Paul P
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 20:46:08
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mettelus
One thing that has bothered me with this new structure is that X3 was pulled from the online store at the same time as the new announcement. This actually bothers me even more when I think on it again, but upgrades from 3rd parties still exist for X3 (although a cursory Google search shows some already pulling
It's interesting to see 18 copies of Sonar X3 Producer on amazon.com for 329$ sold by someone by the name of Cakewalk. There is also 1 copy left of the X3 Produce upgrade from X2 also by the same seller. There were 2 just a couple of hours ago. Full price at 150$ so whether it's worth it or not would depend on personal preferences I guess.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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Splat 
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 21:00:58
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CakeAlexS
400 dollars will hire a developer for two days if you are VERY lucky... Not sure if that model is sustainable.
Earwax
Humble reason would dictate that he was probably referring to the $150-$200 upgrade cost with regard to the Sonar product he owns now to a newer version, versus fixing the version he owns now. The snide remark was NOT helpful.
Not a snide remark and you speculated what you didn't read: jsaras
I'd gladly pay $400 to have all bugs in 8.53 fixed. I have no need for newly added half-baked features that need even more fixes. I got off the Sonar submarine when Cakewalk laid the X1 egg. My co-writer friend has the current Sonar X release and he has all sorts of oddball issues.
I've kept 8.53 for legacy projects but most of my new projects are Reaper based. It's been unbelievably rock-solid and they focus their time on fixing the issues on their software rather than cramming it with new bloatware to find a reason to sell the product once again.
Seems pretty clear.
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nzpaul
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 21:41:28
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CakeAlexS
400 dollars will hire a developer for two days if you are VERY lucky... Not sure if that model is sustainable.
For that short a time frame you'd be looking at a contractor and for $400 would be lucky to get 4 hours :)
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 22:02:31
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SilkTone
jsaras
I'd gladly pay $400 to have all bugs in 8.53 fixed. I have no need for newly added half-baked features that need even more fixes. I got off the Sonar submarine when Cakewalk laid the X1 egg. My co-writer friend has the current Sonar X release and he has all sorts of oddball issues.
I don't know, it seems to me we would be more likely to get fixes for long-standing issues with the new model than previously. Previously there was always a hard deadline established long in advance, meaning the not-so-critical bugs got triaged into oblivion over and over again upfront.
With the new model, there are no hard deadlines, so bugs might not be triaged upfront to the let's-fix-it-next-time bin.
I might be wrong though. I'm just basing this off of how my own company does software releases. We follow strict deadlines established well in advance, and I see the same bugs pushed out to the next release over and over again. That is what the yearly release model requires.
Hopefully someone from CW chimes in and lets us know if that might be the case, which would be great for getting older bugs fixed.
You are 100% correct. In the past we would make fixes and improvements for 6-8 months or so then shift over to a new version. Now we'll be regularly making improvements but also adding new features. And as a bonus, working on less features at a time will help improve the quality of an already great product. A lot of people also have mentioned that releasing products sooner somehow implies they are not ready or are in beta. That couldn't be further from the truth. The big difference now is once they are ready and tested, we can release them immediately. No holding back.
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Andrew Rossa
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 22:07:24
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mettelus
SGodfrey
FastBikerBoy
SGodfrey
This looks like very bad news for me. The only way I've been able to afford Sonar upgrades is to wait roughly a year until they're about to release a new version and then take advantage of the final discount price.
Now I'm stuck on X2 Producer with no way to upgrade since I can't justify the non-discounted price and it looks like X3 is no longer available now. Feeling pretty deflated right now!
Is a monthly payment not an option for you?
Thanks for the thought Karl, but no, it's still full price in the end. I'm just a hobbyist, with more enthusiasm than talent, not much time to play and shallow pockets!
One thing that has bothered me with this new structure is that X3 was pulled from the online store at the same time as the new announcement. This actually bothers me even more when I think on it again, but upgrades from 3rd parties still exist for X3 (although a cursory Google search shows some already pulling stock).
I think the "hobbyist" perspective creates the most poignant point... Adobe's CC got kicked to the curb as soon as I sat back and pondered "I do this for fun, and own CS5.5, so without making a revenue stream (from Adobe products) to feed $600/yr to Adobe, what is the 'value?'" I am now reliving history, and my concerns are for the hobbyists and new users, both of whom will be pressured by this new structure.
When a new version comes out, we pull the old. This way customers get the latest version. And from now on, when any customer purchases, they will always get the latest version. That includes retail as well. So gone are the days where you buy an old version mistakenly only to come home and see there's something new out there. Or buying a product and then seeing a new version come out the next week. You are always up to date in our model.
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Earwax
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 22:12:24
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CakeAlexS
CakeAlexS
400 dollars will hire a developer for two days if you are VERY lucky... Not sure if that model is sustainable.
Earwax
Humble reason would dictate that he was probably referring to the $150-$200 upgrade cost with regard to the Sonar product he owns now to a newer version, versus fixing the version he owns now. The snide remark was NOT helpful.
Not a snide remark and you speculated what you didn't read:
jsaras
I'd gladly pay $400 to have all bugs in 8.53 fixed. I have no need for newly added half-baked features that need even more fixes. I got off the Sonar submarine when Cakewalk laid the X1 egg. My co-writer friend has the current Sonar X release and he has all sorts of oddball issues.
I've kept 8.53 for legacy projects but most of my new projects are Reaper based. It's been unbelievably rock-solid and they focus their time on fixing the issues on their software rather than cramming it with new bloatware to find a reason to sell the product once again.
Seems pretty clear.
Yes. It's pretty clear he was referring to the issue of bug fixes, and, as a cost to a consumer for one sample of the product, how much he would pay as that individual customer to purchase a verson of the software with the bugs fixed. It's also pretty clear he was NOT referring to the prospect of hiring an individual contractor to fix the bugs in Sonar 8.5.3. To suggest that he was is just, well, silly. C'mon Alex. I really don't understand why you are willing to participate in 36 pages of discussion about pricing and new features/content, but you're NOT willing to devote a few pages to core product fixes and improvements, particularly those improvements based on user requests. And no, I am not talking about adding new content or features. I'm talking about fixes and improvements to the core product. I understand your pricing structure, and why it makes sense. I'm not arguing that. I don't understand why you don't understand that knowing what fixes and improvements have been made to the core product would be important to users. And yeah, I did read everything Jsaras typed.
Pain - the absence of things hoped for, the evidence of catastrophes unforeseen.
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myconsumerclub
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 22:59:13
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Lot of drama loving whiny crybabys who can't figure out what a great deal this is. I bet if some of these people were asked to make change for a $20 and they only had to give me 2 $5 bills they would find a reason to complain about helping to change my $20 bill. Either that or they really do lack basic math skills to understand that this is a bargain this year because we get the upgrade we wanted for $149 plus they are throwing the next upgrade in for FREE. Hello do you guys not comprende what FREE means? Plus we get 3 ad packs. I need more drums to feed my software so for me that is a great offer and I am looking forward to using that new mixing feature.
As far as content and features I would like to see worked on there needs to be more live usage features. If I can direct you to other software that has what I am needing I would mention Forte, Cantibile and even ReVavler has this feature to load up fx software and switch on the fly live from one chain of fx to another using simple midi switching hardware or controllers. I know we can go from one marker to the next in x3 and use controls to achieve this but that then takes you out of being able to record while playing live and I would love to do that everytime I play a live show and integrate the software to also playback recorded backing tracks as well in case I would ever wan't to fire the rest of the band and go solo. As a guitarist this is key so I can use the same sounds live that I am using in the studio and I think this live switching capability would be cool for keys as well and I play keys a lot as well.
What would be even cooler is if the mix switching capability could be used live like this and then we could control mixes live without having to pay a sound man to mess up the sound.
Samsung I7 8 mb ram windows 8 64 bit on everything x2 & X1 producer line 6 podfarm gold interface event monitors Ibanez rg 350 guitar and GA6CE classical edirol pcr 500 keystation 88 plugins out the wazoo
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Zo
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 23:16:45
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May i ask how will the versions incremented ....
like "i got the plantnum "26 months version" or it will be like Platnum 1 , 2 , 3 ect ....
And how to synchronise project with other people versions ...does y 26 months versions will work in my friend 13 months version ?
For sale (PM me) : transfert ilok includedEventide Ultrachannel make offersSoftube Summit EQIK Neve 1081 , Neve precision Comp/LimEastWest GoshtwriterSoundforge Pro 12
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bitman
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 23:19:34
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
Users that only buy one month won't be able to use SONAR after 30 days.
It says here: https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/MembershipIf I choose Monthly Membership payments, can I cancel before 12 Months?Yes, but 12 consecutive monthly payments are required to permanently activate SONAR and any updates you have received. If you cancel payment or don’t pay for at least 12 months, SONAR will revert to demo mode. This means you can’t save or export projects, however anything you saved up to that point will still open and play in the demo. Once you resume payments, you can make new edits and save them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is really if great importance to me here as the new Sonar will undoubtedly require some adjustments to my control surface code just to keep pace. I don't need it to save I just need it do what it does on my dev machine. So which is it really? Will Sonar not even launch or go into demo mode and just not save? :Ron
post edited by bitman - 2015/01/16 23:26:35
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scook
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 23:19:36
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Zo
May i ask how will the versions incremented ....
like "i got the plantnum "26 months version" or it will be like Platnum 1 , 2 , 3 ect ....
And how to synchronise project with other people versions ...does y 26 months versions will work in my friend 13 months version ?
There is still a version and build number in the About screen
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scook
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 23:35:55
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Historically fixes were published with the first patch release. This release may be different but I am not sure why it would be.
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 23:36:54
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Keni
So my question is if I go to Platinum, will I still have all the ProChannel devices I currently have? I'm guessing yes, but... :-)
Here's the comparison chart. All the X3 ProChannel modules are included, and just like going from X2 to X3, anything you purchased outside of the program will be available in Platinum.
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 23:38:40
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bitman
So which is it really? Will Sonar not even launch or go into demo mode and just not save?
"This means you can’t save or export projects, however anything you saved up to that point will still open and play in the demo."
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bitman
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 23:48:00
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Anderton
bitman
So which is it really? Will Sonar not even launch or go into demo mode and just not save?
"This means you can’t save or export projects, however anything you saved up to that point will still open and play in the demo."
No Craig, you must misunderstand my question. There is a discrepancy between what is documented in the cakewalk website and what Seth said about the effects of not paying all your "dues". Which is it? A. will it refruse to launch at all -or- B. Just refuse to save / export as the demos always have. :Ron
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/16 23:48:50
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Earwax
I don't understand why you don't understand that knowing what fixes and improvements have been made to the core product would be important to users.
And yeah, I did read everything Jsaras typed.
With X3, after the program was released it took 10 days before a bug fix list was published. The typical pattern is release - find a few major bugs - issue a patch immediately thereafter - consolidate the bug fixes in the original version with the ones in the immediate update so there aren't two versions floating around separated by only a few days. If no major bugs are discovered I don't know how that would impact publishing the list, but it would also represent a miracle 
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 00:06:13
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bitman
Anderton
bitman
So which is it really? Will Sonar not even launch or go into demo mode and just not save?
"This means you can’t save or export projects, however anything you saved up to that point will still open and play in the demo."
No Craig, you must misunderstand my question. There is a discrepancy between what is documented in the cakewalk website and what Seth said about the effects of not paying all your "dues".
Which is it?
A. will it refruse to launch at all
-or-
B. Just refuse to save / export as the demos always have.
:Ron
Can you give me a link? That needs to be changed. The FAQ on the web site under the membership section says the same thing as Seth - it reverts to demo mode, so you can launch and play back - just not save and export.
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bitman
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 00:24:55
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Anderton
bitman
Anderton
bitman
So which is it really? Will Sonar not even launch or go into demo mode and just not save?
"This means you can’t save or export projects, however anything you saved up to that point will still open and play in the demo."
No Craig, you must misunderstand my question. There is a discrepancy between what is documented in the cakewalk website and what Seth said about the effects of not paying all your "dues".
Which is it?
A. will it refruse to launch at all
-or-
B. Just refuse to save / export as the demos always have.
:Ron
Can you give me a link? That needs to be changed. The FAQ on the web site under the membership section says the same thing as Seth - it reverts to demo mode, so you can launch and play back - just not save and export.
I did in my OP: https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Membership Seth said: Users that only buy one month won't be able to use SONAR after 30 days.
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 00:55:33
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Everything I've seen says that it reverts to demo mode. The answers in the FAQ were proofed and vetted over a period of several days. I would take what it says over Seth writing a quick reply in a forum.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 01:02:57
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bitman
Seth said: Users that only buy one month won't be able to use SONAR after 30 days.
As I understand it, you can think of the monthly installments as a financing plan. The product stays turned on as long as you are current on your installments, but deactivates itself (drops back into demo mode) if you don't complete the 12 payments. That seems to imply the machine will need to maintain an Internet connection, although maybe they have a monthly manual refresh procedure to handle that. Is the question the difference between not being able to run the program at all versus being able to run in demo mode? What difference does that make? If it drops into demo mode, you can't really use it for any productive work.
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 01:04:12
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You do not need an always-on connection.
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bitman
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 01:09:47
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Anderton
Everything I've seen says that it reverts to demo mode. The answers in the FAQ were proofed and vetted over a period of several days. I would take what it says over Seth writing a quick reply in a forum.
It's obviously very important to me and continued development. Seth has always been accurate in his dealings with me when I was permitted to test as a 3rd party dev. I guess I'll wait and see what really happens in a month. Somebody may speak from experience then. I will need to test against platinum so a 49.00 outlay could be wasted in a months time. As I said earlier, I can dev against it just fine in demo mode. :Ron
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 01:17:09
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cparmerlee
Is the question the difference between not being able to run the program at all versus being able to run in demo mode? What difference does that make? If it drops into demo mode, you can't really use it for any productive work.
I disagree. Being able to play back a file could be very important. One of the reasons I adopted Ableton Live for live performance way back when was because the demo mode could play back files. So if the airlines crushed my computer, I could still run to Best Buy, get a laptop, download the Ableton Live demo, pull out my USB stick, and do a performance. BTW I always mention using Ableton Live for live performance but that's not 100% of the story. With the Gibson HD-6X hex digital guitar, I use SONAR as a host for VST effects. I just don't use it to run any sequences.
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TomHelvey
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 02:21:41
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Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
You are 100% correct. In the past we would make fixes and improvements for 6-8 months or so then shift over to a new version. Now we'll be regularly making improvements but also adding new features. And as a bonus, working on less features at a time will help improve the quality of an already great product. A lot of people also have mentioned that releasing products sooner somehow implies they are not ready or are in beta. That couldn't be further from the truth. The big difference now is once they are ready and tested, we can release them immediately. No holding back.
Are guys doing full regression and integration testing for every new feature? Done done? If so, that's impressive. The last large software project I worked on, someone would add a new feature that broke something that wasn't tested every day in a seemingly unrelated area of the code and it wouldn't get caught until QA had the time to focus exclusively on integration testing.
System: i7-6900, 64Gb, AMI X99 Carbon Pro Gaming, AMD Radeon HD 7700, Win 10 Pro PCIe: UAD Octo USB: MOTU midi express 128, OB-6 Module, Akai MPK-249, Moog SUB 37, Antelope Orion 32 HD, Softube Console 1, iLok, eLicenser DAW: Cubase Pro, Ableton Live, Sonar Platinum Plugins: Waves, UAD, Xfer, Lennar Digital, u-he, Reveal Sound, Spectrasonics, SoundToys, VPS, Blue Cat, iZotope, NI, Valhalla, Lexicon, etc. https://soundcloud.com/thomas-helvey
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Earwax
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 03:29:26
(permalink)
Anderton
Earwax
I don't understand why you don't understand that knowing what fixes and improvements have been made to the core product would be important to users.
And yeah, I did read everything Jsaras typed.
With X3, after the program was released it took 10 days before a bug fix list was published. The typical pattern is release - find a few major bugs - issue a patch immediately thereafter - consolidate the bug fixes in the original version with the ones in the immediate update so there aren't two versions floating around separated by only a few days. If no major bugs are discovered I don't know how that would impact publishing the list, but it would also represent a miracle
Craig, thanks for responding with a positive attempt to address my concerns. Your response highlights why my questions addressed not only bug fixes, but core product improvements. I've got to think that when any software developer redesigns a product, it is done with the intent of improving the way the new version handles core functions that it shared with the old one. Otherwise, what's the point in spending time and energy on a new version? Of course, with a new version (and new content and features) will inevitably come - new bugs! I'm obviously not asking Cakewalk to publish a list of bugs that exist in the new version (unless, of course, they can). I'm asking them to address improvements made to core functions shared between the old and new versions of the software. I mean, c'mon! They've got to know what they improved! Right?? It is generally a company's major sales technique for anything "new and improved" to tell the public...well...what is new and improved!! I got the new. What's the improved?
Pain - the absence of things hoped for, the evidence of catastrophes unforeseen.
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Anderton
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 04:08:25
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Earwax
I'm obviously not asking Cakewalk to publish a list of bugs that exist in the new version (unless, of course, they can). I'm asking them to address improvements made to core functions shared between the old and new versions of the software. I mean, c'mon! They've got to know what they improved! Right?? It is generally a company's major sales technique for anything "new and improved" to tell the public...well...what is new and improved!! I got the new. What's the improved?
The link was to a bug fix list for X3/X3a and X3b, so it covered the ones from X2 to X3. Presumably the one for Platinum will include the ones from X3 to Platinum. It seems one bug that mattered to me is you can now bounce with MIDI FX in real time as well as fast bounce mode. Also... I CAN PASTE BUS AUTOMATION FROM ONE BUS TO ANOTHER! FROM A BUS TO A TRACK! FROM A TRACK TO A BUS!! I guess someone was listening to Stickman Actually it seems like automation has a bunch of clean-ups. Maybe that happened in the process of doing Mix Recall.
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RSMCGUITAR
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 07:24:47
(permalink)
Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
When a new version comes out, we pull the old. This way customers get the latest version. And from now on, when any customer purchases, they will always get the latest version. That includes retail as well. So gone are the days where you buy an old version mistakenly only to come home and see there's something new out there. Or buying a product and then seeing a new version come out the next week. You are always up to date in our model.
I just bought x3 at the beginning of January... I wish someone had informed me. 
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Kylotan
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 07:29:18
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Agreed with Earwax - I appreciate that the blurb up at http://www.cakewalk.com/sonar is about the flashy new features and upgrades to reel people in, but for those of us already reeled in and flapping about on the boat (to stretch the analogy somewhat) it would be great to see a change-log of the fixes that have happened between X3e and whatever is released in a few days' time.
Sonar Platinum (Newburyport) / Win 8.1 64bit / Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Absynth / Kontakt / Play / Superior Drummer 2 / ESP LTD guitar / etc Twilight's Embrace - gothic/death metal | Other works - instrumental/soundtracks
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TabSel
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 08:17:41
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Anderton
TabSel
If X3 ever was so successful as you said Craig, why change? Why discontinue the success, have happy loyal customers and build upon and grow your good reputation and gain new customers by that, In contrast to upsetting loyal und scare potential new customers?
Don't get it...
If you had a really successful album, wouldn't you want your next album to be even better? Be more adventurous? Reach out in new directions? Take some chances? Gain a wider audience?
"He not busy being born is busy dying." - Bob Dylan
(P.S. The number of scared customers seems to be in a minority. Multiple identities created by one troll don't count as multiple people.)
I would not offer a promise to do an even better album and charge upfront on a monthly subscription... Craig, we differ in views and opinions, it's not you who might convince me by words to spend my money, it's cakewalk, who might convince by delivering. Don't see everything I say as negative. I am neutral. Neither do I spend money, nor have cakewalk delivered and proven that it's worth to be a member. Let it be. We will see.
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watercourse
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 09:11:26
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I have a question regarding ProChannel modules. I apologize if this was already asked and answered. I searched the thread and wasn't able to find my specific question. I currently have X3 Producer and am considering switching to the new Professional version (not Platinum). I understand that any separately purchased PC modules will show up in Professional, but what about PC modules included with X3 Producer that are not purchased separately and also not included in the default Professional version? I'm specifically referring to Breverb Sonar, PC76, PC4k bus compressor, Console Emulator, Tape Emulator and Tape Saturation. Since I 'own' these from X3 Producer, will they still be available to me if I switch to Professional? And, if I do get access to these modules within Professional, what is required to activate them? Does X3 need to be installed on the machine or does activation happen through the command center, etc.?
Thanks in advance!
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Copiague
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Re: Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership
2015/01/17 12:06:37
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I have a few questions:
1. I have Sonar X3 and I have purchased the full versions of Addictive Drums 2, TH2, Melodyne, etc. Will the installation of Platinum let me bypass the installation of the "lite" versions of software I already own?
2. AD2 Producer comes with 3 AdPaks, MidiPaks and Kitpieces. Can I just select the 3 add-ons and not install AD2 with Sonar?
3. I went to purchase the pre-sale "Pay Up Front" option and I noticed there was no option to get the boxed discs as there have been with past versions. Is that not an option with the new membership?
4. When I went to check out in the Cakewalk Store, my credit card info was already there. I don't want my credit card info stored on the site. How do I delete it after making the "Pay Up Front" purchase?
Thank You.
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