db66murray

Anderton
I need to re-emphasize that SV is not a forgotten or dead topic at Cakewalk. There are frequent discussions as to how best address this issue, with the main problems being that any potential solutions (including doing only a makeover of the existing SV) are a) mutually exclusive, b) have unique drawbacks that are difficult to circumvent, and c) Cakewalk cannot afford to make an expensive mistake, so any options have to be studied exhaustively. It's sometimes better to do nothing than do something wrong.
 
To give you an idea of how undead this topic is, today I was updated on a potential solution that I stumbled upon last summer and passed along to CW for consideration. That doesn't mean a solution is closer or further away. But it seems many people believe Cakewalk doesn't care and isn't actively pursuing a solution. That speculation has no basis in reality.
 

I realize I'm coming late to the discussion, but why did Cakewalk make a deliberate decision to break Staff View in the first place?

It's never been elegant, but at least what was there used to work. I'm not even talking about reassigning long-established shortcuts to do something else. That's annoying enough, but I'm just talking about just clicking on the screen and having notes appear where I place them.

I have Finale, but I still find Staff View in Sonar 8.5 to be the fastest way to get notes on the screen short of playing them and recording the MIDI data live. Staff View in Platinum, by comparison, is pretty much useless. 

It still works.  It really does.  I use it regularly.  I have more problem with the culture and the company than I do with the staff view.  I wrote to Noel Borthwick twice, not even a brief email as to acknowledge receipt of my email, even though I've been buying Sonar products for 25 years.  Most of my problem reports go unfixed for years, although I give them credit for fixing some of the issues, including some staff view issues.   Now I wonder if they will fix the paste-special bug, which precludes me from moving to the latest version.   They most likely will never fix the tied and dotted triplet issue, that's why at least two people I know have moved to Reaper. 
 
Getting rid of the note icons really is not a big deal at all.  Just use keybindings to create the note values, it's easier and, actually, it involves fewer keystrokes than choosing a note icon from the screen. 
 
q=quarter note
e=eighth note
s= sixteenth note
etc.
Shift + q= dotted quarter, etc.
Ctrl + q = triplet quarter, etc...
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 

db66murray

jsg
 
It still works.  It really does. 

It really doesn't. 
https://youtu.be/_iUyOlVQB_0

https://youtu.be/OTREpd8iSqU
 
 

I watched the videos.  The snap feature works the same way in Digital Performer.  Have you tried watching the cursor location box while doing the insert, which tells you exactly where you're placing the note?   The snap feature could be improved, although some like it the way it is because if you want to put half note a 16th note into a beat you can.  I am running Platinum 22.7 and when I insert an a4 as you did I can easily place a middle c underneath it.  Not sure why you're having that issue and I am not.
 
Don't misunderstand, the staff view desperately needs some bug fixing, including giving the musician the option to turn snap on or off and have the note pop into the right part of the beat easily.  As I said, there is some advantage by not having that because you can place a longer note-value into a part of the beat rather than on the beat.   There should be that option.   Don't give up.  Every DAW I've tried, including, Reaper, Digital Performer and Cubase has issues with the staff view.  Those who expect notation in a DAW to replace a real notation program are going to be disappointed for a long time.  My view is more realistic:  The staff view is a MIDI editor, as are the event list and the PRV.  I'm not approving of the way Cakewalk drags its feet in regards to fixing and improving it (like the 20 year old tied- and dotted-triplet issue), but I am saying that the staff view, as is, is completely functional and usable, otherwise how would you explain how I produced these recent works (all done in notation view):
 
www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Music%20for%20Twelve%20Instruments.mp3
www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/In%20Time%20There%20Will%20Be%20No%20Time.mp3
http://www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Ninth%20Symphony%203rd%20movement.mp3
 
Jerry

I should probably add for context that I have used Cakewalk all the way back to the time it was a MIDI-only program. My frustration here is not that of a brand new user. I haven't owned every version, but I have upgraded several times over the years. I bought X3, but never used it...finally bought Platinum when they offered the lifetime upgrade. I've owned at least five versions since the name was changed to Sonar, and had several pre-Sonar versions of Cakewalk as well. I don't criticize them lightly, but they utterly dropped the ball when they disabled the features of Staff View that had worked for a number of versions. 
 

jsg
I used Sonar 7 for many years, pretty much same as 8.5 and I can tell you my experience is that it was not any faster.  When I first saw that CW removed the note icons I freaked out too, but after using keybindings I found that it's actually faster than having to click on a note icon. 

 
I never at any point mentioned the missing icons as being an issue. 
 
Older versions of Sonar had keybindings including 8.5 and before. I've used them for years. Tap 1 for a whole note, 2 for a half, 4 for a quarter, and tap a period to add dot note, etc. There was even a keyboard shortcut to switch on triplets. When I say it was faster, that's based on using the keyboard shortcuts. 

They did away with those as well as the icons, but I know how to restore some of that function with keybindings. Platinum already has a few of them set, but you now have to hold down ctrl and shift, which is more awkward than before. 
 
It's the lack of snap that's made the process of entering notes slower and more frustrating. 

And sure, I can look at the cursor box to see precisely where I'm placing the note, but that also is slower than having notes just snap right into place as long as I'm in the neighborhood of the right spot. If half notes only snapped to quarter notes, I wouldn't miss when clicking almost directly on the Now line. 
  

jsg
I look at it this way:  If I can find a better DAW I'd leave Sonar in a second.  But there really isn't one. Every single DAW has its bugs and ways of doing things that some will like and some will not.   But then again, is there anything or anyone in this world that has achieved perfection?  I think not. 

 
Again, you are making assumptions that have zero to do with my complaint. I don't expect it to be perfect. As I said before, I simply expect the functions that were in the previous version to continue to work as well as they did before. Changing some things around is absolutely fine, but when it's changed and I can no longer use it at all like before, that's when I complain. 

For those that are really serious about notation why don't you use a program that actually specialises it. Have you checked out Steinberg Dorico yet. The review of it is pretty convincing.
 
Also I would imagine that Studio One with Notion attached would be far better than anything Sonar is offering right now too. 

Jeff Evans
 
Also I would imagine that Studio One with Notion attached would be far better than anything Sonar is offering right now too. 

SONAR Staff View with all its warts is still better than the current first iteration of the integration between Notion and Studio One.  I own Studio One 3 and demoed Notion with the current "integration".  It is cumbersome and only a marginal improvement over exporting/importing MIDI files between the two applications.  Maybe the integration will improve and become seamless in the future, but that is not the current state.

While I agree with the gist of your post, JW, I think that this is the sort of feedback that is likely to make the developers sit back on their laurels. While pointing out correctly the strengths of staff view, it minimizes its weaknesses. I can see them saying, "See, staff view is pretty much fine the way it is. No need to fool with it. They will accept it as is." And it will continue to fall farther behind the times. 
 
mike, aka bumptious blowhard

slartabartfast
 For most users Sonar is a recording device or a musical instrument, not primarily a method of preserving music for the post digital age when flesh-eating rappers rule the streets and computers can only show cat videos.
 

You paint a very grim picture of the post digital apocolyptic world. Imagine, running down the street for your life, pursued by flesh eating rappers,screaming at the top of your lungs "no.. more.. CAT VIDEOS... ARGGGGHH!!!"
 
I shudder.

jsg

Bill Jackson [Cakewalk]
We frequently (annuallyish) investigate Staff View improvements, or even an overhaul. It's not "dead" nor "abandoned." It has just been "deferred" due to other priorities that impact a larger group of customers. Don't lose hope.

Two years and 5 months since the above was written, and no notation bug fixes.  The PRV gets fixes nearly every single release.  Reminds me of the "boy who cried wolf". 

Its one thing to voice your concerns but calling Bill Jackson "the boy who cried wolf". (Basically calling him a liar) is classless. Even the most frustrated need not resort to such dungeon/cellar comments.

ampfixer
I seldom use PRV and never use Staff View, but I see the issues. My thought is that under the hood, these features are intertwined. I suspect that the many PRV changes could break other features that are internally connected. That seems to be a recurring theme with Sonar as it sits.  Lots of old code and a growing list of new features. Fix something on the right and something on the left stops working.
 Most of the new features come out 80% complete and they correct and tune over the next few releases. Many of the monthly updates listed as fixes are for relatively new features, not the chronic issues. It seems that any issue that's been a problem for 10 years will be a problem 10 years from now.

Or, in the case of staff view, it will only be more problematic.
 
This is really making it difficult for me to justify shelling out clams for SPLAT.
 
Let's see what happens during the next couple of months.

Maybe that Reaper 5 has built in notation that to some point fixes triplets will make Cake reconsider when staff makeover is on todo list.
 
Still evaluating compared to Cubase notation, but seems obvious things are in Reaper - still lacking in Sonar.
 
Things in Sonar I think are well done was chord diagrams and fretboard entry etc.

Brettx
I just found out that Cakewalk no longer sells upgrade licences so I'd have to pay the full amount to get the latest version. I'm the newest versions have many great new features but I use a lot of MIDI and notation, if I was going to shell out hundreds of dollars I'd go for Cubase.

You might want to read Cakewalk's announcement from earlier this month: http://cwk.io/legacy
 

I too fell your pain, Jerry. I have given up ranting about Staff View. CW has shown they are just trying to placate those of us that want fixes. They keep telling us what we want to here, while doing nothing.
Sorry Cake, but bugs, excuses and promises for 10 years, really? The entire Staff View could have been rewritten in less than a year.
 

jsg

chuckebaby

jsg

Bill Jackson [Cakewalk]
We frequently (annuallyish) investigate Staff View improvements, or even an overhaul. It's not "dead" nor "abandoned." It has just been "deferred" due to other priorities that impact a larger group of customers. Don't lose hope.

Two years and 5 months since the above was written, and no notation bug fixes.  The PRV gets fixes nearly every single release.  Reminds me of the "boy who cried wolf". 

Its one thing to voice your concerns but calling Bill Jackson "the boy who cried wolf". (Basically calling him a liar) is classless. Even the most frustrated need not resort to such dungeon/cellar comments.

I didn't use the term "liar", you did.   The Boy who Cried Wolf is a folk tale about a boy, not a man, who is being mischievous, not malicious, and people stop believing him. 
 
Cakewalk has been saying publicly and privately to me that the notation editor is about to get some attention.  The last time I heard this from a CW employee was back in January.   It's getting old.  I'd rather CW say:
 
"Listen, folks, we're never going to put any energy into the staff view, and we never will.  Get over it.  Enjoy Sonar for what it is".
 
No relationship, whether personal, business or otherwise, does well when people are led to believe that someone will do something when they have no intent or interest in doing it. Congruence between words and actions builds trust, a lack of congruence between words and actions reduces trust, it's basic human nature. 
 
I disagree with your ethical perspective.
 
 

 
I don't agree with calling out Cakewalk staff (on the forum they pay for and let us use).
I will leave it at that.