michael diemer
I can't understand why cubase has such a reputation. I am mystified by its GUI. Don't like it all.

 The reputation is because of its sheer power.  It really has amazing functions (especially MIDI) that you really have to work with to appreciate.  The GUI is strange coming from Sonar but changing DAWs is always hard.  You may not need all that power and no DAW is right for everyone.  
 
Examples of MIDI functions that I like:  
 
1) I can play a timpani roll on a keyboard or drum pad that sounds exactly I want it to.  Then in the score I can turn it (visually) into a whole not with roll markings.  The underlying MIDI data is not changed but the score looks correct and doesn't have a 32nd note mess.  I wish Sibelius could do that.
2) The Time Warp function blows me away.  Among many other tricks you can manually or automatically move individual barlines to create the perfect timing. 
3)  Instead of using keyswitches and messing up my notation I can pull all articulations from a menu and simple mark the score with them just like I would with a real orchestra.
 
YMMV
 
p.s. Props to Sonar - I miss the docking.  Cubase is part of the way there but I still have a lot of windows to deal with.  
 

Here in the Uk there appeared to be a major push in education by avid for both sibelius and protools. Craig is right that some users might not change daw .. but the 'lacking' notation tools would interfere with school's and colleges choice of Daw and thus effectivley breed a large number of Users who would not have used sonar and make their possible user/customer base smaller.

sonar has so many advantages for schools its a darn pity that it might always be overlooked because of this one area which just needs a little TLC.

I would pay xtra tomorrow if sonar charged a 100 or more if it improved this one essential aspect of the program.

jsg
For what it's worth, I am letting people know the following:
 
I've purchased DP8 for Windows and it is fantastic.  All my concerns about the event list, docking, multiple staff windows and everything else have been alleviated.  DP is superior to Sonar in ergonomics, MIDI functions (more of them and deeper, with more options), and of course the staff view displays triplets, tied triplets, 64th notes and dotted triplets correctly.  ;>)!  DP's handling of tempo and meter are also much more sophisticated than Sonar.
MIDI over LAN is great, I'm having no issues with MIDI, audio, VSTs or notation.
 
DP's Window sets work better than Sonar, I can hotkey multiple staff views, each with their own instrument tracks.  I was wrong about that too. 
 
The color choices are amazing.  They all work properly and are easy to change.  The program has more depth than Sonar and it feels and looks like a precision, professional tool, rather than the X series of Sonar which always looked more toyish to me.  The film scoring features are the best--DP's integration with timecode, streamers, punches and click tracks are amazing.  It is definitely designed for serious musicians, film, TV and game composers, arrangers, classical composers and orchestrators.  The chunks feature allows multiple sequences in one file, perfect for scoring cues to picture.  The learning-curve is fairly steep, it is a deep program. 
 
I had the concern that the event list wasn't color coded, but, again, thankfully, I was wrong.  You can do a search for any event in the list and DP will highlight it so checking for errors is easy. 
 
I lost faith in Cakewalk after multiple versions kept introducing new bugs and ignoring the old ones and they kept telling us they will get to the staff view.  Seems that CW is far more interested in adding new features than fixing bugs.  I couldn't live with that anymore.  After giving CW my money for 22 years I am done.  I uninstalled Sonar from my DAW and though I am still learning DP, I am happier about my DAW than I've been in years.    If CW doesn't change their mindset about what a DAW is, the competition is going to outdo them.  DP is proof.
 
Jerry

I tried DP Win when it was first released but it had too many problems.

*I demoed it again this week & it's been greatly improved.

Chunks were something I really liked in DP.  I put in a feature request some time back for something like this in Sonar.  Video features are terrific.  When I tried demo the first time I kept running in to bugs.  I re-upped my demo and am in contact with a support guy this time in case I have problems.
 
 

I would never say anything negative about DP simply because I don't have anything negative to say about it. It's a fine program and I've known the people behind it for literally decades. It was never really my cup of tea, yet when I was exclusively part of "press world" MOTU always made sure I had the latest version, and I always made sure to cover it and learn about it so I could write about tips and techniques because I felt it deserved the attention...even more so after what Apple did, with dropping the price of Logic and pulling the rug out from under competing software companies.
 
Similarly I can see why some people love Cubase, Ableton Live, FL Studio, Pro Tools, Mixcraft, or whatever. Each has its own target audience. Jerry, you ARE DP's target audience. What you want is something DP does extremely well. Conversely, what I want is something SONAR does extremely well - handle a huge variety of projects. I couldn't imagine, for example, creating a sample library in any other program, or narration for that matter (except in Sequoia, the only DAW I know of that can do four-point broadcast editing). I don't experience crashes or even glitches, and really, I don't need to do workarounds because my needs are congruent with what SONAR delivers.
 
The one place where I will take issue with you is your belief that CW is "far more interested in adding new features than fixing bugs." Ther bug fix list from X3 to Platinum, and during the first three releases, is significant. Granted, fixes are based on community input, and as I mentioned, most people don't buy SONAR for the staff view so their concerns lie elsewhere. One of the main reasons for introducing the Membership Program was specifically so that fixes would occur continuously, not just for a few months and then have to be put aside to develop a new version. One of Cakewalk's main priorities is to make SONAR at least as stable as any other DAW, and this was seen as a better way to meet that goal. I think the past three months have shown that Cakewalk is very serious about addressing bugs and workflow issues that have accumulated over the years.
 
Of course, the price Cakewalk pays for concentrating on fixes is there will always be people who find the latest release "underwhelming" since the improvements are under the hood. Regardless, at least to me VocalSync is incredibly useful and the only way I could have gotten it was by subscribing to Adobe Audition, which has something similar, or paying far more than what the SONAR update costs for a third-party plug-in. Mix Recall has also been huge for me, as someone who needs to create multiple versions of mixes and remixes. Matrix View means I don't have to ReWire Ableton Live into SONAR...ARA is a future-oriented protocol that's not just about integrating Melodyne...and so on.
 
If there's one thing I've learned after working with multiple DAWs over decades, it's that you need to find the one that addresses your needs the best.

Anderton
I would never say anything negative about DP simply because I don't have anything negative to say about it. It's a fine program and I've known the people behind it for literally decades. It was never really my cup of tea, yet when I was exclusively part of "press world" MOTU always made sure I had the latest version, and I always made sure to cover it and learn about it so I could write about tips and techniques because I felt it deserved the attention...even more so after what Apple did, with dropping the price of Logic and pulling the rug out from under competing software companies.
 
Similarly I can see why some people love Cubase, Ableton Live, FL Studio, Pro Tools, Mixcraft, or whatever. Each has its own target audience. Jerry, you ARE DP's target audience. What you want is something DP does extremely well. Conversely, what I want is something SONAR does extremely well - handle a huge variety of projects. I couldn't imagine, for example, creating a sample library in any other program, or narration for that matter (except in Sequoia, the only DAW I know of that can do four-point broadcast editing). I don't experience crashes or even glitches, and really, I don't need to do workarounds because my needs are congruent with what SONAR delivers.
 
The one place where I will take issue with you is your belief that CW is "far more interested in adding new features than fixing bugs." Ther bug fix list from X3 to Platinum, and during the first three releases, is significant. Granted, fixes are based on community input, and as I mentioned, most people don't buy SONAR for the staff view so their concerns lie elsewhere. One of the main reasons for introducing the Membership Program was specifically so that fixes would occur continuously, not just for a few months and then have to be put aside to develop a new version. One of Cakewalk's main priorities is to make SONAR at least as stable as any other DAW, and this was seen as a better way to meet that goal. I think the past three months have shown that Cakewalk is very serious about addressing bugs and workflow issues that have accumulated over the years.
 
Of course, the price Cakewalk pays for concentrating on fixes is there will always be people who find the latest release "underwhelming" since the improvements are under the hood. Regardless, at least to me VocalSync is incredibly useful and the only way I could have gotten it was by subscribing to Adobe Audition, which has something similar, or paying far more than what the SONAR update costs for a third-party plug-in. Mix Recall has also been huge for me, as someone who needs to create multiple versions of mixes and remixes. Matrix View means I don't have to ReWire Ableton Live into SONAR...ARA is a future-oriented protocol that's not just about integrating Melodyne...and so on.
 
If there's one thing I've learned after working with multiple DAWs over decades, it's that you need to find the one that addresses your needs the best.

May each of us find happiness with our creativity and enjoy our brief stay on Earth.   150 years ago we didn't even have electric light bulbs.   What we have now to make music with is beyond astonishing.  When I graduated college with my music degree MIDI was still a year away.  

Anderton
Sorry, the second paragraph was a hypothetical of Image-Line saying someone complained because "they read in the SONAR forum that all updates are free." That's not exactly what you said, but is what someone might read it your post because that's what they want to read into it.

Hi Craig-
 
Well, that's not even close to what I said, let alone "exactly"! "FL Studio" isn't the same as "all Image-Line products," just as "SONAR" isn't the same as "all Cakewalk products."
 
I've been following the I-L forums for many, many years and they make their update policies very clear. The free lifetime upgrades for FL Studio is one of their main selling points and I don't think I've ever seen a post there confusing FL Studio with one of their other products.
 
Granted, the I-L forums are for registered users only, so maybe folks have complained elsewhere that I don't know about.
 
Thanks-
 
-Susan

Susan G
I've been following the I-L forums for many, many years and they make their update policies very clear. The free lifetime upgrades for FL Studio is one of their main selling points and I don't think I've ever seen a post there confusing FL Studio with one of their other products.
 
Granted, the I-L forums are for registered users only, so maybe folks have complained elsewhere that I don't know about.

Again I apologize for drifting off notation, but don't overthink this. You said FL Studio offers free lifetime upgrades. This is true. You know it, I know it, and people who've read the FAQ on the I-L site know it. I think the confusion arises because sometimes instruments are included in an FLS update and sometimes they're not. So just as some people here got totally bent out of shape because they thought a SONAR update meant a Rapture update, the same happens with other software. This also happened with Live when they brought out their FM synth concurrent with a Live update. And because Ensoniq provided a lot of free samples for their samplers, when they brought out ones that were for sale people felt that should get them for free. I could go on with the Air instruments for Pro Tools etc. etc. but you get the point. I'm sensitive to this because I've seen it happen often. Just because you know how to read doesn't mean the rest of the world does
 
So I wanted to make sure people didn't get the wrong impression, especially if they then attribute it to a forum run by a semi-competing manufacturer. This is why I quoted that section from the FAQ on the I-L site. That way no one could misread what was said.
 

jsg

riojazz
I have a buddy who raves about Digital Performer on his Mac, so I tried the demo for the Windows version when it first came out.  Like Komposer described a few posts above, it was so buggy I quickly uninstalled it.  Now I'll have to try the demo again. 
 
 

Same here, the first release for Windows was buggy, I took it off my computer as well.  But I never forgot the beautiful interface, the superior notation and the fact that it supports 64-bit and VSTs.  So I waited and downloaded it again last month.  
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 

Current DP version for windows is 8.07(sept 2014) still, which I ran in december.
 
All tuts crashed on me, but own projects worked fine.
Waves Element synth, scans but nowhere to be found for insert.
DDMF Metaplugin got both version Synth/effect as effect so nowhere to be inserted as synth - or I could load Element with Metaplugin, so fail again.
 
Dave was kind to let me trial twice 8.04 and 8.07, but still for me showstoppers.
Then it was scan of Magix Independent that hung and could not be used.
 
But will check DP9, unless Cakewalk announce something first for notation improvements.
I also like chunks idea in DP but for me Cubase style Arranger Tracks in Sonar would do as supplement.
I will try Insert Time in Sonar and see how well it works as a workaround.
 
I really want my full chain of events to notation if possible - for registration purposes of songs - with least amount of effort. And since I took drum lessons two years ago and learned to read drumscore, I realized the weakness of current daw treatment. Just about all beats I come up with are triplet based. And running daw as 12/8 and translate to 4/4 triplet score is a battle.

jsg
I'm running DP 8.07 on a Windows 7 service pack 1 64-bit machine (16 GB mem) and it is working fine.  So far I've tested midi playback and editing, audio playback and editing, audio file import, bounce to disc, VST plugins (I have about 10 and they all are working including a 32-bit synth with a jbridge wrapper).  An occasional crash if I close a file too quickly with Kontakt 4 running.  If I first close the file and then close the program this resolves it.  Otherwise all is well...
 
JG
www.jerrygerber.com
 

Just mentioned two major bummers with DP for me, Waves Element synth and Metaplugin.
Metaplugin being the life saver in so many areas overcoming routing limitations in daws.
Other VI and the external instruments are fine.
Their tuts I had crashes with, might be Mac versions I downloaded or something, don't know, but no sign of that they would try to solve it either.
 
Compare with dedication from Waves, calling me(Scandinavia, sweden) from US and running TeamViewer for hours trying to nail issue I had with a plugin. Finally traced to be a bug in plugin which they are looking into now. I'll gladly pay WUP to have my tools working as I gladly pay membership by Cakewalk to have these fixes coming all the time.
 
What are Motu up too, really, now two years after launch - still with plugin scan issues?
**** happends in all software, difference is what a vendor do about it.
Cakewalk means business, to me.
 
 

I agree with Jerry about most cakewalk customers don't read music so why should they concentrate on a good notation editor! I also think that a good notation editor is beyond cakewalk's developement team talent. I say this because most of the new plugins and developement come from other companies such as Roland. I'd be willing to bet that some other company will help or just plain develope Sonar's notation editor when and if it happens.

jsg
 
So, might it be systemic to your drivers, OS setup, or some other problem. 

..and what did MOtu do to figure that out - zero, zilch, nothing - that was my point.
Addictive Keys, Magix Independent Pro, Dimension Pro, Wivi Orchestral brass, PatchworkSynth ran just fine.
Workaround to run Element was to load inside Patchwork, since you load directly from disk by yourself.
But found no workaround for Metaplugin - since both effect and synth version were listed only among effects - DP probably got confused since MetapluginSynth have audio inputs, which is VST3 only for synths.
 
But more than anything - is Motu reliable when it comes maintenance?
 
I feel Cake is more determined than anybody else - I can wait for them to improve something, if not showstoppers. So any improvement on metronome and/or notation - bond is even stronger. I'll buy up to Platinum even to get that, now running Artist. Rewire improvements targeting some notation software or internal staff view improvements.
 
Notation improvements has been on wishlist on Sonar forum since I ran Sonar 4. Maybe ripe time is now.

I'm totally agree with you. I think Staff view must be much better than now.
 
Let's go we can!
 
 
 

michael diemer

Brando

ronboy1952
I agree with Jerry about most cakewalk customers don't read music so why should they concentrate on a good notation editor! I also think that a good notation editor is beyond cakewalk's developement team talent. I say this because most of the new plugins and developement come from other companies such as Roland. I'd be willing to bet that some other company will help or just plain develope Sonar's notation editor when and if it happens.

Simplification to say most users don't read music, imo. After years of training in the conservatory of music, I am quite adept at reading and sight reading. But after years of playing in bands, I developed a better ear and improvisational skills. I compose in PRV and rarely in staff view- and when I need notation, I export midi from sonar into Notion or Progression. I've tried rewire but it is so limiting as to not be worth the trouble.
Even Jerry got by with Sonar's limitations for a lot of years before losing patience. A lot of users have found a way to get through. That said, I would guess most users have at least some basic skill in notation, chords or TAB, and would benefit from fixing long standing bugs, and bringing the staff view up to date. Most users are musicians first and foremost. I would hazard a guess that almost all users would like to at least print a reasonable lead sheet/score of their composition or interpretation. (IMO)

Good points Brando. Question for you: I am also looking to export midi at some point into Notion or Musescore to do score work there. but I 'm on 8.5, which does not have XML. Do you happen to know if exporting in midi1 will work well for a notation program?

Sure- I use midi myself to import into Notion 4 on my daw or Notion 5 for my iPad. Multi parts (type1) are imported fine but you have to decide if importing midi that works in sonar's PRV is worth editing for notation purposes versus replaying a part (in Notion) to a strict click to get clean notation. Often I find this easier than editing the Midi in Notion. I only ever print basic lead sheets (two staff piano accompaniment, (sometimes)1 staff melody, lyrics (if relevant) and chords).