LockedList of capabilities that have been removed in X1...

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jsg
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/26 15:23:16 (permalink)
Here's one which has been the dealbreaker for me:

In the staff view, the instrument pane on the right side of screen has always been linked to the active track. This function was probably the major reason the track pane was implemented in the first place:  to allow the musician to change active tracks without having to go back to the track view (by the way, this has never been implemented in the event list, you cannot change active tracks in that view).  In X1, this feature has been removed, I am not sure whether by mistake or by design.  This was the last and final bug that led me to remove X1 from my DAW and continue using Sonar 7.   Those that don't read music or don't appreciate the power of music notation to develop subtle and complex ideas won't care about this, perhaps that's the majority of Cakewalk users and perhaps this is why Cakewalk doesn't prioritize this, perhaps they never will.    I like the new interface of X1, I don't mind having to learn a few new keystrokes to get a job done.  But removing highly useful functionality???   Releasing software that is so buggy (back in December) that hardly anyone could use it????     No thanks.  This is not progress, this is regression...

And no, X1c does not address this...(at least that is what Cakewalk told me)

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Bub
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/26 15:37:33 (permalink)
bitflipper

The list of truly lost functionality is indeed very short - but only if, as John T suggests, we not count functionality that's still there but is merely less convenient to use.

I would counter that making something less convenient can sometimes qualify as "lost functionality" -  if it's so severe that someone would prefer to use another application rather than making do with the deprecated (but still present) functionality.
+1
My own peeve is automation editing. Sure, I can still do it in X1. In fact, some things are easier and quicker in X1. But it's so inconvenient for the kind of editing I do ...
One of the things I find very annoying in X1 is the Smart Tool. It's a great idea, it's there to make things quicker, but why do we have to re-open it if we right click on the wrong tool? It feels like a bug when it happens. You should be able to right click all day long once you open the Smart Tool and browse through the tools, then it should close when you left click on one, or left click on the star.



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#32
yorolpal
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/26 15:52:18 (permalink)
John T


I mean, there's nothing stopping someone starting their own "List of any generalised gripes across the board" thread. It may sound like I'm being snarky here, I'm really not. I believe in the cakewalk community, and I think if everyone really tries hard, there could one day be a thread that stays on topic, AND isn't just people copy pasting in the same thing they posted yesterday, the day before, the day before that, and will post again tomorrow and the day after.

Gee John, you are starting to sound sort of like the Martin Luther King of the forum:  "I may not get there with you...but I see a day when every thread...every post...is judged by it's content and character and not by the "colors" which may be missing from X1".  Seriously tho, ol pal, don't you think that your constant and unrelenting rejoinders to all the constant, "tiresome" complaints is just as (if not more so)...well...tiresome?
 
 

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#33
gmp
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/26 16:15:03 (permalink)
Since I don't read all the threads, I hope all the complainers will chime in in this thread, so we can at least see how many things were lost going from 8.5 to X1. Repetition is good as long as it's not in the same thread. There are many like me that haven't thoroughly explored X1 siimply because of show stoppers. There may be other lost features that I'm not aware of that would impact me.

I would like to know if there are other show stoppers. I know there were complaints about ProChannel changing settings when Sonar is closed and then reopened. that's one is a huge show stopper bug that would prevent me from using ProChannel.

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#34
vintagevibe
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/26 19:12:21 (permalink)
gothic.angel


John T


Actually, thinking about it, perhaps the repetitive nature of these threads is indicative of something. Perhaps the list of "lost" stuff is really small.




Hi John T,


...and yes, for the same reasons, the list might be relatively small, as I think nobody wants to completely "erase" X1 at all, 
but just asking for that bunch of features, felt by many as needed (see customization, in particular...), to be restored, instead.... 

It's not a huge list, in my view, nevertheless it counts......


Exactly.  I'm a big fan of the X1 concept but many of Cakewalk's choices have been really bad ideas.
#35
jbow
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/26 20:43:20 (permalink)
No tuner?? Well, that tears it. You mean I am going to have to use my Korg DT-7 ?? I would never use anything else. I mean really...

I justdon't know.. sometimes I just don't know.  You know what I would like to see?? I would like to see a button to completely randomize a screenset, completely randomly, different every time unless accidentally randomly the same. Sometimes when stuck or bored a random screenset might spark something, sort of like a different tuning. I think that would be a good feature, it would make up for not having a tuner... at least to me because I don't care if there is a tuner and the colors are fine to me. I like X1

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#36
gothic.angel
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 03:49:51 (permalink)
vintagevibe


gothic.angel


John T


Actually, thinking about it, perhaps the repetitive nature of these threads is indicative of something. Perhaps the list of "lost" stuff is really small.




Hi John T,


...and yes, for the same reasons, the list might be relatively small, as I think nobody wants to completely "erase" X1 at all, 
but just asking for that bunch of features, felt by many as needed (see customization, in particular...), to be restored, instead.... 

It's not a huge list, in my view, nevertheless it counts......


Exactly.  I'm a big fan of the X1 concept but many of Cakewalk's choices have been really bad ideas.





...best summary... 



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#37
John T
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 04:00:35 (permalink)
bitflipper


The list of truly lost functionality is indeed very short - but only if, as John T suggests, we not count functionality that's still there but is merely less convenient to use.

I would counter that making something less convenient can sometimes qualify as "lost functionality" -  if it's so severe that someone would prefer to use another application rather than making do with the deprecated (but still present) functionality.

My own peeve is automation editing. Sure, I can still do it in X1. In fact, some things are easier and quicker in X1. But it's so inconvenient for the kind of editing I do, it constitutes a showstopper for me. That, I think, qualifies as "lost" functionality.
Well, this is kind of my point. It isn't lost functionality. It's just not.

I'm not just trying to be awkward here. I genuinely think that more accurate use of language would lead to more fruitful discussions, which would lead to more meaningful feature requests, which would lead to a better product. Bending the meaning of words so far doesn't really get us there, I don't think.



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gothic.angel
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 04:14:42 (permalink)
My personal list of lost "customization" and "workflow system" capabilities: 


1) Control Bar old dear flexibility, as the one in X1 is, despite its larger size, is in many cases, unusable: 
Its "Modules" must be customizable, and all visible/usable at once
  on screens of ANY size/resolution... 

2) Features now moved to those old-fashioned multi-level menus should be taken BACK to their places, set to specific tools/buttons to be placeable, at will, on above mentioned Control Bar "modules"... 

3) There are features removed from the Track Headers, now available only within the Inspector. They should be also placed, possibly as an option, at their original place...  

4) GUI's colors must be fully customizable, and dark skins are highly
  requested (also proved by Panup's Mods success...).... 

5) the SONAR logo... 
Sure, not that urgent, but "identiity" is what makes anything recognizable...  


THANKS for attention...



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#39
backwoods
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 04:17:30 (permalink)
"I'm not just trying to be awkward here. I genuinely think that more accurate use of language would lead to more fruitful discussions, which would lead to more meaningful feature requests, which would lead to a better product. Bending the meaning of words so far doesn't really get us there, I don't think." 


With submission, I respectfully object.


As the physicist Feynman said "Don't listen to what I say, listen to what I mean". What bitflipper wrote made sense to me. 
#40
John T
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 04:27:12 (permalink)
Look... He picked an example of functionality that still exists, and called it "lost functionality". This is just plain incorrect.

Now, sure, I know what he means. And what he means is kind of reasonable. From a subjective point of view, sure, it makes sense.

But that kind of thing doesn't help the signal to noise ratio at all. Presumably, if there is a point to participating in these threads at all (far from certain, that, I'll grant) then surely  it's to dig into the detail a bit.

Conflating a personal preference with a lost function leads us down the path to yet another whinge-fest and away from getting anywhere useful. Not saying bitfipper is a whinger, he's not at all. But this thread is essentially already bunk. There are almost no "lost functions and capabilities" mentioned in it at all.

For anyone who complains that Cakewalk don't use the forums as a source of development guidance, well, there's your answer as to why not right there. There's scant effort on the part of the forum members to describe what they want with any coherency. How could you use it for pointers?
post edited by John T - 2011/08/27 04:28:18

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#41
SteveStrummerUK
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 04:34:40 (permalink)
 
Just to play devil's advocate here...
 
Seeing as this is the "most successful version of SONAR ever", and many old hands have jumped ship, it's logical to assume that X1 has brought Cakewalk a lot of new customers.
 
If they revert back to 8xx type menus and layout etc for X2, wouldn't that be a kick in the nuts for all the new X1 users, to whom the current functionality/layout is the only one they know?

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#42
gothic.angel
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 05:19:30 (permalink)
SteveStrummerUK


 
Just to play devil's advocate here...
 
Seeing as this is the "most successful version of SONAR ever", and many old hands have jumped ship, it's logical to assume that X1 has brought Cakewalk a lot of new customers.
 
If they revert back to 8xx type menus and layout etc for X2, wouldn't that be a kick in the nuts for all the new X1 users, to whom the current functionality/layout is the only one they know?




Hi SteveStrummer...


I think "reverting back" is not the real point... most of all, is "customization capabilities" being asked for here, which would not mean to change the overall X1 environment and its goodies at all, but just get more personalization possibilities back, which was one of the strength that made SONAR somehow different from the crowd...... that's it....




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#43
FastBikerBoy
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 07:46:42 (permalink)
gothic.angel


My personal list of lost "customization" and "workflow system" capabilities: 


1) Control Bar old dear flexibility, as the one in X1 is, despite its larger size, is in many cases, unusable: 
Its "Modules" must be customizable, and all visible/usable at once
on screens of ANY size/resolution... 


I've lost count of the number of posts I've read on here from people thinking of upgrading that haven't - most of the time based on much of the mis-information broadcast by a vocal minority. I realise that this is a personal list but in the interest of accuracy, the control bar isn't 'unusable' by any stretch of the imagination. You may not like it, it may be bigger than the tiddly icons in previous versions, it could be better designed, etc. etc.  but it is usable - for those willing to work with it anyway. To inflate a claim otherwise only weakens your argument.


2) Features now moved to those old-fashioned multi-level menus should be taken BACK to their places, set to specific tools/buttons to be placeable, at will, on above mentioned Control Bar "modules"... 


This is something I see complained about that doesn't make any sense to me. Why would I want options that relate to the PRV visible anywhere other than the PRV. I think many of the options also need key bindings available. A return to the 'old' way isn't the way to go. The good news as far as I'm concerned is I doubt very much whether CW will go backwards. I hope not anyway.


3) There are features removed from the Track Headers, now available only within the Inspector. They should be also placed, possibly as an option, at their original place...  

That I can agree with but it's still not lost functionality. When I go abroad and hire a car, I don't complain to the hire company that it's impossible to steer the car just 'cos someone's moved the steering wheel to the left.

4) GUI's colors must be fully customizable, and dark skins are highly
requested (also proved by Panup's Mods success...).... 

Agreed but again a preference not a 'lost function'. Could all those that can't produce a piece of music or perform another musical function 'cos SOnar is the wrong colour please post here.........

5) the SONAR logo... 
Sure, not that urgent, but "identiity" is what makes anything recognizable...  



THANKS for attention...




All IMHO of course.........
#44
John T
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:10:22 (permalink)
FastBikerBoy

To inflate a claim otherwise only weakens your argument.

This is my entire point, put far more succinctly than I managed.

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#45
lfm
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:13:05 (permalink)
FastBikerBoy





3) There are features removed from the Track Headers, now available only within the Inspector. They should be also placed, possibly as an option, at their original place...  

That I can agree with but it's still not lost functionality. When I go abroad and hire a car, I don't complain to the hire company that it's impossible to steer the car just 'cos someone's moved the steering wheel to the left.

4) GUI's colors must be fully customizable, and dark skins are highly
requested (also proved by Panup's Mods success...).... 

Agreed but again a preference not a 'lost function'. Could all those that can't produce a piece of music or perform another musical function 'cos SOnar is the wrong colour please post here.........



If things are moved out from track headers and was conveniently accessible without opening inspector it's a blow to usability.

And of top of that they cluttered inspector view with an extra column of info you did not ask for(like Master). If you narrow inspector to leave that out, it's right back once opening any of the tabs at top of inspector and you have to narrow it down again.

These are things you do hundreds of times through lifetime of a project.

When upgrading to S8.5 I spent one whole evening fixing up colors to at least make toolbars readable to the eye. Colors between toolbar and dimmed tools were not readable and eyes were not comfortable and disturbed by this. So customization is not just looks - it's very much usability too.

I think too much have been left to programmers - not users perspektive.
#46
John T
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:14:54 (permalink)
Again, though, you're not talking about lost functionality. You're talking about patterns of usage.

I hope I'm not coming across as pedantic here, I do think the distinction is a significant one.

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trimph1
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:19:45 (permalink)
I still think full customization would solve a lot of these issues of rhetorical importance....

The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate.

Bushpianos
#48
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:24:59 (permalink)
trimph1


I still think full customization would solve a lot of these issues of rhetorical importance....


+lots
#49
The Maillard Reaction
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:28:06 (permalink)
"I hope I'm not coming across as pedantic here,"


Thoroughly.


HTH.


#50
John T
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:29:31 (permalink)
Heh, I think the levels of over-heated rhetoric in these forums are not at all within the reach of the developers' influence.

I'm telling you, come 2013, there'll be long threads complaining that the "customise everything" menu is called up by the wrong key binding. I'd bet my life on it.

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John T
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:29:52 (permalink)
Mike, please go and die in a fire.

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FastBikerBoy
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:36:27 (permalink)
My own peeve is automation editing. Sure, I can still do it in X1. In fact, some things are easier and quicker in X1. But it's so inconvenient for the kind of editing I do, it constitutes a showstopper for me. That, I think, qualifies as "lost" functionality.

IMHO the envelope editing is far superior in X1. The real fly in the ointment is that there is no tooltip pop-up on mouse over ghosted data indicating the data type. If that were implimented I can't think of a quicker way of editing large numbers of envelopes on tracks that ensures editing only the envelope I want edited.

Shift-click is the key.

But relative to the thread title, it's not a lost function.......
#53
John T
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:37:01 (permalink)
Looking back at the OP, dunno if anyone has mentioned this, but:

vintagevibe


3) Inability to drag strips in the console view

You can do this. Hold down ALT while dragging the control strip. It's easy to think it's not working, if you';ve accidentally clicked part of the control strip that has another function for ALT, eg, you've clicked near the icon, which opens a file box to look for images. I've just got in the habit of dragging from near the top.

post edited by John T - 2011/08/27 08:38:08

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John T
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:39:10 (permalink)
Would it be mischievous to start a list of "capabilities  that have been lost by Sonar users"?

1/ Ability to RTFM.

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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:39:17 (permalink)
John T


Mike, please go and die in a fire.


Why would I do that?





Have a nice day John-T.

best regards,
mike


#56
John T
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:43:30 (permalink)
Anyway, what's the tally so far? As I read it, Vintagevibe has got two genuinely missing things in his first post, and JSG has one on this page.



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#57
The Maillard Reaction
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 08:45:35 (permalink)

Thanks again John-T for all the community building you are doing here at the forum.



Oh by the by,        the Polarity switch and the Stereo Interleave buttons are gone.




#58
FastBikerBoy
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 09:02:41 (permalink)
Oh by the by,        the Polarity switch and the Stereo Interleave buttons are gone.

Are they? I've got them in my version.
#59
The Maillard Reaction
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Re:List of capabilities that have been removed in X1... 2011/08/27 09:06:02 (permalink)

:-)


all the best,
mike


#60
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