandlab is doing.  I could use that a lot.
 
I am more involved in with education than commercial production.  Today I have a planning meeting for a new video that will introduce students to the sound spectrum, overtones, and timbre.  I'm using RX6 heavily for that one.  I can already see some great angles for drawing students into music theory by having them collaborate on a song composition with the Bandlab-type stuff.  And in the future, if there is integration all the way back to the DAW, that's how I can draw students into the world of commercial sound production.
 
In other words, I don't give a damn about "keeping SONAR alive", so to speak.  But I am very interested in seeing the next generation of capability, which should include the familiar DAW capabilities.

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marled
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 18:12:14 (permalink)
cparmerlee
But I think the broader point here, to get back on track, is that SONAR (and Cakewalk) had clearly become a niche that was loved by an earlier generation and had little interest to younger people. The SONAR technology is great, but it is in a crowded field, making it impossible to survive.  And as time passed, we saw a vicious circle where the remaining users pushed the company deeper and deeper into the niche.  It was a death spiral.

I do not agree at all! In my opinion they should have strengthened the niche. This is the only way to survive!
With your theory a lot of car producers have run into trouble. Just coping the ideas of the competitors and building the same car models with a different make name is really a death spiral! But this is very modern!
 
That's why I am convinced Sonar has to go its own way, not as a copy of S1, Reaper, ... or as something completely different. The trick is that they have to SELL its strengths and assets to a new niche target group. There have to be great marketing ideas to make it popular, to make producers and musicians learn about its brilliancy.

... I was crucified ...
Chaldeanmagi
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Re: Hello from BandLab [Updated 3/3/2018] 2018/03/13 18:21:25 (permalink)
Are we just changing the name to SPLAT?  Since it has to change any way?
Skyline_UK
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 20:37:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby sharke 2018/03/13 21:50:34
I always look forward to your posts James, as I always find them insightful and they so often echo my sentiments.  On the issue of 'loop manipulation is music' I have to diverge; the main point of my post being that I fully understand all the various arguments supporting the proposiiton but they fail to convince me, and I certainly don't buy one of the propositions that BOFs just don't get it!  Best wishes,

John
 
PS: I have in fact experimented and written 'pieces' comprising of only loops, e.g. 'Rosebud':
http://johnsongs.com/page107.html
 
 

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cparmerlee
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 20:59:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/03/13 21:13:47
marled
cparmerlee
But I think the broader point here, to get back on track, is that SONAR (and Cakewalk) had clearly become a niche that was loved by an earlier generation and had little interest to younger people. The SONAR technology is great, but it is in a crowded field, making it impossible to survive.  And as time passed, we saw a vicious circle where the remaining users pushed the company deeper and deeper into the niche.  It was a death spiral.

I do not agree at all! In my opinion they should have strengthened the niche.



That niche was old guys with fading memories of the old studio days.  There is no business there.  That's why it failed -- TWICE (Roland and Gibson.)  During the time that Gibson had it another 5-10 very comparable DAWs came on the market fitting into that same shrinking niche.
 
The only way to make a business here is to find a way to grow the product, and you will not accomplish that selling against entrenched players like PT, Cubase, SO and Reaper, not to mention FL, DP, Logic, Mixbus and on and on.
 
Basically I think Bandlab is a positive thing, but everybody here should understand Bandlab will be appealing to the next generation.  They have to.  That's where the only real business is.  That does not have to be a bad thing, but old-timers should be prepared to open their minds to new ways of doing things that are not just like the "old SONAR".  This should happen gradually, so there is no reason for anybody to get bent out of shape about it.  And the "old SONAR" capabilities will probably mostly remain for a long time.

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michael diemer
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 21:01:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/03/13 21:13:58
Here's what Haydn, who composed over 100 symphonies, had for technology: a primitive piano-like instrument that probably sounded terrible; a quill (that is, feather) to write with, plus ink; and some kind of "paper" we would probably find disgusting (especially if you're a vegan).
 
I wonder what he would do if presented with our dazzling music technology. He might just say "I don't need any of that, it would just slow me down."
I fear that the more "technology" advances, the worse the musical result is.

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dappa1
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 21:09:22 (permalink)
Lifetime updates:
 
Shelf life updates is what it should have been called. 

Sonar X series 
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 https://youtu.be/A0VPi_UZmLo Moon & Stars
 
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marled
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 21:43:30 (permalink)
cparmerlee
marled
cparmerlee
But I think the broader point here, to get back on track, is that SONAR (and Cakewalk) had clearly become a niche that was loved by an earlier generation and had little interest to younger people. The SONAR technology is great, but it is in a crowded field, making it impossible to survive.  And as time passed, we saw a vicious circle where the remaining users pushed the company deeper and deeper into the niche.  It was a death spiral.

I do not agree at all! In my opinion they should have strengthened the niche.



That niche was old guys with fading memories of the old studio days.  There is no business there.  That's why it failed -- TWICE (Roland and Gibson.)  During the time that Gibson had it another 5-10 very comparable DAWs came on the market fitting into that same shrinking niche.
 
The only way to make a business here is to find a way to grow the product, and you will not accomplish that selling against entrenched players like PT, Cubase, SO and Reaper, not to mention FL, DP, Logic, Mixbus and on and on.
 
Basically I think Bandlab is a positive thing, but everybody here should understand Bandlab will be appealing to the next generation.  They have to.  That's where the only real business is.  That does not have to be a bad thing, but old-timers should be prepared to open their minds to new ways of doing things that are not just like the "old SONAR".  This should happen gradually, so there is no reason for anybody to get bent out of shape about it.  And the "old SONAR" capabilities will probably mostly remain for a long time.


I think you don't get it! First of all I wonder that you cut out some of my comment above where I tried to explain what I mean with the first sentence.

What you are saying about Cakewalk is your free opinion (I don't believe this was the cause of the decline). But I am convinced that nowadays there are much more important things that make a product fly or not. And in those areas they made the biggest mistakes whether under Roland or Gibson (e.g. marketing, pricing, continuity).
Noel told us one point about the LifeTime thing, there was the idea to make money with great additional components instead (like the Adaptive Limiter) and someone (can't remember who) added that they even thought of giving Sonar for free. For whatever reason the idea had been dropped (Gibson?). But IMHO this was the best marketing idea, because it could have spread the use of Sonar immensely. There are a lot of examples in the IT world of poor products with a clever idea/marketing that came out on the top. All the more it should be possible to push such a great product.

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piangio
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 23:26:07 (permalink)

Wonderful! Can't wait

abacab
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/13 23:48:36 (permalink)
cparmerlee
 
Basically I think Bandlab is a positive thing, but everybody here should understand Bandlab will be appealing to the next generation.  They have to.  That's where the only real business is.  That does not have to be a bad thing, but old-timers should be prepared to open their minds to new ways of doing things that are not just like the "old SONAR".  This should happen gradually, so there is no reason for anybody to get bent out of shape about it.  And the "old SONAR" capabilities will probably mostly remain for a long time.




Imagine ... what if?
 
Cakewalk had dropped Sonar development years ago and continued focusing on Project5 development instead. P5 was a great synth workstation with VST support and a fun/creative workflow.
 
Where would Cakewalk be today in the competitive landscape?  P5 was a niche product back them, perhaps too early to the game, and ahead of its time...
 
But products like Ableton Live and Propellerheads Reason have withstood the test of time.  I think that Reason may have the closest similarity to P5, but until recently, Reason did not even have VST support.  And if you look at the layout of Bitwig, it has some similarities to P5, that even Ableton cannot match yet...

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ch.huey
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 00:35:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby michael diemer 2018/03/14 01:08:35
sharke
Skyline_UK
Back to your salient comment on how some youngsters think they're making music with loops. Let's just get this out there. They're not making music. We mustn't fall into the trap of thinking we need to defy our knowledge and wisdom and think the opposite of what we know is true for fear of being labelled 'Luddite', 'old', etc. We must feel free NOT to be persuaded that "That's how they're doing it now. It's modern and equally valid as learning an instrument was in your day. And by definition, as it's modern it must be good and therefore it's YOU that doesn't understand its validity".  Utter bollocks. Stringing together snippets ('loops') of music made by musicians on instruments is not making music. End of.  Anyway, I like to think that for every bedroom beats copy and paster there is at least one other youngster learning the joy of connecting with a musical instrument and actually expressing what's in their heart and head by making music with it.



This is a little narrow minded but not an infrequent view expressed in the Sonar community. People who rant about kids "making music with loops" are usually coming from a position of ignorance, in that they don't really know what goes into the kind of music the kids are creating and how they're using loops. The idea that they're just dragging 16 bar loops into the DAW and extending them across the timeline and saying they wrote a song is just not true. At least, for the vast majority of people making modern music which utilizes loops. 
 
In fact there is a LOT of musical creativity going on, arguably more so than someone who's been banging out 3 chord songs on a guitar their whole lives. Loops are usually only part of the story, and even when they're used they're being edited and spliced and rearranged and mangled in all kinds of creative ways in order to create something new. It's no less creative than an artist creating sculptures from junk found in a scrapyard (and some of that stuff is amazing). The idea that there is no musical talent or ability behind it is ridiculous. You have to have a keen musical ear to arrange samples into something new, just as you have to have a keen artistic eye to arrange old engine parts into a sculpture of an animal (or whatever). 
 
You don't have to perform with an instrument to compose music. Clicking notes in a piano roll is no different to writing notation down on paper - the computer is just a tool to facilitate the evolution of musical ideas. Whereas the traditional orchestral composer might well be an accomplished piano player, at the end of the day they're just using that piano as an exploratory tool to work out parts and how they go together. This is no different to someone using sample libraries and soft synths to compose in the piano roll. If you don't have a musical ear, you're not going to have to come up with anything decent. 
 
The notion that using samples is "cheating" is as outdated as the notion that banging out three chords on a guitar is "not real music" (and when rock and roll took off, the older generation held precisely this view of it). There are kids out there making electronic music without instruments who are being far more musically creative than a lot of "real" musicians, particularly those who have been knocking out the same old chords and riffs their entire lives. I'm not knocking people who are accomplished at an instrument (I'm quite accomplished on guitar - classical, jazz, folk and a lot of other styles), but I've never seen the use of samples and loops as "unmusical" or "uninventive." Perhaps that's because I've had a good crack at it myself. The level of detail in some electronic productions is immense, and there is a lot of extraordinary creativity going on with samples and loops. I always invite people who pooh-pooh it to set a day aside and try and come up with something good in these genres yourself, just by copying and pasting loops. They never do, and I suspect they'd be lost almost immediately. 


Oh God what door did I open????? My comment has been... misread.
 
First of all, Skyline_UK, not all old people are farts, and not all farts are old. There are plenty of young ones, who grow to be old ones, and plenty of old people who are simply old and not at all farts, and never were. An old fart IS a Luddite who is convinced their way is the only way.
 
I was just pointing out that I'm not old, and I'm also not a kid, just a particular age where I seem to be caught in a gap, and I am in addition, not a fart, some whiny baby who is refusing any kind of change to how they function from a dogmatic a priori belief. Hence, neither old, nor a fart. There are many young farts who think that tracking  a group live in a room is such an old person thing to do and that their looping way is the only way to create real, new, vital music. They're young farts. They'll grow up to be old farts and moan one day how music has declined.
 
Second of all, my comment about my friend's teenage son... that was not an attempt to put down people creating music with loops or samples. If I were to suggest that were the case, I'd be dismissing Stockhausen, Glenn Gould, much musique concrete, and the Beatles who used tape loops all over Tomorrow Never Knows.
 
My point was, and hopefully this will nip this insane conversation that started off a remark I might have phrased better, is that he wasn't AWARE there was another way of approaching things because the program he used made it difficult to view that way.
 
My hope is that the new NotSonar will be something that lets both parties be happy. It's all a sliding scale of increasing technology and ease of use, ease of access, without people, en masse, getting any more creative. The medium is just the tool. Most people still suck. When literacy increased in Victorian England, there was an exponential growth of writing than a century before, but the ratio of good to bad didn't change. There was just a lot more bad. Music is the same way.
 
I am a huge admirer of Frank Zappa. He released his 6 disc/12 volume 'You Can't Do That On Stage Anymore', showcasing the virtuosity of his decades of live music in the late 80's, when freeze dried drum machines ruled the airwaves. He showed what a brilliant man with a guitar with a good band can do live.
 
Then he went off to his basement and created music entirely from sampled instruments on his Synclavier (stone age Sonar), all played back by the machine but programmed in to create some of the most interesting beautiful music, which is still unique and beautiful beyond description. He showed what a brilliant man with sampled instruments from a ghuzheng to Tuvan throat singers and classical instruments,  and even some burps, can create.
 
Common component - brilliant man. He also grew up on analog (5 track that Paul Buff and Les Paul created!!!!), then moved to digital, but he knew the options and ways to achieve what he heard in his head.
 
My fear is that the new NotSonar may turn into something that doesn't give you all the options, since a lot of kids just don't know how to do it. The increasing emphasis on pleasing the consumer, by dumbing programs down to do what they already want to do, will lead to dumbed down imaginations on otherwise brilliant people because it's really difficult to do it any other way. The brilliant people are out there still. But they're losing tools, not gaining them it looks like. Sonar was one of the stand outs in a tool that worked like a digital mixer/tape machine. Who knows how many people will see it that way and decide to give making music that way a try and realize their creativity works differently that way.
 
As far as samples and loops versus playing real instruments... If I'm playing a funk song, I want a real funk guitar. I don't want it looped. Because looped is repeated exactly and your ear grows dead to it, and it has to lock in with the drums, so I don't want looped sampled drums, since it can grow stale. It's what the music requires, and I enjoy that kind of music very much, and that approach is the best to achieve the end, what I hear in my head. No quantitizing. I tried it - it kills groove, not again for that music. Sonar lets me do it this way easily.
 
I also have a project that I want to create where I want everything quantitized because I'm using sampled drum loops, specifically a disco beat, and entirely sampled instruments including loops, including vocal phrases, embracing the sterile 80's sound. It's an absurd piece with a structure of a ballet. That is the best approach to create the music that I hear in my head. I think Sonar will let me do this easily, but I've never really tried yet.
 
I wasn't lamenting the fact that my friend's teenage son wasn't playing an instrument - I was stating that it wasn't obvious to him that what he was sitting in front of is basically an amped up mixer that he saw in all those old videos of way back when, and he could use it the same way. The interface and format didn't clue him in, and he didn't know the history, so he never had the option of deciding which route he wanted to go. The software encouraged him one way, and he went that way, and the program he used was frustrating for me because it was not geared toward actually being able to play guitar, bass, and the rest of the parts in real time. He seemed to love it. He didn't seem to get that there was any other way to do it, though, writing away from the software and creating his own loops to use. Old recording was not better - it forced you to be, and it also severely limited what you could do which is WHY WE HAVE DIGITAL NOW.
 
Art is defined by the frame, and that's where the talent of a person comes in as the only important factor. I don't care for EDM, but I won't call it trash because I can appreciate the organization. I also appreciate that my 4 track Tascam mentality wouldn't help someone who is doing EDM.
 
I hope the new NotSonar is something that lets you switch between playing instruments in, and doing loop based style production. Not one or the other, but both. I am only lamenting that the software developers seem to pick a side sometimes, and people without my weird generation gap experience of 4 track and digital experience may not know there are alternate ways to express their creativity, which is really the whole point of all this after all, isn't it?
 
I never, ever said or implied her son wasn't making music by not using an instrument. I simply said it never occurred to him that there is a whole different way to make it that he might enjoy. Bandlab seems very youth oriented, and I do not know what their plans include. Hopefully, a versatile platform that gives people the options.
 
To quote Oscar Wilde:
"The artist is the creator of beautiful things.
To reveal art and conceal the artist is art’s aim...
Thought and language are to the artist instruments of an art.
Diversity of opinion about a work of art shows that the work is new, complex, and vital.
When critics disagree the artist is in accord with himself.
We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely.
All art is quite useless."
 
Useless organized sound is music in a nutshell. How it's organized doesn't make it better or worse. Knowing as an artist that you have DIFFERENT WAYS to organize it, I think, is always good, and was my point. It is all just a bunch of sound waves hitting our ear drums at the end of a long journey, and everything is a tool to get there. Tools serve no purpose unless they are used by people as tools.
 
I did not intend to start this discussion to exclude anyone, but hope that new NotSonar is MORE inclusive toward different ways of creating, and hopefully I can end it by saying let's all get off our high horses and not pretend we're doing something useful, vital, or enlightening to humanity in general, but at the end of the day, totally biologically unnecessary and frivolous, totally biologically useless, and totally fun, which is why it becomes vital and useful to humanity in general. Let's not take ourselves too seriously here.  I know Mozart is the greatest composer, and I know why, and sometimes I'd still rather listen to Mississippi Fred McDowell than Mozart, who in general I appreciate more than enjoy, as opposed to Beethoven, who isn't as good as Mozart, but I like a lot more.
 
'I like it' and 'it's good' are not equivocal statements, nor are 'I dislike it' and 'it is bad'. 
 
Do we really want to turn into a bunch of essayists rather than musicians? I ran away to music from writing, despite being a writer, because music can be done real time and my jazz friends never went on about 'what an artist does' while doing nothing but talking about what an artist does. They jammed. It was great. I wrote music, ended up bandleader. It was fun (mostly). We played jazz, doo wop, blues, reggae, disco and it was all great, and silly, and great. We did, not talked, but did.
 
Artists art. Add one letter to that and you become .... well what I pointed out at the beginning of this post. They come young and old, and have closed minds. And they all stink, but the wind blow them away eventually.
 

 
michael diemer
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 01:18:05 (permalink)
Ha! Hilarious, ch.huey. Another great post. And desperately needed. 
 
If your music is as good as your writing, I'm going to be envious.
 
I guess we'll have to call you a youthful fart, you're too young for middle-age, but too old for unqualifiedly-young.
 
In any case, keep it coming, assuming you have nothing better to do. 
 
Then again, maybe I shouldn't encourage you, some people don't like long posts. But it's about the quality. If that's there, length doesn't matter. 
 
By the way, you are correct about Mozart. So many people question how he could be the greatsest composer, when his music is so simple and light. Just listen to his Requiem, that should dispel that myth. And for complexity, check out the last movement of the Jupiter symphony, where he handles 5 themes simultaneously. I don't believe anyone else has done that, before or since.

michael diemer
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abacab
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 01:22:07 (permalink)
ch.huey
*.*


+100
 


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Falk
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 01:23:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby marled 2018/03/14 09:35:18
cparmerlee
marled
cparmerlee
But I think the broader point here, to get back on track, is that SONAR (and Cakewalk) had clearly become a niche that was loved by an earlier generation and had little interest to younger people. The SONAR technology is great, but it is in a crowded field, making it impossible to survive.  And as time passed, we saw a vicious circle where the remaining users pushed the company deeper and deeper into the niche.  It was a death spiral.

I do not agree at all! In my opinion they should have strengthened the niche.



That niche was old guys with fading memories of the old studio days.  There is no business there.  That's why it failed -- TWICE (Roland and Gibson.)  During the time that Gibson had it another 5-10 very comparable DAWs came on the market fitting into that same shrinking niche.
 
The only way to make a business here is to find a way to grow the product, and you will not accomplish that selling against entrenched players like PT, Cubase, SO and Reaper, not to mention FL, DP, Logic, Mixbus and on and on.
 
Basically I think Bandlab is a positive thing, but everybody here should understand Bandlab will be appealing to the next generation.  They have to.  That's where the only real business is.  That does not have to be a bad thing, but old-timers should be prepared to open their minds to new ways of doing things that are not just like the "old SONAR".  This should happen gradually, so there is no reason for anybody to get bent out of shape about it.  And the "old SONAR" capabilities will probably mostly remain for a long time.




As I posted a couple pages ago, that niche literally is the reason that a lot of people used SONAR. There exists an entire classification of users whose job scope not only doesn't care for social integration, cloud sync, etc - their work literally runs counter to that - people composing for media, heck, people using SONAR to mix projects, sequence or comp/edit for clients, etc. - any time you're working at the behest of someone else rather than your own music, you're pretty much not going to be sharing your work with your social circle. (Unless your client also happens to be part of your social circle but I digress)
 
I would argue that SONAR's niche within that niche, and why so many people had trouble letting go, is that regardless of the bugs and issues and crashes and whatnot, it did some things incredibly well, in a way that none of the competition could replicate. (Integrated ARA is this one of these bullet points, for me, really) and the acquisition would do well on capitalizing on what drew people to the product and what made it hard for them to let go FIRST, making that as reliable as can be, and THEN seeing what else could be added, rather than trading out one crowded market (PT, Cubase, SO, Reaper, FL, DP, Logic, Mixbus, etc) for another and potentially losing all the product's strengths and branding in the meantime.
cparmerlee
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 01:35:05 (permalink)
marled
I wonder that you cut out some of my comment above where I tried to explain what I mean with the first sentence.



I was just trying to avoid the 10-page posts when people quote 5 messages in their entirety.  I wasn't trying to hide anything.

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cparmerlee
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 01:53:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby michael diemer 2018/03/14 03:43:18
abacab
Where would Cakewalk be today in the competitive landscape?  P5 was a niche product back them, perhaps too early to the game, and ahead of its time...
 
But products like Ableton Live and Propellerheads Reason have withstood the test of time.  I think that Reason may have the closest similarity to P5, but until recently, Reason did not even have VST support.  And if you look at the layout of Bitwig, it has some similarities to P5, that even Ableton cannot match yet...



Interesting.  I don't know anything about Project5, so I can't really comment.  But just as a general proposition, if you are in a commodity market you had better be #1 or a very strong #2.  Clearly the general purpose DAW market has become a commodity.  If you can't own those top slots, then the only real answer is to specialize or otherwise create a special niche.  Live is the perfect example of specialization.  Reaper created a "niche" as a lot-cost option.
 
I don't know anything about the "inside baseball" of Cakewalk.  But we do know there have been several high profile projects started and killed.  The Mac port wasn't really to create a value niche, but it surely had the potential to quickly reach a wider base.  I don't think it would have saved the company because it didn't deliver anything that the market didn't already have, but it could have helped with revenues for awhile.  The other projects were all attempts to create a less-crowded niche.  This certainly includes Momentum, and based on your description, Project5 was a similar motive.  And we had the Prochannel, and the various VSTs (the LP stuff and the Adaptive Limiter.)
 
What I'm getting at is that it appears there were people within Cakewalk who saw the need to do more than just make a great general purpose DAW.  One wonders why those efforts didn't really play out.  It seems like there may have competing strategies.  We'll probably never know, and it isn't our business anyway.  But it is interesting.
 
As you said, "Imagine ... what if?"

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ch.huey
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 02:18:16 (permalink)
michael diemer
Ha! Hilarious, ch.huey. Another great post. And desperately needed. 
 
If your music is as good as your writing, I'm going to be envious.
 
I guess we'll have to call you a youthful fart, you're too young for middle-age, but too old for unqualifiedly-young.
 
In any case, keep it coming, assuming you have nothing better to do. 
 
Then again, maybe I shouldn't encourage you, some people don't like long posts. But it's about the quality. If that's there, length doesn't matter. 
 
By the way, you are correct about Mozart. So many people question how he could be the greatsest composer, when his music is so simple and light. Just listen to his Requiem, that should dispel that myth. And for complexity, check out the last movement of the Jupiter symphony, where he handles 5 themes simultaneously. I don't believe anyone else has done that, before or since.


Thank you but I'm not a lover of long posts myself, I mostly find them a pain in the rear. I agree with you on Mozart - I am learning to appreciate him the more I understand how he adds so many voices on stage at the same time in The Marriage of Figaro. Now that I understand it, I like it, but my gut still goes to Beethoven. Tastes are tastes still.


What I was trying to do was add in my verbose way, to what this thread started out as - a dialogue between our new overlords, and the users, of which I am one. I noticed a lot of speculation and arguing, but it drowns out real comments, like Falk made -
 
Falk
cparmerlee
marled
cparmerlee
But I think the broader point here, to get back on track, is that SONAR (and Cakewalk) had clearly become a niche that was loved by an earlier generation and had little interest to younger people. The SONAR technology is great, but it is in a crowded field, making it impossible to survive.  And as time passed, we saw a vicious circle where the remaining users pushed the company deeper and deeper into the niche.  It was a death spiral.

I do not agree at all! In my opinion they should have strengthened the niche.



That niche was old guys with fading memories of the old studio days.  There is no business there.  That's why it failed -- TWICE (Roland and Gibson.)  During the time that Gibson had it another 5-10 very comparable DAWs came on the market fitting into that same shrinking niche.
[shortened]
Basically I think Bandlab is a positive thing, but everybody here should understand Bandlab will be appealing to the next generation.  They have to.  That's where the only real business is.  That does not have to be a bad thing, but old-timers should be prepared to open their minds to new ways of doing things that are not just like the "old SONAR".  This should happen gradually, so there is no reason for anybody to get bent out of shape about it.  And the "old SONAR" capabilities will probably mostly remain for a long time.




As I posted a couple pages ago, that niche literally is the reason that a lot of people used SONAR. There exists an entire classification of users whose job scope not only doesn't care for social integration, cloud sync, etc - their work literally runs counter to that - people composing for media, heck, people using SONAR to mix projects, sequence or comp/edit for clients, etc. - any time you're working at the behest of someone else rather than your own music, you're pretty much not going to be sharing your work with your social circle. (Unless your client also happens to be part of your social circle but I digress)
 
I would argue that SONAR's niche within that niche, and why so many people had trouble letting go, is that regardless of the bugs and issues and crashes and whatnot, it did some things incredibly well, in a way that none of the competition could replicate. (Integrated ARA is this one of these bullet points, for me, really) and the acquisition would do well on capitalizing on what drew people to the product and what made it hard for them to let go FIRST, making that as reliable as can be, and THEN seeing what else could be added, rather than trading out one crowded market (PT, Cubase, SO, Reaper, FL, DP, Logic, Mixbus, etc) for another and potentially losing all the product's strengths and branding in the meantime.




There are a variety of positions and opinions, and it seems like the company that now owns the IP is willing to listen, so why don't we use this opportunity not to argue what was or was not, but to make suggestions on what might be?
 
Unless I'm severely mistaken here, Sonar, this program, and every other major DAW, is basically the same thing. It's a fancy mixer. You can put any UI you want on it, add any features you want (or not add them), and gear it toward a specific audience, make it complex, which Sonar could be, or simple, like many drag and drop programs. But they all work off the same MIDI standards, with FPS, and they all stream audio back. Maybe different species, but same bird, and they all lay eggs and have feathers at the end of the day. I tried explaining this to someone who 'hated MIDI' but wanted to 'use samples on his Sibelius scores' and ... sigh... he doesn't hate MIDI, he just doesn't know how the software really works. A lot of people, I find, don't. But it all mostly works the same way whether or not people know it - again unless I am massively wrong on this, same thing under the hood but tweaked a little here and there. Still runs on gas. 
 
Falk has a very specific need for the way it's presented, and including a UI that lets him share with his friends is not something he wants or needs. If I had friends, I might decide if I wanted it, but as of now it's useless to my little lonely self. That is a very valid point.
 
Cmparlee is also correct, that many people (something I touched on) look at Sonar as a digital version of a mixer and tape machine. The market for that isn't necessarily that big. But it's not that different under the hood from what a lot of people use, it's just presented different. And people use different aspects of Sonar's massive, powerful, bulging sexy engine.
 
I look at Sonar Platinum, and I remember Sonar 6, and they look very different. But they aren't really, other than workflow and screensets. The Synclavier wasn't even all that different from what Sonar is... just an early version on ancient technology.
 
I believe it is logical to assume that as there were different versions of Sonar aimed at different users, Platinum, Artist, etc, Bandlab will most likely do something similar. Not everyone needs the full range of tools for audio production, but there will be a flagship line that probably has all the features included in addition to the slimmed down ones.
 
Perhaps a better route than arguing over less than nothing, is to express clearly that one group needs these features and not these, while another group needs these features and not these, and why that is, so that there is a NewNotSonar that has a UI more like Ableton, and one that has a UI more like Sonar 6 for the 'old people' (lots of women in audio). But the same audio/midi engine underneath. This will let the new NotSonar be MORE versatile. You can please most of the people most of the time, if not all, if you know what they want. Cars work on the same principle. So do puppies. Why not a DAW with that same mentality. That has VARISPEED RECORDING.
 
Given the strength and versatility of Sonar's engine AS IT IS, aside from a few things I wish it had (varispeed, VARISPEED), it seems like it's capable of doing most things that a lot of DAWS do, but doesn't have the UI to ease the workflow. The fact that I can switch between advanced midi editing in piano roll, console view, track view, matrix view and so on already makes me think this isn't that hard...
 
Suggesting desired features not already there (VARISPEED RECORDING!!!!), and the potential ways each individual user uses it so that the new company has an idea on how we all actually use it and function with it, so they can then develop it in a variety of ways for the people who like dragging and dropping premade loops, or for the people who prefer to play instruments in real time, or the people who do other kinds of production I don't do and can't rattle off the top of my head, will help them use the very very valuable and wonderful IP they acquired, and enhance different aspects so the MIDI heavy people can switch to a custom designed MIDI UI, the audio to their audio UI, etc.
 
Sonar is gone. What Cakewalk should or should not have done is beside the point. What is not beside the point is that we are fortunate enough to have a company willing to listen and this thread devolves into arguments over whether a style of music is valid or not, instead of feedback on:
 
"Hi, I'm xxx. Here is how I used it. Here is what I hope for. Here is what I don't use. "
 
This is a golden opportunity. Let's not let it pass us up here since this could be a very good thing for everyone, but I doubt they want to wade through pages of people arguing over the meaning of 'subscription' to find the people who are expressing what they liked, didn't like, and hope for in future versions which are not in the past but in the future we all eagerly await.
 
Bandlab seems like they are run by a smart guy. Why don't we throw smart ideas at a smart guy running a company full of smart people who just acquired really smartly made software? If they truly are smart, they will listen, and we may see the equivalent of what is currently in Sonar the 'screenset' function so you can toggle between different features of the powerful engine.
 
It's not that Sonar can't do many things other programs can't, aside from some of the social media stuff I think, it's that it's not set up to do so efficiently. Ask and ye shall receive. If there is a social media module I can just not install, hooray for me! But let's put our requests out there so they can be heard in the first place, instead of arguing over what Sonar didn't do but could have.
 
Again, unless I'm mistaken, all a DAW really is, is a thing that plays back recordings. It is truly horrible for printing music. I forgot to mention that. Drawing in septulets is a PAIN, and the staff notation never displays correctly and it looks like gibberish. I have to drag from Musescore or another program into Cakewalk for some of this stuff. That's a good request right there - I am a user who likes seeing sheet music, so perhaps an improvement there.
 
Loop users don't care about that. Those who use loops, what do you care about that you think could be improved?
People who do soundtracks?
People who design for video games or the billion other things I can't think of because I don't do them and it never occurred to me to think of?
 
Your suggestions might be my future blessing, since the company sounds like it really wants to hear what we think while they're making the new program.
 
 
 

 
michael diemer
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 03:46:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ch.huey 2018/03/14 18:39:43
Again, great post Youthful Sir. This is the best suggestion I have heard yet in all this ranting, to let Bandlab know what we do/don't use, need, or want. Let's do it!

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iRelevant
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 10:39:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ch.huey 2018/03/14 15:38:47
Bravo Mr. ch.huey, very enjoyable reading. Applause :) 
 
My main interest in the DAW is it's MIDI features. I hope that the Preferences section get's a streamlining when it comes to the MIDI part. It would be nice if it was easier to select devices formerly associated with Cakewalk ... you would expect it to be just a matter of ticking off the right boxes to select say the VS-100 or the A-Pro Keyboard Series. It's a bit weird how it's quicker to get the A-Pro keyboard to work in Fruity Loops than in Sonar. 
It would also be nice to have easy integration of contemporary control surfaces and keyboards.
edpdx1
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 11:36:09 (permalink)
Hello BandLab,
 
Having read about Mr. Meng and his passion for music, I can see a very bright future ahead for our beloved DAW.
 
Thanks,
Ed
subtlearts
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 13:26:37 (permalink)
ch.huey
... Oh God what door did I open????? My comment has been... misread....

 
I like most of this long and entertaining post very much, but I'm afraid I have to take issue with a couple of things... lightheartedly, of course, I hope that comes across, I can get worked up sometimes... 
 

I know Mozart is the greatest composer, and I know why, and sometimes I'd still rather listen to Mississippi Fred McDowell than Mozart, who in general I appreciate more than enjoy, as opposed to Beethoven, who isn't as good as Mozart, but I like a lot more. 

 
Wow. You "know" - the implication is objectively - that Mozart is "the greatest" composer, but you like Beethoven better even though he "isn't as good". This is simply nonsense. There is nothing objectively better about Mozart than Beethoven. Both occupy a kind of stratosphere of composition, along with a handful of others, depending on who is compiling the list... mine includes Bach (and I frankly think everyone's should), along with Scarlatti, Chopin,  and a handful of others. Yours might be different than mine but to say that one of these giants is objectively 'the best' is flat-out absurd. Let's think about Mozart for a moment: everybody knows he was an inconceivably gifted child prodigy, writing his first pieces at 3 years old and so on. However, there's *far* more mediocre Mozart than Beethoven (there's basically no mediocre Bach, it's pretty much all luminous and perfect, even the Cantatas which he was churning out at one a week alongside everything else, probably thinking they would only ever be played once, in Mass the next Sunday). Most musicologists will tell you (my prof in university did, in any case) that for all his prodigious talent and prolific output, he didn't really write anything particularly novel or noteworthy until the 25th symphony... which he wrote when he was 18. Yes, we can take a moment to process that (how long did it take you to get to 25? I'm a bit slower than that myself), but the fact remains: there are 24 symphonies - and tons of other work as well, obviously - worth of not particularly groundbreaking, fairly conventional music before Mozart becomes really interesting. Yes, he proceeded from there to be consistently, meteorically brilliant, but the fact remains that the early work brings the average down. Beethoven wrote 9 symphonies (and, obviously, lots of other stuff besides), and not only is every one of them extraordinary and profound, but they are revolutionary as well; he was changing the very idea of composition as he went along.
 
So who's 'better'? Through one lens, Mozart was the most brilliantly gifted composer of all time, but through another, he was a fairly conventional high Classical composer who did it extraordinarily well but struggled to find success and died tragically young. Beethoven wrote far less music, but is simultaneously the last great Classical composer and the first great Romantic one, who literally transformed our notion of what an artist should do, even after he'd gone almost completely deaf. Not even Bach did that. Me? I like them all and literally cannot imagine the world without their music (I feel the same way about The Beatles and Jimi Hendrix, for the record) and it seems emininently silly to proclaim that one is 'better' than another. 
 
 
... hopefully I can end it by saying let's all get off our high horses and not pretend we're doing something useful, vital, or enlightening to humanity in general, but at the end of the day, totally biologically unnecessary and frivolous, totally biologically useless, and totally fun, which is why it becomes vital and useful to humanity in general. 



This is a strange and (at the risk of stating the obvious) self-contradictory statement. I don't accept at all that music and art are useless, Wilde's wonderfully clever quote notwithstanding. First of all, I think that music is among the highest forms of communication, and communication is absolutely biologically necessary - most social animals (and we're the most social animal of all, as well as the most antisocial) will simply die if they are removed from the pack, or the colony, or whatever.
 
Moreover, I don't remotely accept that music and art are frivolous, or that 'fun' is the only reason they are important at all. Viewed as a species in terms of our impact on the planet and the ecosystem we live in, we are literally the worst kind of cancer, destroying and consuming our host at an ever-increasing rate. The world at large would be far better off if we had never evolved. Or would it? Art and music and culture, to me, constitute most of what makes humanity worthwhile. We've made much of the world a whole lot uglier, and we've been mostly (with notable exceptions) horribly cruel to each other and to virtually all of the other creatures we share this pale blue dot with... but we've created so much astonishing beauty along the way that I can forgive us. The fact that we sent so much music (including works by Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Stravinsky, Louis Armstrong and Chuck Berry) into space on Voyager 1 makes perfect sense to me. The meaning is clear: here is the best of us, we hope it reaches someone out there someday...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record
 
Yes, I like to have fun making music, in fact it's how I make my living, but if you view that as the highest possible calling or the only valid purpose of it... I'm afraid I find that a rather narrow and limited outlook. 
post edited by subtlearts - 2018/03/14 15:38:10

tobias tinker 
music is easy: just start with complete silence, and take away the parts you don't like!
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Team Green
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 18:26:28 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ch.huey 2018/03/14 18:40:42
I'm in my 50s and use Sonar for both looping and live recording from 2 inputs to 8 simultaneously. The flexibility of the cakewalk daw is what appealed to me decades ago and still appeals to me today. Having the ability to work in live environments or looped or a combination of both are it's strong points and even-though  it can seem very complex, the workflow allows you to pull off some incredible things very quickly. The ability to work on projects not reliant on the net is really cool and I don't believe I'll be storing my works in the cloud anytime soon but for those who like that option cool. I say keep the current options make them better and add some other options if you feel there are not enough already. I've owned and used many other daws but I always return to cakewalk because they stayed practical and current at the same time. I think the bandlab media site is a cool Idea and I have an account there but will I use it? Probably as much as I use face-book and for the same reason to communicate.

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jackson white
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 18:27:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ch.huey 2018/03/14 18:42:09
ch.huey
You can put any UI you want on it, add any features you want (or not add them), and gear it toward a specific audience, make it complex, which Sonar could be, or simple, like many drag and drop programs.
...
You can please most of the people most of the time, if not all, if you know what they want.
...
It's not that Sonar can't do many things other programs can't, ... it's that it's not set up to do so efficiently. 

 
IMHO, "pleasing most of the people most of the time" is more of a workflow issue than a 'generational' issue. All music starts with generating a 'sound event' by dragging and dropping a loop, recording a performance of a 'real' instrument or step-editing a series of MIDI notes routed to a VST. These events are then edited/mixed to an artistic end
 
The fact that someone is making music in the first place, regardless of the means, is evidence of creative drive. Nothing kills that quicker than being frustrated when trying to 'execute a creative move'. 
 
It's generally not a matter of capability. Most DAWs are incredibly feature rich and deep. However, a complete range of complex editing/mixing features is likely to be at odds with the desire for instant gratification. This is where presentation/implementation matter and a factor of the users background. Old school might be down with well documented (and marketed) methods and newer producers will expect complete freedom to 'color outside the lines'.
 
The market currently supports various DAWs which appear to target specific "styles" of music/edit preferences but the edit/mix features are fundamentally the same. As previously stated, it is more a difference in implementation than function.  
 
With the exception of full support for something like drag & drop, this appears to be the design goal for Lenses. CW might have gotten more mileage out of this with a video done by artists with cred in specific styles using lenses developed and tagged for a specific workflow. Imagine a lens preset designed by BT, EVH, Taylor Swift or Hans Zimmer. 
 
IME, the user experience is still platform dependent. Had two contrasting scenarios this week. One was setting up a guitar player to do some overdubs on his WIN laptop using PT. He's still working out issues with latency, dropouts, drivers, etc. Mostly likely some configuration issue as most here will surely recognize, but just saying. 
 
The other was to add a 2 channel USB interface to an existing 2 channel USB setup for recording 4 simultaneous channels in Ableton. Four different manufacturers and it was setup and running perfectly in less than an hour. He's on a Mac. And he's a drummer. :-)
 
Perhaps Bandlab will review the potential for a cross platform version of the program. And while SONAR has done a nice job with features like multi-core balancing, upsampling, keeping current with OS upgrades, etc., my sense is there is room for improvement in the fundamental engine, based on my experience with dropouts/glitches when getting heavy with editing takes, Melodyne, automation and ripple editing.
 
I expect a difference in marketing strategies as well.  

--------------------
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 18:35:41 (permalink)
Thank you for that great introduction Meng. Very happy that the #1 DAW is still alive and well... Can't wait to see what you have in store for us die hard cakewalk sonar fans. 
ch.huey
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 19:23:33 (permalink)
subtlearts
ch.huey
... Oh God what door did I open????? My comment has been... misread....

 
I like most of this long and entertaining post very much, but I'm afraid I have to take issue with a couple of things... lightheartedly, of course, I hope that comes across, I can get worked up sometimes... 
 

I know Mozart is the greatest composer, and I know why, and sometimes I'd still rather listen to Mississippi Fred McDowell than Mozart, who in general I appreciate more than enjoy, as opposed to Beethoven, who isn't as good as Mozart, but I like a lot more. 

 
Wow. You "know" - the implication is objectively - that Mozart is "the greatest" composer, but you like Beethoven better even though he "isn't as good". This is simply nonsense.
 
(edited out)
 
 
... hopefully I can end it by saying let's all get off our high horses and not pretend we're doing something useful, vital, or enlightening to humanity in general, but at the end of the day, totally biologically unnecessary and frivolous, totally biologically useless, and totally fun, which is why it becomes vital and useful to humanity in general. 



This is a strange and (at the risk of stating the obvious) self-contradictory statement. I don't accept at all that music and art are useless, Wilde's wonderfully clever quote notwithstanding. First of all, I think that music is among the highest forms of communication, and communication is absolutely biologically necessary -
 
(edited out)


Subtlearts, I edited your quote just to keep this post short and my reply even shorter.
 
Regarding Mozart, I do know he was a better composer. What you don't know is what the recursive logical statement I was basing that on was, since it was never explicitly stated. Any declarative statement by nature of being declarative implies a belief system underneath it, including criteria and values. In short, you're jumping in with a long argument without actually knowing what I was referring to when I said 'better'. You could have asked me what I meant... Instead of having a long brawl over nothing, which I don't think you want, I'll just state what was elided in the original statement which I did not anticipate anyone doing anything more than glance at:
 
Among the generation of classical composers that predates the cult of the composer (post Beethoven), which means the classical era that included Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Salieri, and countless others, working within specific forms (ie, the sonata form), and working in certain styles such as opera, symphony, string quartet, concertos etc, which was a historical time when there expectations of working within a fixed form (putting Beethoven at the very tail end of this, borderline Romantic), Mozart is the composer who created the greatest variety of masterworks in the greatest variety of genres. In other words, in a room full of carpenters with the same toolset, he was the one who was best with his tools.
 
That's it. That's a very, very, very limited statement, was not touching on what you meant, and you go into things that stretch far beyond what I intended, and are effectively putting words into my mouth by assuming I judge it the same way you do. You're going from an average of the works, which is a bit unfair to Mozart since he started so young and after his death there was a conscious effort by someone to preserve works that may have been lost and changed your average and thus opinon, which is why I am only considering the masterworks. We're not even talking about the same thing. And it's going beyond what this thread was intended for. Let's not read too much into one off comments.
 
PM me if you disagree with my clarification and would like to discuss it at more length, as it would be an interesting discussion and I can respect your opinion, but it is not the time nor the place here to dive into it, especially since it will likely turn heated in a public forum, unnecessarily so. 
 
My statement was strange and self contradictory to prove the point I was trying to make. We eat, sleep, screw, defecate, sleep, wake up and do it all over again, hopefully not mixing those in the wrong combination. Music has no use in that sense. That does not mean it isn't used, but that it is effectively useless by its very nature for a mere physical existence, but appeals to something beyond what makes us beasts, and that is why it is so beautiful and useful. We choose to make it useful, it is not chosen for us. If you think art and culture are what make humanity worthwhile, I cannot share your point of view. Humanity is, it has no need to be worthwhile, or made worthwhile. That seems to me a dim view of humanity. It already is, and worthwhileness is an idea that we created. You seem to be putting the cart before the horse here, and this is leading to another rabbit hole of examining statements without knowing the full extent of recursive beliefs that hold them up. 
 
Again, I seem to have created a problem I hoped to stop, because my point was that we don't need music to survive on a biological level, it's useless, so why are we arguing about it? Throw you on a desert island and you will not die from lack of music, but fresh water, food, etc, and you will, so why are we arguing over the merits of what is or is not real music in this thread? Or my brief statement about Mozart, which was just that, an off the cuff comment I expected most people would gloss over, not take issue with.
 
Again, to reiterate, we have the ear of a company producing a product that we want to use, so why don't we talk about that? What we want from the program, how we use it, and why we want what we want?
 
I'm not against these discussions in general, but it's jamming up the thread. Let's cut down on them, please. We should be discussing things like this:
 
I want my tuplets to go past triplets in the staff view of MIDI events!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want Varispeed recording so I can do it like the old days on tape!!!!! Give me a simpler channel strip view that resembles a Trident (or Neve, or SSL) console while still using the wonderful built in Sonar EQ in the channel strip, so I can assign a low, mid, mid freq. and high to my outboard USB gear with knobs and REALLY feel like I'm using a mixer and don't need to look at the screen at all!

 
Mystic38
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 19:45:34 (permalink)
cparmerlee
 
But I think the broader point here, to get back on track, is that SONAR (and Cakewalk) had clearly become a niche that was loved by an earlier generation and had little interest to younger people.  The SONAR technology is great, but it is in a crowded field, making it impossible to survive.  And as time passed, we saw a vicious circle where the remaining users pushed the company deeper and deeper into the niche.  It was a death spiral.
But I can see a completely different picture if this tech is integrated with the other things Bandlab is doing.  I could use that a lot. 
In other words, I don't give a damn about "keeping SONAR alive", so to speak.  But I am very interested in seeing the next generation of capability, which should include the familiar DAW capabilities.



what a load of hyperbolic tripe.... my apologies, but there is no other way to put it. 
 
The conversion from 8.5 to x1 was a 3 year hole.. but with Platinum, Sonar is the equal of anything out there. Education, promotion, and marketing are largely at fault, not the current core product... 
 
Would i recommend changes to combat Live?.. sure.. Matrix view has had some work but needs more, but the biggest hurdle is the lack of connectivity to controllers with feedback. a change to python vs cal, and templates/drivers for launchpad pro etc are essential for even a limited chance of success. on the linear recording side, Live is a joke.... 
 
 

HPE-580T with i7-950, 8G, 1.5T, ATI6850, Win7/64, Motu 828 III Hybrid, Motu Midi Express, Sonar Platinum, Komplete 9, Ableton Live 9 & Push 2, Melodyne Editor and other stuff, KRK VXT8 Monitors
Virus Ti2 Polar, Fantom G6, Yamaha S70XS, Novation Nova, Novation Nova II, Korg MS2000, Waldorf Micro Q, NI Maschine Studio, TC-VoiceLive Rack, 2012 Gibson Les Paul Standard, 2001 Gibson Les Paul DC, 1999 Fender Am Hardtail Strat, Fender Blues Jr, Orange TH30/PPC212, Tak EF360GF, one mic, no talent.
hydemusic
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 19:49:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ch.huey 2018/03/14 20:23:13
When Gibson closed the door, I wasn't that surprised knowing their history. I did go for the lifetime update. That said, I even asked myself how long can this last? Free updates forever? As we know nothing lasts forever. I already was a Reason user for some time and when Presonus had their very generous "SONAR users upgrade" offer for Studio One Pro 3.5, I took advantage of it. I like Reason, I like SOP 3.5, I like Sonar all for different reasons and won't say one is better but different. I'm not arguing the point. I'm glad to see Sonar has a new owner. I also realize the the free lifetime update will most likely be no more. If they come with a "reasonable" upgrade price I would be amiable to it. But if they do what Magix did with Sony Vegas Pro, then no cigar for me. I'll stick with the latest version of SPLAT. I think this will be true for other owners too if Bandlab bleeds users for the update or owners will just do the "every third" version update both which will ultimately hurt the new company. $79 upgrade to me is a reasonable price for lifetime owners and $99 for non lifetime owners.
post edited by hydemusic - 2018/03/14 21:29:38

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cparmerlee
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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 21:09:52 (permalink)
Mystic38
what a load of hyperbolic tripe.... my apologies, but there is no other way to put it. 

Let me remind you that Cakewalk failed TWICE, under Roland and then under Gibson.  I was simply explaining the realities of a commodity market.  If a third company followed the course you seem to prefer, it would fail a third time.  It seems likely to me that Bandlab has a different plan in mind. 
 

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Re: Hello from BandLab 2018/03/14 23:35:18 (permalink)
iRelevant
Bravo Mr. ch.huey, very enjoyable reading. Applause :) 
 
My main interest in the DAW is it's MIDI features. I hope that the Preferences section get's a streamlining when it comes to the MIDI part. It would be nice if it was easier to select devices formerly associated with Cakewalk ... you would expect it to be just a matter of ticking off the right boxes to select say the VS-100 or the A-Pro Keyboard Series. It's a bit weird how it's quicker to get the A-Pro keyboard to work in Fruity Loops than in Sonar. 
It would also be nice to have easy integration of contemporary control surfaces and keyboards.





What problems have you had with your A-Pro in Sonar? I had no problems or confusion setting mine up, it was pretty much plug 'n' play!

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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