Musical Education? (Composers and Performers Please)

How much do you artists (composers, performers, and singers) feel the 'study' of music helps/hinders you, your vibe, your art.  (Perhaps there is no dogmantic right or wrong answer, but I'm certain you have pondered this important subject.)
 
Please specify the types of study (if any) you prefer for yourself.  For example:
 
"Vocal coaching" or "Site reading", or "Playing by ear" ... "helps for my music the most" ... "but, now, I realize a PhD in music theory" would help me the most (hahaha!)
 
You may give examples of other artists you respect as well. Maybe cite examples of other artist's education and success to support your opinions.  But, your opinion will probably weigh heavier in my mind/heart.
 
(Myself, I'm pretty blissful just studying the cheap basics, studying artists I love, collaborating with others, and such  ... but have not had much 'interest' in formal education ... worrying that time might be much better spent on 'life')
 
Thanks in advance for all your thoughts and opinions (great or small)!

Well, I should say 1st that I have yet to take any lessons for anything (excluding clarinet in the 3rd & 4th grades which I don't remember any of)  My ole man taught me how to tune a guitar and the 1st few basic open chords E,A,D,G,C.  I've learned by ear everything I know about guitar, bass (and I do play the bass like a bassist, not a guitarist on the bass), and drums.  I have dabled with keys though never for long enough to get really good at it.

  I play by feel and instinct and that is how I write too.  Are my leads lightening fast and technical?  No, not really but they work and they're catchy.  My best friend and I (and the other guitarist in my band) have been playing together off and on for about 20 years.  He played guitar in jazz band in school, and has always stedily taken lesson from a local guitar god who is a theory wiz.  Chad can ask the key and run the neck and sound cool doing it, but until he stops winging it I think it has a lot less feel than when it's thought out.  When he writes songs it seems to me he gets hung up on which chords he can go to (traditionally), whereas I am feeling the music and deciding where it SHOULD go, Not because some chart I memorized tells my where to go but because that's where the energy of the song at hand takes me.  Don't get me wrong I am not jumping out of key either but sometime the odd roll-over note in a riff might not be in the textbook key but it sounds good in the context of the song.

He is only in recent years starting to learn to relax and feel it, conversely I am planing to take some lessons myself this winter to make my playing a bit more well rounded. 

So, how's that for non-answer?  haha
 
Edit: I really gotta proof read before I hit enter...

Jeff Evans

The trick is though they told us you cannot do this and you can't do that but any rule can be broken of course. I was glad I had the 5 years of ear stuff and fiddling around first though and then getting the knowledge after that. What concerns me a bit now is these young people who go straight form school into a course like that and they are told they cannot do this and they can't do that so they never do it or try anything as a result. 

That's exactly what I was talking about above!

Great question as usual Philip. Being a guy that has done a little of everything, I would say a basic knowledge of theory is important to everyone. It's how you use what you learn that is important. It's like this...

Some of the greatest musicians of all time have put out some the coolest stuff and didn't have any formal training. Some of the greatest musicians of all time have put out the coolest stuff were extensively trained. Some were rough, unique and edgey, others were polished and "proper" so to speak.

The other side of the coin is this....all the theory in the world doesn't guarantee you can write a song. As much as I've heard hacks that should have learned a little theory first throw out tunes to the world....I've heard the same with schooled musicians that let the technical side of theory over-take them to where the feel and emotion was gone. So it's easy to fail using both methods to be honest. I think the key is to have a happy medium and without that happy medium, you're spinning your wheels. Here are a few instances...

A guy goes to music school. He learns all his scales, he can sight read...he "gets it" as far as how the aesthetics and technical aspect is in music. Yet, when he plays he relies on sheet music and may not have an ounce of creativity to write his own stuff. Ever see those concert musicians on TV? Most of them couldn't write a tune to save their lives. I was working on my last album in 2004. I needed a piano player. Someone that could make love to those ivories. So I contacted the greatest piano player I knew. A teacher, orchestra leader, shows all over the country...she's like one of those Chinese virtuoso's that can so anything you can think of on a piano or violin. She's been extraordinary since grammar school and I've known her since 3rd grade.

So I get her here thinking this is going to be an incredible experience. The first thing she asks is "where is the sheet music?" I say "well, there is none because the part hasn't been written yet. I was hoping we would experiment, I would bark out some chords to you and you would just come up with something?"

She looks at me with this horrifled look on her face and says "Danny, I can't do that...I need to see the music." I'm like "wait a minute....I can just call chords out to you and we experiment?" She says "I'm afraid not". Here's a girl that if I posted videos etc, you'd definitely agree with me that she is one of the best players you have ever seen and heard. However, she could not help me a little bit unless I had things scored for her. This blew me away and I was really let down. An isolated case perhaps? I don't know...it happened again when I brought in another one of those "concert musicians". No music...no help. So for these individuals....I would say their schooling in an original sense, failed them as they were no help to me regardless of their incredible skills.

Ok, here's another case. So when I was 4 years old, I started playing guitar tuned to an open chord. I had no idea what I was supposed to do, so I stuck with is and this is how I play to this day. If you handed me a standard tuned guitar, I could play it...but you'd wonder if I attempted to scam you if you have ever heard me play before. You'd think "ok, you play mediocre...but do some of that stuff I've heard you play in your songs" and I'd look ast you and shake my head. But as I was learning to play with my goofy tuning secret, I went to a teacher. And incredible teacher that at the time, charged $25 an hour for lessons when all the other teachers were charging $7-$10.

This guy knew everything you could ever want to learn about theory. Taught at colleges, the whole 9 yards. He goes to play and show me something...the first thing I notice is..."hmm, this guy doesn't sound very good at all. He knows all his chords and scales, but he's not a very good player to lead by example." He shows me a ton of scales etc, but not once does he show me how to use them. Think about that for a second. That's like me showing a martial arts technique and not showing you how and why you would use someting like this. I'm just showing you this because is looks cool....it's up to you to learn how to use it."

I'd be a pretty terrible teacher if I taught that way, don't you think? The same with learning music. In my tuning, an E for me is an E for everyone else. It just looks different. My scales are the same as everyone else's...they just look different. When I teach my students guitar (I have just 3 students now as that is all I have time for) they must learn the notes as well as use their ears. If I have to show them something that needs to be done in their standard tuning, I learn it in standard before they get here...which has helped me too because I never much bothered with it. But, when I show them something, I make it a point to show at least 3 ways they can use what I am teaching them. This to me is incredibly important or the theory is "just theory without a purpose" in my opinion.

Also speaking for myself....I personally think more theory in my case would make me dive into it too much. It is too easy to get into it and allow it to over-take you. You can become stale and robotic sounding if you don't allow a little feel factor to creep into the picture. Another thing that has hindered me with the theory I do know is...I can listen to something and know what my options are. I liked it better when I just about knew nothing because it allowed me to create in a manner that was like trying to find my way out of a maze. I enjoyed that challenge. It was great coming up with my own stuff that might not have been "standard procedure" that may have been a bit quirky or even a little off. But once you know what you're faced with, it's too easy to rely on box patterns to get you through.

Think of the guy playing guitar that learns the basic pentatonic scale. He's going to use that box pattern nearly verbatim for everything he plays until he can learn how to bend and use the notes in between. Some never learn that stuff and use that box pattern for everything until the day they die. You'll notice if you go back to when they didn't know that scale that though some of their playing was out of key and not correct...some of the ideas would be considered "unique" and pretty cool. Add theory into it without learning how to use that theory, it all sounds like verbatim scales the way they were introduced to the player.

The hardest thing for a musician to do in my opinion, is phrase correctly. You can know every riff and trick while being completely polished in your execution and still sound like a robot if you do not know how to phrase melodically or use the theory you know properly. This is the key in my opinion. Some theory guru's can do this....quite a few can't. *MOST* un-schooled players seem to do this well and innovate. It's rare our theory monsters innovate unless you go back to classical or jazz. Look at the blues guys we all know and love. Yes there is a theory there, but it's more a feel thing than relying on diminished scales, arpeggios or anything else. Our folk guys need chord theory...learning loads of scales won't help them write better songs. This was why I gravitated to metal. It gave me everything all in one style. Finger picking acoustics, blues, cool chords, distorted power chords, good melodies and phrasing, insane guitar tricks and scale usage, neo-classical/classical vibes and executions, tension points...it's just open season really.  

As far as where you are in your musical career Philip, I would say learn as many cool chords as you can on piano and guitar. Learn 2 new chords per week and try to see if you can use them somewhere. The sound of certain chords can inspire you just from the sound of those chords. Kinda like playing with a new keyboard or synth. You go through the sounds doodling on different patches etc...and you hit one that makes you go "wow" and you get all inspired to do something. The sounds of certain chords will do that too.

Next, learn all your notes. It's just the right thing to do. Especially on guitar. It helps to know every note on every string "just because". Scales are cool...but I don't think anyone needs to go ballistic here unless they want to be a teacher or a lead guitarist. I think every player should know the blues scale with accidentals, a major scale, a minor scale and the modes because they teach you how to move around and make the best use of your playing. Other than the above, I really do not feel anything more is needed for "the basic musician." Those things I mentioned will help with writing as well as providing you with "places to go" where at times right now, you may get stuck. The chord thing is more important than the scale thing for a writer. Think of your brain as a toolbox. The more chords and voicings you have in that tool box, the more options you can have for your writing.

However, going too deep into this stuff without learning how to use it....is pretty much a waste in my opinion and is only good for the knowledge part as well as the gymnastics and performance part to keep your skills up. I wouldn't be able to play lead guitar without the scales I know. If you don't need to play lead, you don't need the scales...but they can help you to keep yourself limber and can also allow you to come up with counter melodies. It all depends how you use this stuff....that's the key really. :)

-Danny

I've noticed that those that haven't sometimes wish they had- I've never or don't recall
anybody that has studied that wish they hadn't.
 
Many believe that those that study don't play be ear....wrong. At least thats been my
experiences with other musicians and myself.
 
The biggest issue is when two musicians want or need to communicate-- that's
hard when one of them doesn't know how. It may not have any effect on them other
than being harder to communicate but it can also have the worse effect of not being
able to play together. That depends solely on them whether or not music can be created-it 
has nothing to do with the knowledge or lack of knowledge about music. 
 
I believe one must do what they feel is right. What they are comfortable with.
What I would and will recommend is give it all a shot and find out what "works" or
feels right. It's sure worth the effort in my opinion.
edit with glasses on.

Danny you picked the wrong piano player and it is simple as that. I would have never have picked that sort of player. The best type of musician in that situaion is a great jazz musician. Jazz musicians are trained to improvise, your paino player could not improvise to save her life.

Jazz musicians do not have to sound the slightest bit jazzy either. A good jazz piano player can play in any style. I have recorded many jazz musicians playing over many styles including rock, metal, country, soundtracks for docos. etc etc it goes on. They can be controlled, you can tell them what you want, they can be moulded to do anything. They only have to hear the progression once and they have got it. They have fantastic ears.

A great jazz musician needs musical skills such as theory and huge knowledge to be a great jazz musician in the first place. This is a situation where training and knowledge really helps.

A great concept though is the combination of both sides if you can get it. My wife is a fully trained classical musican on violin and viola but she did the jazz degree with me as well. She can rip over any chord progression, no music, she can make it all up on the fly. It is jaw dropping to hear. Other violinists are dumbfounded as to how she does it. She can do it because she was trained to do it and she did the study. Very handy lady to have around if you need a great violin part. She can read anything too which is also handy and can save lots of time.

The funny thing is that when you learn jazz you learn all this stuff and then they tell us to let it all go and play from the heart. That is when the best music comes into play. If you are thinking about it then you are doing wrong. It should just flow. The idea is to connect the ideas in your head directly to your instrument without anything in between. You play horizontally through the chord changes not vertically. (eg scales) The knowledge comes into play at times. The more you have the nicer the music will be in some respects. They say Guthrie Govan is someone who is playing from his head directly to his hands. What do you think. You got admit he is awesome and very melodic too which is something Mike started in another thread.

formal training carries nothing but obstacles on your imagination.
I'm now in process of trying to forget what I learned at music school
when I was young.

The virtuoso vs hacker issues ... and the technician-vs-artist issues ... have been discussed on other threads.  I know you are all keenly sensitive to the neurotic mind games we succomb to in music.  In reality you and I just want to feed our inspiration to express ourselves more beautifully, iirc.

There seems much puffed up pride that comes with too much *European* knowledge, IMHO, ... so that many a 'joyful noise' can get stifled.

Awesome responses all!  ... Extremely well said!  I realize there are persons here that are able to assimilate alot of new stuff ... without being hindered in creating.  And you invariably know when to quit learning and to start singing.

Also, there are 'times and seasons' both for learning and for creating new art.  I realize its difficult for some of you established performers who are on-the-road, and too exhausted from work and life's distresses ... and/or feel it vexing to learn new genres, new theories and/or new techniques ... especially while you do gigs 'successfuly enough'.

Houndawg that is a very good post and it made me think of something else in relation to this. My original formal training is in electronics and I was an electronics engineer for 10 years before moving into music. I too have a deep love and interest in electronic music and synths and programming. My knowledge in electronics to this very day has made the passage so easy and clear for me in terms of synthesisres and software even now.

I can learn and program any instrument on the planet. Hardware or virtual. I just understand it. I wonder why that is. I can fix, repair and modify anything in my studio. I can also conceive circuits that don't exist yet and create and build things that allow me to do things I could not do before. I understand computers very well too. So there is a classic combination of electronics knowledge still being used to this very day in everything I do musically. So I got formal trainging in electronics and it has not hindered my imagination, it has blown it out to gigantic proportions.

Jeff Evans


formal training carries nothing but obstacles on your imagination.  Tell that to Chick Corea or Steely Dan. Hey, do you like Steely Dan? Do you think Donald Fagen and Walter Becker were born with that knowledge. Err No, they had to learn it. 

Err No - who said Corea is that good? Since years didn't produce anything remarkable. As I liked him in the beginning now cannot stand his playing
and this is not only my opinion. Next Steele Dan hm...one hit song artist??? no thank you. Those other two don't even know well to know what they did. The art world is something you don't learn it - you create it with what's in your head. You learn only techniques to to be able to express that.


Quite often people bring up well known names who attended one school or another to prove importance of the formal education
but that is very misleading and false argument. Do you think Keith Jarrett would ended up as truck driver if he didn't go to Berklee music school?
hell no, if you've got talent school is just another experience or help with technique nothing more.

After learning by hear, I went to study classical guitar for a couple of years. While I was progressing very quickly on the guitar, I didn't catch up as quickly on the theory. Not that I sucked or anything, but it just took more time.

For better or for worst, I then landed a gig in a traditional jazz band, with a bunch of old beatniks (I was like 18 or 19 and these guys were all in their late 50s). I left the classic stuff behind, and one of them beatniks sort of became a mentor, and taught me how to write my own charts "the proper way" - that is, just write down chords, and a few notes here and there for the theme.

I learned a lot from those old guys but, as a result, most of what I had learned in school I've forgotten because I didn't use it anymore. But it also gave me a better comprehension as to how music worked.

I have to mention (and a recent thread w/ a post by Danny reminded me of that)... When I started playing electric guitar, my first "hero" was Randy Rhoads (hence my interest for classical music). A couple of years later, Yngwie came out. Of course I was blown away at first, but I think my personal pride couldn't take that hit. I couldn't ever see myself playing anything like that, so I did like many others did, and rejected the whole "shredder' thing. But it was only me making excuses, really.

In recent years, I felt like I was getting nowhere on my instrument - being from the "play what you feel" school, it could only get me so far in terms of developing my skills. So I only picked up the guitar when I felt the song needed a part, but I really didn't have much fun playing.

So last spring, I did what I had forced myself to do in other domains in the last few years - I decided to face what I sucked at. Because doing what you're good at can only be funny for a while but it gets old.

I started looking for lessons on the web, downloaded one of Malmsteen's album and decided that, who cares? I'll never be able to play the whole Trilogy thing in one go, so what? I'm learning and having fun playing guitar again after all those years. And the coolest thing is that, as a songwriter, it opened new horizons. Not that I'm actually working on similar material, but it often gives me ideas for a twist in a melody or a different perspective on how to introduce a melody, etc.

On the other hand, this puts me in a situation where I really wished I had kept on studying the theory. I've recently started to hear music in my head on a whole different level, with instrumentation, arrangements and melodies, harmonies developed on a scale that I can hardly handle in terms of performance - and it's a pain. I'd really like to be able to grab a chart and just write it all down, instead of having to record it.

And as I'm getting older, I'm really starting to feel that I don't have unlimited amounts of time left, so I have to decide what I can spend time on. Much to my regret, getting back to musical theory doesn't seem to be in the cards. So yeah, I wish I had kept studying for a few years back then.

BA music education, though at this point in my life I'm not a teacher.  I find the more I know the more frozen I get.  It seems like writing was so much easier when I could write what sounded good to me and I didn't feel locked into the rules.  Going back to listen to what I wrote in high school, it kind of works, and some of it could stand some help (and most of it isn't exactly "good but rough" - it's just "rough"), but today I get stuck.  Writing a song is like pulling teeth out of unwilling donors with just my bare fingers.  Oh, I'm not using the dominant correctly, or it's minor but there's no raised 6th and 7th going up or whatever.  I have to find a way to clear all that nonsense out of my mind and just...create.  It's very hard for me, though for others it seems so easy.  Not feeling sorry for myself or anything.  Well, maybe a *little* envious.  

derFunkenstein


BA music education, though at this point in my life I'm not a teacher.  I find the more I know the more frozen I get.  It seems like writing was so much easier when I could write what sounded good to me and I didn't feel locked into the rules.  Going back to listen to what I wrote in high school, it kind of works, and some of it could stand some help (and most of it isn't exactly "good but rough" - it's just "rough"), but today I get stuck.  Writing a song is like pulling teeth out of unwilling donors with just my bare fingers.  Oh, I'm not using the dominant correctly, or it's minor but there's no raised 6th and 7th going up or whatever.  I have to find a way to clear all that nonsense out of my mind and just...create.  It's very hard for me, though for others it seems so easy.  Not feeling sorry for myself or anything.  Well, maybe a *little* envious.  

The night before I had to confirm whether or not I was going back for another year of music theory, I had this weird dream of the school wall's bleeding. I took that as a message from my subconscious and cancelled my lessons. lol

I can understand your point. Whenever I try to write on the guitar, i'm sitting on the fence. Part of me wants something "challenging" and brilliant to play, the other part of me despise that "show off" stuff and just want to serve the song, only playing what's necessary. Both express the same self-consciousness which hinders creativity. So that's something I have to get over - I need to get in a state of mind where I can just play and enjoy it. All the technique and the knowledge need to serve the instinct. But it's tough.

That being said, I really wish I had the knowledge to write down some of that stuff.

I don't personally think knowledge, whether it applies to music or anything else, would hinder someone. Whether or not it's necessary is a different story, though. If you're interested in orchestral composition or big band arranging, etc. then some musical education would probably be helpful. If you're interested in starting a punk band not so much...it all depends on what your goals are.

I was fortunate to attend Berklee and it was great experience on a lot of different levels for me but I know lots of people who went there and hated it...again, it depends on your goals.

geeare1


I don't personally think knowledge, whether it applies to music or anything else, would hinder someone. 

Not in performance. I still think it can affect creativity as you can effectively become much more of a critic or become self-conscious. It's like someone who's listened to nothing but the Ramones and the Sex-Pistols. Coming up w/ something they consider original will likely be much easier for them than for someone who's listened to just about everything he could put his hands on. Whatever you hear always reminds you of this or that.

The most obvious example for me is with writing. I've studied french literature and I have the hardest time writing something in french, because I am so demanding. So much that if I end up writing something, I'll most likely discard it because once it successfully went through all those filters, it'll feel like it's made up and unnatural. It kills the spontaneity. Well, in my case, most of the times.

If I want to truly get over myself and just write, I'll opt for english. I'm comfortable enough but not to a point where I can get stalled on the smallest little detail. It gives me the distance I need, the "ignorance" which I find necessary.