michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/30 18:58:01
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Brando
michael diemer
And definitely I'll be looking for one without a monthly fee!
Like SONAR PLATINUM when you pay up front?
Ah, but after a year you no longer get updates, unless you start paying again. Reaper updates? Free.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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vintagevibe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/01 00:54:22
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☄ Helpfulby Kamikaze 2015/05/01 01:15:42
cparmerlee
I continue to believe that at this stage of the game, it is not a practical (or smart) goal to try to build "Finale-level" notation into Sonar.
No one has ever wanted that and no one has ever suggested that. That has absolutely nothing to do with what this conversation is about.
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/01 02:00:50
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vintagevibe
cparmerlee
I continue to believe that at this stage of the game, it is not a practical (or smart) goal to try to build "Finale-level" notation into Sonar.
No one has ever wanted that and no one has ever suggested that. That has absolutely nothing to do with what this conversation is about.
How can you possibly know that? The company has not said what their strategy is with regard to notation. Noel has said that he offered to hire some of the people working on Spreadbury's team, so we really don't know what the company's goals are with respect to notation, or if they even have any. You are welcome to assume the company has no grand aspirations, and you might be right about that. But to say this has nothing to do with the conversation suggests that you are only listening to the part of the conversation you want to hear. Notation is too important a factor in the future of music technology for the company not to have a strategy that goes beyond fixing triplets.
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/01 02:17:37
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☄ Helpfulby sergiobklyn 2015/05/02 19:36:11
I think what Vintage is referring to, is that what poster are asking for is simply, fix the bugs, and develop it to make it more usable, flexible and intuitive. Where users do want to print (me for example) for most it's not really extensive scores. Posters aren't asking for it to be a competition for Notation specific program such as Finale, that is not an expectation of Sonar from it's user base.
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vintagevibe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/01 08:13:20
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cparmerlee
vintagevibe
cparmerlee
I continue to believe that at this stage of the game, it is not a practical (or smart) goal to try to build "Finale-level" notation into Sonar.
No one has ever wanted that and no one has ever suggested that. That has absolutely nothing to do with what this conversation is about.
How can you possibly know that? The company has not said what their strategy is with regard to notation.
Noel has said that he offered to hire some of the people working on Spreadbury's team, so we really don't know what the company's goals are with respect to notation, or if they even have any. You are welcome to assume the company has no grand aspirations, and you might be right about that. But to say this has nothing to do with the conversation suggests that you are only listening to the part of the conversation you want to hear. Notation is too important a factor in the future of music technology for the company not to have a strategy that goes beyond fixing triplets.
Cakewalk has stated this more than once on this forum but that was not my point. This conversation is not about Notation app level function. No DAW does that.
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/01 08:29:33
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michael diemer
Brando
michael diemer
And definitely I'll be looking for one without a monthly fee!
Like SONAR PLATINUM when you pay up front?
Ah, but after a year you no longer get updates, unless you start paying again. Reaper updates? Free.
Yes- you get what you pay for (yes I've tried Reaper).
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/01 17:22:33
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Currently downloading Cubase AI for free (came with UR22 audio interface). If I like it I can upgrade to Cubase Elements for 50.00. I will compare the notation editor with Sonar's. It occurred to me recently that even if Sonar does improve notation view, it won't apply to my version, 8.5. So I would have to upgrade to sonar X. Which means I might as well check out other DAWS as I've never been sold on the new Sonar, and especially not the new payment model. Not trying to slam Cakewalk here; it's just the inevitable result of feeling like your needs aren't going to be met, because they don't even appear to be heard at this point, despite this thread.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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Susan G
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 00:32:53
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michael diemer
Ah, but after a year you no longer get updates, unless you start paying again. Reaper updates? Free.
Hi michael - I'm not sure where you got the idea that REAPER updates are free. According to their site: Your one-user, full-use license includes up to two major version numbers' worth of REAPER's famous frequent upgrades. From < http://www.cockos.com/reaper/purchase.php> For example, I paid for a 3.x license and will have to buy a new one when 5.0 comes out. OTOH, FL Studio does in fact offer free lifetime upgrades. -Susan
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 00:57:02
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Oops. I guess I didn't see the fine print. but it does say you get many (dozens) of free upgrades between versions. I guess that's what misled me. Anyway...I'm busy exploring Cubase AI. When Reaper gets their notation editor, I'll be checking that out. Studio One is another possible option, as they also produce Notion, which we can surmise may be integrated into the DAW at some point. OR, wonder of wonder of wonders, Cakewalk will do the work necessary to upgrade their notation, and I won't have to leave at all. but I need to look at other options at this point.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 01:07:49
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Beware Cubase AI is nothing like the real thing.
Despite Sonars notation limitations Jerry Gerber who is one of the most recognised MIDI musicians is able to produce very complex scores and compositions using Sonars notation editor. Not that he doesn't want some improvements himself.
It shows that it's really the persons talent that can work within limitations of the tools and still produce excellent work.
I've never known tools to get in the way of really talented people. People spend a lot of tIme shopping around without making any music. Surely you can make music with any DAW.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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lfm
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 01:12:18
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☄ Helpfulby cparmerlee 2015/05/02 01:24:03
Susan G
OTOH, FL Studio does in fact offer free lifetime upgrades.
-Susan
Yes, and it took them 8 years after Sonar to provide a 64-bit version, didn't it? You get what you pay for, kind of.... and that goes for Reaper as well...bought 3.6 in 2010, and v4 was real upgrade in features - but after that nothing much, in my view.... ...so now 5 years later you got the second update, what I consider an update - that is payable v5.0. Again, you get what you pay for.... StudioOne, nothing happend basically for two years - everybody hope v3 is around the corner. Cubase, 20 years of patches - I cannot even imagine sitting all days with that software. Hiddeous workflow and nothing is named as in mixer or audio world. Cubase Elements is good value for money, but so cut down on features so you really need at least Cubase Artist in my view. Avid ProTools - pay every year or buy full new license when wanting an upgrade. Yes, you can rent for $30/month that stops working when stops paying. Nobody can doubt dedication from Cakewalk to make Sonar really attractive choice for anybody. Really generous entry level with Sonar Artist and if you rather get a package with just about all in plugins you need you go for Sonar Pro or Platinum. Get DDMF Metaplugin - and overcome what was the main routing limitations of Sonar. And since X3 Sonar has been very stable for me....and Bakers are communicating with userbase in a way that I like...
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Susan G
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 01:17:05
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mudgel
Beware Cubase AI is nothing like the real thing.
Despite Sonars notation limitations Jerry Gerber who is one of the most recognised MIDI musicians is able to produce very complex scores and compositions using Sonars notation editor. Not that he doesn't want some improvements himself.
It shows that it's really the persons talent that can work within limitations of the tools and still produce excellent work.
I've never known tools to get in the way of really talented people. People spend a lot of tIme shopping around without making any music. Surely you can make music with any DAW.
Hi Mike- Sure, you can make music with any DAW, but didn't Jerry say recently he was moving to Digital Performer because of limitations in SONAR's Staff View? http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3209888 -Susan
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Susan G
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 01:24:34
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lfm
Susan G
OTOH, FL Studio does in fact offer free lifetime upgrades.
-Susan
Yes, and it took them 8 years after Sonar to provide a 64-bit version, didn't it?
You get what you pay for, kind of....
and that goes for Reaper as well...bought 3.6 in 2010, and v4 was real upgrade in features - but after that nothing much, in my view....
...so now 5 years later you got the second update, what I consider an update - that is payable v5.0.
Again, you get what you pay for....
StudioOne, nothing happend basically for two years - everybody hope v3 is around the corner.
Cubase, 20 years of patches - I cannot even imagine sitting all days with that software. Hiddeous workflow and nothing is named as in mixer or audio world. Cubase Elements is good value for money, but so cut down on features so you really need at least Cubase Artist in my view.
Avid ProTools - pay every year or buy full new license when wanting an upgrade. Yes, you can rent for $30/month that stops working when stops paying.
Nobody can doubt dedication from Cakewalk to make Sonar really attractive choice for anybody. Really generous entry level with Sonar Artist and if you rather get a package with just about all in plugins you need you go for Sonar Pro or Platinum. Get DDMF Metaplugin - and overcome what was the main routing limitations of Sonar. And since X3 Sonar has been very stable for me....and Bakers are communicating with userbase in a way that I like...
lfm
Susan G
OTOH, FL Studio does in fact offer free lifetime upgrades.
-Susan
Yes, and it took them 8 years after Sonar to provide a 64-bit version, didn't it?
You get what you pay for, kind of....
and that goes for Reaper as well...bought 3.6 in 2010, and v4 was real upgrade in features - but after that nothing much, in my view....
...so now 5 years later you got the second update, what I consider an update - that is payable v5.0.
Again, you get what you pay for....
StudioOne, nothing happend basically for two years - everybody hope v3 is around the corner.
Cubase, 20 years of patches - I cannot even imagine sitting all days with that software. Hiddeous workflow and nothing is named as in mixer or audio world. Cubase Elements is good value for money, but so cut down on features so you really need at least Cubase Artist in my view.
Avid ProTools - pay every year or buy full new license when wanting an upgrade. Yes, you can rent for $30/month that stops working when stops paying.
Nobody can doubt dedication from Cakewalk to make Sonar really attractive choice for anybody. Really generous entry level with Sonar Artist and if you rather get a package with just about all in plugins you need you go for Sonar Pro or Platinum. Get DDMF Metaplugin - and overcome what was the main routing limitations of Sonar. And since X3 Sonar has been very stable for me....and Bakers are communicating with userbase in a way that I like...
Hi Lars- Okay, fine. I don't really want to debate the virtues of one DAW's upgrade policy or what's included in their upgrades over another here. I just wanted to clarify that REAPER does not offer lifetime free upgrades and FL Studio does. -Susan
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mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 01:50:15
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Referring to post 552.
Yep, that was a couple of weeks ago but in any case the music he made up to date he made with Sonar and even in this same thread he's shown folks how to over come / work around some of their biggest gripes with Sonars notation. I don't really want to put words in Jerry's mouth and should let his post speak for itself. Jerry's move seems more motivated by his thoughts about future notation development, but, after all, he has still been prolific in his use of Sonar to date. While it may have been more difficult the restriction of the tools didn't stop him from being creative in the expression of his talents.
It may well be that DP on PC has now evolved so that it suits his purposes better. But DP is a relative newcomer to the PC.
For my scoring needs I've long used other programs but still use Sonar for basic note input via the notation editor when required. Admittedly it's not the main focus of where I worked though.
I can only speak for me and on the balance of uses across all the DAWs I've tried and use, Sonar provides me the workflow for most of what I want to do.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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vintagevibe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 11:58:56
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mudgel
Referring to post 552.
Yep, that was a couple of weeks ago but in any case the music he made up to date he made with Sonar and even in this same thread he's shown folks how to over come / work around some of their biggest gripes with Sonars notation. I don't really want to put words in Jerry's mouth and should let his post speak for itself. Jerry's move seems more motivated by his thoughts about future notation development, but, after all, he has still been prolific in his use of Sonar to date. While it may have been more difficult the restriction of the tools didn't stop him from being creative in the expression of his talents.
It may well be that DP on PC has now evolved so that it suits his purposes better. But DP is a relative newcomer to the PC.
For my scoring needs I've long used other programs but still use Sonar for basic note input via the notation editor when required. Admittedly it's not the main focus of where I worked though.
I can only speak for me and on the balance of uses across all the DAWs I've tried and use, Sonar provides me the workflow for most of what I want to do.
As Jerry has proven you can do work in Sonar's Staff View. You also can build a house with a saw and hammer but I prefer power tools.
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 12:48:18
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mudgel
Beware Cubase AI is nothing like the real thing.
Despite Sonars notation limitations Jerry Gerber who is one of the most recognised MIDI musicians is able to produce very complex scores and compositions using Sonars notation editor. Not that he doesn't want some improvements himself.
It shows that it's really the persons talent that can work within limitations of the tools and still produce excellent work.
I've never known tools to get in the way of really talented people. People spend a lot of tIme shopping around without making any music. Surely you can make music with any DAW.
Agreed. I have produced 5 symphonic works in Sonar, doing my midi editing in staff view. Now, I'm not Jerry, I'm just a hobbyist, and publishing and performances are probably not going to happen for me. I just need notation that will serve as a true, if basic, record of my music (in case a great-great nephew finds it and happens to know a conductor...). Sonar's current notation just won't do. you can't even print a condensed page of the instruments actually playing at the time - Sonar makes you print pages with all instruments, playing or not. This is not acceptable. and of course the triplets... Yes, I can produce the sound version in sonar, and do a print version in another program, but again, for my needs, just a basic but minimally professional notation system would let me do it all in one program. That's what I'm looking for.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 13:57:50
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Susan G
OTOH, FL Studio does in fact offer free lifetime upgrades.
Yes, but as a fine point this doesn't apply to everything, just like the SONAR membership program doesn't include Cakewalk's new iOS programs or instruments. From their web site: Does this mean you will get everything we develop for free from now on ? Not everything: A lot of the new stuff we develop is built in to FL Studio and is included in the Lifetime Free Updates. We do this to improve the application and keep it competitive with other software on the market. As the industry grows so does FL Studio and what it can do. You win! Sometimes when we develop something new, like a software synthesizer or other module, we investigate whether to build it into the main application and include it free, or offer it as an optional add-on purchase. And back to topic, I do think Vintagevibe's assessment of what the community wants is accurate for the majority of users. FWIW there were two Staff View fixes in the Dorchester. They're obviously baby steps, but at least it seems like Staff view is popping up on the radar. \ * Tracks are now listed numerically in the Staff View * Staff View Track Pane no longer forgets picked tracks when changing screensets
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 13:59:26
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michael diemer
Studio One is another possible option, as they also produce Notion, which we can surmise may be integrated into the DAW at some point.
I think the integration is the same that Notion can do with any program, it's not like there are special hooks. Not that there won't be at some point, but V3 isn't due until later in the year so we'll have to wait a while to find out.
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 14:04:11
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And one last comment...if Jerry is going to move away from SONAR, I'm at least glad to see he's supporting DP. They're also from Boston, and really kind of got the shaft when, after supporting Apple through thick and thin (including the Gil Amelio years), Apple abruptly pulled Logic from stores and sold it for $199 - thus undercutting pretty much everyone on that platform.
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konradh
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 14:35:57
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With this much emotion about Staff View, I'm surprised Cakewalk doesn't just bite the bullet and fix the stuff on the list that doesn't require a major rewrite.
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Jon Bryson
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 14:48:34
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SquireBum
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 19:17:47
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Anderton
FWIW there were two Staff View fixes in the Dorchester. They're obviously baby steps, but at least it seems like Staff view is popping up on the radar. \
* Tracks are now listed numerically in the Staff View * Staff View Track Pane no longer forgets picked tracks when changing screensets Unfortunately in software development, " baby steps" forward often result in a step backward.  This refers to CWBRN-32843 " View>Staff view will not update an open staff view with new track selection" (details in http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3215769). Ron
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 23:15:20
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After fooling around with Cubase AI for awhile: If the higher versions are no better, I must admit that Sonar (8.5) is far superior. One down and a few more to go...maybe the new Reaper version with notation will be the one (but I kind of doubt it). As has been said, you get what you pay for. Sonar on the whole is incredible. Which makes this so frustrating. Just minor, really doable improvements in notation, and it would be light years ahead of the competition. Sigh...
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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vintagevibe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/02 23:55:04
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michael diemer
After fooling around with Cubase AI for awhile: If the higher versions are no better, I must admit that Sonar (8.5) is far superior.
Dude you need to fool around some more. I left Sonar X3 for Cubase about a year ago (for notation) and there is no comparison. Sonar 8.5 is a toy compared to Cubase 8 Pro in regards to notation. Comparing Cubase AI to Cubase 8 Pro is like comparing Music Creator to Sonar X3 (or whatever they call it now). Cubase 8 Pro has notation features that even Sibelius doesn't have. Score View is a serious set of notation tools. Even the notation in Cubase 8 Elements that I have on my laptop is far superior to Sonar's. The section of the manual for notation in Cubase 8 Pro is 175 pages!
post edited by vintagevibe - 2015/05/03 01:24:02
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/03 14:24:45
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Thanks Vintagevibe for that info, it is very helpful. But I ran into a big problem in AI when I tried the step record function. Yikes! It's hideous. Maybe it's better in Elements, but I love sonar's step record, because you can use it in staff view, which is what I do. I know that it leads to robotic results, but I can live with that. My music is too complex for me to enter any other way, I'm just not a good enough keyboardist. so any DAW is going to have to have a step record at least as good as Sonar's, or I can't use it.
I might check out Studio One next. It's supposed to be built on the Logic model. If sonar can just do triplets right, and have a better printing function (as in condensing an orchestral score so that only instruments actually playing are shown on each page), I will be happy to remain in the fold, and even upgrade from 8.5. But I'm going to continue checking out other options just in case.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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vintagevibe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/03 15:09:10
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michael, I don't use step record so I really can't comment on it. Cubase may not be the right choice for you but I would at lease try Cubase 8 Elements. AI is the total beginner hobbyist version and probably a few versions behind. The Chord Pad function in Elements 8 is seriously cool.
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mbunkerusa
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/03 16:24:30
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I have been using (originally Cakewalk) Overture with Sonar. LoopBe30 provides the bridge from Overture's score editor to Sonar via MIDI tracks on separate channels, and is soooo simple to set up. Just be sure to accept all of the MIDI tracks into Sonar as Omni, not the actual MIDI channel since this confuses Sonar.
-Mike
 Charles (Mike) Bunker, mbunkerusa@earthlink.net, Clearwater, FL Sonar Platinum, Roland Integra-7, Overture 5. HP laptop 4 cores, Windows 10-64 bit, 8 GB memory, lotsa disk.
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konradh
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/03 17:29:06
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I recommend a separate forum for Cakewalk notation, although you may need to purchase more storage. 
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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williamcopper
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/03 17:44:24
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When even Finale and Sibelius have limitations, I don't even think about looking at Sonar's notation view, nor, for that matter, Cubase's. It hasn't happened yet, but for us who use musical scores, I'm betting the notation programs will get good enough with VST's, FX's, etc, before the DAWs will get good at notation.
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interpolated
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/03 18:16:42
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I think also some human playback features could be thought about. So definitely vst3 and script compatable.
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