The lack of a decent staff view is just another example of dumbing down music. I defy anyone to create harmonies and discordance by "reading the piano roll view" with regards to time spent using traditional notation. Cakewalk has stated that musicians and composers are not a large part of their customer base. Clearly the construction kits and loops based users are in the majority and if that says anything - it points to EDM et al users. I'd like to see a print out of piano roll view handed to a film scoring orchestra to play.

It seems to me Cakewalk is happy to contribute to the dumbing down process for the sake of profit. Personally I think they should be expanding the horizons of modern composition instead of providing sequencer software alternatives that belong to principally historical Roland drum machines and Akai samplers (substitute your own hardware brands, models and devices) from the previous century.

An alternative is to make the staff view functions and libraries open source and in no time at all there would be a plethora of viable solutions.

Not that I want to start a definition war but those who argue it is a DAW and not a notation program, I would ask you to consider that Digital Audio Workstation contains no mention of midi nor does Sonar have an audio editor like Sound Forge. The inclusive definition is “Digital”, which is a reference to binary code and thus it is perfectly acceptable to include a digital notation view.

An alternative is the rumoured contemplation of Sony Creative Software to include a full DAW in Vegas Pro video. They already have the expertise and could provide a real threat to Sonar.

Don't ask me Mike.
 
I have never used a staff view for creating complex harmonies and don't intend to start now!

I don't use the staff view either, but that doesn't discount the folks that want it improved.
It would be a great idea if (a) Cake revamped the staff view to meet user needs or (b) 3rd party staff progs could integrate into Sonar - much like Sound Forge can be your audio editor inside Sonar.
 
That said, I don't assume or expect Sonar to be my nexus for everything audio.
Though I use a lot of core Sonar stuff, I frequently use non-Cake synths and 3rd party plugs.
Not a dis on Cake, I just find other options outside of Sonar (and there are many) fit better at what I'm going for.
 

Anderton

vmw
Cakewalk has stated that musicians and composers are not a large part of their customer base.

Well mudgel, sorry to  burst your bubble but it's absolutely true that very few musicians use SONAR. The latest survey shows that the majority of Cakewalk users are astronauts, teddy bear repair technicians, whaling ship captains, IMAX screen cleaners, pet food testers, and undergarment designers. However, I'd sure like to know how vmw managed to get his hands on this highly confidential information...i can only assume he works in marketing at Cakewalk. 
 

Awesome!!! That's funny stuff right there. Made me laugh out loud.
 
Rocky

Anderton

vmw
Cakewalk has stated that musicians and composers are not a large part of their customer base.

Well mudgel, sorry to  burst your bubble but it's absolutely true that very few musicians use SONAR. The latest survey shows that the majority of Cakewalk users are astronauts, teddy bear repair technicians, whaling ship captains, IMAX screen cleaners, pet food testers, and undergarment designers. However, I'd sure like to know how vmw managed to get his hands on this highly confidential information...i can only assume he works in marketing at Cakewalk. 
 

haha!!!!   yuk yuk!   ;>)
 
 

Can't mark your post as Helpful Amp, as Susan has beaten me to it.

Wait a second... vmw is mudgel?? This thread has lost me more than it already did now...

mettelus
Wait a second... vmw is mudgel?? This thread has lost me more than it already did now...

No I'm not.

mudgel

mettelus
Wait a second... vmw is mudgel?? This thread has lost me more than it already did now...

No I'm not.

Are you sure ?
 
The clues are all there - (vmw)
 
Mike = (m)
V = (v)
Wombat (avatar) = (w)   just shuffle them around a bit
 
lol
 

I should stay out of the forums when tired! I saw the quote and seemed like a reply to it. Whew, all better now (good for a couple minutes anyway).

Anderton
It was bad enough when someone stated Cakewalk would never fix staff view (there have been several fixes), it was not on their to-do list (obviously it was), 

 
When you misunderstand something you sure run with it.  Since you keep saying this I must correct you.  
 
1) When I said Cakewalk would never fix staff view I meant make creating a useable, musically correct tool.  IMO bug fixes should be a given and in no way are included in what I mean by "fixing staff view".  Staff view needs a major overhaul.   Many users agree with this view.  This misunderstanding could have been avoided by a better explanation from me.
 
2) You have written many posts arguing that it is not financially feasible for Cakewalk to make a major investment in notation since so few users need it.  So you actually agree with me that it is at least unlikely that Cakewalk will ever make a major investment in staff view, which is what I and many others are talking about.  Now no one, not even Cakewalk, knows what the future will bring.  I don't actually know for an absolute certainty that the sun will rise tomorrow.  I do know, however, that the sun has risen every day since I can remember and therefore I feel pretty confident with the statement "the sun will rise tomorrow".  Since I have been using Cakewalk products longer than you and have been dealing with this notaiton issue for many years, I feel pretty confident in saying that a major overhaul of the the staff view will never happen.   The irony is that you have been, somewhat, arguing the same point.
 

Anderton
Studio One Pro 3 would integrate notation (it doesn't). 

 
3)  You are mixing you tenses here.  Saying it would and it doesn't doesn't imply it won't ... but it does integrate...
 
From the Presonus web site:
"Studio One integrates with PreSonus Notion™ notation software, too."
On that note, PreSonus Notion 5 notation software has always had the ability to integrate with Studio One via ReWire to add additional instruments and scoring capabilities, but you can now also import Notion stems with instrument names, mix, and tempo info preserved."
 
A presonus rep has told me that they will integrating Notion with Studio One more and more.
 
 

vintagevibe
When you misunderstand something you sure run with it.  Since you keep saying this I must correct you.

 
Then I must remind you of what you said that led me to the conclusions I drew. You seem to have forgotten a lot of it.
 

1) When I said Cakewalk would never fix staff view I meant make creating a useable, musically correct tool.  IMO bug fixes should be a given and in no way are included in what I mean by "fixing staff view".  Staff view needs a major overhaul.   Many users agree with this view.  This misunderstanding could have been avoided by a better explanation from me.

 
First of all, that's not all you said. You also said bug fixes would never happen; that staff view is never on meeting agendas; that Cakewalk sees education as a small niche market; and more, which I will remind you of in this post. You were quite specific about several elements beyond whatever your vague definition is of "a useable, musically correct tool" might be.
 
Second, I can’t reply based on what you meant to say, I'm not a full-time psychic and can only reply based on what you said. All that notwithstanding, you had several opportunities to engage in a dialog with my responses and provide a better explanation of what you meant. You didn’t, so I continued to take your statements at face value.
 
You said “Staff View is dead.  No matter what Cakewalk says publicly it will never be addressed.  People need [to] realize that.”
 
Yet there have been several fixes in the past few releases, with more to come. So much for “will never be addressed.”
 
As to Studio One’s integration, it was at the time of your posts “integrated” through ReWire yet you were referring to integration in the future. Because SOP already “integrates” ReWire based on your definition of integration, SONAR does too. Having two separate programs talk to each other is not an integral whole. If you consider Studio One Pro to “integrated” notation because it can ReWire Notion, then you need to be honest and say that SONAR can do the same thing.
 
Yes, with Notion 5 you can now import Notion stems into SOP. But if Notion can export SMFs (I think it can, yes?), SONAR can import them which, while not as elegant, attains similar functionality. In either case that is still hardly an integrated whole.
 
And you’ve said things that are just plain wrong to which I didn’t bother responding, like with respect to other companies doing notation when you said “especially since all the other major players came to the opposite conclusion.” Not Ableton Live, Reason, or FL Studio -- all of which sell a lot more copies than Studio One Pro as well as several other DAWs.
 
Or when you proposed your theory as to why Cakewalk had not done fixes previously: “Actually I suspect it may be because the kicked they ball down the road for so many years that they are afraid to touch the code now.  I have to fault Cakewalk for that decision if true.” Well that’s obviously not true, because they’re touching the code in order to do fixes. 
 
I’m not the only one to see how you present speculation as facts. As Mudget said, “Using misinformation doesn't bolster your arguments at all. It just shows that you'll say what you want to strengthen your point of view whether it's accurate or not.”
 
You didn't seize that opportunity to clarify potential misunderstandings. You just doubled down on what you had already said.
 
A Cakewalk representative said “We frequently (annuallyish) investigate Staff View improvements, or even an overhaul. It's not ‘dead’ nor ‘abandoned.’ It has just been ‘deferred’ due to other priorities that impact a larger group of customers. Don't lose hope. We understand there is room for improvement and intend to tackle it eventually. Our new release model will allow us to budget time and resources more easily, so it's more realistic now than it has been in years. Thanks for being patient.”
 
To which you replied: “No one knows the future but when I hear the exact same thing over and over it is reasonable to expect the exact same result.” That is a misrepresentation as well, because referencing a new release model and budgeting process that had not existed in the past was NOT saying the same thing. Time has proven that this new model has indeed resulted in improvements in staff view. Again, you were wrong.
 
You said “(Cakewalk) have concluded that that market doesn't need notation which is why they not only won’t enhance notation but will not even fix the bugs.”
 
Wrong again. They are fixing bugs. You said they would not. You are wrong, and that's a very plain-spoken statement that has nothing to do with what you say you meant about referring solely to a more wide-ranging makeover.
 
You said “But, of course, to Cakewalk [education] s just a small niche market.” That is also wrong. One of the main reasons Cakewalk signed a distribution deal with Hal Leonard (which Roland discouraged but Gibson encouraged) was to get more penetration into the education market. I am currently in discussion with a school system overseas that wants to use SONAR as its “default” DAW for classes. Just because Cakewalk has not had a big role in education in the past, it does not logically follow that the company sees it as a "small niche market." It is a market Cakewalk is pursuing, and will continue to do so. This is perhaps why we are discussing my writing a Teacher's Guide. Again, you are wrong, and have stated something inaccurate as fact.
 
You said “I don’t think they are being dishonest but that no matter what is said in public when they have design meetings it will never get on the agenda.”
 
Wrong again, and that also is separate from what you claim you meant to say. I said in response “That is a fabrication. I have attended design meetings, and staff view has not only gotten on the agenda but been discussed. Bill's response [in this thread] is almost identical to what he said at a previous meeting.”
 
To which you replied and for the first time, corrected your statement…unfortunately, with more B.S.
 
“You are right.  Allow me to correct: No matter what they say in public or how much some may want to do it, it will never get done.  My prediction.”
 
Yet here they are, fixing staff view. You can say they’re not fixing it fast enough for your tastes, or that you really really meant something else, but fixing staff view was on the agenda, the code is being touched, and it is being fixed. There’s yet another fix in the upcoming release for June. If they keep up this pace, Staff View will continue to improve.
 

2) You have written many posts arguing that it is not financially feasible for Cakewalk to make a major investment in notation since so few users need it.  So you actually agree with me that it is at least unlikely that Cakewalk will ever make a major investment in staff view, which is what I and many others are talking about.  Now no one, not even Cakewalk, knows what the future will bring.  I don't actually know for an absolute certainty that the sun will rise tomorrow.  I do know, however, that the sun has risen every day since I can remember and therefore I feel pretty confident with the statement "the sun will rise tomorrow".  Since I have been using Cakewalk products longer than you and have been dealing with this notaiton issue for many years, I feel pretty confident in saying that a major overhaul of the the staff view will never happen.   The irony is that you have been, somewhat, arguing the same point.

 
Notwithstanding that your comments touched on a much broader range of topics than a major overhaul, and were actually quite specific and proven wrong, I'm the kind of person who is willing to revise my thoughts in light of new data and changing conditions. Given the success of the membership program, the number of new users picking up Artist, and the outreach to the education market, it's becoming more likely, not less. I'm open-minded enough to realize that you cannot always predict the future based on the past, and when new data arrives, I re-evaluate the conclusions drawn from previous data.
 
What I don't understand is why someone who claims to have switched from SONAR to Cubase comes in here to present misinformation, based on speculation but presented as certainty. Given that you've been wrong about so much, some of which is delineated in this post, I'm sorry but it is I who must correct you. 
 
You say: "The irony is that you have been, somewhat, arguing the same point."
 
The irony is that the greater SONAR's success, the more likely there will be a Staff View overhaul because then the user base will represent an increasing number of people, therefore, there will be more people who want a staff view overhaul. So coming here and spreading provably wrong misinformation about Cakewalk's priorities, and responsiveness to user input regarding staff view by saying there would never be fixes which has been proven wrong, seems intended to drive people away from SONAR. So the real irony of the situation is you are helping to prevent what you claim you want to see happen.
 
So I have to correct you because I am one of those people who would like to see improvements in Staff View. Comments from a pro like Jerry, who recognizes SONAR's flaws but also see its advantages, represent a balanced viewpoint that doesn't insult the reader's intelligence by telling them what to think. He gives them accurate data, and identifies opinions as such, so people can make up their own minds.
 
How hard is it to ask "Have Cakewalk's priorities regarding the education market changed since its acquisition?" or "Can we at least expect bug fixes if no major overhaul is forthcoming?" compared to making misleading statement regarding matters about which you know nothing?
 
This thread should be locked anyway, given that there have been - and will continue to be - new notation fixes. The title is no longer current.

Sounds good to me!

I think this thread should be locked.
Not because I don't want discussion on Notaion in Sonar but because the likelihood of a new member being able to extract relevant information from this thread is highly unlikely nor is anyone who contributed likely to be able to add anything of more benefit.

There is a far more reasonable discussion started here.
http://forum.cakewalk.com...s-Thread-m3246511.aspx

Anderton

vintagevibe
When you misunderstand something you sure run with it.  Since you keep saying this I must correct you.

 
Then I must remind you of what you said that led me to the conclusions I drew. You seem to have forgotten a lot of it.
 

1) When I said Cakewalk would never fix staff view I meant make creating a useable, musically correct tool.  IMO bug fixes should be a given and in no way are included in what I mean by "fixing staff view".  Staff view needs a major overhaul.   Many users agree with this view.  This misunderstanding could have been avoided by a better explanation from me.

 
First of all, that's not all you said. You also said bug fixes would never happen; that staff view is never on meeting agendas; that Cakewalk sees education as a small niche market; and more, which I will remind you of in this post. You were quite specific about several elements beyond whatever your vague definition is of "a useable, musically correct tool" might be.
 
Second, I can’t reply based on what you meant to say, I'm not a full-time psychic and can only reply based on what you said. All that notwithstanding, you had several opportunities to engage in a dialog with my responses and provide a better explanation of what you meant. You didn’t, so I continued to take your statements at face value.
 
You said “Staff View is dead.  No matter what Cakewalk says publicly it will never be addressed.  People need [to] realize that.”
 
Yet there have been several fixes in the past few releases, with more to come. So much for “will never be addressed.”
 
As to Studio One’s integration, it was at the time of your posts “integrated” through ReWire yet you were referring to integration in the future. Because SOP already “integrates” ReWire based on your definition of integration, SONAR does too. Having two separate programs talk to each other is not an integral whole. If you consider Studio One Pro to “integrated” notation because it can ReWire Notion, then you need to be honest and say that SONAR can do the same thing.
 
Yes, with Notion 5 you can now import Notion stems into SOP. But if Notion can export SMFs (I think it can, yes?), SONAR can import them which, while not as elegant, attains similar functionality. In either case that is still hardly an integrated whole.
 
And you’ve said things that are just plain wrong to which I didn’t bother responding, like with respect to other companies doing notation when you said “especially since all the other major players came to the opposite conclusion.” Not Ableton Live, Reason, or FL Studio -- all of which sell a lot more copies than Studio One Pro as well as several other DAWs.
 
Or when you proposed your theory as to why Cakewalk had not done fixes previously: “Actually I suspect it may be because the kicked they ball down the road for so many years that they are afraid to touch the code now.  I have to fault Cakewalk for that decision if true.” Well that’s obviously not true, because they’re touching the code in order to do fixes. 
 
I’m not the only one to see how you present speculation as facts. As Mudget said, “Using misinformation doesn't bolster your arguments at all. It just shows that you'll say what you want to strengthen your point of view whether it's accurate or not.”
 
You didn't seize that opportunity to clarify potential misunderstandings. You just doubled down on what you had already said.
 
A Cakewalk representative said “We frequently (annuallyish) investigate Staff View improvements, or even an overhaul. It's not ‘dead’ nor ‘abandoned.’ It has just been ‘deferred’ due to other priorities that impact a larger group of customers. Don't lose hope. We understand there is room for improvement and intend to tackle it eventually. Our new release model will allow us to budget time and resources more easily, so it's more realistic now than it has been in years. Thanks for being patient.”
 
To which you replied: “No one knows the future but when I hear the exact same thing over and over it is reasonable to expect the exact same result.” That is a misrepresentation as well, because referencing a new release model and budgeting process that had not existed in the past was NOT saying the same thing. Time has proven that this new model has indeed resulted in improvements in staff view. Again, you were wrong.
 
You said “(Cakewalk) have concluded that that market doesn't need notation which is why they not only won’t enhance notation but will not even fix the bugs.”
 
Wrong again. They are fixing bugs. You said they would not. You are wrong, and that's a very plain-spoken statement that has nothing to do with what you say you meant about referring solely to a more wide-ranging makeover.
 
You said “But, of course, to Cakewalk [education] s just a small niche market.” That is also wrong. One of the main reasons Cakewalk signed a distribution deal with Hal Leonard (which Roland discouraged but Gibson encouraged) was to get more penetration into the education market. I am currently in discussion with a school system overseas that wants to use SONAR as its “default” DAW for classes. Just because Cakewalk has not had a big role in education in the past, it does not logically follow that the company sees it as a "small niche market." It is a market Cakewalk is pursuing, and will continue to do so. This is perhaps why we are discussing my writing a Teacher's Guide. Again, you are wrong, and have stated something inaccurate as fact.
 
You said “I don’t think they are being dishonest but that no matter what is said in public when they have design meetings it will never get on the agenda.”
 
Wrong again, and that also is separate from what you claim you meant to say. I said in response “That is a fabrication. I have attended design meetings, and staff view has not only gotten on the agenda but been discussed. Bill's response [in this thread] is almost identical to what he said at a previous meeting.”
 
To which you replied and for the first time, corrected your statement…unfortunately, with more B.S.
 
“You are right.  Allow me to correct: No matter what they say in public or how much some may want to do it, it will never get done.  My prediction.”
 
Yet here they are, fixing staff view. You can say they’re not fixing it fast enough for your tastes, or that you really really meant something else, but fixing staff view was on the agenda, the code is being touched, and it is being fixed. There’s yet another fix in the upcoming release for June. If they keep up this pace, Staff View will continue to improve.
 

2) You have written many posts arguing that it is not financially feasible for Cakewalk to make a major investment in notation since so few users need it.  So you actually agree with me that it is at least unlikely that Cakewalk will ever make a major investment in staff view, which is what I and many others are talking about.  Now no one, not even Cakewalk, knows what the future will bring.  I don't actually know for an absolute certainty that the sun will rise tomorrow.  I do know, however, that the sun has risen every day since I can remember and therefore I feel pretty confident with the statement "the sun will rise tomorrow".  Since I have been using Cakewalk products longer than you and have been dealing with this notaiton issue for many years, I feel pretty confident in saying that a major overhaul of the the staff view will never happen.   The irony is that you have been, somewhat, arguing the same point.

 
Notwithstanding that your comments touched on a much broader range of topics than a major overhaul, and were actually quite specific and proven wrong, I'm the kind of person who is willing to revise my thoughts in light of new data and changing conditions. Given the success of the membership program, the number of new users picking up Artist, and the outreach to the education market, it's becoming more likely, not less. I'm open-minded enough to realize that you cannot always predict the future based on the past, and when new data arrives, I re-evaluate the conclusions drawn from previous data.
 
What I don't understand is why someone who claims to have switched from SONAR to Cubase comes in here to present misinformation, based on speculation but presented as certainty. Given that you've been wrong about so much, some of which is delineated in this post, I'm sorry but it is I who must correct you. 
 
You say: "The irony is that you have been, somewhat, arguing the same point."
 
The irony is that the greater SONAR's success, the more likely there will be a Staff View overhaul because then the user base will represent an increasing number of people, therefore, there will be more people who want a staff view overhaul. So coming here and spreading provably wrong misinformation about Cakewalk's priorities, and responsiveness to user input regarding staff view by saying there would never be fixes which has been proven wrong, seems intended to drive people away from SONAR. So the real irony of the situation is you are helping to prevent what you claim you want to see happen.
 
So I have to correct you because I am one of those people who would like to see improvements in Staff View. Comments from a pro like Jerry, who recognizes SONAR's flaws but also see its advantages, represent a balanced viewpoint that doesn't insult the reader's intelligence by telling them what to think. He gives them accurate data, and identifies opinions as such, so people can make up their own minds.
 
How hard is it to ask "Have Cakewalk's priorities regarding the education market changed since its acquisition?" or "Can we at least expect bug fixes if no major overhaul is forthcoming?" compared to making misleading statement regarding matters about which you know nothing?
 
This thread should be locked anyway, given that there have been - and will continue to be - new notation fixes. The title is no longer current.

Wow!  You've misrepresented or misunderstood so much that it's just tiring.  You'll argue forever and life is too short.   Rather than try, yet again, to correct you I'll start over.   Here are my predictions with great certainty:
 
1) The sun will rise tomorrow.  
2) Cakewalk will never invest significant resources to overhaul the staff view and make it on par with (or even close to) Cubase, Protools or DP.  It will always be substandard.  People who are waiting for this will be disappointed.
 
All things are possible and anyone can be wrong.  I do, however, expect the sun to rise tomorrow.  Let me know if I'm wrong.