I think Sonar will be overlooked for the educational system because of staff view..., Ive worked in education for 18yrs and even judged composition competitions on a national level.

On music courses and individual sessions with teachers I have run over the years they have really impressed with Sonar and its abilities until they get to SV view.. I love Sonar but when I show the SV view I get that sad feeling of having to admit to them its limitations.. or I lose credibility..

With the arrival on X1 I couldnt recommend it further tbh.. because kids need to see the note icons. - because they have different names in different languages. and the icons are universal.......

here's a chat I had with a teacher (who recently became the local university music teacher training officer) who will over the next twenty years have a massive influence on how and what is taught.

"how do you select note values - semiquavers". "oh thats easy" I say "just right click here and select Sixteenth". they reply "sixteenth?, shouldnt it be called Semiquaver??" "is there an easy way to select it?". "Where are the symbols/icons?"

"Ok... the keyboard shortcut are handy too". I say. " press shift alt 6" (or whatever it is). (She goes on them to note most pupils want place music in straight away rather learning even more keyboard shortcuts and refers to special needs)

I then state you can change the keybind to something memorable but by then she lost interest and even start saying refering to Logic on pc (yeah some still refer to it). that that was easier to use!!

in a recent conversation I had with her she purchasef Cubase... stating that Sonar was easier but Sv was a dealbreaker..

frustrating isnt a word that truly describes my feelings about this!!

Elffin . . . that's nice to hear from the point of view of an educator, we so often think this software is just for bedroom producers, professional music producers, audio engineers, songwriter / composers . . . but I guess there's a lot of music educators that rely on staff view to teach music. Back in the day, I can't imagine when I learned about music and music theory that I could ever have made sense of it from a Piano Roll View type system, and the staff notation was central to being able to play with other accomplished musicians. There's a whole generation (or two) of rock and rollers that learned to play by ear, in order to play in bands etc . . . but from a modern composer's point of view: staff notation still seems the most efficient way to play music with larger groups of musicians.
 
Things are changing in the world, especially with technology, moving ahead quickly, so I wonder if staff notation will disappear and not be needed in pop music, though it's a long way from disappearing in classical music circles, and hopefully also from music education circles.

Anderton
Cakewalk does the math: (($100 x 10,000) - $50,000 for duplication, packaging, and shipping) = $950,000. Now, THAT meets the three requirements:
 
1. Enough people want it.
2. It will bring in significant revenue.
3. The significant revenue can pay for the resources needed to implement the changes.
 
It's just that simple. That's how the real world works...and don't think Cakewalk isn't looking for these kinds of opportunities.

OK Craig.
What you are saying is that there is not enough profit in fixing SV. Cake looks at how many new users it would bring vs. cost to implement. Cake has done the math and it is not do-able. Fine. Just admit it already so people that need SV can look elsewhere.
Other DAWs in the same price range seem to do it.  Yes, Cake is small , economy of scale etc. 
We as consumers perform a similar cost vs. benefit analysis when paying for a service or product. I do not really care about what a company's problems are and this is what management is supposedly for. I care about the value of the product I am paying for. I try to get the best value for my hard earned money.
I am very disappointed so far this year in Cakewalk. The new (not a subscription) model has panned out just as I expected. Unless something really, really, wonderful and amazing happens before Jan, I will not be renewing for 2016. 
I have recently been looking at other DAWs and have found that one in particular meets my needs much more closely than Sonar and costs about $50 more retail. Their SV blows me away as does the overall professional look and feel of the software. Even if they did nothing to their DAW in the next 10 years, I do not see Sonar approaching their level in that time frame given Cake's recent performance.
Let's mention the 500 lb gorilla in the room.
Face it, Sonar needs a major rewrite. Yes, Cake stuck a new GUI on top of an aging codebase and called it X-series/Platinum.
Even simple features seem to be getting harder to implement. MIDI needs major work. The audio interface is finicky. Latency is not that great. Anyone with serious programming experience can see that it is time for a careful look at revising the model and a ground up rewrite.
If Cake wants to play in the big leagues, a significant investment is required that may not see a return for a long time. I had hoped that the Gibson aquisition would provide this opportunity but it does not look promising.
I am sorry that other DAWs have 10 times the people Cake has working on staff view or any other area for that matter. That is not my problem. That is Cake management's problem.
 
There is another way to look at your Chinese educator example. Instead of focusing on the absolute bottom line, focus on the fact that this deal could provide full or partial funding to make your product better, more competitive and more desirable to a wider market... even though you may not recoup every last cent or make a profit on this particular deal.
 
So paraphrasing your statement...
It's just that simple. That's how the real world works...and don't think I am not  looking for other kinds of opportunities.

I would also like to say that I don't think that anyone has contributed as much time and effort on our behalves to get Sonar where it needs to be than Craig Anderton! At the end of the day, Cakewalk will do what it needs to in order to stay in business.
I applaud the effort that Craig puts in to trying to walk that tightrope between business and art. We are very fortunate to have him in our corner.

Anderton

kennywtelejazz

Sidroe
So, we have to talk the Chinese school system in to buying Sonar to get the SV fixed?  No problem!  LOL!

Hey I'm down , here's some Chinese Rock I just did in SONAR ….
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson/midi-guitar-moods-v-2-0 
maybe I can make a few bucks on the side and get somebody better than me to mix it 
 
Kenny

Hey, I like that. I appreciate someone who prefers contributing over mocking.

Hello Craig ,
 
Regarding my clip , it may be a little more " Crapanese " in a few places as opposed to being real authentic Chinese….
 
thank you for the comment  
 
I have read all your recent posts in this thread multiple times . Thanks for going into the details and bringing to light the inner workings of how a company such as Cakewalk does business ,  also some of the examples of what the other software companies are up against ….it seems to be a tough market and a tough gig for everybody .
 
At this point in time I have decided to change my stance and point of view ….
I don't happen to like being argumentitive , if I have happened to have said anything that may have offended any one in this thread or placed them in a position of feeling attacked .
I do offer my sincere amends publicly here right now .
 
When it comes to my personal views and how I choose to live my life I have found it to be a tough nut to balance expectations …..
As a human , I feel we all have them …in my case when a reasonable expectation crosses over the line and becomes an unreasonable expectation it signals to me that I may be doing something wrong ….
Although I may have fell off the grid musically some time ago  and I may have subjected myself to having to live very modestly due to personal finances …
I hold dear and steadfast  to my principles and ideals….
I feel that it is very wrong for me to criticize anybody for any reason unless they have asked me to point out a few things to them ….Also , I would never do it in a public arena /  forum ….
 
The people that have helped me the most in my life regardless of the area they were helping me in planted seeds ..
Many of these people throughout the years that have tried to help me have never gotten the opportunity to have seen the results of their efforts directed at me bear fruit….
I suppose a few happened to know that there were dealing with "a perfectionist with an inferiority complex "  up front…
 
For those of you that may be asking how does this apply ?
 
imho,  , Creativity is Creativity . Who am I to judge anyone else's creative process ? or how they choose to use their resources . 
 
In this case regarding the staff of the company of Cakewalk I am talking about a collective group of creative individuals who have joined forces to serve a need by providing a superior DAW product  ….
For me to criticize them unjustly is for me to attack them as individuals and as a whole ….
In my book it would be no different than a Cakewalk staff member saying " Hey Kenny you have had our software products for 10 years , when are you gonna learn how to use it correctly  ? a lot of the music you come up with sounds like $hitt " 
Or another musician saying to me " Hey K..you have been playing guitar for so many years , when are you gonna learn how to play Stella " 
 
As ridicules as my examples may sound on one level from my perspective , I'm just trying to put it out there for anybody that can read between the lines ….
 
I offer you my sincere appology if I happened to have said anything that may have offended you
 
Kenny 
 
 
 
 

Anderton
Now, let me give you an idea of what a solution would look like
"If you are willing to make the changes we require, we are prepared to order 10,000 copies of SONAR Professional. However, because we are buying in quantities, we want the price reduced to $100. We also want a physical distribution medium. Otherwise, we will look elsewhere."

Craig - I know this is a scenario, and it's very interesting idea. I also value the work and dialog you are bringing. 
 
However there is one major problem with the scenario (and I know it's not meant to be perfect example). It's that development takes *time*.  So it will never happen because by the time the request comes in - it's too late to do anything about it.  Customers are not going to wait when there are other off the shelf solutions.
 

I really think it's a pity that Staff View essentially gets ignored. I eventually determined that the PRV is a more functional way to edit and to a lesser extent enter music. However, the PRV most definitely takes far more space and thus gives me far less context. For someone like me, who "thinks" in notes, harmonies and longer runs, a functional Staff View really is the best way as it packs information very densely while not giving up much information.
I think its also pretty clear that Cakewalk doesn't consider my workflow mainstream, and have prioritized accordingly.

 Sidroe ,
 
I've already made my Peace and got my blindfold on ….
 
What side of the wall do you want , the left , the right or the center ? 
 
Kenny

As to the size of this industry, at one point way before the Yamaha acquisition Cubase's audio engine was really lagging behind the competition. People were going to the Cubase forum and berating Steinberg for the perceived deficiencies. What they didn't know was that the main architect of Steinberg's audio engine was a fellow named Mark Badger, who was a really sweet guy and died suddenly, at an early age, from a congenital heart defect. People who can write, let alone re-write, DAW audio engines don't grow on trees...and those who have the chops may not like the music industry's pay scale. That's reality, too - we're in an industry that's so small, entire companies - not just elements within a program - can be dependent on a single person.
 
[RIP, Mark. I always admired your dedication and some great conversations at trade shows.]
 
Another example: Cakewalk would love to do a new 64-bit version of the VC-64 (a fabulous plug-in, IMO). But they don't have the rights to modify it, and the person who created it cannot be found anywhere - and believe me, more people than Cakewalk have tried. So it just sits there. (DJs, cue Jimmy Cliff - "Sitting in Limbo").
 
 
 

BTW, I would love a 64 bit VC64!!!!!!!!
 

Sidroe
When we see on the news that a corporation buys another one out, as AT&T buys DIRECTv, we tend to think of thousands of employees in huge corporate buildings being laid off or moved around and re-structuring, hundreds of developers ganging together in a huge hall wrangling over the next update to blow away their customers, etc. That is the impression we got when Roland bought Cake, then Gibson bought Cake.

That's not at all the way it works. When Gibson buys a company, that company generally retains its independence unless it's failing and requires intervention. And you would be shocked not just how small Cakewalk is, but almost all music software companies - not just in terms of people, but also revenue and profitability (I gave examples in a previous post). Frankly I think for many (if not most) of the people at these companies, the only reason they stay in their jobs is because they have a passion for what they do.

Jimbo 88
Another example: Cakewalk would love to do a new 64-bit version of the VC-64 (a fabulous plug-in, IMO). But they don't have the rights to modify it, and the person who created it cannot be found anywhere - and believe me, more people than Cakewalk have tried. So it just sits there. (DJs, cue Jimmy Cliff - "Sitting in Limbo").
 
 
 
Cake should just go ahead and do it...let the guy come out and complain about the copyright and then we'll all know who the heck he/she is! (Oh and by the way here is your royalty check.)

Lawyers don't like to think that way...they're adverse to risk. I've actually thought about re-releasing some of my old albums to smoke out the people who haven't paid me royalty checks, but realized the cost of lawyers would likely use up any money I'd get.

KPerry
That's also assuming they have the source code, not just the packaged dll's!

There you go again, gettin' all scientific on me... 

Anderton
Hey guys - I've been working on the eZine, and found out that the dotted note drawing in Staff View has been improved for the next update. So fixes continue to happen, thread title notwithstanding 

YES! Maybe this means there's hope for my beloved triplets after all! 📢

LJ

Outstanding with the dot drawing! I am, also, waiting for correct triplets and especially correct 64th note entry and viewing. I just hate seeing a cluster of 12 to 24 notes hanging on one stem like a pear tree! Holy glissando, Batman!