Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 02:38:00
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Here's what I believe is the reality of the situation. - The thread title is 8 months old, and posted out of dismay there were no notation fixes when SONAR 2015 was introduced. Indeed, Platinum did not have staff view fixes at that time.
- There have been some staff view fixes since then. There was even a separate thread started after the staff view fixes started coming.
- The terms fixes, improvements, development, and enhancements seem to be used interchangeably and defined differently by different people. Based on my understanding of these terms, there's nothing inconsistent about Bill Jackson saying there are no current developments planned for staff view 8 months ago, and then implementing fixes more recently. I think it likely fixes have been made because people (including myself, not that anyone cares) continue pushing for fixes.
- No one doubts that there are people who use staff view and want improvements, but there are disagreements about what constitutes "improvements." Some think all that's really needed is fixes to what already exists, which I agree is the most realistic path to take for now. Others want more capabilities. Some would like better printable scores, others say that's a job for programs like Sibelius.
- There has been much speculation in this thread as to the importance of notation to the universe of DAW users, from "no one cares" to there's a huge, untapped bunch of people who would run to SONAR if only it had a better staff view. As far as I can recall, I'm the only person who posted anything based on actual sales data regarding DAWs and their inclusion, or lack thereof, of notation.
- I feel the only time this thread was constructively trying to improve staff view was when jsg presented what he felt were the most important fixes that needed to be made. The list was limited, precise, and specific. I alerted the bakers to it and forwarded the fixes he recommended to the product manager. I believe some of the subsequent fixes related to these although I don't know; since my days as a studio musician in New York are well behind me, I use staff view only to illustrate articles that involve some aspect of music theory, so I haven't been keeping score (sorry, pun alert) on which fixes were made or not made.
- Some people seem to feel that the presence of long-standing bugs indicates a cavalier attitude toward users. However staff view was integrated into SONAR many, many years ago. Developers have come and gone, the company has been sold and purchased twice, and I doubt whether anyone currently at Cakewalk is particularly familiar with the code. I do not know if parts of it were licensed. I believe there were also MIDI issues that needed to be addressed first, because staff view is based on MIDI.
- The programs that include a staff view (including pre-SONAR Cakewalk sequencers and DAWs) had their genesis in MIDI. At the time, staff view was very important to working with MIDI as the piano roll view was new. As the years went by, MIDI's popularity waned when digital audio became affordable. I believe one reason why DAWs created or designed after the first wave of MIDI, like Reason, Live, FL Studio, Studio One, etc. did not include notation (and note that the transition from Pro Audio to SONAR happened during that era as well) was because it appeared the future would eventually tilt toward digital audio over MIDI. Ableton Live didn't even include MIDI initially. However, as computers became faster, USB over MIDI became common, and virtual instruments became more sophisticated, MIDI had a renaissance as being a legitimate partner to digital audio, so staff view once again become relevant to those comfortable with that method of note entry and who needed score printing.
- Cakewalk takes surveys of the active user base regarding priorities because the people in forums tend to be the most vocal and not always the most representative. My personal opinion is that people in forums are often highly engaged, which adds weight to opinions given here, but that doesn't necessarily overrule what a scientific survey with a statistically representative sampling of active users indicates.
- Cakewalk is a small company with limited resources. Take a look at the features and requests forum, and there is an overwhelming number of things that people want. It is currently not possible for Cakewalk to implement even a fraction of them. The model of rolling out monthly fixes has, in fact, produced fixes to staff view where none had happened before but this model is only about seven and a half months old. During the past year or so the web site was re-designed from the ground up, the method of distribution was changed, a different provider for the store had to be integrated, the previous project manager left, the distribution chain shifted from Roland to Gibson, retailers dialed back on carrying boxed software, etc. That's a lot of changes for a small company to absorb.
- No one should think that developing notation is easy. Even the mighty Avid (which despite being weak on staff view, became a market leader over programs that had much better staff view) purchased expertise to upgrade the quality of their notation. Ditto PreSonus purchasing Notion, although notation has yet to be integrated as a view with Studio One Pro so it can't be that easy, even if you have the technology and a DAW to stuff it in.
- I truly believe if Cakewalk tried to develop staff view further, it would require sufficient resources that the rest of the program would suffer as a result. I think the most realistic solution is to fix whatever bugs there are. As I mentioned in a previous posts, some staff view bugs have been addressed (thread title notwithstanding) so I am assuming that fixes will continue.
I truly believe if Cakewalk thought putting a major effort into staff view was in the best interests of the company's survival and the majority of their users, they would give it a very high priority. Instead, I think they believe it's important enough to continue doing fixes but the priority is simply not as high as fixing other problems that relate to stability and therefore affect all users, or introducing features that can attract new users (no company can survive solely on updates from its core users). So, I suspect the rate of fixes will not be fast enough for those who want immediate changes now, but they will continue to be made as time and economic conditions allow. I realize I probably wasted my time writing this, because people's minds are made up. But I'm really trying to present an objective view as an active user (remember, I don't speak for Cakewalk, nor do I clear what I post with them) who has been engaged in the music software industry since the days of my first hand-soldered 6800-based microcontroller. Therefore I think it's a perspective that has some value.
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 02:49:15
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Compose!Score your music with SONAR’s integrated staff view - ideal for songwriters and composers  Chord Chart & TabNotate, compose, or print music with standard notation staff view and guitar tab - perfect for guitar students and teachers 
post edited by Kamikaze - 2015/09/11 02:58:02
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 03:05:02
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Sidroe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 08:19:51
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Thank You, Craig! I posted this thread out of dismay when I plunged in to SPLAT last January I believe it was. I was hoping that there would be a great improvement in the notation department but there were still the same problems as far as my uses. I had no idea that this thread would last this long and have such great responses. Firstly, I am stunned at my little comment blossoming in to this long, sometimes mundane, sometimes heated discussion! Secondly, as I stated earlier in the thread, interest in getting notation inside Sonar is obviously growing or this thread would have disappeared in a mist a LONG time ago.
I cling to the hope that the bakers will make some major leaps and bounds in the SV soon. It does seem to be the red-headed stepchild (no offence intended to red-heads) of Cakewalk. It does deserve attention. Notice I said deserve and not require!
If they don't intend to fix it, they should say so and if possible remove that feature from Cakewalk altogether! I would much rather buy a product or an upgrade knowing that it doe not have that feature rather than have invested more money in another DAW that has a feature that is as mis-represented as SV is now.
I am quite happy with Notion re-wired to Sonar but I would be ecstatic to have those features inside SPLAT. It would make my job so much easier. One of these days a real notation program with audio recording on limitless tracks and third party plugin capability will arrive on the scene and the whole game as far as audio with notation capability will change. Wouldn't Cake want to be that company?
Having said that, I will close by saying, I know how expensive a program like I just described could be and that would be a good enough reason to not spend the money to develop it. Nonetheless, Sonar is almost there. It is almost painful to see it growing the way it is and still dragging the SV problems like an anchor behind it.
C'mon guys! Fix it or ditch it. I'll still use Sonar anyway. And MOST of the people who have it will stilll use it too. But you could pick up a lot of sales by fixing this.
I really didn't mean for this post to go this long but I am convinced that with this outpouring of responses Cake has to sit up and take notice that this feature is really worth getting right! Thanks, Everyone!
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jatoth
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 08:32:20
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How comical, calling waiting over seven years, "wanting immediate changes now".
Nice work Kamikazi! An impressive list, I know there's more as you missed my posts.
Kind of quantifies "just a few vocal users".
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Orphaned at Birth 
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 09:05:27
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No notation fixes! I totally agree with the thread topic, there should be no fixes to notation as there are far better and more important things to spend time and resources on (Rapture Pro for instance). Bravo
post edited by Orphaned at Birth - 2015/09/11 10:09:15
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 10:38:50
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jatoth
How comical, calling waiting over seven years, "wanting immediate changes now". As I said: - Some people seem to feel that the presence of long-standing bugs indicates a cavalier attitude toward users. However staff view was integrated into SONAR many, many years ago. Developers have come and gone, the company has been sold and purchased twice, and I doubt whether anyone currently at Cakewalk is particularly familiar with the code. I do not know if parts of it were licensed. I believe there were also MIDI issues that needed to be addressed first, because staff view is based on MIDI.
I am talking about today. Some people want immediate fixes now, and based on this thread I am not wrong with that assessment. Nice work Kamikazi! An impressive list, I know there's more as you missed my posts.
Kind of quantifies "just a few vocal users". Unfortunately there are duplicates, so it's not the 121 users it appears to be (which unfortunately demonstrates it is a very small number of users compared to the total installed SONAR base), and the links don't work so it's impossible to check the posts to see if people were vocal supporters or offering comments. I picked one referenced user at random (djwayne) and didn't find any posts in January. I picked another one (svenarne) and his post said: "I admire the patience of the Staff View People! You haven't got thrown a bone since the early 2000s, but you still hang in there! I can actually read and write music to a fair degree, but I rarely ever use notation when DAWing." I don't see that as a big vote on the importance of staff view to that user. And as I said: - Cakewalk takes surveys of the active user base regarding priorities because the people in forums tend to be the most vocal and not always the most representative. My personal opinion is that people in forums are often highly engaged, which adds weight to opinions given here, but that doesn't necessarily overrule what a scientific survey with a statistically representative sampling of active users indicates.
Let's suppose that those 120 referenced posts are indeed from unique users, which they aren't, and that all the posts express the importance of staff view to the user, which apparently not all of them do. And let's suppose the number of enthusiastic SV supporters is actually 10 times that, or 1,200 people. That's still a small portion of the installed base. Please, think logically for a second: - If Cakewalk had internal research that showed something was extremely important to a significant percentage of its user base, and
- Implementing it would bring in large amounts of revenue, and
- The company had the technical ability to implement those changes
What possible reason would the company have for not doing it? Answer: They wouldn't, they would jump on it. So why aren't they jumping on it? I've already explained why. So if they're not jumping on an overhaul, is it logical to assume Cakewalk doesn't care about SV? No, because otherwise they wouldn't be making fixes. Also note that there are people who do use staff view and have said so in this and other threads. So I think it's important to at least note that it does meet the needs of some people. It makes no sense to consider SV as "all or nothing" where either you pull it out completely or fix it completely as that would be disservice to those who do use it. As noted, although I don't use it for day-to-day note entry, I do use it and would miss it if it wasn't there. Besides, if it was removed, that would preclude ongoing fixes that would eventually enhance functionality. They may come too late for users who require more from staff view than it currently provides, but it would serve new users well in the future. And now, it's time for me to think logically. Some people will continue to believe that SV is vitally important to the user base, that including a hot staff view would bring in considerable revenue, and Cakewalk has the resources at the present time to comply with the requests for staff view improvements. Based on all available factual information, none of these beliefs is true. I have tried my best to present an objective view of the situation, with the ultimate irony being that I am one of the people pushing for staff view improvements; but because I am, I've researched the topic and as a result understand the obstacles involved in making that happen. I have nothing more to say, so there is no point in continued participation in this thread unless challenged, or something points out something I said that's inaccurate and I need to acknowledge that. I believe that my opinions are based on facts that may not make some people happy, but are indeed facts. If other people want to believe something else, they're free to do so.
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 11:07:21
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So 111 user, apologies for for the duplicates, but I was trawling through posts in as systematic way as I could.
And this was in January and not over ever, but a range of posts post X series.
Lets suppose by your own equations we applied the 'interest equations' you use against anything else that users had expressed an interest in, it would be far less.
Can you give an example of anything else where 111 users had expressed support?
You really are cakewalks spin doctor (yeah I know you have no supposed 'vested' interest in).
Why can't they speak for themselves?
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Kamikaze
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 11:28:38
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Elffin
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 12:05:54
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What frustrates me is that the note icons removed in X1 could be added nearly instantly since Cakewalk employed the guy who made the sonar+ tool.. Implementing it back in would take virtually 0 resources!! For a program that is 'touch screen' orientated hiding note icon (values) seems bizarre...
post edited by Elffin - 2015/09/11 12:20:11
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 12:45:28
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Thanks to Craig for an extremely detailed and objective summary of the situation. I continue to use staff view heavily in my work. I recently bought Notion, and exporting my midi files there went smoothly. I am now touching up my sonar scores there and am very happy. I have not tried using rewire yet; since my projects are all long, symphonic works, staying in Sonar until I get them sounding sounding right, and then working on the score in Notion, makes more sense for me. I would be content for sonar's staff view to at least remain where it is now. Please don't take it away, then I would have no choice but to leave. I will almost certainly remain with Sonar as long as staff view remains. Of course, any significant improvements would be an inducement to upgrade (I'm still on 8.5).
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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microapp
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 12:46:44
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Kamikaze
The links worked in January when I posted them here,
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3153601
Not sure why they got broke in 9 months
Kamikaze, I think they changed servers when they integrated the store and forum accounts (late Jan ?) and this broke direct links. If you want a link to a post to be accessible indefinitely, you have to use the 'Findpost' method like you did above. I have only one thing to say regarding the discussion. How many Sonar users wanted a brand new buggy Start Screen ? How did this ever get by the beta testers anyway? I agree with Elffin and I suspect adding back the note icons would have taken less time than the new Start Screen.
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mettelus
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 14:03:01
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Kamikaze
Compose!Score your music with SONAR’s integrated staff view - ideal for songwriters and composers
Chord Chart & TabNotate, compose, or print music with standard notation staff view and guitar tab - perfect for guitar students and teachers
I opened SV for the first time in Platinum because I forgot about the chord chart and wanted to revisit it, then was shocked to see the font is incorrect. The closest thread I could find was in the Music Creator forum (and one over a decade old), so posted the image there.
post edited by mettelus - 2015/09/11 14:11:35
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 15:28:32
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Kamikaze
Can you give an example of anything else where 111 users had expressed support? Of course: stability fixes. And it's a helluva lot more than 111 users. You really are cakewalks spin doctor (yeah I know you have no supposed 'vested' interest in). I do have a vested interest - I want to be able to keep using SONAR. It is the best program for accomplishing my professional needs involving music, narration, and audio-for-video, and has been for 15 years. How I use SONAR and help other SONAR users understand the program (and as an aside, the modus operandi of the music software business) is something I do. How Cakewalk conducts their business and decides their priorities is what they do. As to "spin," you have not pointed out anything I said above that is inaccurate. Why can't they speak for themselves? Because their job is to work on the program. This is a peer-to-peer forum to help users get the most out of SONAR. JSG's posts and a few others notwithstanding that have described how they use SV, this thread does nothing to help users get the most out of SONAR. Many other forums would have kicked this thread into the trash a long time ago, not because of the negativity but the continuing redundancies from the same people. I've often said I don't speak for Cakewalk, it's even in my sig. But I am not ignorant as to how this business works, having consulted to Ableton, Mixcraft, Samplitude, MOTU, Avid, Passport, PreSonus, Steinberg, and probably some others I've forgotten about at the moment. I don't come here and shoot off my mouth with speculation. I study the market. I receive reports on trends and sales. I've given hundreds of seminars on technology and the arts in 38 states, 10 countries, and 3 languages. I've won an award for mastering. The views I present are informed by a lifetime in this industry. The tradeoff is simple: having the people doing the actual work answering posts would mean time not spent working on the program. Besides, no matter what they say, no one will be satisfied. The following is indisputable:- Cakewalk has not abandoned staff view. This is obvious because fixes have been made recently.
- Cakewalk is making fixes to staff view. This is obvious to anyone who reads the list of fixes published with each update.
- Cakewalk is not making fixes at a rate that satisfies many, if not most, of the people posting in this thread. This is obvious from the sentiments expressed by these people.
Nothing has changed in the above for months. I may have missed something, but I haven't seen any new thoughts or proposed solutions surface during that time, either.
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 16:11:52
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For some of the less observant people here who think I'm a Cakewalk apologist, consider this. After the start screen was released (and I disabled it a few days later), I spent two days analyzing the start screen and wrote a 7-page analysis including detailed comparative clickstreams of using the old start screen, using the new one, and using file commands; recommendations on how to improve it; bugs that had been reported in the forum; and features that could be added to it that IMO would greatly increase the value of the start screen and would result in people (or at least me) wanting to use it.
I don't complain, I present solutions. I believe many of them will be adopted. I lobby on behalf of requests from the user community all the time because I pay attention to these forums and the developers are, as they should be, working on the program. I pinged them about the Concrete Limiter fix (in final stages of testing). I asked about whether contrast changes in FX bins are forthcoming (there's more to it than just a few lines of code, and the topic is being reviewed along with other aspects of the UI - it would be stupid to make a change and then have to change it back a few months later because you didn't anticipate something properly). And yes, I kept the subject of staff view fixes in front of Cakewalk because I felt it was important - not for me, but for some people in the community and the program as a whole.
I've seen mentions of bugs that didn't have a recipe to reproduce and figured out how to reproduce them so they could be fixed. And by the way, Cakewalk was EXTREMELY appreciative that I took the time to do the Start Screen analysis because frankly, they're swamped. They were appreciative when jsg condensed the multiple rants about bugs to specific, quantifiable bugs whose squashing could then become a goal for the developers.
I'm transparent with both the community and Cakewalk, and interested only in solutions. When I feel I need to lobby on the community's behalf to Cakewalk because it's the right thing to do, that's what I do. When I feel I need to lobby on Cakewalk's behalf to the community because it's the right thing to do, that's what I do. I see no reason to change. And this is why it's an advantage to the community that I'm NOT part of Cakewalk but a hardcore SONAR user who relies on it virtually every day to accomplish specific, professional goals: I can see things from both sides.
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ptheisen
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 17:25:41
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Craig,
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have several thoughts. I'm trying to base them on facts, just as you are, which I appreciate. Just so you know, I am one of the people interested in staff view. I have contributed to this and other staff view threads in support of staff view improvements in the past, even though my name was not included in Kamikaze's search. I suspect there are more like me, but since I don't have any hard facts, I won't make any exaggerated claims.
1) You named stability fixes as a forum topic that has more people participating than staff view. Stability fixes is a pretty general topic, I don't think it is fair to compare that with a specific feature such as staff view. Can you name any other specific Sonar feature that has threads with more people participating?
2) When microapp asked his question about how many Sonar users wanted a new start screen, while you gave a lengthy and admirable response, you did not actually address his questions at all. So we're left to wonder, what are the facts about the number of people that asked for a new start screen? If we knew there were many requests for it, we would better understand why Cakewalk chose to implement it.
3) In one of your posts, you raised the possibility that Cakewalk's scientific surveys may paint a different picture than the traffic in the forum. That is certainly possible, but I don't think we've been shown the actual results of those surveys (I could have missed it). Would it be possible for Cakewalk to release the information from a recent survey so that we all would have the facts about the desires and priorities of their overall user base? That might help people to set their expectations to reasonable levels in many ways.
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 17:27:06
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Anderton
I'm transparent with both the community and Cakewalk,
Yes Craig, but do keep your emails on a server in your basement? Inquiring minds want to know. The security of Sonar Nation is at stake. (Incidentally, for true email security, I recommend Proton Mail. Their server is inside a granite mountain in Switzerland).
post edited by michael diemer - 2015/09/11 23:42:48
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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rabeach
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 17:32:34
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cakewalk please fix the staff view so it works as advertised. if you are unable to fix it please remove it from the application. as a humorous note: you could just make pro audio 9 run on win 10 :-)
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jatoth
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 17:47:00
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Just for the record. To clarify Craig's repetitive "There have been fixes to Staff View".
Yes there have been.
Staff View Fixes since January - 5
Dorchester (2 fixes)
Tracks are now listed numerically in the Staff View (CWBRN-8767)
Staff View Track Pane no longer forgets picked tracks when changing screensets (CWBRN-14421)
Everett (2 fixes)
Staff View Snap values would not update in certain cases (CWBRN-17277)
View > Staff View now updates an open Staff View with new track selection (CWBRN-32843)
Foxboro (1 fix)
Resolved an issue where extra notes were added to MIDI data when lyrics were entered in Staff View
These are all I could find in the KB notes. If anyone can add to this list, please do.
PRV fixes since January - 24
Total documented fixes - 242
If it is all about prioritizing user interest, there are obviously 5 times the users interested in PRV.
And SV users are only 2% of user base.
This doesn't take into consideration how many of these fixes were regression bugs, which would definitely skew the percentages.
Don't get me wrong, I am thrilled to see any attention given to SV. Please, Bakers, don't stop now.
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 19:10:01
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Actually, I don't need to worry about Cakewalk getting rid of staff view. Since I use 8.5, it will always be there. Whew, that was a close one!
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 20:29:46
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ptheisen
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have several thoughts. Cool. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but educational. 1) You named stability fixes as a forum topic that has more people participating than staff view. Well, we're kind of off to a bad start, because that is not a fact. I responded to the following: "Can you give an example of anything else where 111 users had expressed support?" I never named stability fixes as a forum topic. It has come up in multiple contexts spread over multiple topics. Stability fixes is a pretty general topic, I don't think it is fair to compare that with a specific feature such as staff view. Specific features don't matter if the program doesn't run properly, crashes, or has incompatibility issues with operating systems or other pieces of hardware. People might use Matrix view, Loop Construction, Video, Staff View, whatever - all of them are affected if there are instabilities in the general program. I keep mentioning priorities. I think few would feel that nailing down any one specific feature is more important than overall program stability. 2) When microapp asked his question about how many Sonar users wanted a new start screen, while you gave a lengthy and admirable response, you did not actually address his questions at all. So we're left to wonder, what are the facts about the number of people that asked for a new start screen? If we knew there were many requests for it, we would better understand why Cakewalk chose to implement it. As I explained: "Instead, I think they believe it's important enough to continue doing fixes but the priority is simply not as high as fixing other problems that relate to stability and therefore affect all users, or introducing features that can attract new users (no company can survive solely on updates from its core users). I don't recall a thread where hundreds of people asked for ARA to be implemented so there could be a great Melodyne implementation. So, should Cakewalk have not done that? Of course not. Melodyne was a hugely popular addition to X3, and ARA laid the groundwork that allows for modules like the Drum Replacer. Some people have mentioned liking Studio One's start screen, which probably got the thought processes rolling. IIRC Logic has a start screen, so does GarageBand. So does Cubase where you get to choose the type of project you want to start. Apparently Cakewalk thought the Start Screen was becoming de riguer for DAWs and wanted to keep up with the competition. Nor is this Start Screen the end of it, further development is already planned that takes customer feedback (and mine, LOL) into account. And before you say "But the competition has staff view, Cakewalk has to keep up with that to stay competitive," please re-read my posts on sales of programs with and without staff views. 3) In one of your posts, you raised the possibility that Cakewalk's scientific surveys may paint a different picture than the traffic in the forum. That is certainly possible, but I don't think we've been shown the actual results of those surveys (I could have missed it). Would it be possible for Cakewalk to release the information from a recent survey so that we all would have the facts about the desires and priorities of their overall user base? Of course not!!!! With all due respect, this is the real world and companies, magazines, web sites, etc. guard proprietary surveys (which cost money to create) because they are designed to give companies a competitive advantage in terms of anticipating needs of the market. Have you seen any user survey results published by Ableton, Avid, Steinberg, etc.? No. It would be stupid to announce to the industry "Hey, people really like Melodyne and think it's way better than V-Vocal. You guys better get on the stick and include ARA integration as fast as possible to blunt any competitive advantage we might get from having it out before you." Let me add a comment of my own. Either by accident or intention, people keep omitting that I keep stressing it's about more than numbers. One more time... Please, think logically for a second:- If Cakewalk had internal research that showed something was extremely important to a significant percentage of its user base, and
- Implementing it would bring in large amounts of revenue, and
- The company had the technical ability to implement those changes
What possible reason would the company have for not doing it? Answer: They wouldn't, they would jump on it. So why aren't they jumping on it? I've already explained why. Based on historical sales figures from anyone who has access to multiple years of MI Sales Trak ("Why can't you share that information, Craig?" "Because it's copyrighted and expensive. They wouldn't be happy with my giving it away for free. Buy your own subscription and educate yourself"), having a solid staff view is no guarantee of a sales increase. In fact it's very clear that the fastest-selling DAWs in recent history are ones that DON'T have staff view. Then there's the question of the resources to devote to something that doesn't score high on internal surveys and has not been a significant factor in overall DAW sales (although of course, it is a factor for those who want staff view, because they will pick the program that suits their needs best).
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 20:31:56
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jatoth
Just for the record. To clarify Craig's repetitive "There have been fixes to Staff View".
Yes there have been.
Thank you for confirming. BTW the bug fix lists are only highlights. There are many more fixes that occur with each release but they're not particularly exciting or deal with some technical issue that was necessary to fix in order to fix a public-facing bug.
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 20:48:46
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Now, let me give you an idea of what a solution would look like. A solution is not 100 or even a thousand people complaining in a forum thread. Here's an actual solution:
The head of the Shanghai school system, which is PC-based, wants a standard DAW to use in their music classes. After studying the competition, they feel SONAR is best because it handles loops, video, has a matrix view, runs on laptops or desktops, is developed in close cooperation with Microsoft, and includes so many useful effects and instruments that would save the school system from spending additional money on plug-ins. They are also thrilled that there is a Chinese language version with simplified Chinese, and a Chinese PDF document. However, they are disappointed in staff view so they contact Cakewalk saying "We would like to use SONAR Professional, but we find the staff view needs improvements to fit our needs.
"If you are willing to make the changes we require, we are prepared to order 10,000 copies of SONAR Professional. However, because we are buying in quantities, we want the price reduced to $100. We also want a physical distribution medium. Otherwise, we will look elsewhere."
Cakewalk does the math: (($100 x 10,000) - $50,000 for duplication, packaging, and shipping) = $950,000. Now, THAT meets the three requirements:
1. Enough people want it.
2. It will bring in significant revenue.
3. The significant revenue can pay for the resources needed to implement the changes.
It's just that simple. That's how the real world works...and don't think Cakewalk isn't looking for these kinds of opportunities.
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AT
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 21:09:36
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I think it is great to have our own contact through Craig to the higher ups. I'm sure the bakers spend some time here but Craig keeps his thumb on the pulse here. It is nice to know.
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Sidroe
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 21:16:58
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So, we have to talk the Chinese school system in to buying Sonar to get the SV fixed? No problem! LOL!
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 21:25:27
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Sidroe
So, we have to talk the Chinese school system in to buying Sonar to get the SV fixed? No problem! LOL!
Right, go ahead and laugh. I thought some people might want to know what a "solution" looks like, but I guess I was wrong. There are various potential scenarios. The point is how to satisfy the three requirements. If anyone here has actual ideas beyond the idea that complaining solves problems, I'd love to the hear them. Anyone here run a school system? You might be surprised at some of the things I've put together.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 21:48:02
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 21:57:22
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rabeach
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 22:07:09
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now i'm just poking fun but if we have to go out an market to 10,000 Chinese in order to get the staff view to work...what we need now is one of the professional users of sonar to step in and say that they don't want some client looking over their shoulder asking about the staff view. :-)
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noynekker
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Re: No notation fixes!
2015/09/11 22:14:36
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Elffin
What frustrates me is that the note icons removed in X1 could be added nearly instantly since Cakewalk employed the guy who made the sonar+ tool.. Implementing it back in would take virtually 0 resources!!
For a program that is 'touch screen' orientated hiding note icon (values) seems bizarre...
Yes, I like this post, it has a ring of truth amongst all the rhetoric, and I agree with Craig's comments about let's hear some realistic improvement ideas about staff view. If they implemented jsg's ideas it would send a serious signal to the Cakewalk staff users. Yeah, hope. When I hear people posting about if they're not going to fix it, let's lose it, I can only shake my head, because for me staff view is very usable in it's current state, we just want to make it better don't we ? Like most, I don't want a magnificent staff view notation system . . . I want the staff view midi editor improved.
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