mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/18 03:31:20
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There is no talk from Presonus about integrating Notion into Sudio One.
I also use Studio One. The most I expect is that there will be some form of communication developed between the. 2 programs but it won't be integration but it will be better than something like Rewire which is currently available.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Jürgen Gleisberg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/18 04:50:07
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☄ Helpfulby cparmerlee 2015/04/20 22:12:16
Hi,
ok there is no talk about integration til now.
But as you said if those two programs can communicate with each other it is much better than anything else.
Timo
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ChrisBG
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/20 21:50:46
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What I think would be great is just a better version of what is available now, with a floating toolbar that displays note markings (seriously - the drop down menu for selecting note values is wayyyyyyyy too slow), a way to write in tuplets, and a few things like that. That would be a huge, huge help for those of us that use Sonar X for soundtrack work - we need to be inputting into a sequencer. It has been very frustrating using Sonar all these years so far and not see any improvements at all. Surely it's not a huge task to do a few improvements like that. A complete overhaul would be overkill IMO. There's no need to make Sonar a publishing program too. It just needs a little attention to have a functioning MIDI staff tool. I really hope we can see something like that in the near future. I do like the layout of the staff tools and it's part of the initial reason I got so hooked on Cakewalk. You can run the staff all the way across the screen, it's a bold big font, it's actually great to work with. With a toolbar, fixes and support for writing tuplets out properly etc, it would be fantastic and I would be stoked, as I'm sure many others would be too. Please please please!!!
post edited by ChrisBG - 2015/04/20 22:02:14
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/20 23:46:24
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michael diemer
Doktor Avalanche
I believe this thread is about to become self aware...
That would be interesting. Perhaps when it does, it will write a new program and solve this mess once and for all.
Or commit suicide
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trtzbass
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/21 03:29:38
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ChrisBG
What I think would be great is just a better version of what is available now, with a floating toolbar that displays note markings (seriously - the drop down menu for selecting note values is wayyyyyyyy too slow), a way to write in tuplets, and a few things like that. That would be a huge, huge help for those of us that use Sonar X for soundtrack work - we need to be inputting into a sequencer.
this, THIS!!!
Jordan Brown - he tried to play bass www.jordanbrown.co.uk twitter.com/trtzbass trgmachine.bandcamp.com
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jatoth
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/21 08:27:16
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Thanks again Sid, for starting this thread.
With almost 13,000 views and closing in on 500 comments, maybe now Cakewalk will believe staff view IS actually relevant to more than just a few of us!
Keep it alive folks.
John X3e Producer, Sonar Platinum, Sweetwater CreationStation i5 3.1gHz, 12 GB RAM, 500GB SSD OS drive, 1TB SSD audio drive, 1TB archive/misc drive, dual 22" monitors, Windows 7x64, SaffirePro40 (firewire), MOTU MIDI Express XT, Behringer BCF2000, dbx 586, Samson Servo 120a, Yamaha HS80M, Auratone 5c Cubes, Sennheiser HD650, Sony MDR 7509HD, Sony MDR 7506, Kurzweil K2500XS, Roland XP-30, Proteus 2000.
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DRanck
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/21 09:16:49
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+1 on the floating toolbar for note length. For now I have keyboard shortcuts for that.
My Sound CloudWebsiteYoutube ChannelThe way that I've always gone about making music, the rule of thumb, has just been to make what I love. Amy Lee Sonar Pro 64 (Newburyport), Akai Pro MPK 88, i7-4770K, ASUS Z87-PRO V, 32GB SDRAM 1866, SAMSUNG 840 EVO 500GB SSD, 2 - WD BLACK 2TB, Samsung USB 3.0 SSD, Win 10 Pro 64, Radeon R9 270 Video 2GB, Dell P2314T 23" Touchscreen, Gateway 23" monitor, Presonus USB Audio Interface, Surface Pro 2 w/ Xotopad as a control surface
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/21 12:29:58
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If Cakewalk wants my 200.00 for an upgrade (still on 853 here), they will have to improve staff view. Otherwise I will continue to sit tight and wait for another company to finally produce a complete DAW. Perhaps Reaper, perhaps Presonus. Somebody is going to do it. My hope is that it's Cakewalk, but I'll emigrate to a better land if the opportunity presents itself.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/21 15:01:02
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I just bought Digital Performer 8 for Windows. I'm moving on, after 22 years with Sonar I have lost faith in the company in terms of their notation editor. Too many versions with no fixes, too many "we'll get to that in the next version". It's like the boy who cries wolf, at some point you simply stop believing him.
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/21 15:05:28
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jsg
I just bought Digital Performer 8 for Windows. I'm moving on, after 22 years with Sonar I have lost faith in the company in terms of their notation editor. Too many versions with no fixes, too many "we'll get to that in the next version". It's like the boy who cries wolf, at some point you simply stop believing him.
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
Best of luck Jerry. You're a very talented composer and arranger. Sorry to see you go, but understand your reasoning. Hope you'll stay in touch, as I still believe there are positive changes around the corner.
Brando
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DRanck
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/21 19:43:10
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And looking at the Digital Performer site, I found this: Accurate real-time MIDI transcription
If the notation display looks like a train wreck because it wasn't recorded to the metronome, DP's Adjust Beats feature lets you graphically drag beats and barlines to line them up with MIDI note data - without changing how it plays back. The result? Readable notation and time rulers that match your music That is exactly what I'd like to see in Sonar. Just saying.
My Sound CloudWebsiteYoutube ChannelThe way that I've always gone about making music, the rule of thumb, has just been to make what I love. Amy Lee Sonar Pro 64 (Newburyport), Akai Pro MPK 88, i7-4770K, ASUS Z87-PRO V, 32GB SDRAM 1866, SAMSUNG 840 EVO 500GB SSD, 2 - WD BLACK 2TB, Samsung USB 3.0 SSD, Win 10 Pro 64, Radeon R9 270 Video 2GB, Dell P2314T 23" Touchscreen, Gateway 23" monitor, Presonus USB Audio Interface, Surface Pro 2 w/ Xotopad as a control surface
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 00:17:32
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mudgel
I would be interested to know how many different posters have contributed to these 440 posts.
I counted back on page 5 when the same question was asked, it was 31 back then. Around the same time I counted 150 users over various threads. Listed in this post. http://forum.cakewalk.com...The-Bugs-m3152858.aspx
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 00:20:16
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Dan_E10
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 13:52:16
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jsg
I just bought Digital Performer 8 for Windows. I'm moving on, after 22 years with Sonar I have lost faith in the company in terms of their notation editor. Too many versions with no fixes, too many "we'll get to that in the next version". It's like the boy who cries wolf, at some point you simply stop believing him.
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
I'm sorry to hear this. I've been searching the forums to try to help me get my head around some issues I'm having with the staff view. Jerry's many posts with tips and workarounds for Sonar's staff view have been really useful. Hearing some of the amazing music he's put together with the SV has been inspiring. Best of luck to you Jerry! Dan
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pbognar
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 14:21:14
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jsg
I just bought Digital Performer 8 for Windows. I'm moving on, after 22 years with Sonar I have lost faith in the company in terms of their notation editor. Too many versions with no fixes, too many "we'll get to that in the next version". It's like the boy who cries wolf, at some point you simply stop believing him.
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
Jerry, Let me echo the sentiments from Brando and Dan_E10. As the most knowledgeable SV user and advocate, you will be sorely missed. Hopefully you will remain a member of the forum for those who need a hand. I assume you overcame the MIDI playback and notation layout issues you first reported with DP8. Best of luck to you.
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 14:35:43
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DP notation is integrated with the DAW. Avid is talking about Sibelius 8 being more integrated with Protools. Yamaha/Steinberg is hard at work with the Spreadbury project which surely will tie their premiere notation tightly with the Cubase.
Cakewalk and Finale are looking like the two odd men out. One would think there would be people with enough vision at both of those companies to want to really work together on a next generation solution. It will not be long before excellent notation is considered a basic requirement for any leading DAW.
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pbognar
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 16:29:21
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cparmerlee
DP notation is integrated with the DAW. Avid is talking about Sibelius 8 being more integrated with Protools. Yamaha/Steinberg is hard at work with the Spreadbury project which surely will tie their premiere notation tightly with the Cubase.
Cakewalk and Finale are looking like the two odd men out. One would think there would be people with enough vision at both of those companies to want to really work together on a next generation solution. It will not be long before excellent notation is considered a basic requirement for any leading DAW.
<broken_record=on> If the the triplet limitations were resolved, that would go a long way for me: The Staff view places certain limitations on the use of triplets. The limitations are:- Triplets must occur in full sets of three.
- All three steps in a triplet must be notes (no rests) of the same basic duration.
- There can be no ties in or out of, or within the triplet.
Triplets are common in music. Other tuplets would be nice, but, I figure that is asking a bit much. If MIDI data could be exported to a notation specific program, for publishing, I don't see the need to include "premier notation" within Sonar. <broken_record=off> Ultimately, as we have seen, people will vote for products with their wallets or hold out hope, for years in some cases.
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Jon Bryson
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 17:07:45
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jsg
I just bought Digital Performer 8 for Windows. I'm moving on, after 22 years with Sonar I have lost faith in the company in terms of their notation editor. Too many versions with no fixes, too many "we'll get to that in the next version". It's like the boy who cries wolf, at some point you simply stop believing him.
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
Sorry to see you go Jerry, but certainly understand. Your tips and advice have been invaluable to me. Best of luck with DP! Jon
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Paul P
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 17:35:11
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cparmerlee
DP notation is integrated with the DAW. Avid is talking about Sibelius 8 being more integrated with Protools. Yamaha/Steinberg is hard at work with the Spreadbury project which surely will tie their premiere notation tightly with the Cubase.
With the above happening and Sonar being so close to being really useful, you'd think Cakewalk would be scrambling to attract the notation customers before the others get them. I hope they are.
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vintagevibe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 17:46:51
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Paul P
cparmerlee
DP notation is integrated with the DAW. Avid is talking about Sibelius 8 being more integrated with Protools. Yamaha/Steinberg is hard at work with the Spreadbury project which surely will tie their premiere notation tightly with the Cubase.
With the above happening and Sonar being so close to being really useful, you'd think Cakewalk would be scrambling to attract the notation customers before the others get them. I hope they are.
They are not.
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Sidroe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 17:52:30
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As the OP,I never thought this thread would get this far. I must say that it is encouraging to me to know there is this much interest in getting this much needed feature fixed!
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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Jon Bryson
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 19:02:49
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Without having to search through the thread, was there ever any feedback from Cakewalk in this discussion?
Jon
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/22 23:16:43
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This is not the first time we have lost a reasonable dude because of the neglect/and stupidity of the SV.
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/23 00:13:43
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Unfortunately, there don't appear to be enough of us "notation types" for Cakewalk to give a hoot. Maybe it's really true that Sonar is geared toward the non-classically-oriented, non-music-reading musician. Please don't misunderstand, i am not being uppity here, I totally respect all musicians and what they do, however they do it. Besides, it's the result that counts. Music is sound. Notation is just one of several ways to deal with the nuts and bolts. But it is an important and time-honored way, so how can any professional DAW ignore it? It is indeed too bad that Jerry has given up. Hopefully there will not be a ripple effect, but I find myself a bit more discouraged today than yesterday, and am really wondering now if I'm in the right place.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/23 00:43:12
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michael diemer
Maybe it's really true that Sonar is geared toward the non-classically-oriented, non-music-reading musician.
That seems to be the heritage. It wouldn't have changed under Roland, and it most certainly wouldn't move toward notation under Gibson. Like you, I wish to make clear this is not a value judgment against guitar players or the natural clientele for Sonar. It is simply that notation just isn't equally relevant to all musicians. I do think it is a big strategic error for Cakewalk to evidently not understand that there really is a convergence of technologies happening here. Many more classically trained musicians are coming into the DAW world, and we really are not far from the day where a product that "only" does tracking and MIDI will be seen as a second-tier product. And that is a shame because Cakewalk has obviously put an enormous amount of effort into making this a good product at least for tracking and mixing. It is not too late for them to turn this around, but considering we don't even see an acknowledgement of the problem, it doesn't seem that this is going to be treated as a priority.
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konradh
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/23 00:55:43
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I don't understand the comments above. I am classically trained and so are most Sonar users I know personally. I don't think my circle of friends proves anything, but I would be surprised if there were a bias towards the non-trained.
When I very first bought an early copy of Cakewalk about 1,000 years ago, it was because it was not pattern-based and therefore was better for composers.
I would think non-classically-trained people would prefer EDM-oriented DAWs (Ableton or whatever).
Konrad Current album and more: http://www.themightykonrad.com/ Sonar X1d Producer. V-Studio 700. PC: Intel i7 CPU 3.07GHz, 12 GB RAM. Win 7 64-bit. RealGuitar, RealStrat, RealLPC, Ivory II, Vienna Symphonic, Hollywood Strings, Electr6ity, Acoustic Legends, FabFour, Scarbee Rick/J-Bass/P-Bass, Kontakt 5. NI Session Guitar. Boldersounds, Noisefirm. EZ Drummer 2. EZ Mix. Melodyne Assist. Guitar Rig 4. Tyros 2, JV-1080, Kurzweil PC2R, TC Helicon VoiceWorks+. Rode NT2a, EV RE20. Presonus Eureka. Rokit 6s.
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/23 01:12:05
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konradh
I am classically trained and so are most Sonar users I know personally. Of your last 10 Sonar projects, how many of them used notation heavily? It is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Sonar is not good for notation, ergo few people use it when notation is important. If Cakewalk maintains that stance while the other major DAWs move toward higher-quality, more integrated notation, this will push Sonar down into the second tier of DAWs. Even if you don't use notation much or at all, if Sonar loses ground to other products that embrace this convergence, that will ultimately hurt ALL Sonar users (and also make that subscription model untenable.)
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ChrisBG
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/23 02:56:56
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Of your last 10 Sonar projects, how many of them used notation heavily? I'm also classically trained, and I've used notation on every single project since I started using it, so thousands. I notate everything on the staff, even drum kits. You're right, and I hope they don't maintain that stance!!! It's very difficult to do some things, like tuplets, runs, etc. But as long as you're willing to dive into the piano roll to move around notes it's OK. Those of us who work with soundtracks have no other choice - writing in Sibelius/Finale and then moving over to Sonar is too slow a process. You don't have time for that when you have to deliver a track a day. You could say, OK, move to Cubase, then. And that's what lots of people have done - the thing is, there are lots of people that would consider Sonar IF they cleaned up the notation view. Lots and lots of composers for film and games write notation straight into DP or Cubase. So it's not a matter of finding out what Sonar uses notate, but finding out who else out there isn't using Sonar because of the crappy notation! I love Sonar. I really do. I've struggled through the notation changes in the X series in the hope it will one day improve. Hell, I'm even used to right clicking notes and manually typing in the duration numbers to get what I need! But I think people are running out of patience. I personally really want to support Sonar. I want to see the changes happen and wear my Sonar badge proudly! It's not asking for much. We're talking about a pretty small amount of work here - the floating toolbar wouldn't take a hell of a lot of time to implement, and it could just have the note values + ability to make notes dotted, tied, make a few basic tuplets etc. No need for visual dynamics, accents, and publishing tools -- that's not needed in a DAW. Just functional note input! it is not a huge task. A few simple adjustments would make a lot of people who have used Sonar for years very happy. Anything more would be overkill, IMO. I love the simplistic interface, the big score that goes across the screen - all the basics are there. Let's just amp it up a notch!!! Man it would be SO cool to see Sonar have this. It would be a dream come true. It would make Sonar the ultimate DAW in every way possible. It's soooo cool otherwise. I love it to bits and I really would dread having to use Cubase. I don't like it nearly as much.
post edited by ChrisBG - 2015/04/23 03:29:35
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Paul P
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/23 10:30:49
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ChrisBG
Man it would be SO cool to see Sonar have this. It would be a dream come true. It would make Sonar the ultimate DAW in every way possible.
And it might even attract new customers !
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/04/23 15:09:33
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Thanks everyone for your kind comments, I am happy I've been of help to people here, and others on this forum have helped me too. I'll probably still be around from time to time. Sonar is a great program, so is DP. There's nothing one can do that the other can't. I just need a change and need to learn new things, so I got DP. and YES! I got the midi playback issues resolved, I installed Music Labs MIDI over LAN and was able to simplify my studio and retire quite a few cables and a midi interface. The DAW talks to the dedicated VSL library computer via 4 virtual midi ports through Ethernet. It works great in both Sonar and DP. No more hanging notes, dropped notes, wrong attacks, etc. Apparently something in my signal chain or maybe even a USB issue may have been the culprit. I feel like I am getting divorced from my DAW, but we'll still be friends and I don't have to pay alimony (upgrades for something that never gets fixed). ;>) It will take me a month or so to get up to speed. DP isn't perfect, nothing we humans create is, but the notation editor is definitely better. The program has some really sophisticated midi editing tools, which is great. But the grass is always greener on the other side. It really boils down to imagination, creativity and persistence. If Cakewalk actually does ever get around to fixing notation I will take note (pun intended!). Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
post edited by jsg - 2015/04/23 21:06:28
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