Beagle

     your opinions are your own, you do not speak for everyone else regarding jazz being boring and predictable.  you have made allegations of "millions of other listeners" but you have no proof to back that up.  you have stated that "jazz has lost almost all audience" - again, these are empty statements without reference to back up your statements.  maybe you should know when to call it quits. 

I have no proof? are you nuts and from the past? go out more from your shack to concerts and you'll see because I love live music
and frequently enjoy it. Then you can compare. Besides that look into statistics. Unfortunately Keith Jarrett, Pat Matheny, Dave Holland, Dave Brubeck and Herbie cannot make up for the pitful rest.  Gush references you have all over the place but it requires some reading....I know I know  it's hard....

You're soooo sexy Beagle when you're firm like that. 

Is that wink for moi, or the cute little pooch above? 

Alegria


You're soooo sexy Beagle when you're firm like that. 

if you think I'm sexy with that post, I'd be worried what you'd think when I get angry! 

Tap


 I really think that the jazz heritage of the area is starting to lose it's ground. It's hard to find a decent jazz radio station here since many of the stations were bought out and reformatted.  A lot of the classic Jazz musicians around the New York / Philadelphia area had no formal training or learned after they became professionals. So I have to believe that Musical Education is not the foundation for a great musician, just a real appreciation for the music.

bingo, was his name...

Jeff Evans


 Jazz is very much alive in every city in Australia

you mean in all three of them? 

The face palm is excellent except that it best represents you not me. It clearly demonstrates how I and most others I am sure on this thread feel about your posts, not mine.

Be careful what you say about Australia. You are only once again demonstrating ignorance and a severe lack of knowledge about this country. We are considered the lucky country and probably I could easily argue that Australia is the best country in the world right now!

When was the last time you heard Chick Corea? I did only earlier this year with RTF.  And I might point out that RTF tunes are very heavily based in melody. There is soloing but it is the tunes that really stand out. Although a lot of this music may have been written in the early 70's they did some fantastic modern interpretations of them.

Chick was playing probably better than I have ever heard him. His soloing was just incredible. He just gets better with age. He is considered one of the greatest musicians and composers of our modern time.

I believe Steely Dan are getting some pretty incredible responses around the world right now too. I am just so sorry I missed them. It is just so great that they are out there touring around.

How do you feel about classical music right now. Do you think it's dead! Do you even like it, have you heard it? I must admit I have been getting involved with it more as my wife plays in a few orchestras. I have been a part of an 1812 overture performance recently and I must say it sounded pretty cool from where I was standing! (in the percussion section of course) Especially at the end.

Oh, I suppose most people go for rock and roll and whatever it is nowadays. Have to be thumped in the head with the bass drum or something.

But I don't like all jazz (too far out sometimes) and I don't like all smooth jazz either, or one genre.

But after 30 albums starting with morning dance and the last album before their current album (more than 30 years) you would have to find something you probably would like from them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5dgGAQnR40

and still going. But I think people want a good melody and a good beat most of all.
And the synth player was raised on classical music, while the rest probably had some lessons, at least some of them.

Thanks Rus for your contributions.

Hi Philip, getting back to the original question. I don't have any formal musical education to fall back on so I wouldn't know if it would have helped or hindered me in my creative efforts. 

This doesn't mean I don't study my instrument, the guitar. And while I may not now the names of the notes and chords that I am playing, sorry Janet ; ), I enjoy very much studying the effects of putting notes together to form chords and melodies.
My compositions are mostly build on these experiments. I find a combination of notes that I like and try to expand on that so I know how I can use this in a musical context.

This musical context is ofcourse defined by all the music I have absorbed throughout the years. I consider this the most important part of my "studies" since while I do strive to come up with original compositions, I do like them to be part of a musical tradition. I like to set myself a challenge to write something in a certain musical style so it's not just the case of stumbling around in the dark till you get lucky and find something. Although I must say that I do enjoy it when I accidentilly stumble on something new .

Rik

p.s. Jazz isn't dead , it just smells funny ; )

LpMike75


I have a feeling Offnote listens to pop stations exclusively and in his mind other music either doesn't exist or is irrelevant.  Atleast that's what I get from his posts. 

Ben says Classical music is dead and Offnote says Jazz musicians cant make a melody and no one likes the music anymore. 

It's hard to debate with people that suffer from such tunnel vision, better off going to make music (or hitting random notes and hope something decent comes out...because learning anything related to music theory is a waste of time)

LpMike75-Hey I was saying classical is dead not just to troll or makeing some grand statement it's because at lot of the big orchestras are going bust, in Philadelphia for instance.  America is in trouble with the amount of orchestra's they have and attendences, I have the research to back this up.  I don't know what it is like in Europe, here in Oz to the disgust of many, we spend all our arts funding on proping up these relic edifices.
 
Then technology is finally catching up with the symphonic instruments avaliable today.  I should be more careful in how word stuff.  Classical music, or music in general, like the world is in transistion, with my new Notion 3 software and a creative mind I try and write electronic Sonata's and I am (even though I have been rejected by all the UNI's) about to attempt my first Symphony (stupid **** from the conservatorium said my idea was naive, so was the forth movement of the 9th).
 
This brings us to the next point and that is nobody really listen's to music these day's, ok a bit of grand statement but once again, there is quite a lot of truth in it, unless I get my John Thommas out and have 50 cent abbs, in the popular relm nobody wants to listen.
 
Ok so were does that leave someone like me, the classical world has rejected me and rejects the idea of renewal, hence only the elites really go to a classical concert anymore.
 
As for Jazz, I never understood it myself, it is music for musician's, the only Jazz I got into was and this is controversial, is King Crimson, controversial, because they were hybrid Jazz.  That's the only reason I got them and Fripp's edict which was for the muso to listen to each other, then play what is appropriate.  So it's not all about soloing and actual tunes come from the music, there are of course exceptions like 1998's ThrakAttack,
 
Jazz and Jeff won't like this, Jazz may be going along nicely in some parts of the world this, I don't know.  Once again because I don't follow Jazz, I'm not prepared to aye or neigh that.
 
Jazz and I may be wrong but Jazz in not a music of renewal and at the moment music is crying out for renewel.  This is where a music eduction comes in.
 
Look from the day's when we could finally here the 9th in our own homes with the advent of the gramaphone, through the roaring twenties, Frank and Bing, Elvis and Buddy Holly; The Beatles and finally Stadium Rock.
 
We've tasted the seven fruits of paradise, when it comes to music, once upon a time and with the adjunct of history Music has given us a theme for our daily lifes.
 
Ok what the **** am I talking about??  This is what I am talking about, the stories of our lives.   John Lennon is introduced to music and Elvis by dancing through the kitchen with his mum. We know this because Lennon mentions it a lot in interveiws.  This is a theme of his life, or music plays an important part in Lennon's devolopment, in 64 if you were in America or were old enough The Beatles were a theme of your life and they influenced you as a person: Hair, wanting to become a rock star, Pink Floyd DSOTM, more children were conceived listening to that album than anyother.  It goes on 1994, Cobain and Grunge.  The last theme.   You will still hear my generation say I was here when I heard that.
 
And the old gods were still worshiped Mozart, Beethoven and Bach.
 
Then it stopped!  Nobody is going to be talking about the day we saw Brittney mime at Rod Laver arena, although they're are still glimmers of the old world, people will talk about Roger Waters last Wall tour and the Live 8 moment when Pink Floyd gave a glimpse into the past.  But once again music as we know it is in need of renewal.
 
This is where a music education comes in.  I can write a theme and a whole post on music history and impact music has had because I have had a music education.
 
I can lament, philosophize and try and make sence of what is happening because of a music education.
 
And I can hold the keys and pass them on to the next generation, or I think it may be To Our Childrens, Childrens, Children before music is once again elevated to the posistion it once held.
 
The old saying of familarity breeds contempt is appropriate here.
 
Peace Ben

"I'm both glad and sorry that we are cursed/blessed with trying to make beautiful music somehow. "


Philip, I've been thinking the same thing lately...when I can't get a tune out of my head, when I can't make the music sound as good as it does in my head, when I can't sing like I'd like to, when I can't quit making music, when I realize how little musicians are often appreciated, etc...sometimes I think it's a curse!  


But I imagine I'll be in my studio again tomorrow.  :)  

And actually Phillip, sorry but YoYo's voice is bland and bland and well bland, after listening to one of his tunes this morning, I can't understand what people see in him.

His music whilst excellently presented and delivered, is bland, bland and well bland.  I want to hear something new not some mere imitation.

Ok I am in a foul mood again but it's true, I gave him kudos where it is deserved he is a craftsman, I want art, though.

Just my opinion for how little it is worth.

Ben 

Ben, I think you're way of thinking is where the problem resides. Let's take a look deeper into it just a bit, ok? (Philip, my apologies for this in your thread but I feel it needs to be said)

1. Yoyo sings in key all the time, has a pleasant to listen to voice and has top notch productions to the best of his ability.

You on the other hand, submit unfinished tunes that are rough sketches of what you consider art. We that are professionals in this field can appreciate a rough sketch, but the roughness of that sketch can sometimes paint a negative picture. In many cases within your material, they are entirely too rough to be presented to the masses. Maybe try and finish something at great lengths before you post it up?

2. Constant boasting about your degrees isn't really appropriate. Let's be honest here. The only thing we can give you props for is that you attended a school and finished your requirements to be "certified". It doesn't make you great at composing...it doesn't make you a great teacher, it doesn't make you "brilliant" at anything. I had a guitar teacher that knew all the theory in the world yet couldn't play a lick that impressed me. Priests go to seminary...it doesn't make them any closer to God nor does it make them any more special than you or I. I pray several times a day the same as they do. Their "priest" cerification means they attended a school in full. It means nothing more, nothing less.

3. You mention how classical your pieces are, yet to me, there is nothing classical sounding in any of them. You may use motifs and formula's used in classical compositions, but your stuff sounds nothing remotely close to being classical.

4. Your voice: I agree with all the stuff James mentioned about your stuff when he gave his in depth opinion. However, I disagree with him on the voice comment. I have heard a few of your tunes where the voice actually sounded human and was in key. You MUST try to write songs that compliment your voice. This means don't write in keys you can't sing in. Your use of vibrato is also very extreme at times and does not fit the material in my opinion. Sometimes you're very opera sounding. Though this is a good sound, to me it doesn't fit the material. It would be like me trying to sing a heavy metal style over a gospal tune or a folk song.

5. Your timing is always off in your tunes in several spots. Both in the execution of your vocals and some of your instrumentation. This brings the whole vibe of a tune down.

6. There are level mismatches, improper mixing and a wide array of stuff that just does not sound right to me in your mixes. You mention being brilliant at mixing and mastering. I sincerely disagree with you and think you need 20 more years of work before you can consider yourself brilliant at any of it. I'd argue that you don't even know much about what mastering is about the proper way. Trust me...your tunes have not been produced good enough to be mastered. If you sent them to me to master, I'd pass on the job because I'd not want to take your money because the stuff that is wrong with your material can't be fixed or improved via mastering. I pass on jobs like that every day because I have a conscience and do not EVER want to take someone's money for the sake of a paycheck. If I can't help someone because it is physically impossible...I tell them which to me, is pretty honest and respectable. Trust me...it's more than putting a compressor, limiter and eq on the mix or using all in ones like Ozone. You'd crap your pants if I went through the motions on how *I* master a tune. And then if we compared your master vs. mine...the sound would speak for itself, trust me. That's not ego talking, that's a fact.

7. Art: You mention your stuff being art many times. You have to understand that because you like your art...it doesn't mean everyone else will. I saw Lars the drummer from Metallica drop 5 million bucks on a painting he considered "art". This painting to me, looked like a baby ate 5 different food colorings and vomited all over the canvas. That to me, is not art. To others, it's more than art...it's worth 5 mil. But to me, there was nothing there that represented art or anything that gave me a sense of enjoyment. Various colors sporatically thrown all over the place is not art to me...and some of your tunes sound like that.

8. Belief in ones self vs. ego: I admire your belief in yourself. But it comes off very self-centered and you constantly brag about everything you do. Why is that Ben? What are you doing that the 25 people that may be reading this thread aren't doing? You see man, it's not up to you to label yourself brilliant or great. That's up to others. When you constantly come on here and brag about all you can do, throw your creds in our faces and then we listen to your tunes, we hear tunes that don't come close to matching the hype you put forth. It really gets old reading it bro...it seriously does.

As a matter of fact, I stopped reading your posts because I got tired of the boasting. I give in and read one after some time has passed....only to read the same exact stuff. Bragging about your creds, bragging about how brilliant you are, how great at mastering you are...bro....STOP IT!! You're not brilliant by industry standards....period. Your attitude is so bad, it's a wonder why no one will hire you. Seriously man...people do not like braggers. Your mixes are equal to 2nd year amateurs. Call it art if you must, it's unfinished, rough, and loaded with amatuer mistakes and laziness. You want the truth from someone living this 24/7 that has made a living from music for several years that works with some industry top dogs....that's MY blatant truth.

Let me share something with you. I'm a very proud man, Ben. I've done a lot of cool things in this world because of music. I die inside every day wanting to share them with people. I do lots of things musically...from playing different instruments physically to mixing, mastering, producing as well as consultations. I would love to share everything I can do with people. You know...MY credentials. But, it would be bragging so I try to show what *I know* in the posts I make hoping to help others instead of bragging about myself. But guess what? If I did and started listing where I've been, who I've worked with, who I'm working with now and all the things I can do, it's going to sound like bragging and no one is going to like me. Quite a few don't like me as it is...but that's ok, I know who they are and don't like them either. :) But, people are always going to read what they want to read no matter how you go out of your way to put it across to them. If I went out on a limb to try my best to share parts of myself with people doing my best not to sound like I was self-praising myself, right away they think ego. So you have to watch your delivery in areas like that. It's really a drag man and you need to curb that like....starting when you wake up today or whenever you read this post.

You've got it all wrong. No one owes you anything. Your art is your art...it doesn't get praised unless it's worthy of praise...you don't go and praise it yourself. Again, I admire your passion, but your delivery is all wrong and I think your anger, rejection and frustration has altered your focus. You don't want to write songs the majority can relate to...fine, do what you feel you do best...but don't go off on the world when they don't view your art as YOU do. To some of us it's not art...it's noise. The same as my stuff will be considered "noise" to people. They'll say "It has no direction...no concept, no formula...no begining, no middle, no climax, no end...repetitive noise that just does nothing for a person." But, if you want acceptance...you have to earn that and sometimes that means doing something that is acceptable. How about how bands do popular cover songs? Why? Accpetance. Put a good cover on your roster where people dig what you do...it can sometimes pave the way to your own stuff. I'm not saying you should do that..but that's why others do. It allows the introduction part to be a bit more forgiving. 

Another thing that I think you have all wrong. No artist sets out to redefine the face of music. We all write like our heros to get the idea of writing. From there, as time goes by, you gain your own identity. But no one starts out trying to be this original thing that has never been done before. It just happens...you don't create it. It can't be created...it has to happen on its own. Weird for the sake of weird is just that. It will have a select audience. Also...and this is the most important....art isn't about sharing, getting props, landing jobs or making people happy. It's about you getting the ideas out of your head. It matters not whether they are shared or not. What matters is the joy it brings you. But when you post something in a public forum, you're going to get feedback. Some you won't like, some you may. But this is how it works.

Do yourself a favor man....stop being angry and frustrated. Stop flaunting your credentials...stop bashing on Christmas and blaming your misfortunes on anyone and anything and do something about it by changing YOU. We can all sit here and bag on the economy, who did this to us in the past, what happened today...it's all moot. Listen, we all get dealt a bad hand from time to time. Some people get dealt that hand more than others. However, in my opinion MOST times, it's God saying "look dum dum, you ain't smart enough to change this stuff so I'm going to put something in your path that will change it for you." Ok, you might not believe in God...call it some sort of fate interfering then if you need to. Whatever the case, nothing changes unless you make the changes.

Stop getting yourself in a drunken frame of mind and START doing something. Work on song structure. Think theatrics, but think of a book or a movie. Beginning , middle, climax and end. Think of soundstage placement...think of vocals that sound like vocals instead of a mutant eating the flesh off someones bones or using extreme opera vibrato. If you want demonic, write a tune musically that fits it. If you're gonna sing like opera, write an opera tune. Write some cool melodies, learn to perform your executions in time, learn to use compression correctly and learn how to balance your frequencies correctly. Don't be lazy....stop posting sketches and post something totally finished with all the bells and whistles so at least people can judge what you've presented properly. And most of all...do NOT stop doing this regardless of what anyone tells you. You have good ideas man...seriously...they just are not ideas that are quite ready to be thrown out there just yet. You have a ways to go before you will be considered brilliant.

Think some of this stuff over before you rant and snap out on me. I don't show up on these forums to hurt anyone. Anyone that knows me or has read what I've had to offer knows that's not the case EVER. But you wanted opions....I'm giving it to you honestly. You made it a point to comment on Jame's work. There was no need for that. His work wasn't in question here....yours was. The same with me...you don't have to go out of your way to bash on my work stating what you hate about it. I'm not the one looking for opinions on whether I should hang it up or not. I'm perfectly happy with my writing and performances. As a matter of fact, I really don't care what anyone thinks of me or my material. I'm like scotch. Some like me, some don't and never will. I write for myself...if others like it, awesome...if not, fine by me, but I wouldn't release something if I wasn't happy with it. Rest assured man...if I was looking for comments and guys like James or myself gave me some pointers....I'd bite the bullet and listen. :)

Sorry if some of this comes off harsh or is not what you wanted to hear...but it's my professional truth in the best way I can explain it. Some of it is harsh due to how you make me feel when I read your posts. I find it frustrating thinking how to respond. I find your constant bragging and ranting in poor taste and it just gets to me. I also find it strange that no one has attempted to be as honest with you as James and myself have. However, reading your response to him, it's clear to see why they haven't. No one wants to get in a p!ssing match with you based on trying to help you or share an honest opinion. Can you blame them? Seriously...take a look at James. He's a respected member on this forum that delivers the goods. Ok, he may not do things the way you like them the same as I'm sure you may not like what I do. But, like us or hate us...we achieve decent results and are fairly consistent with what we deliver in different styles. Not only that, but we have each helped several people on this forum who appreciate what we've offered. When you do stuff like that and then present material that backs up the talk, it gives you a bit more credibility. Think this stuff over. I'm saying it to help you, not hurt you or totally bash your character. I felt it needed to be said and I like to think that within some of the negativity that I've given you here, that there are enough positives and helpful info for you as well. If not and you choose to bash my brains in...so be it. I promise I won't even try and put up a fight. You wanted an honest opinion...the above is mine without any malice towards you as a human being. :)

-Danny

BenMMusTech


Cool bananas Danny (I don't hate you or James) but you still did not read or understand what I have said, I said I have posted my journey, neither is it at the begining nor the end.

Christ whatever I say will just sound like an excuse, so I give up.

I have reinstalled everything, everything is almost operational.

The only thing I brag about is my creditials, correct me if I am wrong if I have ever said here is the most wonderful peice of music in the world.

You know what Danny, I will show you.

What's the point in saying anymore.

Ben

Ben, sometimes the rants are so intense...I don't think anyone understands what you're saying. No, you never said anything was the most wonderful piece of music. I never said you said that man. I said you brag about how great/brilliant you are in everything. Am I the only that's read it all over the forum? LOL!
 
You don't have to show me anything man....show yourself and be where you want to be. Look bro...if you are completely pleased with where you are as well as who you are and what your material represents...you're right where you need to be. You don't need anyone's input. I gave it because you wanted another opinion as you asked for it in this thread. How do I address someone that feels there are elements of their craft that are brilliant/great? I basically say "well to me it's not and here are the reasons why in full". Trust me...it wasn't easy for me to type that to you. But I felt maybe it was time for someone to be a bit more explanitory and tell it like it is if you were my friend or even a student. But hey, if proving it to me is your weapon to bring you to the next level....use me as your dart board brother. I'd rather have you totally be successful in this field over the frustration I sense with you right now. If you wound up becoming some world famous person due to this chat....it wouldn't even bother me if you didn't like me...I'd still be happy for you and wanna hug you and tell you good job. I'd even offer a jaw for you to break if it helped any. :) I seriously want to see you succeed man and get to where you want. I'll keep you in my prayers that it happens. :)
 
-Danny