TabSel
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:13:49
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YOU thanked AFTERWARDS ;)
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dcumpian
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:14:54
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TabSel
dcumpian
scottfa
...
2. Is support ONLY for up to date subscribers? If I call with an out of date subscription is the first thing I hear is "Sorry, can't talk to you"? Is there anything in place to fix showstopping bugs in out of subscription products?
According to an earlier post be a Cakewalk staffer, the answer is they would never do that to any customer. It is, however, possible that the "fix" for your issue requires updating to a newer version, if the issue resulted from an actual bug...
Exactly THIS is what will Happen: you will HAVE to buy the bug fixes by by a full 12 months continues payment in order to "keep" it fixed, so you will HAVE to buy bug fix patches for at least 199, whereas up to now, you get patches for free, no matter how long you already own the license.
To me, it is bad practice (wether illegal remains to be seen), to refuse repairs for defects without further charge of products you own, and I own the license to use the product even when my subscription ended long before the repair gets available.
Well, I already decided to not subscribe, instead wait and see how it works out for all you customers. It's a pity, I would have liked to show my support now and pay now, but I don't know WHAT I would buy NOW, so I won't buy. It's that simple. And it's a pity, because it might have a negative side effect on the company as a whole, and I as a customer could be suffering from that in the long run, too...
However, I wish it works out well for everyone, I'd be a paying customer again.
Dude, seriously, after the patches for any version that came before were out, there were no more updates. I don't know what you are talking about. There were no bug fixes for X1 after X2 came out. There won't be anymore patches for X3 either. This isn't any different. Regards, Dan
Mixing is all about control. My music: http://dancumpian.bandcamp.com/ or https://soundcloud.com/dcumpian Studiocat Advanced Studio DAW (Intel i5 3550 @ 3.7GHz, Z77 motherboard, 16GB Ram, lots of HDDs), Sonar Plat, Mackie 1604, PreSonus Audiobox 44VSL, ESI 4x4 Midi Interface, Ibanez Bass, Custom Fender Mexi-Strat, NI S88, Roland JV-2080 & MDB-1, Komplete, Omnisphere, Lots o' plugins.
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Larry Jones
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:19:58
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mudgel
Larry Jones
UPDATE: I was feeling pretty OK about the new marketing and sales model. I was thinking I'd buy a one-year membership, then decide if I wanted to reenlist. Maybe I would, or maybe I wouldn't have enough money, or maybe I'd think it wasn't worth it yet. I'd wait until something appeared that I needed, and then I'd buy another year, which would bring me up to date on everything I'd missed while not a member. You'd think reading 250 posts would have covered everything, but after I wrote my post (above), I read that if your membership lapses, you won't be entitled to all that you missed when you were not a member. You'll get updated on "core functionality," but not "extras."
If this is true, it's not as good as the current way of buying Sonar. Whenever you buy it, you get everything, and sometimes you get a little extra if you're buying near the end of a life cycle. If I have to maintain a membership to be sure I always get everything, that's a subscription, no matter how you spin it or what you call it, and I don't care for it.
If you had X1 then skipped X2 a and bought back in at X3 then you'd have the same core program and all the extras that come with X3!butmif there was something extra add on that came with X2 you wouldn't get that because you had skipped that whole version.
If you go to the monthly plan and then opt out and back in then you'll miss the add on content release while you were out. You'll still get the functional core program. Why should you get the same for opting out as someone who pays yearly or keeps up a monthly membership
If I decline to buy a certain release under the current (old) system, it's because I know what the "extras" are and I either don't want them or don't think they're worth the upgrade. Under the new system, I let my membership lapse and WHOOPS! here comes an "extra" that I didn't know about that I would have bought if I had, but now I don't get it, even if I later reinstate my membership. This smells to me like a way to keep me paying, you know, just in case. These so-called extras are kind of vague. At this point who knows what they will be or how valuable? If they turn out to be videos or a package of presets to a synth I don't use, none of this will matter. I just don't know, and I'd rather not have to keep paying to find out.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:21:19
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Kylotan
Anderton
MIDI editing changes: Yes, this can be done with Length, but i'm in favor of anything that makes gestures between audio and MIDI clips as similar as possible. It's so much faster than figuring out what percentage you want something to be, entering it, finding out it wasn't right, etc.
I only know of 2 situations where this is useful. If I have a MIDI loop, it's already created to a beat, so it'll stretch to whatever tempo is in place. The only exceptions I see are where you get drum loops that you want to be half or double time (so you use length x 200% or 50%) or where some lazy library maker has given you 12/8 loops in 4/4 (I'm looking at you, Toontrack), so you do the scale up 300% then scale down 25% trick. And you only need to do this once per clip. Having this on the mouse will be good, but not a revolutionary workflow improvement. At this stage of DAW evolution, the features are more narrowly targeted. I find most of them don't really apply to what I do, but the MIDI changes fall right into my wheelhouse. I often work with MIDI generated in other programs, such as Band In A Box and Finale Human Playback. Most of the time, I can leave the MIDI alone, as I am going for realistic rendering of arrangements, not a commercial quality recording. But there are inevitably a few measures where the input just doesn't have the effect I want to present to the client. These MIDI editing improvements will really increase my productivity in those cases.
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Brando
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:26:41
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Larry Jones
mudgel
Larry Jones
UPDATE: I was feeling pretty OK about the new marketing and sales model. I was thinking I'd buy a one-year membership, then decide if I wanted to reenlist. Maybe I would, or maybe I wouldn't have enough money, or maybe I'd think it wasn't worth it yet. I'd wait until something appeared that I needed, and then I'd buy another year, which would bring me up to date on everything I'd missed while not a member. You'd think reading 250 posts would have covered everything, but after I wrote my post (above), I read that if your membership lapses, you won't be entitled to all that you missed when you were not a member. You'll get updated on "core functionality," but not "extras."
If this is true, it's not as good as the current way of buying Sonar. Whenever you buy it, you get everything, and sometimes you get a little extra if you're buying near the end of a life cycle. If I have to maintain a membership to be sure I always get everything, that's a subscription, no matter how you spin it or what you call it, and I don't care for it.
If you had X1 then skipped X2 a and bought back in at X3 then you'd have the same core program and all the extras that come with X3!butmif there was something extra add on that came with X2 you wouldn't get that because you had skipped that whole version.
If you go to the monthly plan and then opt out and back in then you'll miss the add on content release while you were out. You'll still get the functional core program. Why should you get the same for opting out as someone who pays yearly or keeps up a monthly membership
If I decline to buy a certain release under the current (old) system, it's because I know what the "extras" are and I either don't want them or don't think they're worth the upgrade. Under the new system, I let my membership lapse and WHOOPS! here comes an "extra" that I didn't know about that I would have bought if I had, but now I don't get it, even if I later reinstate my membership. This smells to me like a way to keep me paying, you know, just in case.
What are you talking about? If you stop your membership but reinstate it later, you will get whatever feature that you now decide you want right away - but you need to pay for 12 months ( or buy it outright) to keep it. No different than it has always been.
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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Paul P
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:31:43
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Brando
Larry Jones
If I decline to buy a certain release under the current (old) system, it's because I know what the "extras" are and I either don't want them or don't think they're worth the upgrade. Under the new system, I let my membership lapse and WHOOPS! here comes an "extra" that I didn't know about that I would have bought if I had, but now I don't get it, even if I later reinstate my membership. This smells to me like a way to keep me paying, you know, just in case.
What are you talking about? If you stop your membership but reinstate it later, you will get whatever feature that you now decide you want right away - but you need to pay for 12 months ( or buy it outright) to keep it. No different than it has always been.
What Larry will lose are the freebies that have nothing to do with the core of the product. It was the same with the X2 Pro Content Club. The only people who got those were those who bought X2.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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Brando
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:39:33
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Paul P
Brando
Larry Jones
If I decline to buy a certain release under the current (old) system, it's because I know what the "extras" are and I either don't want them or don't think they're worth the upgrade. Under the new system, I let my membership lapse and WHOOPS! here comes an "extra" that I didn't know about that I would have bought if I had, but now I don't get it, even if I later reinstate my membership. This smells to me like a way to keep me paying, you know, just in case.
What are you talking about? If you stop your membership but reinstate it later, you will get whatever feature that you now decide you want right away - but you need to pay for 12 months ( or buy it outright) to keep it. No different than it has always been.
What Larry will lose are the freebies that have nothing to do with the core of the product. It was the same with the X2 Pro Content Club. The only people who got those were those who bought X2.
Well sure - but he said that he "would have bought" - so to me was talking about a core feature. Either way people are hung up by what they perceive are differences from what they are used to ( change is never easy) and failing to see all the similarities to the way it has "always" worked.
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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Paul P
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:42:26
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Brando
Well sure - but he said that he "would have bought" - so to me was talking about a core feature.
Ok. But then let's repeat the fact that there'll always be only one core and whenever you do buy it, you get everything that's been done to it up until that point, and possibly for more into the future depending on your plan.
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Larry Jones
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:46:58
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Brando
What are you talking about? If you stop your membership but reinstate it later, you will get whatever feature that you now decide you want right away - but you need to pay for 12 months ( or buy it outright) to keep it. No different than it has always been.
I'm talking about unknown extras that are offered some time down the road, and are not available to be evaluated at purchase time. I'm talking about having the information necessary to make an informed purchase, or decline to make the purchase. Under the new system I would have to pay to find out what those are, and they will not be included if I reinstate later, meaning I will have to maintain a membership in case something useful is released. FYI, I know there is a difference between core functions and extras. I do use some of the extras that have come with previous versions. In most cases, I bought those versions because of the extras.
SONAR Platinum 2017.10 • CbB • Win10 • i7/2600 • 16GB RAM • Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 • NVIDIA GeForce 8400GS
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Paul P
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:49:56
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Larry Jones
FYI, I know there is a difference between core functions and extras. I do use some of the extras that have come with previous versions. In most cases, I bought those versions because of the extras.
I'm not arguing with you, but for X2, you couldn't have based your decision on what was going to be given away during the Content Club.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:51:30
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Platinum upgrade from X3 professional: the same price as last year.
Full Pay upfront: Less than 41 cents per day
Monthly pay: Less than 66 cents per day
And CW is offering to help you pay by accepting monthly payments.
How is this not completely understandable?
X3 had 5 updates over 6 months. Now for about the same price we will get 12 months of updates.
Twice the support for the same cost.
How is this wrong?
Lots of comments about how the new features are not worth an extra 50 bucs and we DO NOT KNOW all the improvements that have been made to the interface.
Good thing there are actual numbers to use for this "conversation."
Good thing we are not in a bar talking politics and religion.
$149+ for the best DAW on the planet and lots of complaints about getting more for less.
Phenomenal!
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Paul G
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 11:54:09
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Anderton
.... We need more idealism, we need more companies to treat their customers with respect, we need more companies that give back to communities. We need more CEOs who are actually part of the world where their products are sold. We need more people who share their knowledge instead of hoard it, and more people who realize that humans are fragile so we can be more tolerant of others' frailties.
Very well said, Craig! Amen! The world can be changed for the better but it must come from within. This is a great start! 
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:07:25
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TabSel
Well, up to NOW, there was little financial motivation for cakewalk to hunt and squash bugs, so they concentrated on feature development for the next version one occasionally put out a free patch with bug fixes.
NOW, they get paid for bug fixing, so they MIGHT be way more motivated to squash bugs fast, in order to keep subscribers subscribing, so that MIGHT have a positive effect for the product quality.
However, it remains to be seen, not promised, as they get my money NOW, whereas I get the promise of more agile software development/maintenance. This I simply can't accept, at least not for the price.
The following is true for EVERY software company that charges money for software: There have not been, are not at present, and never will be free bug fixes. Bug fixes are factored into the pricing structure of the software. It is 100% not true that Cakewalk had little financial motivation to hunt and squash bugs. Cakewalk has always had extreme financial motivation to squash bugs, because if a program is too buggy, people will switch to other DAWs. On the other hand if bugs are addressed, then people feel good about the software and will continue to support the company. I believe one of the many reasons X3 has been so successful is because of the dedication shown in releasing X3b, X3c, X3d, and X3e in quick succession to eliminate bugs. BUT those were not free updates. They were factored into the cost of what you paid for X3, whether you were a new user or updated. So really, nothing has changed.
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:10:54
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Teksonik
Sorry, late to the thread and can't read all 33 pages. I just upgraded from X2 P to X3 Producer for a very nice price, happy with that purchase. Can someone point me to some information that lists what I would get for upgrading to Platinum now for $149 ?
An open comment to ALL software developers. I'm not paying a monthly subscription fee for software......any software. Period. End of Story.
It's not a subscription-based rental program. You own the software. You can buy it upfront the way you do now and not make monthly payments. The ONLY difference is you can make monthly payments if that's easier for you financially and after 12 months, you OWN the software and it NEVER expires. Please read the FAQ.
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Paul G
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:13:47
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Kylotan
.... I might grab it at the $149 level just in the hope that I get enough bug fixes on top to make it worthwhile. But I'll know 12 months from now whether that gamble paid off or not.
...and that's exactly the point! It's going to be up to Cake to give us enough 'stuff' to make us want to upgrade again in 2016! Thanks for that!
post edited by Paul G - 2015/01/16 12:27:07
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:15:23
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Paul P
Larry Jones
FYI, I know there is a difference between core functions and extras. I do use some of the extras that have come with previous versions. In most cases, I bought those versions because of the extras.
I'm not arguing with you, but for X2, you couldn't have based your decision on what was going to be given away during the Content Club.
Again, let me emphasize what's planned is not what the Content Club was about. The Content Club stuff was free. Upcoming content is part of the membership program. I could never have justified the time required to come up with original content had it been given away for free. Now I can. Those Amp Sims and the processor FX chains I designed would never have happened under the Content Club model.
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Paul P
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:15:36
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Anderton
It's not a subscription-based rental program. You own the software. You can buy it upfront the way you do now and not make monthly payments. The ONLY difference is you can make monthly payments if that's easier for you financially and after 12 months, you OWN the software and it NEVER expires. Please read the FAQ.
Craig, it is a subscription or rental-based program for the first year for those who opt to pay per month. What you say is only true starting with the second year (well, actually the 12th payment of the first year, so after 11 months and a day).
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:18:20
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Larry Jones I'm talking about unknown extras that are offered some time down the road, and are not available to be evaluated at purchase time. I'm talking about having the information necessary to make an informed purchase, or decline to make the purchase. Under the new system I would have to pay to find out what those are, and they will not be included if I reinstate later, meaning I will have to maintain a membership in case something useful is released.Cakewalk has a track record that goes back 28 years. I think there's been enough time to evaluate whether on balance, Cakewalk comes up with enough cool stuff in a year to justify upgrading. Not to mention that Cakewalk will be giving more advance notice about what's coming up, although still, it can't go too far into the future because that would tip off competitors on how to counter it.
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:21:35
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Paul P
Anderton
It's not a subscription-based rental program. You own the software. You can buy it upfront the way you do now and not make monthly payments. The ONLY difference is you can make monthly payments if that's easier for you financially and after 12 months, you OWN the software and it NEVER expires. Please read the FAQ.
Craig, it is a subscription or rental-based program for the first year for those who opt to pay per month.
But that's semantics. A program is the entirety of the model. In a rental program, you rent. Obviously this is not a rental program because at its conclusion, you stop "renting" and own the software. The closest you can come to a rental program is to call the monthly payment variation a "rent-to-own" program.
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bapu
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:24:00
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Anderton
Paul P
Anderton
It's not a subscription-based rental program. You own the software. You can buy it upfront the way you do now and not make monthly payments. The ONLY difference is you can make monthly payments if that's easier for you financially and after 12 months, you OWN the software and it NEVER expires. Please read the FAQ.
Craig, it is a subscription or rental-based program for the first year for those who opt to pay per month.
But that's semantics. A program is the entirety of the model. In a rental program, you rent. Obviously this is not a rental program because at its conclusion, you stop "renting" and own the software. The closest you can come to a rental program is to call the monthly payment variation a "rent-to-own" program.
But if you pay (ONLY) less than 12 months (i.e 1 or 3 or 9 or 11) then it is only a rental as it will revert to demo mode and you do not have at your disposal an unlocked program.
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Paul P
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:24:36
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Anderton
But that's semantics. A program is the entirety of the model. In a rental program, you rent. Obviously this is not a rental program because at its conclusion, you stop "renting" and own the software. The closest you can come to a rental program is to call the monthly payment variation a "rent-to-own" program.
Are you deliberately confusing the issue ? How is the program different from renting for the first 11 months ? And I think it's great that you can now rent Sonar for a few months. You should be crying this from the tree tops. Why aren't you ? 
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:33:04
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bapu
But if you pay (ONLY) less than 12 months (i.e 1 or 3 or 9 or 11) then it is only a rental as it will revert to demo mode and you do not have at your disposal an unlocked program.
So, to be clear, if a person does not pay the total amount for the program, the program does not work as a fully paid program. Correct? Why should it be otherwise? That is how a lease works. Don't pay, you got no car. Pay all the payments and experience joy and happiness of ownership. Mortgage works that way too.
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TabSel
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:34:49
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☄ Helpfulby DragonBlood 2015/01/17 10:53:21
If X3 ever was so successful as you said Craig, why change? Why discontinue the success, have happy loyal customers and build upon and grow your good reputation and gain new customers by that, In contrast to upsetting loyal und scare potential new customers?
Don't get it...
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Atsuko
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:39:05
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Craig, I hope to you all the patience and tolerance of the world.
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 12:45:28
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Paul P
Anderton
But that's semantics. A program is the entirety of the model. In a rental program, you rent. Obviously this is not a rental program because at its conclusion, you stop "renting" and own the software. The closest you can come to a rental program is to call the monthly payment variation a "rent-to-own" program.
Are you deliberately confusing the issue ? How is the program different from renting for the first 11 months ?
There is a logical fallacy called special pleading where you look at only a selected portion of something to make a point because that particular selection supports the point, but the entirety does not. I think that's what's happening here. "The program" is a model that encompasses more than 11 months. If you want to look at only a selected part of one aspect of the program and not consider that it's designed to last more than 11 months, then it has the appearance of a rental program. But then the 12th month hits, and its true nature of not being a rental program (as the world defines it) becomes obvious. If it was a rental program, then you'd rent for the 12th month, 13th month, etc. You could say with equal validity that SONAR's model sure looks like giving away software for free because if you download the demo, that's the case for month 1. But at month 2, you discover it is not a model that gives away software for free. Similarly, at month 12, it's obvious the "rental program" is not a rental program, regardless of what it looked like if you consider only a portion of the model. And I think it's great that you can now rent Sonar for a few months. You should be crying this from the tree tops.
Why aren't you ?
Because the overwhelming sentiment in the forums is that people want to own what they buy. This is not a rental program and promoting it as such would be inaccurate. If people want to treat it as such by not following the full model, they can do so but that's not the point. The point is this is about a way to own software, not rent it.
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 13:16:08
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☄ Helpfulby Larry Jones 2015/01/16 15:33:09
Larry Jones
Brando
What are you talking about? If you stop your membership but reinstate it later, you will get whatever feature that you now decide you want right away - but you need to pay for 12 months ( or buy it outright) to keep it. No different than it has always been.
I'm talking about unknown extras that are offered some time down the road, and are not available to be evaluated at purchase time. I'm talking about having the information necessary to make an informed purchase, or decline to make the purchase. Under the new system I would have to pay to find out what those are, and they will not be included if I reinstate later, meaning I will have to maintain a membership in case something useful is released.
FYI, I know there is a difference between core functions and extras. I do use some of the extras that have come with previous versions. In most cases, I bought those versions because of the extras.
Okay... I'm logging in breifly to entertain your concerns because I know you to be a generally reasonable poster and are being mostly reasonable with yoru concerns here (unlike others who... well IDK what the heck they want aside from a complete rimmo from the Bakers). This is a long thread so you probably missed it but I think my interaction with Andrew yesterday will probably explain the purpose behind one of your concerns but first... You actually will know what is upcoming in the next couple months by viewing this page... http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Up-Next#start However some of what is presented there may be included in the core bundle anyway so even if you lapse then reup you may still get it. Hard to say. For stuff that isn't (which from my impressions thus far will be more akin to the old X2 Content Club which was more grab bag items). I made a suggestion that for items like that that will be missed out on by users who lapse that maybe they could offer those products in the store for a PREMIUM price (meaning it would cost more to snag them a la carte after the fact to avoid undermining the business model). There is unfortunately no way to know what might be coming down the pipe in month 6 or 8 or 12 because I'm assuming the Bakers won't even know right away. These are things that would have been included in the next point version upgrade in the old model (ie: x3 vs. x4) so we never knew that info anyway until the release was announced. It is fair to be wary because back then you were paying AFTER the fact and it will be up to Cake to prove themselves worthy BUT you won't miss out on anything truly important because that type of thing will be included once you re-up. Also if somehow it IS something really cool that is produced by Cake (like let's say they decided to toss in the Concrete Limiter one month or some new PC module that doesn't get included upon re-upping) since that kind of thing is in house production it will likely be posted in the Cake store anyway. I'd imagine things that would be missed out on are more third party goodies or upgrades (like maybe they'll make a deal with Overloud for a new offering of theirs or allow you to upgrade to a full version of TH2 or something). Those types of things can be acquired from the companies anyway. So in all likelihood if there is something they include that you absolutely MUST have but you miss it chances are you will be able to acquire it some other way. Now this was part of the discussion I was having with Andrew (which actually just a quick 2 post interaction if you can call that a discussion). I was asking about whether there was some kind of time limit before our upgrade status expires and we would then have to pay more. For example... As an X1 Pro owner I qualified for the upgrade to X2 Pro for less than everyone else. If I did that then I qualified for the lowest upgrade price to X3. If I did NOT upgrade to X2 then I would have had to pay the "I own an older version of Sonar" upgrade price (because I only owned X1). That IIRC was a $100 difference in price. So my question was how long do I, as an X3 Producer owner, have to upgrade to Sonar Platinum at the $200 upgrade price for my tier level? I expected maybe the answer would be one year to follow the old system. Even in that scenario I could NOT upgrade for a full year from now and get the current version being released (so that is point upgrade 1... essentially X4), then get everything they release this year (which would be "X5" in the old model although I wouldn't get to use it until next year) and THEN still get another 12 months of upgrades (X6) all for that single upgrade price of $200. So three whole years of versions for the price of one upgrade. To me that made NO business sense whatsoever and as I said I assumed there would be some kind of cut off point before you drop an upgrade tier. Apparently not. That is EXACTLY what I could do and although I'm sure Cake would prefer I wouldn't that is supposedly how this is built. So how does this benefit them? Well the answer was simple. Their way to get you to stay on board and stay current with your membership is to make that membership WORTH it. That means THEY will have to haul butt. This model HEAVILY benefits the end user and gives them far more options than the old method. The only trick Cake has up their sleeve is that those little extra content goodies will make you want to stay subscribed... so you know they better be good. If not they shoot THEMSELVES in the foot. But they can't do this by holding back core functions or a robust featureset because that would bork the program and make potential new users not want to buy in. Honestly I feel they almost painted themselves into a serious corner here but hey... if they are confident enough to in their product to make this work then damn... that makes me pretty confident this is going to be pretty spectacular... and I'm a brutal pessimist in general. So basically would you miss out on something? Yeah but if you do then a) it is likely it won't be something that will hinder your experience with the program, b) you may be able to snag it anyway but you'll just have to pay full price for it because you didn't take advantage of full membership (which is the point of membership) and/or c) you should have stayed signed up because that is really the ONLY thing Cake is trying to get you to do for this unheard of level of leniency in regards to the program costs for current Sonar owners. I've been saying for the past couple days since the announcement that this is essentially a trust based model (you basically trust Cake or you don't) but now after knowing more of the facts about how this works I still think it is trust based but to think this is a bad deal that is putting you at some sort of risk then you have less trust for Cakewalk than a crackhead with no pants and a looted TV in his hands. At which point you gotta ask yourself... why would ever buy anything Cakewalk would put out? Even then it is all moot because you can just sign up month to month and if you aren't seeing them produce after a couple months then you cancel and your out $40. If you see promise keep paying them for the rest of the 12 month period or pay upfront for the next 12 months and you keep everything. Or of course you can just sit back, pay nothing, watch the program develop and grow and buy in whenever you want and get EVERYTHING (except those extra goodies that you can probably get elsewhere anyway or do without) for one price. I simply do not see the problem with any of this. I seriously think the Bakers are insane or have huge brass balls to stake their entire business on this model. The latter would imply that shiz is going to be REALLY awesome and they know it. I know X3 is brilliant. I know the other forums have been completely abuzz about it. I know they have big money backing. I see crazy awesome development. I say (in my most Canadian accent evar) Freakin' give 'er, buddies!
post edited by Beepster - 2015/01/16 13:32:07
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 13:25:24
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TabSel
If X3 ever was so successful as you said Craig, why change? Why discontinue the success, have happy loyal customers and build upon and grow your good reputation and gain new customers by that, In contrast to upsetting loyal und scare potential new customers?
Don't get it...
This IS X3. They are using X3 as the foundation for these versions and expanding on it. It is very obvious that they are doing exactly what you just said... captilizing on a major success. Seriously, dude. You've been trying to crap all over this for 24 hours (or more) now. If you don't like it don't buy in. Everybody has listened to your concerns, you've gotten tons of feedback. If you are still unhappy then I do not think you ever will be. Maybe just sit back for a while and watch how it all plays out and maybe you will end up liking it. Trust me... if they screw it up, despite my enthusiasm at the moment, I have no problems walking away from Cake. I was going to do it after X2 but X3 came along and I'm a rabid fan now.
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Paul P
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 13:26:13
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Beepster
I seriously think the Bakers are insane or have huge brass balls to stake their entire business on this model.
We've always be able to buy the current version for a fraction of the price if we waited long enough. A while back you could upgrade from X2 to X3 producer for less that 60$. That's the same as the new system in which you wait three years then pay 200$.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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benvenisti
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 13:28:23
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brconflict
nzpaul
I'm sold - I think it's going to be brilliant
I've pre-purchased my copy now (X3 producer to Platinum) from JRR for $125.16 (with the GROUP 16% off code)
Thanks for the tip! A "groupbuyauto" discount is still in play. I can digest that cost. But my expectations just went up.
Now THAT's what I was waiting for!!!! Thank you for that. PS: I've been using Adobe Creative Cloud and Orifice 365 on the subscription models going on 2 years. I definitely save money and get to use them on more than one computer (with Office 365 on 5!). I do NOT have to be connected to the Internet after the installs, although I usually am generally connected except when doing music or video (I have a profile that kills everything that even remotely (no pun intended) might affect recording. listening or watching. I actually welcome Sonar embracing this model as I generally upgrade right away to the next version. As long as everything is backward compatible with Producer X-3 I should have no worries with new releases and patches (I would think based on prior experience). I have had no real problems with X3e except for the AVOX4 fiasco which I don't attribute to Cakewalk and was fixed in the X3-c patch. There is no greater credibility and integrity in this business than Craig Anderton and also Gibson, again based on my almost 30+ years of experience with them and Cakewalk since it was 12-Tone Systems and Cakewalk 1.0 in 1987. I still have the original floppies and the Voyetra MPU-401 MIDI Card From Turtle Beach which I got for Texture in 1984. (Hello Craig!). In almost 30 years I have had close to ZERO issues with Cakewalk products and Tech-Support. I have not had to call them in at least ten years! FWIW: I don't think I have ever seen a busier (and redundant?) thread in my life. I have been lurking but thanks to the JRR group buy post (A SPECIAL THANK YOU) all my questions are answered. Thank you all, except for you know who! I would say that poster is a "wrong note" but there's no such thing as a wrong note! (And even if there were, the right one is just a half-step away).
post edited by benvenisti - 2015/01/16 13:51:13
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SilkTone
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 13:31:15
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TabSel
If X3 ever was so successful as you said Craig, why change? Why discontinue the success, have happy loyal customers and build upon and grow your good reputation and gain new customers by that, In contrast to upsetting loyal und scare potential new customers?
Don't get it...
That doesn't make sense. Nothing has been taken away. Meaning you can continue to pay just like you could for the last decade or two - you pay upfront for full software (license) ownership. What has changed is that you can now also choose to do it differently if that works better for you. If anything this would make Sonar more successful because people that would otherwise not have been able to pay the full amount upfront, now have an option to pay in a more convenient way. Now if CW actually removed the option to pay upfront, then you have a point. Otherwise CW isn't "upsetting loyal customers" in any way that makes any sense to me at least.
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