Back to normal programming...
 

vintagevibe
 
Wow!  You've misrepresented or misunderstood so much that it's just tiring.

 
How is it possible to misinterpret:
 
"(Cakewalk) have concluded that that market doesn't need notation which is why they not only won’t enhance notation but will not even fix the bugs.” I guess you meant to say "Cakewalk will likely start to fix staff view bugs."
 
Or "But, of course, to Cakewalk [education] is just a small niche market.” I guess you meant to say "Cakewalk is actively pursuing the education market, because they see its potential."
 
Or "“Staff View is dead.  No matter what Cakewalk says publicly it will never be addressed." I guess you meant to say "Staff view isn't dead - I predict Cakewalk will start addressing it now that they have this new release schedule."
 
So, my bad!!! Everything you meant to say turned out to be true. I have absolutely no idea why I instead keyed in on what you actually said.
 
 

vintagevibeYou'll argue forever and life is too short.

 
I didn't argue. An argument is an exchange of diverging or opposite views. There were no opposite views. I simply presented quotes of things you stated as fact, and showed they weren't factual.
 

Rather than try, yet again, to correct you I'll start over.

 
You have yet to "correct" anything. You have not cited any factual errors in anything I've said. What you call a "correction" is to say you meant something other than what your words said. That's not correcting me, that's clarifying your comments, and even then, only a portion of them. You still have failed to address quotes like the ones above, which I think are quite clear.
 
 

vintagevibeHere are my predictions with great certainty:
 
1) The sun will rise tomorrow.

 
That topic was never under discussion. Perhaps you consider your statement some kind of riposte.
 

vintagevibe2) Cakewalk will never invest significant resources to overhaul the staff view and make it on par with (or even close to) Cubase, Protools or DP.  It will always be substandard.  People who are waiting for this will be disappointed.

 
Given your track record for predictions, you've now given me hope that Cakewalk will invest significant resources to overhaul the staff view. 
 
You dissed Cakewalk and the credibility of its current staff; dismissed what the new project manager said (who kept his word); and made claims which you stated as fact yet have turned out to be fiction. Instead of being happy that Cakewalk is paying attention to users and fixing bugs (which you stated they would not do), you are so invested in maintaining your negative position that you have doubled down and said your fallacious predictions were simply "misrepresented." Yet your own words undermine that contention.
 
Go have fun with Cubase, it's a fine program and if SONAR didn't exist, I'd probably be using that or Studio One. Meanwhile, SONAR users can enjoy the fact that Cakewalk is listening to what they want, and acting on it. That is a step in the right direction, to say the least.

To THE CRAIG::
 
Stop contributing to this thread. You could have finished at least one new song for all the effort you have put into arguing with a guy who has stubborn on his side.
 
I implore you to only post when you are NOT responding to dumb. Let the rest of us whop these guys our big sticks.
 
As the Python said, "He's got to be king cuz he doesn't have stuff all over him."
 
Please stay out of the stuff.

Well said Susan.

YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
Susan is THE MAN.
 
"She, Who Must Be Obeyed!"

Please, no. I'm not even sure how you meant or how to take that, but I don't much like it!
 
Thanks-
 
-Susan

YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson
Ahh, to be young again.
 
A reference to "Rumpole of the Baily."
 
A compliment. For SHE was clearly the reason Rumpole was a better man
 
All because of Hilda, the beneficent.
 
 
 

Ah, okay.
 
Thanks-
 
-Susan

I remember in my early days here saying something incorrect because of lack of knowledge and being jumped on by all sorts of "professional" so I'm not sure it's changed in that way.

But I don't think this post has anything to do with opposing opinions. More a dogged determination to derail the notation discussion by someone who by their own words isn't even a Sonar user any longer.
Like I said before I think it's time this thread was locked and dumped I the bin of history.

Susan G
I may be romanticizing the way things were here years ago, but it seems to me folks used to be able to voice their opinions on these forums without feeling like they had to be on one or the other side of a lengthy debate where one team always had to "win." It wasn't quite so adversarial.

Expressing opinions is great. My opinion is that stating multiple negative and untrue speculations as facts is not great.
 
I don't have to "win" anything. Maybe it's my editorial/fact-checking background but I do feel compelled to correct misinformation and if someone persists in disseminating misinformation, I feel compelled to reply because silence is perceived as assent. As to Vintage Vibe specifically, I have a problem with someone who says he switched from SONAR to Cubase, yet still comes in here periodically to complain about the program. IIRC this is the same person who was experiencing a problem with his system, and refused to even try advice the community gave him about possible problems to check because he was so sure that it had to be SONAR. Eventually the community just gave up trying to help, but not until after making a considerable effort.
 
Regarding notation, he has contributed a plethora of negative posts in a thread about a program he claims to have switched from using "except to open legacy projects." So what is his motivation for coming in and complaining about SONAR? I don't get it.
 
Compare that with JSG. He was of the opinion that MOTU DP was better than SONAR so he switched. No one got on his case because that was his opinion, he is credible, and frankly, many if not all users of staff view believe it could be improved so they agreed with that opinion. I have been an advocate of improving it, but it's people like JSG posting solutions that makes things happen - not a Cubase user dismissing a transparent and forthright statement from SONAR's project manager about Cakewalk's position vis a vis notation. If Vintage Vibe had simply said "Well I'm glad to hear it's not dead and is something you're reviewing" instead of doubling down and saying that he was certain nothing would ever happen, I feel that would have contributed a lot more to the thread, and encouraged people to present solutions that would help expedite the process of improving staff view.
 
You can see thread after thread in these forums that go along in a positive and useful direction until one person with an agenda comes in and does the equivalent of barfing on the rug at a party. Look what happened to the thread I started commending the community for contributing useful techniques and being more precise and specific in their bug reports.
 
There are plenty of people who have negative opinions of SONAR, and that's to be expected. Some people think it caters too much to EDM. Some people think it doesn't cater enough. Obviously both of them can't be "right," but they have opinions and that's the way they see the program. I would hope no one would say "No, you don't see the program that way." That would be absurd; we're talking about someone's opinion.
 
So yes, opinions are great. Misrepresenting facts is not, and I believe people should be held accountable for what they say on forums, just as I expect to be held accountable for what I say. I stand behind what I say, I research as much as possible to verify the accuracy of what I say, and if I'm aware that I've said something incorrect, I always say that I stand corrected. If you think I'm a jerk, that's fine. But you can rest assured that I say what I believe, and I have made a considerable effort to make sure what I believe is true.
 
I believe the comments Vintage Vibe made were unwarranted, misleading, and possibly mean-spirited. I'm sorry that upsets me, but it does - and all the more so because I remember posts he did years ago that were anything but that.
 
I have to be honest and say there were two people who've come to this forum that I felt were toxic to the forum and disrespectful to the community and yes, I hoped that I could make them feel unwelcome enough to leave. And they did. But Vintage Vibe is not one of those. I simply do not want to let stand misleading statements from a Cubase user lest someone come in here, read what he says, and think "Wow, what a crappy company. This guy says right here they don't care about the education market, they'll never fix staff view bugs, staff view is dead, and they're never going to address issues with notation. Well, no one said he was wrong, so it must be true."
 
That's the way the internet works. Then misinformation gets picked up other places. Anyone visit Gearslutz last January and saw that if you don't subscribe to Cakewalk's subscription program, your software doesn't work until you pay more money? And that updates are $500 a year?
 
And just to be clear, I don't have to "win" anything by saying this. I am telling you exactly why I am so upset. If your opinion is that I'm being as ass, that's fine. If your opinion is I'm standing up for the truth, that's fine. But I am who I am. I contribute a lot to this forum, to Cakewalk, and to this industry. The same personality trait of intensity that makes me care enough about users to spend hours helping them when I could be doing a zillion other things is the same trait that makes me impatient with people who are rude to Cakewalk - the people who make this forum possible and graciously provide access - and the community, who by and large are helpful and honest.
 
I do not like the way the world is going. Propellerheads shut down their forum because they didn't want to have to deal with this kind of crap. I can't blame them. I realize I may be contributing to the world's negativity by not having patience for people whose primary contribution to forums is negativity (which to be clear, is not the same as negative opinions). However, I also believe not standing up to it simply encourages more negativity by allowing it to take root. Unfortunately, that has been my experience on internet forums for the past 20 years, and I've seen no evidence that situation has changed. 

Anderton

vintagevibe
Please read this thread.  I am a Sonar user and probably have been far longer than you.  But of course I shouldn't have voice if you disagree with it.  

The only reason I said you use Cubase is because you said you switched from SONAR to Cubase and that you used SONAR only to "open legacy projects." I don't make things up and say they're facts, I got that information from your responses to posts. If that information is indeed no longer accurate, then I stand corrected.

Nothing has changed.  I have hundreds of legacy files.  You heard what you wanted to hear.

 
(Actually, I take that back. I'm not sure if I stand corrected or not. It all depends on whether Vintage Vibe was telling the truth today, or whether he was telling the truth a week ago.) 
 

vintagevibe

mudgel
But I don't think this post has anything to do with opposing opinions. More a dogged determination to derail the notation discussion by someone who by their own words isn't even a Sonar user any longer.

Please read this thread. I am a Sonar user and have been since the mid 90's...but of course I shouldn't have voice if you disagree with my opinions. I've also been on this forum since before it was a forum and was a news group. I can tell you that it definitely was not like this before. Opposing opinions used to be welcome.
 

Vintage Vibe, your saying "I made the switch to Cubase" is NOT an opinion, it's a statement of fact. Opposing opinions remain welcome. Blatant disingenuousness does not - and unfortunately for you, we HAVE read this thread. 
 
Which is the truth - what you claim above, or what you said in this very thread one week ago: 
 
 
"After many years of Cakewalk sending out notation surveys and never improving it, along with stability issues,  I made the switch to Cubase.  Cubase notation is by far the most advanced in any DAW.  It does some pretty cool things that even Sibelius can't do.  I don't like the dongle either but it's a small price to pay for the notation and MIDI power I have now.  I don't need to use keyswitches any more, I can just pull articulations from a menu and put them in the score.  Very cool stuff.  Another thing is that Steinberg is working on a dongle-less solution but no one knows when it will be implemented.  I avoided switching from Cakewalk/Sonar for years hoping for usable notation and the switch took some effort but was the only solution for notation and turned out to be well worth it."
 
 
Of course, I could just be misunderstanding you, after all, "I made the switch to Cubase" in no way implies that you made the switch to Cubase - it could be your opinion that you switched to Cubase, not something that actually happened. Or maybe you meant to say "I made the switch to SONAR." Or maybe you switched to Cubase so recently you're confused as to what you're using.
 
Then again, there's this post from two years ago - July 1, 2013:  "I'm doing all my creative projects in C7 now.  After spending some time setting up templates, when I import the MIDI and audio i'm ready to go.  I've got all my main FX and routings already set up.  I also learned and created my main key bindings so it really has been surprisingly easy.  Also the C7 manual may be the best in the industry IMO."
 
Lest anyone think I'm being mean, I'm not the one who switched my stories within a one-week period. I just called you on it. If you had been honest, I wouldn't have needed to say anything.

"I shot an arrow into the air. It came to earth, I know not where?"
 
Yes, it does relate.....

Read this veeerrrrry slowly.  I switched to Cubase and do all of my creative work and new files in it.  I have hundreds of Sonar files that I still use.  I have said both of these things on many occasions.  Now you are calling me liar.  It just gets worse and worse.  Now I suspect you will go through every word I've ever written to try and find gotchas.   I always assume that when I'm arguing a point with someone and all they do is correct my spelling that I've won the argument.  Of course now you'll explain why this isn't an argument...
 
p.s. this forum really needs a face palm

No one's asking for stacks of features Wicked, just fixes and some tweaks. We've seen some fixes, but I think expecting all bugs to be address no matter what area of the program is a reasonable expectation as a customer.
 
Regards Sibelious, I see the point if you are full on scoring or something, but if you want your workflow in Sonar because you write with a mix of acoustic and software instruments and then mix while you work, why would you jump out to another program.
 
I have acoustic instrutuments in C, Bb and G (yep that's an odd one). Say I create a loop, with beats and chords. Melodyne allows me to play something on the flute over it, chuck it back into Sonar edit and see it as score, assign to a synth, transpose it a create a harmony line to the originbal Flute line, transpose it to the correct key for me to read withr either my soprano (Bb) or my Alto (G), if I still had my Baritone (Eb), or maybe for a key for another musician to play instead. And record over the same beat and chords. Use the pro channel tools to make it sit sweet. Why would I want to go outside of sonar to deal with  some scoring when everything else is in Sonar.
 
Creating harmonies is more intuitive for many in Staff View than PRV for many. We've seen developments to the latter but nothing (developments that is not fixes) to staff view, and for many removing the note lengths icon from staff view is a step back not forward and easily fixed (as duckbar prooves). 
 
Sonar braggs about Staff View in their advertising. But even if they didn't I think they have a responsibility to their customers to address bugs with in the program.