Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 13:45:14
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Paul P
Beepster
I seriously think the Bakers are insane or have huge brass balls to stake their entire business on this model.
We've always be able to buy the current version for a fraction of the price if we waited long enough. A while back you could upgrade from X2 to X3 producer for less that 60$. That's the same as the new system in which you wait three years then pay 200$.
Right, and you were taking a gamble in that scenario (there was some guy freaking out yesterday about missing out on a cheap version of X3 because he waited a whole year and a half despite all the specials waiting for it to drop even lower). However this is a brand new product so we don't know whether there will be discounts or sales but knowing Cake I'd imagine there will be. Look, I'm cheap as hell (because I have to be because I'm broke) but there comes a point when you simply have to pay for something. Really $60 for a whole version upgrade of Sonar is riduculous considering what comes with it. I doubt those types of deals will come back except for maybe up to date members and even then that's still ridiculous to expect. That's like buying a massive set of quality studio tools worth hundreds of dollars for the price of a case of (cheap) imported beer. It twists my guts to sound like a sycophant bootlicker here but some of you guys are being unreasonable in your expectations. Just 15 years ago that $60 would have gotten me about an hour's worth of studio time in my FRIEND'S studio. I think I would have gotten like 15 minutes in the other studios in town. Yikes. Edit: and just to add to that before if you didn't manage to upgrade to a version before the next release you could not get that version at ALL unless you found an old stock box from a retailer. Again that is tricky game to play.
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michaelhanson
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 13:58:04
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The music industry must really be in bad shape when $14.99 a month for the entire studio is too expensive, but 15 years ago $60 bought an hours worth of time.
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 14:02:48
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MakeShift
The music industry must really be in bad shape when $14.99 a month for the entire studio is too expensive, but 15 years ago it bought an hours worth of time.
That's what we used to charge for REHEARSALS in our (granted very nice/gear provided) studio... AND it was a 3 hour minimum... AND that was actually only about 8 years ago. In my personal, cat piss smelling, hole in the wall, fartshow of a "studio" I used to get $30 for three hours and was booked solid... and all I provided was a PA... no storage.
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SGodfrey
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 14:30:54
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This looks like very bad news for me. The only way I've been able to afford Sonar upgrades is to wait roughly a year until they're about to release a new version and then take advantage of the final discount price.
Now I'm stuck on X2 Producer with no way to upgrade since I can't justify the non-discounted price and it looks like X3 is no longer available now. Feeling pretty deflated right now!
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 14:46:06
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SGodfrey
This looks like very bad news for me. The only way I've been able to afford Sonar upgrades is to wait roughly a year until they're about to release a new version and then take advantage of the final discount price.
Now I'm stuck on X2 Producer with no way to upgrade since I can't justify the non-discounted price and it looks like X3 is no longer available now. Feeling pretty deflated right now!
Call around your local retailers. They'll likely still have boxed versions in storage for a while. What you will have to pay for one... well right now it'll still likely be quite a bit and I don't think there are boxed upgrades to Sonar unlike other programs but retailers usually don't clear out their back rooms until the end of the year so MAYBE you can find something down the road for a reasonable price. However I think a better option might be to call Cakewalk and explain yourself. Maybe they will have pity and sell you an upgrade. They are pretty amenable. Seriously, I would much rather have to squat on X3 than X2... which was a bit of a nuisance for me. X3 however is awesome.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 15:01:24
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SGodfrey
This looks like very bad news for me. The only way I've been able to afford Sonar upgrades is to wait roughly a year until they're about to release a new version and then take advantage of the final discount price.
Now I'm stuck on X2 Producer with no way to upgrade since I can't justify the non-discounted price and it looks like X3 is no longer available now. Feeling pretty deflated right now!
Is a monthly payment not an option for you?
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Larry Jones
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 15:20:39
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Paul P
Larry Jones
FYI, I know there is a difference between core functions and extras. I do use some of the extras that have come with previous versions. In most cases, I bought those versions because of the extras.
I'm not arguing with you, but for X2, you couldn't have based your decision on what was going to be given away during the Content Club.
You're right, Paul. In the case of X2, I goofed. I barely used it, and I shouldn't have bought it. My mistake. But the Content Club had no bearing on my decision at the time.
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Kylotan
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 15:32:44
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cparmerlee
At this stage of DAW evolution, the features are more narrowly targeted. I find most of them don't really apply to what I do, but the MIDI changes fall right into my wheelhouse. I often work with MIDI generated in other programs, such as Band In A Box and Finale Human Playback. Most of the time, I can leave the MIDI alone, as I am going for realistic rendering of arrangements, not a commercial quality recording. But there are inevitably a few measures where the input just doesn't have the effect I want to present to the client. These MIDI editing improvements will really increase my productivity in those cases.
I'm genuinely interested in what benefit you are going to see - because as far as I can tell, a MIDI file created in the correct time signature is not going to need any work done to it to fit to a different tempo. What am I missing?
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Kylotan
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 15:40:46
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MakeShift
The music industry must really be in bad shape when $14.99 a month for the entire studio is too expensive, but 15 years ago $60 bought an hours worth of time.
Yup! 15 years ago the record company would typically pay for the studio because it could expect to sell records as a result. :) Now, we can do a lot more for much less, but we're also compensated much less for it. I think my bands' total lifetime revenue probably just about adds up to about the cost I've spent on Sonar to date, after 2 albums and 2 EPs. I don't begrudge Cakewalk making good money, nor would I demand that they lower their prices. I'm a software engineer myself and I know users tend to demand everything for free with the assumption you'll get your revenue from somewhere else, and it's not the case. But here, I've just put forward the honest truth, which is that I don't get $200 worth of value out of the software each year, so won't be subscribing full-time. What they choose to do with this information is up to them. :)
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Larry Jones
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 15:47:41
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Beepster
Okay... I'm logging in breifly to entertain your concerns because I know you to be a generally reasonable poster and are being mostly reasonable with yoru concerns here (unlike others who... well IDK what the heck they want aside from a complete rimmo from the Bakers).
This is a long thread so you probably missed it but I think my interaction with Andrew yesterday will probably explain the purpose behind one of your concerns but first...
You actually will know what is upcoming in the next couple months by viewing this page...
http://www.cakewalk.com/P..cts/SONAR/Up-Next#start
Thanks, Beepster. I think you're a reasonable poster, too. And thank you for going into such detail in your reply (which I have not quoted fully here, but everyone should go back and read it). I'm still trying to crystallize my thoughts and reservations on this whole thing, and if I manage to do so, I'll post again.
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Larry Jones
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 15:50:51
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SGodfrey
This looks like very bad news for me. The only way I've been able to afford Sonar upgrades is to wait roughly a year until they're about to release a new version and then take advantage of the final discount price.
Now I'm stuck on X2 Producer with no way to upgrade since I can't justify the non-discounted price and it looks like X3 is no longer available now. Feeling pretty deflated right now!
Some brick and mortar stores (maybe Amazon, too) will still have boxed X3s. You should get it if you can.
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Brando
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 16:04:02
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SGodfrey
This looks like very bad news for me. The only way I've been able to afford Sonar upgrades is to wait roughly a year until they're about to release a new version and then take advantage of the final discount price.
Now I'm stuck on X2 Producer with no way to upgrade since I can't justify the non-discounted price and it looks like X3 is no longer available now. Feeling pretty deflated right now!
Not sure which version(s) you have been looking at. How about stepping down to "Artist" ($49 or $4.99/month) from your X2 Producer?
Brando
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Brando
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 16:07:23
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Brando
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dbolt@busyhands.biz
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 16:21:47
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If I upgraded to X3 producer last month do I have a year membership? Or do I only get 12 months support and no updates?
Devon
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Paul P
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 16:23:30
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dbolt@busyhands.biz
If I upgraded to X3 producer last month do I have a year membership? Or do I only get 12 months support and no updates?
Sorry, but you get nothing. You bought at the end of the X3 window which is now closed. You have nothing to lose by calling Cakewalk, though...
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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SilkTone
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 17:07:05
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Kylotan
I don't begrudge Cakewalk making good money, nor would I demand that they lower their prices. I'm a software engineer myself and I know users tend to demand everything for free with the assumption you'll get your revenue from somewhere else, and it's not the case. But here, I've just put forward the honest truth, which is that I don't get $200 worth of value out of the software each year, so won't be subscribing full-time. What they choose to do with this information is up to them. :) I often wonder how well CW is doing given how little they actually charge for an application as complex as SONAR. I know CW is a pretty big operation (actually I'm not sure - just guessing), but how many customers do they really have? I'm also a software engineer and would love to work on music software instead of the generic stuff I work on now (all my home software pet projects are music related stuff). But when I looked around, those kinds of jobs paid about 1/2 what I'm getting now so I guess it will have to be a fantasy. But what you say is true... People more and more feel that they are entitled to free software. To me the current SONAR price is a very good deal. As others have said, it would have cost you a fortune to do all this without this kind of software.
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SGodfrey
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 17:22:23
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FastBikerBoy
SGodfrey
This looks like very bad news for me. The only way I've been able to afford Sonar upgrades is to wait roughly a year until they're about to release a new version and then take advantage of the final discount price.
Now I'm stuck on X2 Producer with no way to upgrade since I can't justify the non-discounted price and it looks like X3 is no longer available now. Feeling pretty deflated right now!
Is a monthly payment not an option for you?
Thanks for the thought Karl, but no, it's still full price in the end. I'm just a hobbyist, with more enthusiasm than talent, not much time to play and shallow pockets!
Sonar Platinum x64 Cakewalk UA-25EX Asus X556UA-DM898T i7-7500U 8GB 1TB, Windows 10 Home Komplete 11 Ultimate, Kontrol S49, Maschine Jam, Mikro mk2, Arturia V Collection 4
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Beepster
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 17:24:17
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Paul P
dbolt@busyhands.biz
If I upgraded to X3 producer last month do I have a year membership? Or do I only get 12 months support and no updates?
Sorry, but you get nothing. You bought at the end of the X3 window which is now closed.
You have nothing to lose by calling Cakewalk, though...
Not true. He gets all the patches released this past year (X3e) and a year's worth of tech support starting after he registers. He does NOT get the new version/membership though BUT he does get access to the X3 upgrade discounts. He bought X3 so he gets EVERYTHING that comes with X3. He does not just get the initial release and a lump of coal. He probably got it at a ridiculous discount too.
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 17:56:10
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TabSel
If X3 ever was so successful as you said Craig, why change? Why discontinue the success, have happy loyal customers and build upon and grow your good reputation and gain new customers by that, In contrast to upsetting loyal und scare potential new customers?
Don't get it...
If you had a really successful album, wouldn't you want your next album to be even better? Be more adventurous? Reach out in new directions? Take some chances? Gain a wider audience? "He not busy being born is busy dying." - Bob Dylan (P.S. The number of scared customers seems to be in a minority. Multiple identities created by one troll don't count as multiple people.)
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jsaras
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 17:59:23
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I'd gladly pay $400 to have all bugs in 8.53 fixed. I have no need for newly added half-baked features that need even more fixes. I got off the Sonar submarine when Cakewalk laid the X1 egg. My co-writer friend has the current Sonar X release and he has all sorts of oddball issues.
I've kept 8.53 for legacy projects but most of my new projects are Reaper based. It's been unbelievably rock-solid and they focus their time on fixing the issues on their software rather than cramming it with new bloatware to find a reason to sell the product once again.
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 18:05:03
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Atsuko
Craig, I hope to you all the patience and tolerance of the world.
Thanks, but the majority of the people "get it" and understand why this is better. I think it's entirely natural that some people, especially if they aren't familiar with Cakewalk's track record, are skeptical. I believe that skepticism will disappear once they see the program unfold.
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Paul P
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 18:10:00
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Beepster
...and a year's worth of tech support starting after he registers.
Really ? I didn't know that. I also just bought X3 but don't expect to be contacting support.
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SilkTone
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 18:30:06
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jsaras
I'd gladly pay $400 to have all bugs in 8.53 fixed. I have no need for newly added half-baked features that need even more fixes. I got off the Sonar submarine when Cakewalk laid the X1 egg. My co-writer friend has the current Sonar X release and he has all sorts of oddball issues. I don't know, it seems to me we would be more likely to get fixes for long-standing issues with the new model than previously. Previously there was always a hard deadline established long in advance, meaning the not-so-critical bugs got triaged into oblivion over and over again upfront. With the new model, there are no hard deadlines, so bugs might not be triaged upfront to the let's-fix-it-next-time bin. I might be wrong though. I'm just basing this off of how my own company does software releases. We follow strict deadlines established well in advance, and I see the same bugs pushed out to the next release over and over again. That is what the yearly release model requires. Hopefully someone from CW chimes in and lets us know if that might be the case, which would be great for getting older bugs fixed.
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Splat 
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 19:40:07
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400 dollars will hire a developer for two days if you are VERY lucky... Not sure if that model is sustainable.
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Larry Jones
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 19:48:51
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I guess things won't change that much under the new system. In general, we'll be paying more money, and in exchange we have the promise of continuous ongoing improvements. I'm mostly broke, so the "more money" part is not appealing to me. From Pro Audio 9 to X3, I've never been able to justify the expense of purchasing every single upgrade, and I won't be able to afford an ongoing membership, which means I'll miss out on some of the "extras" (even if they're offered later at a premium price to non-members). To Cakewalk staff (or anybody who knows): I see there is a " Coming Soon" page for core features. That will be helpful in deciding if and when to reactivate a membership. Will you be doing the same for the "extras?" I'd gladly buy in (for another year) for something specific, but I'm a little shy about maintaining a membership just to see what might happen down the road.
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Keni
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 19:58:18
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Hi Gang...
It appears that most of the pists in this thread are about the payment method. I'm near page 20 or so and I'm not seeing the no I'm curios about. I have no issues with the payment system though I feel the years following this year will feel very different as the new year brings only resetting the payment method and not receiving a big bunch of updates... I'll get used to that...
What I'm more concerned about right now is a bit of confusion that hopefully someone can set me straight on..
From X3 Producer to 2015 Platinum it seems to offer fewer ProChannel plugins than came with x3? I'm not counting those I purchased separately, but I didn't see the pc76 whicih I use a lot and what about the tape modeling? I bought a few others including the ca2a and the concrete limiter which again I use a lot...
So my question is if I go to Platinum, will I still have all the ProChannel devices I currently have? I'm guessing yes, but... :-)
Thanks!
Keni
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Earwax
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 20:02:09
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CakeAlexS
400 dollars will hire a developer for two days if you are VERY lucky... Not sure if that model is sustainable.
Humble reason would dictate that he was probably referring to the $150-$200 upgrade cost with regard to the Sonar product he owns now to a newer version, versus fixing the version he owns now. The snide remark was NOT helpful. It amazes me that the vast majority of comments in these 35 pages are dedicated to fighting over a financial model, and virtually no in-depth discussion is being had regarding specific bug fixes/improvements over the previous core product. To quote Jonas "I'd gladly pay $400.00..." if I knew what the bug fixes/improvements were in the new product before I bought it, as long as those bug fixes/improvements successfully addressed certain issues with the previous core product. Craig Anderton and other Cakewalk people have patiently expained the ins and outs of the financial model for the new Sonar. Why is it so hard to understand that some (if not all) people want to know exactly what was fixed/improved in the new Sonar as well? I own X3e. The difference between $150 to upgrade immediately versus $200.00 to upgrade later is a non-issue. What truly matters to me is that the new version of the core product not only works significantly better than the old version, but that the core functions ALL work in the new version without issue. I'll ask it again. Why is it so bleeding hard to have someone do what Noel Borthwick did with Sonar 8.5 - the "Whatsinaname" paper?
Pain - the absence of things hoped for, the evidence of catastrophes unforeseen.
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scook
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 20:02:29
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Keni
From X3 Producer to 2015 Platinum it seems to offer fewer ProChannel plugins than came with x3? I'm not counting those I purchased separately, but I didn't see the pc76 whicih I use a lot and what about the tape modeling? I bought a few others including the ca2a and the concrete limiter which again I use a lot...
So my question is if I go to Platinum, will I still have all the ProChannel devices I currently have? I'm guessing yes, but... :-)
Platinum includes all the PC modules which shipped with X3 and REMatrix Solo, a new convolution plug-in from Overloud. Check http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Versions#pc. All your other PC modules will work too.
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pentimentosound
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 20:09:56
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Keni
I burst out laughing at the "pists", thinking you were delineating between the pros and cons/gripes here, but it was probably a typo. Oh well, it made me laugh. Thanks! This thread could use some comic relief.
I will leave my X3ePE installed and therefore, all of my current Pro Channel items, will be available in X4(?) or Platinum or whatever....
That has worked for me in keeping things that I was used to/know how to use, in the next/new Sonar version, each time I've upgraded. I don't like it when things I use get dropped by the new version and it seems a small "price", for that access.
Michael
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mettelus
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 20:20:57
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby Larry Jones 2015/01/16 20:26:43
SGodfrey
FastBikerBoy
SGodfrey
This looks like very bad news for me. The only way I've been able to afford Sonar upgrades is to wait roughly a year until they're about to release a new version and then take advantage of the final discount price.
Now I'm stuck on X2 Producer with no way to upgrade since I can't justify the non-discounted price and it looks like X3 is no longer available now. Feeling pretty deflated right now!
Is a monthly payment not an option for you?
Thanks for the thought Karl, but no, it's still full price in the end. I'm just a hobbyist, with more enthusiasm than talent, not much time to play and shallow pockets!
One thing that has bothered me with this new structure is that X3 was pulled from the online store at the same time as the new announcement. This actually bothers me even more when I think on it again, but upgrades from 3rd parties still exist for X3 (although a cursory Google search shows some already pulling stock). I think the "hobbyist" perspective creates the most poignant point... Adobe's CC got kicked to the curb as soon as I sat back and pondered "I do this for fun, and own CS5.5, so without making a revenue stream (from Adobe products) to feed $600/yr to Adobe, what is the 'value?'" I am now reliving history, and my concerns are for the hobbyists and new users, both of whom will be pressured by this new structure.
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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