1ManMusic
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/30 18:48:49
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Anderton
Jimbo 88
You know it would not be so bad if you could rewire a notation software so that notation you create (say thru midi) would transfer into Sonar.
Don't people do that already with Notion or some other program?
And FWIW, the last time this was brought I'm pretty sure someone from Cakewalk said it was not a priority for the next update.
I use the very inexpensive Noteworthy Music Software. Unlike some other programs, it does not transmogrify when exported to midi and imported into Sonar. It is the easiest music software. Users have maximum control over content. Users can write a song with uneven bars. I know. I have done it - not intentionally - not yet, anyway.
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1ManMusic
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/05/30 20:03:27
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cparmerlee
michael diemer
Orchestration is the one thing that nobody is born knowing how to do. You can study books and internalize rules, and above all, listen to the great masters; but only hearing what you have done, with as much realism as possible, is going to give to give you the necessary feedback.
My work flow is from the other end (beginning in the notation product), but we converge on the point that high-quality playback is really important for today's composer. I have two colleagues who are both good arrangers and both work with Finale a lot. In the span of 2 weeks, one of them advised me that it was best to play back in Finale's simply MIDI playback because that was the only way you could really hear the harmonies well. The other one was even more extreme. He said that he was most successful playing everything back as piano parts only.
I would never dream of doing that. That may make is easy to head bad notes (notes that are simply mistakes. But voicings must be carefully crafted to get the most musical effect. Those simple playback modes don't have a chance of helping us hear the nuances of how instruments blend and how voices work together (or not). Using the simply MIDI playback, one risks producing a poor quality orchestration that may require multiple readings by the ensemble and multiple revision before the arrangement is suitable for public presentation.
Indeed, you actually can get very realistic playback directly from Finale by using good VST libraries, and I do this every time. This allows you to hear the timbres and the interaction of overtones. Often I can produce a score that requires no revision at all -- or only minor revisions after the first reading.
In other words, it is about time and quality. Isn't everything?
The problem with the notation programs is not that they are unable to use VSTs. They do use the VSTi products if you are lucky, and that can do a good job on the viocings. But there are many other nuances that are not so successful directly within the notation programs. For example, swing feel or breathing/bowing just may not sound quite right without some detailed adjustments to the MIDI. And of course, some additional DAW-style processing can help tremendously. For example, it would often be desirable to use a ducking compression technique if a piece features a solo instrument or voice. And I have often wished I could have automation of track volume/velocity within the notation program in order to bring out the important lines a little more than is indicated by the printed dynamic markings.
Basically, I see this as two sides of the same coin. One world (DAW and notation), not two separate domains. That's the kind of flexibility we need regardless of which platform we use as our base for composition.
When I sit down to compose, my ideas are for small and larger ensembles. I have written big band, string quartet and smaller ensemble music in the general classical style as well as both contemporary and classic jazz. I guess everyone has their own composing style, but remember, Mozart did not always have the luxury of his good friend Haydn, a "house band" to flesh out his musical ideas. In fact by his own hand, we know that Beethoven composed and orchestrated from what he heard in his mind - especially at the end of his career and life, when he composed almost completely deaf. What I am saying is this, that what I have learned from most of my readings of the composing masters is that they already heard the instrumentation and orchestration for the pieces when or as they set out to compose. Of course refinements (except in Mozart's case) were made once the piece was performed (Mozart reportedly merely transcribed whole works from his head to paper). I have suggested to those who have similar frustration as even I had that they use Noteworthy Music Composer, which has worked extremely well for me. Usually what I compose in Noteworthy is at least substantially orchestrated there and once exported to midi and imported to Sonar, my ideas are reinforced. No, the midi synths in Noteworthy are not as refined as those in Sonar and other suites (for a class I had to sin and use Cubase Elements - still making penitence for that - 'cause I liked it). However, they give me enough to supplement with my own inner musical ear to know what the actual instruments will sound like even before I export to Sonar. Based on the history of music, having the most discreet synths does not an orchestrator make. Thus I have to conclude that at this point you are being a bit (and I say this more humorously with no malicious intent whatsoever) of a brat on this one - although I too wish Sonar would at least somehow link up with Noteworthy and create a mutually enriching partnership. Isn't this how Bill Gates built Office, Windows Media Center, Windows Media Player and others? I know Microsoft got sued on some of theseand had to pull back some, but in other cases where there was a mutually beneficial agreement and enough money changing hands, the original developers retired very happy in their 20s and 30s - and Microsoft is ubiquitous. How about a time when Pro Tools's next update is to make it possible to use its files in Sonar, the industry standard?
Leon de Vose, II Sax, Percussion, Composer, ProducerB.A. Music, Rutgers University, 2013
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/19 11:16:45
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pbognar
So as not to soil another forum thread, I will post some thoughts here.
If Cakewalk is concerned about the ROI of fixing the triplet issues in the SV, I must conclude that the code is unmaintainble, and a full rewrite would be required. If that's the case, then I understand why we may never see any fixes.
If voting for DAW software / features is done with dollars toward purchases or upgrades, it would not be in my best interest to upgrade Sonar at this point. I would be sending the wrong message. I will wait for a release which has the fixes and features which are important to me, or I will move on to something else which emerges as a suitable replacement.
I am dismayed at the years of silence from Cakewalk regarding the SV triplet issue. There is at least one other DAW application out there, where the Devs have indicated that their SV is in development, but will not be present in the next major release, rathther, more likely in the dot release following it. How refreshing.
Seriously thinking about joining Jerry on the DP path. I am concerned that most of the enhancements to Sonar are add-ons, not changes to the core functionality in areas of Midi (especially staff view) but also video. I am paid up with SPlat through early next year, so this is not going to be a knee jerk. It seems to me that Cake can occupy themselves adding and fixing CCC, mix recall, drum replacer, vocal alignment tool, the new .,?!/;'n start page, etc and never get to fixing core functionality, which is more in-line with my needs. (To be fair, Cake have also done a great job of fixing bugs, and the audio engine is excellent.) DP crossgrade is pretty attractive at $395. Would be equal or less than the cost of next year's SPlat membership plus whatever I would pick up for notation (already have Notion and Progression) and Vegas (low end) or other video editor/converter. DP has a 30 day demo which I am going to try out. Only concern is whether I am going to like the trial enough to want to jump sooner. Hoping Cake have something up their sleeves with respect to video, and midi before end of the year. Even touch is largely abandoned.
post edited by Brando - 2015/06/19 11:25:17
Brando
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/19 12:30:16
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Yeah thay have been aware and postponed tacking the issues for years now, yet other stuff get fixed in line with their plans. Cleary thier is a deeper issue with the codeing that they aren't willing to delve into for some reason.
I'm not going to say I won't be renewing in January next year, as they may offer me something that's too tempting. IF I saw something seriously done about staff view iun the next 7 months, then re-signing wouldn't be questionable, that would have renewed my faith.
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/19 12:35:56
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Leon de Vose, II said:"When I sit down to compose, my ideas are for small and larger ensembles. I have written big band, string quartet and smaller ensemble music in the general classical style as well as both contemporary and classic jazz. I guess everyone has their own composing style, but remember, Mozart did not always have the luxury of his good friend Haydn, a "house band" to flesh out his musical ideas. In fact by his own hand, we know that Beethoven composed and orchestrated from what he heard in his mind - especially at the end of his career and life, when he composed almost completely deaf.What I am saying is this, that what I have learned from most of my readings of the composing masters is that they already heard the instrumentation and orchestration for the pieces when or as they set out to compose. Of course refinements (except in Mozart's case) were made once the piece was performed (Mozart reportedly merely transcribed whole works from his head to paper). I have suggested to those who have similar frustration as even I had that they use Noteworthy Music Composer, which has worked extremely well for me. Usually what I compose in Noteworthy is at least substantially orchestrated there and once exported to midi and imported to Sonar, my ideas are reinforced. No, the midi synths in Noteworthy are not as refined as those in Sonar and other suites (for a class I had to sin and use Cubase Elements - still making penitence for that - 'cause I liked it). However, they give me enough to supplement with my own inner musical ear to know what the actual instruments will sound like even before I export to Sonar. Based on the history of music, having the most discreet synths does not an orchestrator make. Thus I have to conclude that at this point you are being a bit (and I say this more humorously with no malicious intent whatsoever) of a brat on this one - although I too wish Sonar would at least somehow link up with Noteworthy and create a mutually enriching partnership. Isn't this how Bill Gates built Office, Windows Media Center, Windows Media Player and others? I know Microsoft got sued on some of theseand had to pull back some, but in other cases where there was a mutually beneficial agreement and enough money changing hands, the original developers retired very happy in their 20s and 30s - and Microsoft is ubiquitous. How about a time when Pro Tools's next update is to make it possible to use its files in Sonar, the industry standard?" Not sure who you are calling a brat here, so I'll let that slide, although I thought name-calling was a no-no on most forums (excuse me, that's "fora." I'm talking to an educated person here, someone with letters after their name). Of course orchestration must be learned by studying basic principles, which take into account acoustics, music theory and the natural quirks of the instruments (which often conflict with acoustical science - pianos for instance, which have to be tuned equal-temperament, to accommodate the distortions common to stringed instruments). If you attempt to use a sequencer to orchestrate, and have no idea how to orchestrate , your music will probably be unplayable. And listening to the great masters, and studying their scores, is of course highly recommended. But for someone who takes the time to first understand orchestration, and then uses a sequencer to provide the feedback, it can work. Like everything, it's a learning process, and it never ends. As the technology improves, the feedback improves, and provides a truer reflection of one's ideas. I and others here dream of the day when sequencers and notation have truly merged, and we can work in one program from start to finish. DP, Cubase, PT and Logic are the sequencers that are closest. The notation programs are getting there as well from the other direction. There is no good reason these two softwares have to be mutually exclusive. It's just a matter of time. Sonar will eventually be forced to follow the curve if it wants to remain viable.
post edited by michael diemer - 2015/06/19 12:43:58
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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Jimbo 88
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/19 12:43:19
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+1 to the last 2 posts. I would have jumped to DP8, but DP8 does not handle VSTs and mixing as quickly as Sonar and I find comfort in spitting out the final product quickly under heavy time constraints. If Sonar picked up some slack in the notation area and added something like streamers in DP8 I would never think about leaving Sonar.
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eph221
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/19 12:50:22
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I agree, it seems like an obvious direction. Finale got bought by some sports company (the parent company). It'd be nice if cakewalk just worked out something with them and brought finale back to musicians. It's the last frontier of the perfect DAW. I don't know why nobody pursues it.
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/19 13:17:21
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eph221
I don't know why nobody pursues it.
Well, I surmise these are the priorities when you are dealing with what is principally a guitar company. The Gibson acquisition has been great in many respects, but it is probably unrealistic to expect there are very many people within Gibson who think much about written music, or even understand that a DAW isn't just for garage bands and church bands. I'd like to think I am wrong about that, but I don't think so. I certainly think Finale would fit much better in the same group as Sonar than in its current home. The company that bailed out Finale is mainly involved in developing software used for athletic training. When the acquisition happened, the new CEO went to some length to tell the long-time Finale users how composing and producing music is just like athletic training. (paraphrasing) "You have to get in enough reps, and abracadabra, out comes a symphony. Now get down on the floor and give me 50 semiquavers. Fortissimo!!!" So I don't think anybody expects much from this outfit. They closed the long-term offices in Minneapolis and took a few of the Finale people to Boulder and then hired a few more, but they haven't produced anything in the year since this happened. There might have been one tiny patch (just a couple of bug fixes for a product that has hundreds of serious bugs) before the moving van shoved off for Colorado. They are talking about releasing "Finale 2014.5" and actually calling it that, oblivious to the fact that we are now halfway through 2015. That statement came out 3 or 4 months ago, and nothing has come of it.
post edited by cparmerlee - 2015/06/19 13:43:39
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kitekrazy1
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/19 13:44:28
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eph221
I agree, it seems like an obvious direction. Finale got bought by some sports company (the parent company). It'd be nice if cakewalk just worked out something with them and brought finale back to musicians. It's the last frontier of the perfect DAW. I don't know why nobody pursues it.
Too expensive. It would be in the price range of Nuendo or passing Pro Tools. You lock out the hobbyist and greatly reduce revenue.
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/19 14:23:11
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☄ Helpfulby jatoth 2015/06/19 22:01:57
Also if the acquisition leads to nothing more than an add-in app connected by Rewire, what's the point? We can do that now, and with our choice of notation apps. Most users just want the staff view features to all work the way they were intended to work (or once did).
Brando
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mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/20 06:03:19
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Brando
pbognar
So as not to soil another forum thread, I will post some thoughts here.
If Cakewalk is concerned about the ROI of fixing the triplet issues in the SV, I must conclude that the code is unmaintainble, and a full rewrite would be required. If that's the case, then I understand why we may never see any fixes.
If voting for DAW software / features is done with dollars toward purchases or upgrades, it would not be in my best interest to upgrade Sonar at this point. I would be sending the wrong message. I will wait for a release which has the fixes and features which are important to me, or I will move on to something else which emerges as a suitable replacement.
I am dismayed at the years of silence from Cakewalk regarding the SV triplet issue. There is at least one other DAW application out there, where the Devs have indicated that their SV is in development, but will not be present in the next major release, rathther, more likely in the dot release following it. How refreshing.
Seriously thinking about joining Jerry on the DP path. I am concerned that most of the enhancements to Sonar are add-ons, not changes to the core functionality in areas of Midi (especially staff view) but also video. I am paid up with SPlat through early next year, so this is not going to be a knee jerk. It seems to me that Cake can occupy themselves adding and fixing CCC, mix recall, drum replacer, vocal alignment tool, the new .,?!/;'n start page, etc and never get to fixing core functionality, which is more in-line with my needs. (To be fair, Cake have also done a great job of fixing bugs, and the audio engine is excellent.) DP crossgrade is pretty attractive at $395. Would be equal or less than the cost of next year's SPlat membership plus whatever I would pick up for notation (already have Notion and Progression) and Vegas (low end) or other video editor/converter.
DP has a 30 day demo which I am going to try out. Only concern is whether I am going to like the trial enough to want to jump sooner. Hoping Cake have something up their sleeves with respect to video, and midi before end of the year. Even touch is largely abandoned.
Before you go joining Jerry on his journey, you should maybe read his post here on the Sonar forum where he discusses his return and why. http://forum.cakewalk.com...ar-Again-m3241939.aspx
post edited by mudgel - 2015/06/20 06:16:49
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eph221
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/20 08:02:07
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kitekrazy1
eph221
I agree, it seems like an obvious direction. Finale got bought by some sports company (the parent company). It'd be nice if cakewalk just worked out something with them and brought finale back to musicians. It's the last frontier of the perfect DAW. I don't know why nobody pursues it.
Too expensive. It would be in the price range of Nuendo or passing Pro Tools. You lock out the hobbyist and greatly reduce revenue.
Pro tools hasn't locked out the hobbyist, not in the least. But who am I to tell others how to run their business? I've followed cakewalk and finale since there very first iterations. It's been a fun ride, sort of like watching the kids grow up. Bless.
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/20 12:42:46
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mudgel
Brando
pbognar
So as not to soil another forum thread, I will post some thoughts here.
If Cakewalk is concerned about the ROI of fixing the triplet issues in the SV, I must conclude that the code is unmaintainble, and a full rewrite would be required. If that's the case, then I understand why we may never see any fixes.
If voting for DAW software / features is done with dollars toward purchases or upgrades, it would not be in my best interest to upgrade Sonar at this point. I would be sending the wrong message. I will wait for a release which has the fixes and features which are important to me, or I will move on to something else which emerges as a suitable replacement.
I am dismayed at the years of silence from Cakewalk regarding the SV triplet issue. There is at least one other DAW application out there, where the Devs have indicated that their SV is in development, but will not be present in the next major release, rathther, more likely in the dot release following it. How refreshing.
Seriously thinking about joining Jerry on the DP path. I am concerned that most of the enhancements to Sonar are add-ons, not changes to the core functionality in areas of Midi (especially staff view) but also video. I am paid up with SPlat through early next year, so this is not going to be a knee jerk. It seems to me that Cake can occupy themselves adding and fixing CCC, mix recall, drum replacer, vocal alignment tool, the new .,?!/;'n start page, etc and never get to fixing core functionality, which is more in-line with my needs. (To be fair, Cake have also done a great job of fixing bugs, and the audio engine is excellent.) DP crossgrade is pretty attractive at $395. Would be equal or less than the cost of next year's SPlat membership plus whatever I would pick up for notation (already have Notion and Progression) and Vegas (low end) or other video editor/converter.
DP has a 30 day demo which I am going to try out. Only concern is whether I am going to like the trial enough to want to jump sooner. Hoping Cake have something up their sleeves with respect to video, and midi before end of the year. Even touch is largely abandoned.
Before you go joining Jerry on his journey, you should maybe read his post here on the Sonar forum where he discusses his return and why.
http://forum.cakewalk.com...ar-Again-m3241939.aspx
I already did and replied to him in that thread thanks. But things like small font size are less of a concern to me, as is multiple staff composition. A simple 4-6 part staff view is perfect for me. Jerry's requirements are significantly different and I always suspected he'd struggle given his years of familiarity with Sonar - it boils down to work flow. In my own case my current curiosity about DP8 is largely driven by the fact that most of the enhancements in SPlat are things I am not interested in - the bug fixes have been great, and SPlat runs like a top. That's something. The add-ins and tack-ons less so (in my personal case only). There is definitely a "greener grass" aspect to my curiosity with DP. I have been loyal to SONAR and Cake for years. It may be as Jerry found, just greener grass - but I intend to find out. My biggest concern with SPlat is that "enhancements" coming up are for drum replacement, CCC, start view, etc, which didn't even exist in X3 - cake rolls out a new feature, then promptly fixes it in a subsequent month. How about Touch? - Cake touted it as the next big thing and then promptly abandoned it. I bought a touchscreen monitor and can't do basic touch functions in SPlat that I can do in Windows. Anyway, nothing about either Studio 1 or Cubase has interested me so far, but DP's emphasis on composition and video seems to be the right emphasis for my needs. I'll see if the reality matches the hype. Apologies for the lengthy response. (Edit) actually Cubase looks awesome but I hate the concept of the dongle. Might be time to rethink that too.
post edited by Brando - 2015/06/20 13:24:09
Brando
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vintagevibe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/21 00:00:14
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Brando
I already did and replied to him in that thread thanks. But things like small font size are less of a concern to me, as is multiple staff composition. A simple 4-6 part staff view is perfect for me. Jerry's requirements are significantly different and I always suspected he'd struggle given his years of familiarity with Sonar - it boils down to work flow. In my own case my current curiosity about DP8 is largely driven by the fact that most of the enhancements in SPlat are things I am not interested in - the bug fixes have been great, and SPlat runs like a top. That's something. The add-ins and tack-ons less so (in my personal case only).
There is definitely a "greener grass" aspect to my curiosity with DP. I have been loyal to SONAR and Cake for years. It may be as Jerry found, just greener grass - but I intend to find out.
My biggest concern with SPlat is that "enhancements" coming up are for drum replacement, CCC, start view, etc, which didn't even exist in X3 - cake rolls out a new feature, then promptly fixes it in a subsequent month.
How about Touch? - Cake touted it as the next big thing and then promptly abandoned it. I bought a touchscreen monitor and can't do basic touch functions in SPlat that I can do in Windows.
Anyway, nothing about either Studio 1 or Cubase has interested me so far, but DP's emphasis on composition and video seems to be the right emphasis for my needs.
I'll see if the reality matches the hype.
Apologies for the lengthy response.
(Edit) actually Cubase looks awesome but I hate the concept of the dongle. Might be time to rethink that too.
I'm in the same boat, Brando. After many years of Cakewalk sending out notation surveys and never improving it, along with stability issues, I made the switch to Cubase. Cubase notation is by far the most advanced in any DAW. It does some pretty cool things that even Sibelius can't do. I don't like the dongle either but it's a small price to pay for the notation and MIDI power I have now. I don't need to use keyswitches any more, I can just pull articulations from a menu and put them in the score. Very cool stuff. Another thing is that Steinberg is working on a dongle-less solution but no one knows when it will be implemented. I avoided switching from Cakewalk/Sonar for years hoping for usable notation and the switch took some effort but was the only solution for notation and turned out to be well worth it. p.s. Daring to say such things here usually results in hate and even profanity aimed at me. Try not to get caught up in it. It's just how this forum is.
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mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/21 03:07:23
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Brando
mudgel
Brando
pbognar
So as not to soil another forum thread, I will post some thoughts here.
If Cakewalk is concerned about the ROI of fixing the triplet issues in the SV, I must conclude that the code is unmaintainble, and a full rewrite would be required. If that's the case, then I understand why we may never see any fixes.
If voting for DAW software / features is done with dollars toward purchases or upgrades, it would not be in my best interest to upgrade Sonar at this point. I would be sending the wrong message. I will wait for a release which has the fixes and features which are important to me, or I will move on to something else which emerges as a suitable replacement.
I am dismayed at the years of silence from Cakewalk regarding the SV triplet issue. There is at least one other DAW application out there, where the Devs have indicated that their SV is in development, but will not be present in the next major release, rathther, more likely in the dot release following it. How refreshing.
Seriously thinking about joining Jerry on the DP path. I am concerned that most of the enhancements to Sonar are add-ons, not changes to the core functionality in areas of Midi (especially staff view) but also video. I am paid up with SPlat through early next year, so this is not going to be a knee jerk. It seems to me that Cake can occupy themselves adding and fixing CCC, mix recall, drum replacer, vocal alignment tool, the new .,?!/;'n start page, etc and never get to fixing core functionality, which is more in-line with my needs. (To be fair, Cake have also done a great job of fixing bugs, and the audio engine is excellent.) DP crossgrade is pretty attractive at $395. Would be equal or less than the cost of next year's SPlat membership plus whatever I would pick up for notation (already have Notion and Progression) and Vegas (low end) or other video editor/converter.
DP has a 30 day demo which I am going to try out. Only concern is whether I am going to like the trial enough to want to jump sooner. Hoping Cake have something up their sleeves with respect to video, and midi before end of the year. Even touch is largely abandoned.
Before you go joining Jerry on his journey, you should maybe read his post here on the Sonar forum where he discusses his return and why.
http://forum.cakewalk.com...ar-Again-m3241939.aspx
I already did and replied to him in that thread thanks. But things like small font size are less of a concern to me, as is multiple staff composition. A simple 4-6 part staff view is perfect for me. Jerry's requirements are significantly different and I always suspected he'd struggle given his years of familiarity with Sonar - it boils down to work flow. In my own case my current curiosity about DP8 is largely driven by the fact that most of the enhancements in SPlat are things I am not interested in - the bug fixes have been great, and SPlat runs like a top. That's something. The add-ins and tack-ons less so (in my personal case only).
There is definitely a "greener grass" aspect to my curiosity with DP. I have been loyal to SONAR and Cake for years. It may be as Jerry found, just greener grass - but I intend to find out.
My biggest concern with SPlat is that "enhancements" coming up are for drum replacement, CCC, start view, etc, which didn't even exist in X3 - cake rolls out a new feature, then promptly fixes it in a subsequent month.
How about Touch? - Cake touted it as the next big thing and then promptly abandoned it. I bought a touchscreen monitor and can't do basic touch functions in SPlat that I can do in Windows.
Anyway, nothing about either Studio 1 or Cubase has interested me so far, but DP's emphasis on composition and video seems to be the right emphasis for my needs.
I'll see if the reality matches the hype.
Apologies for the lengthy response.
(Edit) actually Cubase looks awesome but I hate the concept of the dongle. Might be time to rethink that too.
I'm glad you already saw and commented in Jerrys thread. Just wanted to post about it here. No need to apologise to me. I don't see these things as a matter of loyalty as I use the tools I see fit it's my dollar, my choice as it is yours. I've made my choices.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/21 08:44:34
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vintagevibe
Brando
I already did and replied to him in that thread thanks. But things like small font size are less of a concern to me, as is multiple staff composition. A simple 4-6 part staff view is perfect for me. Jerry's requirements are significantly different and I always suspected he'd struggle given his years of familiarity with Sonar - it boils down to work flow. In my own case my current curiosity about DP8 is largely driven by the fact that most of the enhancements in SPlat are things I am not interested in - the bug fixes have been great, and SPlat runs like a top. That's something. The add-ins and tack-ons less so (in my personal case only).
There is definitely a "greener grass" aspect to my curiosity with DP. I have been loyal to SONAR and Cake for years. It may be as Jerry found, just greener grass - but I intend to find out.
My biggest concern with SPlat is that "enhancements" coming up are for drum replacement, CCC, start view, etc, which didn't even exist in X3 - cake rolls out a new feature, then promptly fixes it in a subsequent month.
How about Touch? - Cake touted it as the next big thing and then promptly abandoned it. I bought a touchscreen monitor and can't do basic touch functions in SPlat that I can do in Windows.
Anyway, nothing about either Studio 1 or Cubase has interested me so far, but DP's emphasis on composition and video seems to be the right emphasis for my needs.
I'll see if the reality matches the hype.
Apologies for the lengthy response.
(Edit) actually Cubase looks awesome but I hate the concept of the dongle. Might be time to rethink that too.
I'm in the same boat, Brando. After many years of Cakewalk sending out notation surveys and never improving it, along with stability issues, I made the switch to Cubase. Cubase notation is by far the most advanced in any DAW. It does some pretty cool things that even Sibelius can't do. I don't like the dongle either but it's a small price to pay for the notation and MIDI power I have now. I don't need to use keyswitches any more, I can just pull articulations from a menu and put them in the score. Very cool stuff. Another thing is that Steinberg is working on a dongle-less solution but no one knows when it will be implemented. I avoided switching from Cakewalk/Sonar for years hoping for usable notation and the switch took some effort but was the only solution for notation and turned out to be well worth it.
p.s. Daring to say such things here usually results in hate and even profanity aimed at me. Try not to get caught up in it. It's just how this forum is.
Hi VintageVibe - thanks for the comments. Stability has rarely been an issue with SONAR for me. It has performed very well, and in that respect, Platinum is the best performer so far. I have regularly updated since 8.0 - about every other update prior to that since SONAR XL. Anytime I've had an issue it has usually been attributable to an "iffy" plug, etc. I've had my present DAW for a long while and it is solid and I keep it clean, up to date and dedicated for SONAR. Regarding personal attacks, I've never (so far) received any, unless I've initiated them myself - in that respect a forum is just a little slice of life. I don't have any intention of being critical of Cakewalk or SONAR except to extend my viewpoint that there seems to be a divergence occurring between the development with Platinum and where "it looks like" other DAWS are headed. (These are outlined in my posts above). As I alluded to previously, this may be a "Grass is greener" viewpoint that only checking them out more closely will confirm. Cheers - best of luck
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/21 08:45:37
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mudgel
Brando
mudgel
Brando
pbognar
So as not to soil another forum thread, I will post some thoughts here.
If Cakewalk is concerned about the ROI of fixing the triplet issues in the SV, I must conclude that the code is unmaintainble, and a full rewrite would be required. If that's the case, then I understand why we may never see any fixes.
If voting for DAW software / features is done with dollars toward purchases or upgrades, it would not be in my best interest to upgrade Sonar at this point. I would be sending the wrong message. I will wait for a release which has the fixes and features which are important to me, or I will move on to something else which emerges as a suitable replacement.
I am dismayed at the years of silence from Cakewalk regarding the SV triplet issue. There is at least one other DAW application out there, where the Devs have indicated that their SV is in development, but will not be present in the next major release, rathther, more likely in the dot release following it. How refreshing.
Seriously thinking about joining Jerry on the DP path. I am concerned that most of the enhancements to Sonar are add-ons, not changes to the core functionality in areas of Midi (especially staff view) but also video. I am paid up with SPlat through early next year, so this is not going to be a knee jerk. It seems to me that Cake can occupy themselves adding and fixing CCC, mix recall, drum replacer, vocal alignment tool, the new .,?!/;'n start page, etc and never get to fixing core functionality, which is more in-line with my needs. (To be fair, Cake have also done a great job of fixing bugs, and the audio engine is excellent.) DP crossgrade is pretty attractive at $395. Would be equal or less than the cost of next year's SPlat membership plus whatever I would pick up for notation (already have Notion and Progression) and Vegas (low end) or other video editor/converter.
DP has a 30 day demo which I am going to try out. Only concern is whether I am going to like the trial enough to want to jump sooner. Hoping Cake have something up their sleeves with respect to video, and midi before end of the year. Even touch is largely abandoned.
Before you go joining Jerry on his journey, you should maybe read his post here on the Sonar forum where he discusses his return and why.
http://forum.cakewalk.com...ar-Again-m3241939.aspx
I already did and replied to him in that thread thanks. But things like small font size are less of a concern to me, as is multiple staff composition. A simple 4-6 part staff view is perfect for me. Jerry's requirements are significantly different and I always suspected he'd struggle given his years of familiarity with Sonar - it boils down to work flow. In my own case my current curiosity about DP8 is largely driven by the fact that most of the enhancements in SPlat are things I am not interested in - the bug fixes have been great, and SPlat runs like a top. That's something. The add-ins and tack-ons less so (in my personal case only).
There is definitely a "greener grass" aspect to my curiosity with DP. I have been loyal to SONAR and Cake for years. It may be as Jerry found, just greener grass - but I intend to find out.
My biggest concern with SPlat is that "enhancements" coming up are for drum replacement, CCC, start view, etc, which didn't even exist in X3 - cake rolls out a new feature, then promptly fixes it in a subsequent month.
How about Touch? - Cake touted it as the next big thing and then promptly abandoned it. I bought a touchscreen monitor and can't do basic touch functions in SPlat that I can do in Windows.
Anyway, nothing about either Studio 1 or Cubase has interested me so far, but DP's emphasis on composition and video seems to be the right emphasis for my needs.
I'll see if the reality matches the hype.
Apologies for the lengthy response.
(Edit) actually Cubase looks awesome but I hate the concept of the dongle. Might be time to rethink that too.
I'm glad you already saw and commented in Jerrys thread. Just wanted to post about it here. No need to apologise to me. I don't see these things as a matter of loyalty as I use the tools I see fit it's my dollar, my choice as it is yours.
I've made my choices.
Thanks Mudgel
Brando
Cakewalk, Studio One Pro, Reaper Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL ASUS Prime Z370-A LGA1151, 32GB DDR4, Intel 8700K i7, 500 GB SSD, 3 x 1TB HDD, Windows 10 Pro 64
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havemose
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/21 09:41:29
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denverdrummer
+1 for fixing the Staff view. I've been using Muse Score for note editing mostly because it's free, and can convert to Midi and import in Sonar, but it would be nice just to do notation score direct in Sonar. []
That's what I do as well. In the "Feedback Loop" Forums I made a suggestion regarding MuseScore two-way integration. There is really no reason for CW to actually code a new staff view, just like they provide plugins for the majority of the instruments and effects functionality. "http://forum.cakewalk.com/Staff-View-Fix-The-Bugs-m3152858.aspx" Maybe we should start a Feedback Loop feature request thread and be explicit.
post edited by havemose - 2015/06/21 09:48:52
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mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/21 19:59:11
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in light of this long thread it can be easy for the actual details to get lost in the conversation. From my recollection 2 forum members tried to condense the various requests and distil a list of achievable gains as far as urgent fixes and modest enhancements go. Sadly both of those efforts failed buried under the noise and insistence that no one is listening and the dogged belief that nothing will ever get done about anything notation related.
Its pretty typical of forums (a slice of life) that the desire to complain can often be greater than the desire to participate in constructive dialog. Before long someone comes along and vents their spleen and sees matters as personal. I'm not pointing any fingers or mentioning names lets just say that while this thread has gone on for 679 posts it could all have been put into far less space.
Will this thread bring about a change? I don't know but I can tell you that cakewalk do listen. There have been a number of fixes to notation just recently but instead of accepting them graciously some have chosen to bring up an irrelevant past that really doesn't have any bearing on the present Cakewalk. The cakewalk we have today is a far more responsive and cooperative organisation.
I hope there are notation improvements but like many others I've made choices how I handle my needs in this area. Meanwhile I maintain my hope that Cakewalk will improve notation. there is far more going on in Sonar that suits me than any other single DAW and I can do about 95% of what I want/need.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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saharmohamedali
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/23 22:49:27
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I use the very inexpensive Noteworthy Music Software. Unlike some other programs, it does not transmogrify when exported to midi and imported into Sonar. It is the easiest music software. Users have maximum control over content. Users can write a song with uneven bars. I know. I have done it - not intentionally - not yet, anyway.
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Abheeru
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Re: No notation fixes! (now with link)
2015/06/24 01:07:28
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Below are two short excerpts from an unfortunately still relevant notation forum exchange dating back 6 YEARS! And there are of course much, much older ones which had led me to totally give up on any meaningful notation updates. Yet this current gigantic notation post with actual acknowledgment and replies from Cakewalk (OMG!!) gives me a faint hope that something significant might actually be considered and shall I dare say it; implemented..... ----------------------------------------------------- "[...] I have often posted on forums and answered Cakewalk surveys just to express my frustration on Cakewalk/Sonar notation before. On the Sonar forum, Gusfmm has published one of the BEST post on notation (below) I have ever read! Why... of course because his clarity but mostly because of the YouTube link. Watching this video is HUGELY PAINFUL as a Sonar user!!! " ------------------------------------------------ "[...] Again Bakers, not sure why such fixation about Sibelius and Avid. You keep insinuating that somebody is asking for Sibelius-like functionality built into SONAR. Just to clarify - nobody is asking for that. I thought it could be instructive for some to refer to this video to try to get a flavor for what (at least) I would like to see CW implement: http ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqDK2Rhpb3g (Staff view starts at 1:00) You know what part of the problem is, that this has been for so long neglected, that the cost to develop and build something like this into SONAR is most likely high enough for Cakewalk to be quite reluctant to entertain the idea at this point. Quite a shame."
post edited by Abheeru - 2015/06/24 20:52:13
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Sidroe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/24 09:18:15
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As the original poster of this thread, I feel somewhat like an astronaut that left for Mars leaving behind a newborn and returning to find the child has graduated college! I am shocked that this thread has gotten such a huge response. On the other hand, I am appalled that there has been little response from the bakers about fixing SV. I remember a few years ago if you mentioned notation you were shunned for a while. I am so glad to see this great interest in writing and reading music again. Maybe there is a future for us old dot readers after all! LOL
Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/24 19:57:10
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Sidroe
As the original poster of this thread, ... I am shocked that this thread has gotten such a huge response.
I am not. What we have is a world outside Cakewalk that is moving toward convergence on many levels. Inside the Cakewalk (and now Gibson) cocoon, there seems to be far more interest in achieving "the perfect waveform". Nobody stands still. When the world changes so quickly, if you stand still, you are in fact changed by your surroundings. With the Sonar emphasis so single-minded on "the waveform" so to speak, Sonar is becoming more and more specialized, only because other products are expanding their sphere of interest. Some products are more open to real time performance. Some products are more open to the full spectrum of composing/orchestration, including a notation-centric work flow. I share your disappointment in the lack of commitment or even commentary from Cakewalk. It is reasonable that a person should interpret that silence as a statement that the company intends to continue in its specialized role, a shrinking niche. But to be fair, this thread sends many mixed messages. One might read many of the posts and conclude that the only thing needed is better handling of triplets. I think the problem is really bigger than that, needing a more strategic response.
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
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pbognar
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/24 20:07:15
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cparmerlee
Sidroe
As the original poster of this thread, ... I am shocked that this thread has gotten such a huge response.
But to be fair, this thread sends many mixed messages. One might read many of the posts and conclude that the only thing needed is better handling of triplets. I think the problem is really bigger than that, needing a more strategic response.
Ahh, but on a purely technical level, if they can fix the triplet issue, it means that anything is possible (at least within the staff view).
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Abheeru
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/24 20:21:51
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Would appreciate anyone expaining why the Youtube link in my previous post (#681) not published?
Thanks,
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mettelus
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/24 20:26:52
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Links will only post if a user's post count is more than 25, I believe. You can get around that by inserting spaces into it (so it doesn't appear as a hyperlink).
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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Abheeru
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/24 20:46:03
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Thanks mettelus:
http ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqDK2Rhpb3g
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/24 21:25:08
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Abheeru
http ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqDK2Rhpb3g
That's very interesting. And remember that Steinberg/Yamaha is also working on a major new notation program that goes beyond the Cubase capabilities. The degree of integration between the new program and Cubase is unclear at this stage, but there are many obvious opportunities for making the programs seamless. That video talks about the work flow that begins with composition in the DAW. There is also the opposite workflow that begins with composition in the notation program and then uses DAW capability to tweak the MIDI for the most realistic playback.
DAW: SONAR Platinum Audio I/F: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 gen2
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/24 21:54:20
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☄ Helpfulby SF_Green 2015/06/25 00:11:07
Given the astonishing level of accelerated development that computer science and technology has undergone over the past 32 years (MIDI first hit the scene in 1983) I think that DAWS are incredible tools, all of them, and we should get some perspective. It's not really what DAW you work in, it's what you do with it and how you do it. All DAWs do three things: 1) record, edit and playback MIDI, 2) record, edit and playback audio and 3) handle plugins-- instrument and signal processing. That's about it. You can have the best DAW, the finest outboard gear, etc. and still make crappy music that has little nuance, depth, clarity, punch, power, groove, drive, beauty, sense of the sacred, sense of the ancient, sense of the cosmic, catchiness, dreaminess, heroic passages, contemplative passages, humor, originality, authenticity and/or the numerous other qualities and values that cause us to love music so much. There are no perfect tools because nothing humans make is perfect, as we ourselves are imperfect. The digital musical tools we have nowadays are incredible musical instruments. If one is always hoping for the next-best-thing-around-the-corner thinking that will help them make better music, I think that is a delusion. Better recordings? Maybe, depending upon the ears, talent and skills of the producer and engineer. But better music? That come from living better, from thinking better, from feeling better and from, I hate to say it, from the same source that honesty, truth, love, compassion and all good vibrations come from. Each person gets to decide what that source is and what it means to them. I've had numerous composition and classical theory students who are computer engineers, both in software and hardware. They are usually excellent students, always curious, sincere, motivated and eager to learn. I cannot imagine how difficult and detailed writing a DAW must be. It's not just the number of lines of code, but the thought, creativity, design, planning, testing and decisions that went into it. And for what purpose? To serve music!! What a great way to use one's computer talents. If we could only get all the nuclear bomb programmers to change their roles and start making software to advance the arts, humanities and social justice, then maybe science and technology won't be in the hands of the dark forces that may screw it up for all of us. The triplet issue may, or may not, ever be dealt with, I don't really know. I do know that when I am inspired and composing, it's a minor detail that has no impact on how I write. I too have been critical of Sonar's notational limits, but in some ways Sonar's notation editor is quite good, compared to the others, for example the design: letting the composer/orchestrator/arranger see the staves across nearly the entire screen is something I took for granted. It makes composing less about the tool and more about the ideas. Also, the scroll bar. Some notation editors don't have them, Sonar does and it is often the fastest way to get 100 measures forward or back. Both of these features really help those who work with a lot of instruments or write pieces longer than 2-3 minutes.
post edited by jsg - 2015/06/25 16:03:37
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mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/06/24 23:30:16
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I always enjoy your posts Jerry. You have a way of getting to the heart of a matter.
I think technology allows us to acquire a sense that we can do more than our talents would otherwise allow.
Today anyone can cobble together a bunch of sounds and call it an accomplishment. An achievement unattainable before the age of electronics. When I consider what can already be done, will we eventually feature fill the human element out of it all. I want a talent button right next to the make a hit for me button.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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