Rus W
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/13 13:42:12
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^ Here's the thing with that:
How does one define "learning no theory?" Yes, if you only play the popular scales, but you have to remember that it's where everybody from Beethoven and Mozart to all those Youtube sensations now started. What's the first song learned on piano? Chopsticks!
That song helps one to grasp - scales, intervals, note durations, rhythms, patterns, and a few other things not discussed.
So, it's unfair to say that one has learned nothing if all he/she can play is Chopsticks or Happy Birthday! Both ofwhich can be played on virtually every tonal instrument - even the rhythmic (non-tonal) ones.
I do agree with you there, but again, performers just want to play as thinking about what they're playing hinders them. It's not necessarily because they think it's not important.
Pointing out what is played to help the performer grasp it is one thing - not to mention what instrument you're playing; however, why waste your time thinking where you should go when you should already know - provided you've practice ad nauseum?
Btw, how many of us have said that "we don't need math" - especially not the heavy-duty type (Trig/Calc) - or something as easy as Algebra; yet, don't realize we use it more than we think?
The example with my sister. She plays guitar and piano, but she's basically a performer and not a composer. Well, okay, she is, but she comes to me asking about progressions - regarding the sound and placement within songs she's written! Obviously, there are different tastes, textures and colors between us regarding this, but we seem to compliment each well!
However, she is now taking piano lessons to grasp chords progressions - especially since she knows how I color things. I'm not sure how far along she is during the lessons or how far she plans to go; however, I still should expect the occasional "What is this?" when she sees A7b9b11 or any other "foreign" chord.
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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jamesyoyo
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/13 15:39:14
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I had six months of guitar lessons when I was 13. That's it.
I find when I need some inspiration I just go and learn something new.
For example: the Line 6 Guitar Port is a great way to get exposed to as well as learn new styles.
I wrote complete songs (masterpieces? ;) ) just off of some new trick I learned, which of course I had already heard in countless other songs, but provided me with the creative direction.
Another way I learn is to buy new stuff: getting some real orchestral software, learning how to incorporate articulations, provides whole new avenues of inspiration.
I often wonder where I would be if my guitar teacher (a jazz head) wasn't so demanding about the third. More great rock songs/riffs were written without a third, which never made much sense to me until later in life.
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StevenMikel
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/13 17:06:48
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I started teaching myself guitar at 16 with no prior musical experience other than listening to the radio and records and cassette tapes.I learned the notes of the fretboard,chords,and scales from a poster and a few books.When I was 20 I went to college to study music and classical guitar.I think learning the scales,modes and some theory helped my creativity.Once I got a basic understanding of theory combined with knowing scales and modes,I could hear(in my head) what my options were as to where I could go with a musical idea.Sometimes I follow the rules and sometimes I don't.Knowing the rules can help you know what rules to break to achieve whatever it is you hear in your head or feel. I think people that don't try to learn theory develope their own theory without realising it,they take what they know or don't and,make it work.If they learn that certian notes sound good over certian chords,they remember that the next time the hear or use those chords and notes,thats very basic music theory. I'm not currently in a band but,I play guitar all of the time.I noodle while I wach my sons play video games or while I'm waching tv.I don't think about what I'm playing,I just play.If I play something that I like and want to turn into a song and get stuck,the theory helps. Know all of the music theory in the world doesn't mean anything without an imagination.Having a great imagination and not knowing or wanting to know any music theory is very limiting.Sometimes when you know the rules,you have to forget the rules to express yourself.
post edited by StevenMikel - 2011/12/16 02:12:18
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offnote
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/13 17:11:42
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Rain
geeare1
I don't personally think knowledge, whether it applies to music or anything else, would hinder someone.
Not in performance. I still think it can affect creativity as you can effectively become much more of a critic or become self-conscious. It's like someone who's listened to nothing but the Ramones and the Sex-Pistols. Coming up w/ something they consider original will likely be much easier for them than for someone who's listened to just about everything he could put his hands on. Whatever you hear always reminds you of this or that.
exactly . I have personally composed more songs before I joined the classical music school. Besides look at those thousands and thousands of people graduating music schools every year and what? nothing happens, no meaningful results for 99% of them...
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Philip
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 07:15:56
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+1 All Its the same with great painters and faux artists. Vincent Van Gogh doubtless received 'some instruction' before he gleefully went out to become the most valuable and treasured oil-painter on the planet ... though he never sold a painting. His *great teacher* may have been his own neurotic soul before he killed himself. IMHO, your/my desperate words and opinions, preferably a bit neurotic, will always out-way (out-weigh) 'lust for knowledge' when it comes to composing and performing eternal art and music. As far as pleasing today's temporal paradigms ... I honestly can't see much formal education in those either (as many of you just stated). Now I'm off to listen to more of those UAD instructional videos ... to make sense of these new toys ... hahaha! (EDIT: This is absolutely not a Van-Gothic-Van-Gogh invocation to go out and murder oneself: Other equivalent impressionists (like Renoir and Monet) ... did not horse-play themselves into sudden death ... yet composed/performed/produced awesome treasures, IMHO)
post edited by Philip - 2011/12/14 07:24:52
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Rus W
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 08:46:10
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offnote
Rain
geeare1
I don't personally think knowledge, whether it applies to music or anything else, would hinder someone.
Not in performance. I still think it can affect creativity as you can effectively become much more of a critic or become self-conscious. It's like someone who's listened to nothing but the Ramones and the Sex-Pistols. Coming up w/ something they consider original will likely be much easier for them than for someone who's listened to just about everything he could put his hands on. Whatever you hear always reminds you of this or that.
exactly . I have personally composed more songs before I joined the classical music school.
Besides look at those thousands and thousands of people graduating music schools every year and
what? nothing happens, no meaningful results for 99% of them...
@ offnote: But what about the 1% who did? Pianists today like Alicia Keys, Amy Lee, John Legend! These three definitely had classical training, but they don't play classical music; they might, but out of all the songs we hear from them or when the question is asked in interviews, the only one who mentions classical music (composers/compositions) is Amy Lee. Of course, her group is a mixture of classical and gothic rock. (So far, the only classical piece they've done is Mozart's Lacrymosa) Those three made it big, but showbiz is all about luck! You may have the heart, drive, and all the connections in the world, but those 1% who did make it, saw an unfathomable amount of rejection. This is not to say stop trudging along; however, even the ones who are in the business - tell you how hard it is to get the "Mic-On" career (and to be honest, with shows like AI and TV, it's not that much easier. If anything, they do show you how tough it is out there even if you get the unanimous vote!) @ Rain: I have to somewhat disagree because that person who only listened to the Ramones are Sex Pistols will more than likely end up emulating them - even if the piece is totally original. Artists talk about their influences all the time and 99% of what is heard, you can hear the influence! When folks say: "I hear Mariah and Whitney in Christina or Madonna in Britney or Lady Gaga!" (and that isn't a stretch), upon listening to you hear those influences as have the former artist have their influences whether it's vocally or musically. I think this is where the misconception of ripping off or stealing comes from and not just with music. I love arranging music and could do it all day, but that would be ripping off or stealing because arranging requires an established piece of music since those terms or thrown around and incorrectly might I add! Legalities is not the point! As I've said before, sometimes it takes re-doing or even copying something established before an idea sparks or if you have an idea, but not sure how to implement it, copying helps. Yet, when that happens, "she ripped off or stole from ..." (I guess I ripped off Tchaikovsky, Chaplin among a few others) For instance: Already Gone (KC) and Tattoo (JS) sound similar to Halo + Irreplaceable (Beyoncè). I doubt they "stole" anything from her though. It may just be that Tattoo and Irreplaceable were produced by the same team - this is all but too common. This is way different then someone who clearly samples something having it interpolate - (Cheers w/ a piece of I'm With You - Rihanna/Avril Lavigne) you probably need to get permission first. I also disagree in that - odds are that The Ramones and Sex Pistols drew from something as well as that person could do something completely original, but hear what he thought was original upon hearing something else. The Ice, Ice Baby issue! (I saw the THS episode). now, I know that nowadays everybody is trying to sue everybody for the smallest thing (especially when those whom've remained silent until something they claim they did first makes it huge). However, Ice was getting or was sued because of four notes in a bass line that sounded like one in another song. He even hummed that line's rhythm to which of course they compared to the song doing the "suing." Did they sound similar, sure; however, I do believe there was the slightest difference in there somewhere. Now, would you say he intentionally wanted to steal that song or run with an idea he thought was original? Just imagine how limited creativity would be because no one would want to create anything for fear of being sued! Don't get me wrong, I do understand and agree whatever one plays, it's been played before; however, that shouldn't stop you from playing it (of course, if you're ignorant/intolerant of the legalities, that is a whole new can or worms you rather not open up) Yet, we still would be severely limited. Which why it bugs me when some get all hot-and-bothered claiming that things are too obvious (but that is another story altogether as well) Gear is right, but again, set rules are established which aspiring composer/arrangers feel like they don't need to follow! After reading an earlier post about how stressful it is to "compose correctly," if all pieces were written as such, they would lose their own identity. And throw in writing for a particular instrument. While there are rules as well, they only obtain to the confines of the instrument - not what's outside of it! For instance: In an arrangement I did, I go from the bottom of the instrument to the middle of it. However, based on its confines (and I do know its limits), I have a strong feeling I will be told that I can't or am not supposed to do that; however, I will work around that to have it done although I'm not adverse to compromising. One guess as to what this instrument is! I delve way too deep! The point is: though there are rules and guidelines in music - that should NOT restrict one's creativity - even if there's a ton of compromising in practice! Why else do they call it Music Theory?
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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jamesyoyo
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 08:50:31
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Rus W
For instance:
Already Gone (KC) and Tattoo (JS) sound similar to Halo + Irreplaceable (Beyoncè). I doubt they "stole" anything from her though. It may just be that Tattoo and Irreplaceable were produced by the same team - this is all but too common. This is way different then someone who clearly samples something having it interpolate - (Cheers w/ a piece of I'm With You - Rihanna/Avril Lavigne) you probably need to get permission first.
IIRC, a songwriter wrote a track, submitted it, and both KC and Beyonce wrote a song to the same track. Its not that they sound the same: they are the same!
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Rus W
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 10:04:37
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jamesyoyo
Rus W
For instance:
Already Gone (KC) and Tattoo (JS) sound similar to Halo + Irreplaceable (Beyoncè). I doubt they "stole" anything from her though. It may just be that Tattoo and Irreplaceable were produced by the same team - this is all but too common. This is way different then someone who clearly samples something having it interpolate - (Cheers w/ a piece of I'm With You - Rihanna/Avril Lavigne) you probably need to get permission first.
IIRC, a songwriter wrote a track, submitted it, and both KC and Beyonce wrote a song to the same track. Its not that they sound the same: they are the same!
That isn't all that uncommon either, but the point is, is it stealing or ripping off - especially if they KC and Beyoncè were okay with having done that. Do you think the same happened with Tattoo and Irreplaceable? Usually, "label mates" (though I'm certain those two are not), are okay with that. I do wonder why that is a bad thing though as you can sing either song to the same track and get a difference though the tracks are the same! AG wouldn't sound like it does if Beyoncè sang it - like with Kelly and Halo. I guess the real question is how did they end up writing to the same track, but only they can answer that I suppose. I understand that they're valid terms, but they've gotten thrown around so much that they've lost their meaning.
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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LpMike75
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 11:50:18
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offnote
Rain
geeare1
I don't personally think knowledge, whether it applies to music or anything else, would hinder someone.
Not in performance. I still think it can affect creativity as you can effectively become much more of a critic or become self-conscious. It's like someone who's listened to nothing but the Ramones and the Sex-Pistols. Coming up w/ something they consider original will likely be much easier for them than for someone who's listened to just about everything he could put his hands on. Whatever you hear always reminds you of this or that.
exactly . I have personally composed more songs before I joined the classical music school.
Besides look at those thousands and thousands of people graduating music schools every year and
what? nothing happens, no meaningful results for 99% of them...
What is a "meaningful result"? Not everyone wants to be a rock/pop star. If you are gauging 'meaningful result' by lack of pop stars having formal music training than yes. If you want to be a pop/rap star you are probably not going to search out a classical conservatory. Different goals. To say someone who graduated from 4 years of music school and went on to teach music didn't get any 'meaningful results' is insulting, quite frankly. If you think 99% of people that graduate music school do not do anything with music afterwards I beg to differ on that %. I wonder what % of garage guitar hackers playing 5 note scales in E minor go on to do anything meaningful in music? Is it more than 99% Offnote, you stated you composed more music before school than after, did you take composition in school, and somehow you felt less creative after being taught formal composition techniques? Honest question. If someone is gauging pop/rap stars with 'meaningful results' in musicianship, I will point out the obvious, how many pop/rap stars write their own material (outside of some lyrics)? Then who performs the music behind them? Some pop singers are very talented but others are just "ok" I would not consider many pop stars superior songwriters or musicians, they are performers. I do not consider K$isha having ay 'meaningful result' as a musician. She makes lots of money performing and recording. One might propose if you want to be a pop star, learn to sing mostly in key and mostly in time....then work on getting to know the right people. One not need to practice an instrument, or worry about writing music or learning music theory. One also need not go to music school to learn music theory. There is soooo much information on the internet, books etc that school is a great bonus but not required. I learned on my own Harmony, Melody, Rhythm, reading and writing music before I took any music courses. I always find it interesting when a musician claims 'music is their life' but they have no interest in actually learning anything besides the same tired licks they play over and over. Occasionally playing a new chord progression. (I have several friends like this)
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Rus W
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 15:10:01
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+ 1 million with everything LP said!
You brought up an interesting point about Ke$ha (though it's not just her)
Musician is also another term that is thrown around; however, I believe that it's been replaced with another term: instrumentalist. Although, those two words are interchangeable given whom one is around. Like Harper/ist. Both mean harp player; however, depending on where you are and whom you're around, you will hear both terms.
"Classical" performers (before the definition/word changed) would refer to themselves as musicians while contemporaries may call themselves instrumentalists. Not much difference. Much like the definition of music having been changed.
And that is another thing I take issue with! Why do most people think the artists have to do everything to result in not having noses turned up at them - just so they'll be noticed? It's great if they can do it all - doesn't mean they should!
What you stated is the most common gripe!
Anyway, you are correct when you say "being self taught" is a very popular route and one learns other things that you may never learn formally or at least you'll get to that point faster!
You know, it's bad when a student out-teaches the teacher! (My Music Theory and Math teachers can attest to this!) I can't tell you how many times I was told to be quiet when I knew going another route would work. (You know, you can do this or that also - with math and "Shhh! They don't need to know that. You'll just confuse them!" - Music Theory. Although I do get the "Wow! I did not know that!" and this is from the teachers!)
Bsck to the point.
However, there are still general rules and guidelines placed - except no authority figure saying to follow them. Yet, doing so is advised!
Though I've had formal training, messing around with such programs at home (with the things I gathered from lessons), helped me get better at what I've been doing for awhile now. (Composing) Though there's still alot I've got to learn (Mixing/Production); however, I don't have to dive into this part of it although I'm experimenting with this as well.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, with or without any or all the knowledge in the world about these things, may not get me where I desire to be - and that is off-note is referring to. I definitely agree that meaningless is a very bad choice of wording; however, I can't say I totally disagree with that statement as harsh as it sounds.
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 15:23:12
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Philip
How much do you artists (composers, performers, and singers) feel the 'study' of music helps/hinders you, your vibe, your art. (Perhaps there is no dogmantic right or wrong answer, but I'm certain you have pondered this important subject.)
Please specify the types of study (if any) you prefer for yourself. For example:
"Vocal coaching" or "Site reading", or "Playing by ear" ... "helps for my music the most" ... "but, now, I realize a PhD in music theory" would help me the most (hahaha!)
You may give examples of other artists you respect as well. Maybe cite examples of other artist's education and success to support your opinions. But, your opinion will probably weigh heavier in my mind/heart.
(Myself, I'm pretty blissful just studying the cheap basics, studying artists I love, collaborating with others, and such ... but have not had much 'interest' in formal education ... worrying that time might be much better spent on 'life')
Thanks in advance for all your thoughts and opinions (great or small)!
I've been trying to ignore this post (no offence, I was hung over yesterday when I saw this thread and I am again today) that is what a music education gives you a hangover. And not just alcohol, my eduaction cost me over 50,000 dollars none of which I have to pay back until I get a job, and that is the great conundrum, I can't get a job. I have done 3 Music Industry (Technical Production) certificates, a Certificate 3 in Music, I have a Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production) and a Master of Music Technology, still no jobs but 6 peice's of the most expensive toilet paper. Ok enough of the negative invective, look if you don't have it, all a music education will do is make you a craftsman and there are enough bad craftsman in the world we need more artisans. I learnt nothing from these courses, maybe a few error's that I had collected on the way were corrected and I was shown the basics of mastering, this is the most important thing I was shown, from there I have become a very good mastering engineer, IMHO but I taught myself everything (I'm auto didactic) ok these courses did give me some sign posts, like readings on frequency's of instruments, important for mixing and I got a couple extra readings like that which were handy but I still had to figure it all out for myself. The biggest problem with a music education is the teacher's the old saying is so true if you can't, you teach, this is not to say I had all bad teachers some were truly excellent and were goood at what they did. Why?? you would have a music education is if you want the big bucks, if I could get some experience and a PHD, I could earn anywhere from 80,000 dollars to 150,000 dollars a year being a professor and even though I am a creative soul, I would sell that for a $90,000 year job. Here is the kicker, if you go down the path of education you are either doing it for the love (then I don't recomend), your doing it to become a professor (I recomend, just remember you need a GPA of at least 6, I was 5.5 so I am not good enough and unless your PHD proposal is about how babies sing to the whales in their mothers womb and you can prove the whales can hear it, you will be very low on the order of merit, this is how uni's rank you and your proposal, so even if you get in you are a second class citizen) this is because the stupid veck's (clockwork orange speak) that run the uni's don't realize the importance of music. Stupid, stupid little people, they discovered 35,000 year old bone flutes, how could music not be high up in the order of merit. Music is all around and then there are the sound waves that shake our bodies, music can heal, still down on the order of merit. So do I recomend getting a music education, yes, because even though I can't get work, all those little letters behind my name do get me respect and no not around here (ok sometimes and I have shot myself in the foot) but those little letters after your name get you respect in greater society and can open doors. You wanted opinions, well that is mine. I am grumpy, angry and frustrated but then again I am not a craftsmen, I am an artisan, so my monetary rewards will always be less than the craftsmen, I don't do what I do for that though, although if you are listening mr devil I am willing to sign. I am a satellite and I am one of the lucky few who can hear the heavens sing and I am even luckier, I can translate. Nobody's listening now though, I would get my John Thommas out to sell records but I don't think it would do anygood, if only I was born with norks and a map of Tasmania I would be a rich (what do we call Lady GaGa, a man or a woman) oh well if I had the right attributes I would be rich. There you go friend, Bah Humbug (yes I hate christmas too) Ben
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 15:30:18
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Oh I should say as well I play guitar, bass, lead and rhythm. I can program synths, and play them Linda Mccartney style, I can bash the piano John Lennon style, I can play ethnic flutes and whistles and recorder, I have even been know to pluck the mandolin. And I have at least a 4 octave voice, which put's me somewhere in the Freddie Mercury range.
I am also a composer and had my music on a number of comedy shows, if you look in the CH, there is a thread asking people about there sucsess and I have posted links to youtube and soundcloud with the songs that have been used.
Peace Ben
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 16:19:58
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I have encountered a very different situation. One where the educational environment is incredible and turns out great musicians. Every major city has a jazz degree performance course. One of the best ones if not the best one is in Perth right now at a place called WAAPA. (Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts) Great school right now. Very new and fresh and exciting, the vibe is amazing there right now and has some of the finest musicians in the world teaching there. In all areas too, music, acting, music theatre, dance. A lot of amazing drama teachers have left Nida for example and gone to Waapa. Now the Jazz course features all the the most amazing players around. All high level industry types that all have major recording and playing careers outside their degree teaching activities. I have heard the faculty play and it was like OMG! There is a great Jazz venue in Perth and there is a lot of playing after hours too. People from New York frequent the place as I heard some serious New York ensembles while I was there recently. I have witnessed the first years when they auditioned 3 years ago and how they sounded then. I have just sat through the final year recitals 3 years later recently and heard a most amazing transformation into deep, complex music that was played with heart and soul, huge amounts of technical skill with no mistakes and it sounded like they were all seasoned players that had 30 years or more experience. All from an average age of 20 years old or so. I witnessed the lovely rivalry that existed between the students too and they pushed each other to greater heights too not just the teachers. They all learned huge amounts of respect and how to treat each other and others with the finest behaviour. They have all developed as individuals too. Many of them have been snapped up including my son into world class jazz ensembles already destined for successful recording and live performance careers. None of those students would be where they are today without the intense high level education they were subjected to and the relentless desire from the tecahers to make them sound intense and serious and confident in their delivery. All the original writing was surpurb too showing high levels of compositional skills. There are world class keyboard and soundtrack composers there was well. The students get put through sound engineering skills and software programming. A lot of technology featured in the recitals too. All very exciting. Tell me that is not a fantatsic environment to hang about in for 3 years. I got to go to some fantastic private parties too where there were scores of these students getting up into ensembles and just playing some of the most exciting music I have heard in years. The best playing was always at the parties! In the recitals there was stacks of imagination and creativity combined with technical skill and knowledge. So there is a fine example of kick starting one's career in music. The creative and relentless for success students will make it and they will do it playing their own music to their own audience without doubt. They have hit the ground running. I believe you get out of any course what you put into it in terms of what you want to get out of it! Too many students go in wanting everything handed to them and that is not the way to go. You go into it hungry for knowledge and then you will find it at every turn. No course has no value, I don't believe it. If you think you can discover great heights musically without education you are wrong. You can only go so far and then you will reach a limit. Once you get the knowledge though you keep on going from there and it almost becomes limitless the more you look into it.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2011/12/14 16:39:16
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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offnote
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 17:14:58
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LpMike75
offnote
Rain
geeare1
I don't personally think knowledge, whether it applies to music or anything else, would hinder someone.
Not in performance. I still think it can affect creativity as you can effectively become much more of a critic or become self-conscious. It's like someone who's listened to nothing but the Ramones and the Sex-Pistols. Coming up w/ something they consider original will likely be much easier for them than for someone who's listened to just about everything he could put his hands on. Whatever you hear always reminds you of this or that.
exactly . I have personally composed more songs before I joined the classical music school.
Besides look at those thousands and thousands of people graduating music schools every year and
what? nothing happens, no meaningful results for 99% of them...
What is a "meaningful result"? Not everyone wants to be a rock/pop star. If you are gauging 'meaningful result' by lack of pop stars having formal music training than yes. If you want to be a pop/rap star you are probably not going to search out a classical conservatory. Different goals. To say someone who graduated from 4 years of music school and went on to teach music didn't get any 'meaningful results' is insulting, quite frankly. meaningful results means creating remarkable music out of the air. Doesn't matter pop/rock/jazz or classic. For instance Björn Ulvaeus and Benny Andersson from ABBA are really great real musicians in oppose to conservatory classical music graduates who can only play from scores and never composed anything. Genre doesn't matter. You're confusing some terms, graduates who become teachers are not musicians they're teachers, big difference. Real musician of course can be a teacher as well but this is usually rare.
post edited by offnote - 2011/12/14 17:16:30
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 17:35:03
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Jeff Evans
I have encountered a very different situation. One where the educational environment is incredible and turns out great musicians. Every major city has a jazz degree performance course. One of the best ones if not the best one is in Perth right now at a place called WAAPA. (Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts) Great school right now. Very new and fresh and exciting, the vibe is amazing there right now and has some of the finest musicians in the world teaching there. In all areas too, music, acting, music theatre, dance. A lot of amazing drama teachers have left Nida for example and gone to Waapa.
Now the Jazz course features all the the most amazing players around. All high level industry types that all have major recording and playing careers outside their degree teaching activities. I have heard the faculty play and it was like OMG! There is a great Jazz venue in Perth and there is a lot of playing after hours too. People from New York frequent the place as I heard some serious New York ensembles while I was there recently.
I have witnessed the first years when they auditioned 3 years ago and how they sounded then. I have just sat through the final year recitals 3 years later recently and heard a most amazing transformation into deep, complex music that was played with heart and soul, huge amounts of technical skill with no mistakes and it sounded like they were all seasoned players that had 30 years or more experience. All from an average age of 20 years old or so. I witnessed the lovely rivalry that existed between the students too and they pushed each other to greater heights too not just the teachers. They all learned huge amounts of respect and how to treat each other and others with the finest behaviour. They have all developed as individuals too. Many of them have been snapped up including my son into world class jazz ensembles already destined for successful recording and live performance careers.
None of those students would be where they are today without the intense high level education they were subjected to and the relentless desire from the tecahers to make them sound intense and serious and confident in their delivery. All the original writing was surpurb too showing high levels of compositional skills. There are world class keyboard and soundtrack composers there was well. The students get put through sound engineering skills and software programming. A lot of technology featured in the recitals too. All very exciting. Tell me that is not a fantatsic environment to hang about in for 3 years. I got to go to some fantastic private parties too where there were scores of these students getting up into ensembles and just playing some of the most exciting music I have heard in years. The best playing was always at the parties!
In the recitals there was stacks of imagination and creativity combined with technical skill and knowledge. So there is a fine example of kick starting one's career in music. The creative and relentless for success students will make it and they will do it playing their own music to their own audience without doubt. They have hit the ground running.
I believe you get out of any course what you put into it in terms of what you want to get out of it! Too many students go in wanting everything handed to them and that is not the way to go. You go into it hungry for knowledge and then you will find it at every turn. No course has no value, I don't believe it.
If you think you can discover great heights musically without education you are wrong. You can only go so far and then you will reach a limit. Once you get the knowledge though you keep on going from there and it almost becomes limitless the more you look into it.
Hey Jeff, what about me, I am absolutely unemployable, I have sent so many resume's off, that I almost cry, and go what is the point, just another NO. Yes I have shot myself in the foot by being everybody's favorite trouble maker but I have a higher qualifcation than you and I am still in the poor and hungry stage. I am not bitter but I am sad, pissed off and bemused by the fact I have done all this work am brilliant at what I do (IMHO) and I could die like Van Gough, or any of the others who have died when the world over looks them. I am hanging on by a thin thread because I am bored out of my mind and frustrated beyond belife, my only solace is whisky at the moment. I don't know where I am going with this, all I know, Jeff is right but he is also wrong. It just depends on what you want to do and what you want to be. I think you get what I mean Jeff!! Peace Ben
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offnote
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 17:54:10
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Rus W
offnote
Rain
geeare1
I don't personally think knowledge, whether it applies to music or anything else, would hinder someone.
Not in performance. I still think it can affect creativity as you can effectively become much more of a critic or become self-conscious. It's like someone who's listened to nothing but the Ramones and the Sex-Pistols. Coming up w/ something they consider original will likely be much easier for them than for someone who's listened to just about everything he could put his hands on. Whatever you hear always reminds you of this or that.
exactly . I have personally composed more songs before I joined the classical music school.
Besides look at those thousands and thousands of people graduating music schools every year and
what? nothing happens, no meaningful results for 99% of them...
@ offnote: But what about the 1% who did? Pianists today like Alicia Keys, Amy Lee, John Legend! These three definitely had classical training, but they don't play classical music;
what about them??? they just prove they would become what they had regardless of formal training which is exactly my point. Rus W The point is: though there are rules and guidelines in music - that should NOT restrict one's creativity - even if there's a ton of compromising in practice! Why else do they call it Music Theory?
well, rules and guidelines does restrict once creativity and that's the fact when you compare great artist with and without formal training. Statistics will tell you the truth. Formal training should concentrate on one thing and one thing only - the techniques. Once again - rules and guidelines were created for untalented people who cannot "create" a damn thing without them but still have no honesty to admit that and quit.
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Rus W
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 18:17:39
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offnote
LpMike75
offnote
Rain
geeare1
I don't personally think knowledge, whether it applies to music or anything else, would hinder someone.
Not in performance. I still think it can affect creativity as you can effectively become much more of a critic or become self-conscious. It's like someone who's listened to nothing but the Ramones and the Sex-Pistols. Coming up w/ something they consider original will likely be much easier for them than for someone who's listened to just about everything he could put his hands on. Whatever you hear always reminds you of this or that.
exactly . I have personally composed more songs before I joined the classical music school.
Besides look at those thousands and thousands of people graduating music schools every year and
what? nothing happens, no meaningful results for 99% of them...
What is a "meaningful result"? Not everyone wants to be a rock/pop star. If you are gauging 'meaningful result' by lack of pop stars having formal music training than yes. If you want to be a pop/rap star you are probably not going to search out a classical conservatory. Different goals. To say someone who graduated from 4 years of music school and went on to teach music didn't get any 'meaningful results' is insulting, quite frankly.
meaningful results means creating remarkable music out of the air. Doesn't matter pop/rock/jazz or classic. For instance Björn Ulvaeus and Benny Andersson from ABBA are really great real musicians in oppose to conservatory classical music graduates who can only play from scores and never composed anything. Genre doesn't matter. You're confusing some terms, graduates who become teachers are not musicians they're teachers, big difference. Real musician of course can be a teacher as well but this is usually rare.
So, now that your definition is clear, I must tell you that that statement is very, very unfair painting the broadest of broad strokes if I've ever seen one! I have said before that not all performers compose nor do all composers perform. However, instrumentalists/musicians/performers - it's not that black and white. Take my sister for example. She plays and writes (lyrics), but also taking piano lessons which may help her to compose - and not necessary writing while playing an instrument which is something most singer-songwriters do. (and she does this, too) They will hear something in their heads and compose it on an instrument - be a guitar or piano - if they've never put a pen to manuscript paper, clicked the mouse or pressed a note on their hardware controller. She brought her husband over while I had a piece playing on my computer and she told me that he didn't believe that I wrote/produced music - jokingly saying that's she's the "plug in and play type" (and she uses software, too) IOW, she told him that I'm deeper in this field with what I do than she is! And guess what? She comes to me for advice and still might though currently taking piano lessons will help her understand a bit about my writing style - which is much more "complicated" than hers. That mainly due to the instrument differences or no difference at all (piano vs. guitar; piano vs. piano); however, which of these chords do you think she's more familiar with (and by that, I don't mean having seen me spell them out): Bb (and perhaps BbMaj7) vs. Bb7#5b9b11 - the latter would have her spaz, don't you think? The misconception is just because the performer doesn't say: "I just played this chord which has these notes, played this way!" doesn't mean that he or she is clueless to the fact (although he or she may be). Before she started taking piano lessons - even before she got her first guitar chord book or even if she in fact had it or several - now and again, she'd still ask me what a chord is or what progressions work best ("nothing to fancy," of course). All of these things she'll probably learn taking piano lessons, but she needn't spit them out verbatum while performing as the audience doesn't care what chords you use as long as it sounds good to them. However, as the composer, you want to know what it is you've used depending on what you wish to convey. Blossoms is an arrangement of a particular piece which the original work appears to be lively and bright; the arrangement, however, is somewhat darker even with its occasional "bright spots." I know this given the instrumentation. I've only got part of it up, but you'll have to hear the entire piece to really grasp the timbre! What do you think the chords for even part of this song look like? Alas, how would I know about these things if I didn't get formal training - despite "self-teaching" more often? As I said, I had the same exact thought you did, but a little theory does go a long way when performing. Improvisation is a term I've seen alot in this thread and theory is used when that is done even if it's never realized! However, it is recommended that one does get as much as possible whether it be through formal or informal teaching! A bit of both doesn't hurt either!
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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offnote
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 18:58:04
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Rus W I don't condemn theory completely, it does help with arranging, writing down music etc but this is secondary thing! You cannot compose based on theory unless your are a phony. My first tune when I was a kid and I didn't know a thing about dominants, subs and tonic. when I analysed it after years I have found indeed I used diminished substitution to dominant seven chord to resolve to tonic but it was dictated from my head not from the book I read, do you get the differences? Regarding Bb (and perhaps BbMaj7) vs. Bb7#5b9b11 - and here you go the theory, the notation would have her (and me) spaz but not when you'd play her this sounds and let her hear the different colors! No theory needed, just pair of (hi-fi) ears.
post edited by offnote - 2011/12/15 14:44:54
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Rus W
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 19:14:42
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offnote
Rus W
offnote
Rain
geeare1
I don't personally think knowledge, whether it applies to music or anything else, would hinder someone.
Not in performance. I still think it can affect creativity as you can effectively become much more of a critic or become self-conscious. It's like someone who's listened to nothing but the Ramones and the Sex-Pistols. Coming up w/ something they consider original will likely be much easier for them than for someone who's listened to just about everything he could put his hands on. Whatever you hear always reminds you of this or that.
exactly . I have personally composed more songs before I joined the classical music school.
Besides look at those thousands and thousands of people graduating music schools every year and
what? nothing happens, no meaningful results for 99% of them...
@ offnote: But what about the 1% who did? Pianists today like Alicia Keys, Amy Lee, John Legend! These three definitely had classical training, but they don't play classical music;
what about them??? they just prove they would become what they had regardless of formal training which is exactly my point.
Rus W
The point is: though there are rules and guidelines in music - that should NOT restrict one's creativity - even if there's a ton of compromising in practice! Why else do they call it Music Theory?
well, rules and guidelines does restrict once creativity and that's the fact when you compare great artist with and without formal training. Statistics will tell you the truth. Formal training should concentrate on one thing and one thing only - the techniques. Once again - rules and guidelines were created for untalented people who cannot "create" a damn thing without them but still have no honesty to admit that and quit.
Here's why: The people will feel restricted allow themselves to feel that way! Don't misinterpret this as: Telling your teacher that he or she is wrong! I mentioned many times with all the tips I saw for Harp writing! I'll admit, I felt disheartened at first; however, I realized that those "rules" only cover what that instrument was initally designed for. Classical music! However, I watched a documentary about a famous manufacturer (Lyon & Healy) and near the end of the video, the harpist who narrated showed us "a side of the harp we've never seen before." She played repetoire outside of the harp's primary domain! And I've seen dozens of videos where performers played non-classical harp music. I can show you some videos if you like. Also, what you aren't grasping that technique goes hand-in-hand with whatever one is doing! Sure, I can shoot a basketball, but with a stern technique, it has a better chance of going through the basket than just flinging it up there a zillion times - hoping for that one time when it does. Although if flinging is your honed technique and works for you ... I've written pieces outside of its domain as well, but I'm not surprised given that the "classical" rules say whether regarding the composition, facets of the instrument itself or durability of the performer - that my pieces would be rejected. So, what to do? If it's impossible for one harp, write that same piece for multiple harps! ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLNj0ZHyHSQ note - I've seen this played on just one) Another technique they "reject" is repeated notes or chords (stacked + rolled/broken) - especially if they're tightly packed played at fairly fast tempos with short durations. The reason is completely valid (tension/mechanism) - however, this is followed with the argument that many you attempt to write think of it as a piano! They aren't wrong, but again, what about when it's used in other genres? It's not a piano nor should it be written for or played like one, but I've seen performers go to town as if it was - specifically in jazz music (Yes, they do fit there as well - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9goA1ZhElg) But see, this illustrates my point as I am letting these rules discourage and I should not do that; however, I don't need to be ignorant of these rules either! The second link is proof of this! the "classical" rules probably told him no, but look at him go and I'm certain if he knows about the classical rules, he hasn't ignored them either. He's only performing, but I doubt if he saw the sheet music would say that what he did, couldn't be done. If so, he just proved the rules wrong! So, yeah, I totally understand what you're saying. I just hope you get what I'm saying! Don't try to see what isn't there or you'll become blind to what is!
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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Rus W
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/14 22:39:55
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offnote
Rus W
I don't think ww're that much apart after all. I don't condemn theory completely, it does help with arranging, writing down music etc but this is secondary thing! You cannot compose based on theory unless your are a phony. My first tune when I was a kid and I didn't know a thing about dominants, subs and tonic. when I analysed it after years I have found indeed I used diminished substitution to dominant seven chord to resolve to tonic but it was dictated from my head not from the book I read, do you get the differences?
Regarding Bb (and perhaps BbMaj7) vs. Bb7#5b9b11 - and here you go the theory, the notation would have her (and me) spaz but not when you'd play her this sounds and let her hear the different colors! No theory needed, just pair of (hi-fi) ears.
You're right! It is not needed; however, I take it you play by ear as do I. Yet, if I were to show you what it actually looked like - especially if you nor her have only heard the chord ... This is one of the disadvantages as it becomes a guessing game - even if one picks up pretty fast, but first - I will spell out the latter chord. Bb7 (9, 11) = Bb, D, F, Ab (C), (E) #5b9b11 = Bb, D, F#, Ab, Cb, Eb The bolded notes answer the question: How you get from there to here? If you didn't know a lick of theory, I'd sound ridiculous! I do realize I would have to speak at her speed though which I would be willing to do. A vocalist with a pianist. Say she starts singing (usually off-key) - the pianist will try to find that key or note related to that key she is in though somebody may still be off (and it does happen, believe me!) Eventually, they end up meeting in the same place. However, if either or both people knew even a little theory, there would be no need to find "a needle in a haystack" so to speak. The vocalist knowing his/her limits, will say: Eb or C, then start to sing, but if the pianist, understands what she means his or her hands will just fall on all the right notes! (This is definitely certain if the song sung is familiar whether or not either or both add their own flavor) You've heard songs (keys) initiated by playing a single note on the harmonica (or some other instrument) - that is usually a perfect 5th above or perfect fourth below said key; however, I guess those who join in know some theory as well as they sing the song in the correct key. Happy Birthday (harmonica plays a G) What key are we singing in? C! Edel Weiss? (harp plays an Eb) What key do I sing in? Both examples illustrate when it comes to solving math problems mentally. I can tell you that 25 x 45 = 1125 instantly whereas someone else would do the pencil & paper route; however, when you get into the logic and reasoning of it ... Yet, that is the part that most people don't think about as they get the answer and walk off. This is the general idea pertaining to performers, but they have to know something regarding composition since they are composing sans the manuscript paper or computer. One has to understand the other as this is a two-way street. Composer (composition)-Performer (Instrument) and vice versa. However, if neither knows about one or the other - well, let's not go there! All in all, I definitely agree with what you're saying, but it does help to know what you used in case somebody asks you. I like your Blossoms tune! What chords did you use? I used these and those. Why? What were you wanting to convey? I wanted this piece to be all about contrasting between the two different timbres - er, colors - while changing the character and mood as well. Oh, I see and I can definitely grasp the timbre, character and mood you were going for. It's darker than what I'm familiar with. You really put alot of thought into this! I really enjoy it! I think others will, too! Regarding the differences: I do see them.This is common - especially when arranging; however, like you said, you didn't know that is what you used until you "researched" it. "I played this series of notes! OMG! I just played the Phrygian scale! I'm ready to conquer Carnegie Hall now!" (hyperbole if you hadn't noticed). While being surprised is great, frequent surprises lose their luster. If you say Wow! for 500 little things, then when you really do something that should in fact WOW you (and maybe millions of others) you will not be! KWIM? When you mentioned just playing without knowing what you were playing which is common when starting out. (who has never banged clusters of notes on a piano?). Of course, as you got older, you realize that wasn't too pleasing; however, you begin to learn that that style of playing does work - especially if you apply personification! If the piano sounds twinkly-like, it's happy! However, the lower you go in pitch, you begin to see that feeling changing to the point where it wants to stomp the crap out of somebody. (Perhaps the Viola made it mad! How only the piano knows!) You can apply such to any instrument! Try it! It's fun! Yet, you start to learn such things an intervals (The first song being Chopsticks) Master that and you're on your way. As with any other song used as a starting point for any instrument. (Btw, M2. m3, M6, P8, M6, P4, M2, m3, M6, P8 in case you forgot) And teaching doesn't having to take place in public in a room with 20 or so people. It could happen at your house (if you want all 20+ people there, that is you!) To be honest, one should never say: "So and so doesn't need something." because that person could be wrong. Just because you got by without much, doesn't mean I will and I may I need less than you do (I don't). I mean, if one sees building a 20-story skyscraper, don't discourage him to say you should only build it 10-stories! Ten stories is probably much better, but he'll probably realize that at some point and be there to catch him when he does, please!
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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Philip
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 00:20:37
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@ Ben: I feel like you do ... and spiritually --hahahah! I'm rich (as a puny podiatrist ... who gets a little blood-money) but bankrupt with my creative inspirations ... trying to 'get better' with music (and God) ... as my clock runs out :( ... hahaha! And "of studying books there is no end" (of the wearisome vanity) You apparently both 'feel and know ' the +'s and -'s of music per se and have sold all you have for that 'pearl of great price'. I'll try to await your next song on songs forum ... when you're ready. @ Rus: Many composers are like you. You've probably studied as much as Ben, but Ben seems (currently) plain-down to earth, like Van Gogh in some ways. Of course, I don't have a UAD swedish accent and I attend an obscure country church (that's not on the map) to play adhoc hymn gigs. I refuse not to use a capo (AKA, I always use one) ... because I've seen country stars using 'em ... and I abhor much country music (accept when Herb or someone here 'composes' country music ... haahah!) I hope others respond to both Ben and Rus ... these 2 are scholars ... and have apparently have "been there and done that". @ Jeff: Jeff, I know you are a faithful producer and have 'created your own songs and demos'. Also, mixing engineers are artists and all ... but I was sort of hoping to empathise with neurotic-compuslive singers and guitarists ... their personal/painful opinions ... to accept or discard formal politics of music. But You or I being a producer ... would you really tell your songsters to get more formally equipped? What about Vocal coaching ... can it not be done by almost any informal musician.
post edited by Philip - 2011/12/15 00:35:12
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offnote
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 03:24:36
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Rus W
I like your Blossoms tune! What chords did you use? I used these and those. Why? What were you wanting to convey?
try to ask things like that a good painter or a cook...they will tell you "I don't know, what I use? a little bit of this and a little bit of that..." The point is they don't care what it's called what thy used, neither why they used. Artists don't talk about art they create. Little people analyse it and talk about it trying to understand the mind of great ones.
post edited by offnote - 2011/12/15 03:48:38
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Philip
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 03:41:28
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@Offnote: Hahahah!
Well said ... almost, IMHO. The problem is we all start as reduced people ... and our EQs, IQs, and/or EGOs get reduced oft as we get older. Maybe 'non-artist' would be a better word than 'loser', I dunno.
But yes, by hopeful definition: artists create. But they also create with inspiring theories in advance of their creations. Some of those theories require musical language and math. But yes! Artists create songs!
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Rus W
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 11:09:42
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offnote
Rus W
I like your Blossoms tune! What chords did you use? I used these and those. Why? What were you wanting to convey?
try to ask things like that a good painter or a cook...they will tell you "I don't know, what I use? a little bit of this and a little bit of that..."
The point is they don't care what it's called what thy used, neither why they used. Artists don't talk about art they create.
Little people analyse it and talk about it trying to understand the mind of great ones.
That again is another broad stroke which in reality is false; however, what you bolded is only because nobody asks them. Like the person who asked about Blossoms! Of course, if no one ask them about how they did something of course, they won't answer the question. I watched a video where Gaga was being interviewed and I guess she wasn't asked similar, yet she responded as if she were because she was! So, using your argument, is she a "little person trying to make herself feel smart," (that seems to be your attitude). The painter/cook argument: Now, there are folks who just throw things together and call it something and composers to this, too. However, cooks, painters, composers all go by some kind of recipe whether it's their own or somebody else's. The "Chords/Instruments" question and other about color, mood and character are the same thing. I'm telling that lady who heard my song, how I prepared it and I must have prepared well enough for her to ask for the recipe! Now, she may try to make the same thing I did or take those same ingredients and make something on her own. It may actually be the same dish, but when I taste it, it may turn out to be better than mine. And having known many of the ingredients were from my recipe, I'd like to know what she did to spruce mine up or make it her own. Boasting has nothing to do with explaining something thoroughly. I wouldn't be surprised if she needed my assistance - despite having the recipe in front of her. As is there nothing wrong with the performer asking the composer about a piece his or she has written or the composer asking about it being performed. Talking on a level where the person understands what you did is one thing, but making them feel dumb, just to make yourself feel smart is something totally different and that is what your bolded statement is imply which is insulting! Not just to the person who's looking for the answers, but he person who's asking the questions.
post edited by Rus W - 2011/12/15 11:12:34
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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jamesyoyo
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 12:53:38
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No matter how you slice it, great songs are 10% inspiration, 10% innovation, and 80% perspiration. The 80% can be real easier if you have an education on how to hone the other 20%.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 14:13:25
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Let's say we have to compose something. It could be argued that there are two sources of inspiration. One is a natural form and just let's the idea generate or eminate from there, some mysterious place somewhere. (Subconscious mind actually, ideas come from there)
The other could be all your knowledge. Oh, we will compose in the key of D Major today and we have 7 scale chords available to us. Very restricting. Whereas the first place is limitless in its design.
It is possible however to use both. When I am writing I do not even think about theory. I either sit down at the piano and let ideas flow and see where they go etc. Lots of stuff happens by chance. If you let it then good things will often result. Another way for me is to let ideas flow into my mind and then I vocalise them into some sort of portable or studio recorder.
At the piano concept I have a stereo recording device going with a stereo mike sitting on the top. If its composing in front of the technolgy I can get ideas going and still let things take any direction or twist or turn etc..
Its after all the creative stuff I transfer the ideas into the DAW and then analyse it using the theory/ knowledge. That just locks it in so I know what key it might be in etc. All very useful. Also once you get into this mode you also have many other options available. eg I might have used 3 scale chords from two keys and created a melody using a certain rhythm. The thoery tells me there are 4 other scale chords. I might check them just to be sure and they will either not add anything to my original idea, so I don't use them. Or I might go, Oh, now there is a nice chord so I might expand the idea to incorporate it. Now my original idea has just got better. I might change the rhythm slightly because it may be approaching a known concept so one could try altering the original idea to be a bit closer to the known stronger concept. Wow all of a sudden the rhythm sounds better. Or a rhythm may be sounding too close to well known concepts (eg the standard rock beat!) I might try randomising a rhythm and see where the pieces land. Wow, a new abstract rhythm, I love it!. So now the composition takes a turn because of the new rhythm. Is that OK way to do it? Yes of course.
Ideas or creative flow first, use the knowledge second. Simple as that. If you don't have the knowledge you can still get the ideas down and use them. The ideas might be good or complex too. I did it for 5 years at the start before the knowledge came. But you miss out on all the later analysis/discovery and development stuff.
There is also nothing wrong with composing from a theory base. eg like take 3 scale chords from a key and put them into a progression and loop it. Then create a melody in an improvised fashion and just let melodic ideas flow. Anything wrong with that? Don't think so. In the end the listener may not know how and where the ideas came from.
In fact by the time you are at the stage of the music hitting the listener, then that all transcends how the ideas were even created in the first place. It is just right down to the ideas themselves and how good they are.
Some musicians even may not have ideas or a lot of knowledge and then I think you are restricted. Or you can lots of ideas and limited knowlede, way better and the one I would rather be stuck with. Or great ideas and lots of knowledge. Wow, use them both to maximum advantage. Killer, this one sounds great.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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offnote
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 14:38:49
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Rus U,
I don't have more time to waste for unreasonable arguments. I know I'm right from personal experience and from studying statistics as well as from common sense, if you don't get it by now you won't get it. Go to school and be another brick in the wall. Good luck.
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offnote
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 14:57:08
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jamesyoyo
No matter how you slice it, great songs are 10% inspiration, 10% innovation, and 80% perspiration. The 80% can be real easier if you have an education on how to hone the other 20%.
well, the problem is with that 20/80 ratio though. That 80% job can do 80% of people (or more) and the remaining 20% just the elite. Without them you have still nothing.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 15:25:55
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This might be a little off topic but Ben I feel your pain. Qualifications are good for getting well paid jobs but they wanted someone with years of industry experience, years of teaching experience and a Masters. I had the first two and was prepared to start the third. Quals can either help your income or have no effect on it.
You have got to make your studio work for you as I have done for a very long time now.
Read the SOS artcile '20 ways to create cash from your audio skills' (July 2007)
Living in a very small city in a very small island south of Australia is not the best option either. It may be nice down there but opportunities may not present themselves. I lived in Canberra for a long time and survived very well here before moving to Melbourne. There are many more opportunities here in Melbourne. I am composing, working here, teaching and doing other audio work here and there. It can work.
You have got to setup your studio so it can function and earn money effeciently.
Write library music and produce it well and get into the TAXI mentality and start sending them tracks as well. Royalty income can build up. You have got to be good though. That music you posted recently on Soundcloud of the remix is nowhere near what they want! Sorry, harsh but true.
If you were in Melbourne you could start writing a live show and rehearsing it. Then promote it and perform live. Not hard to get 200 or 300 people in a room here in Melbourne.
Think of all the CD's you can sell. The music has got to be good though!
You have got to want it and tell your subconscious mind every night and morning in a meditative state that you are succeeding and winning. And you are doing it the way you want to do it. Talking about the negative things in your last post is only sending the wrong info to your subconscious mind! Feel the excitement now of your success in the future. Then in time it will only happen.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)
2011/12/15 15:44:50
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Jeff Evans
This might be a little off topic but Ben I feel your pain. Qualifications are good for getting well paid jobs but they wanted someone with years of industry experience, years of teaching experience and a Masters. I had the first two and was prepared to start the third. Quals can either help your income or have no effect on it.
You have got to make your studio work for you as I have done for a very long time now.
Read the SOS artcile '20 ways to create cash from your audio skills' (July 2007)
Living in a very small city in a very small island south of Australia is not the best option either. It may be nice down there but opportunities may not present themselves. I lived in Canberra for a long time and survived very well here before moving to Melbourne. There are many more opportunities here in Melbourne. I am composing, working here, teaching and doing other audio work here and there. It can work.
You have got to setup your studio so it can function and earn money effeciently.
Write library music and produce it well and get into the TAXI mentality and start sending them tracks as well. Royalty income can build up. You have got to be good though. That music you posted recently on Soundcloud of the remix is nowhere near what they want! Sorry, harsh but true.
If you were in Melbourne you could start writing a live show and rehearsing it. Then promote it and perform live. Not hard to get 200 or 300 people in a room here in Melbourne.
Think of all the CD's you can sell. The music has got to be good though!
You have got to want it and tell your subconscious mind every night and morning in a meditative state that you are succeeding and winning. And you are doing it the way you want to do it. Talking about the negative things in your last post is only sending the wrong info to your subconscious mind! Feel the excitement now of your success in the future. Then in time it will only happen.
Were friends Jeff, so I can take the hard words but one, I would come back to Melbourne but I have no money and no support mechanisms, so setting myself up is pretty hard. What do you mean the track was no good? Is it no good full stop or not good for library music and what is library music?? I don't know how to meet the right people. If your saying the track is ****, then I might as well give up now. I write all types of music, I don't know what I am suppose to write. Ok I don't know what more to say, I was told by this stuffy old hag from Adelaide uni, I had to go back to the start and get a proper music degree, so I could prove I could compose, all this because I don't know how to build a machine that goes ping. Bah Hambug (Christmas is Cancelled) well it is for me!!! Ben
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