mudgel
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 14:20:32
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☄ Helpfulby ampfixer 2017/06/27 17:34:37
Cakewalk make very good use out of Jerry's expertise in producing MIDI masterpieces by connecting his works with Sonar's notation abilities. Jerry himself defends his use of Cakewalk by having the work output to show off what it can do. The trouble is it takes a master editor/composer like Jerry to squeeze that sort of result out of Sonar.
Considering Jerry is so very well qualified I don't blame him for calling out Cakewalk when promises have been made and not lived up to.
It's been a long road and despite a few tiny updates to Notation many of the problems occur when an existing feature just doesn't work anymore. Maybe in adding a new feature in the MIDI area it impacts Notation and the choice is made to benefit Midi overall, Notation has to suffer? I don't know, I'm just speculating. Despite the many hints that Notation will get some attention it still hasn't happened.
I admire your patience Jerry and I hope that you get the changes you need to improve your working lot.
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35mm
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 14:48:43
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I think the snobby comments suggesting that most Sonar users have no notation abilities isn't going to help the cause. I personally do most of my music production by ear. However, the sequencer I used mostly in the 90's was C-Lab Notator and I can work with notation. I don't use the staff view in Sonar because it's always appeared to me to be a token afterthought and not a serious part of Sonar. If it was a more serious and functional tool, I would use it and I'm sure many others would too.
Sonar is very good and very functional at what it does so I can use it without any inbuilt notation and so I've been quiet in this thread so far. I do though, support the movement for better notation tools in Sonar and can't really view Sonar as a complete DAW package until that happens. I can understand that for Cake to completely develop a notation system in-house would be a massive undertaking and that its development would be at the expense of other pressing updates and developments. So maybe, rather than reinvent the wheel, a currently existing and established notation system could be licensed and integrated into Sonar. Either way, I can see it's a pretty major issue that Cake should be addressing rather than keeping it on the backburner, but snobs who believe they are the elite few who are capable of using notation, simply serve to keep it as a low priority for now.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 15:10:53
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chuckebaby
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 17:10:58
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OMG I had to edit this comment to clean up the coffee I spit every where from laughing so hard. that comment was awesome. Just so you guys are aware, im all for Staff view updates. I think it should have been done a long time ago. However, I think it can discussed in a productive way. It just seems every time one of these SV threads come up it turns in to something like a tonewood discussion on YouTube. It gets out of hand Easily. Jerry bumped this thread (after being dead 4 months) to say what again ? to call Bill Jackson "Boy who cried wolf" I just don't see productivity in that. I also don't see "Patience" in that and I definitely don't "Admire" that. I've also realized I have no business being in this thread. I don't use Staff View, I use the PRV and play real instruments (I swear that's not a dig, im just explaining what I use). I do read/write music, I just find it easier to use PRV. So best wishes.
post edited by chuckebaby - 2017/06/27 21:36:52
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 18:16:14
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AllanH
I've given up on Staff view. The new PRV is excellent, and for recording and programming midi, the PRV is (imo) more accurate anyway. Took a while to adjust.
Well, maybe it is wishful thinking on my part, but it is possible that all the work on PRV recently is actually a positive thing for staff view. It seems to me that of all the functional pieces of SONAR, PRV is the closest to staff view. It could be that we are seeing essentially a full overhaul of PRV, that could then be a better foundation for staff view modernization. As a person who is hoping for more from staff view than a few often requested bug fixes, I hold out some hope.
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abacab
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 18:50:28
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☄ Helpfulby riojazz 2017/06/28 13:11:45
Maybe all of the prerequisites have been dropping into place. First the PRV enhancements ... then ripple editing ... now time for some staff view love!  Then it will be time to consider arranger tracks, chord tracks, etc. 
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pbognar
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 19:04:51
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jatoth
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 20:29:22
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35mm
I think the snobby comments suggesting that most Sonar users have no notation abilities isn't going to help the cause.
Those of us using Staff View aren't being "snobby", we have been told time and time again that we are a very small minority of Sonar users and that is why SV doesn't get the attention. The bakers are too busy working on features that more people will use. Then come the promises. "We're looking into it", "something IS in the works", "maybe soon". Yet nothing materializes month after month. I personally have been waiting 9 years, others even longer!
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Kev999
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 21:51:30
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jatoth
Those of us using Staff View aren't being "snobby", we have been told time and time again that we are a very small minority of Sonar users and that is why SV doesn't get the attention...
The assumption seems to be that Staff View only exists for an elite who work on classical orchestration. I believe that Staff View should be part of everyone's toolkit. It's unfortunate that so many people dismiss it.
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Pragi
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 22:10:04
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Seems that the staff view friends try through persistent
discussions to reach an update.
Respect .
Hope it will not end in frustration,
cause CW mentioned many times not updating SW.
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cparmerlee
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 22:44:12
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Kev999
The assumption seems to be that Staff View only exists for an elite who work on classical orchestration. I believe that Staff View should be part of everyone's toolkit. It's unfortunate that so many people dismiss it.
Chicken, meet egg. More people WOULD use it if it worked better and were easier to use. In an ideal world, staff view should be functionally equivalent to PRV (MIDI) view. There should be no advantage or disadvantage to working in one or the other, and a person should be able to jump between the two seamlessly. And staff view should provide a robust gateway to and from other notation products via MusicXML.
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Anderton
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/27 22:58:17
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jatoth
Then come the promises. "We're looking into it", "something IS in the works", "maybe soon".
To be fair, no promises have been made; those statements are accurate because the quest for improved notation is indeed ongoing. Since Cakewalk was acquired over three years ago proposals have been made, potential solutions have been evaluated, and it's even gotten to the stage of "almost there" negotiations with some parties. But it's also true that nothing significant has happened in that time. It's not a trivial problem that lends itself to a simple solution. If it was, it would have been fixed long ago. I believe that this thread has done nothing to either speed up or slow down implementing a solution. Cakewalk has been actively seeking answers long before this thread was started, but from a cost vs. benefit standpoint, so far any potential solutions have not been feasible for one reason or another. Yet there remains a strong desire to find and implement a better Staff View. Hey, we got ripple editing, colorization, synth recording, and a revampled PRV and Matrix View. Who knows what's next.
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jsg
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 00:24:35
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☄ Helpfulby riojazz 2017/06/28 13:14:00
35mm
I think the snobby comments suggesting that most Sonar users have no notation abilities isn't going to help the cause. I personally do most of my music production by ear. However, the sequencer I used mostly in the 90's was C-Lab Notator and I can work with notation. I don't use the staff view in Sonar because it's always appeared to me to be a token afterthought and not a serious part of Sonar. If it was a more serious and functional tool, I would use it and I'm sure many others would too.
Sonar is very good and very functional at what it does so I can use it without any inbuilt notation and so I've been quiet in this thread so far. I do though, support the movement for better notation tools in Sonar and can't really view Sonar as a complete DAW package until that happens. I can understand that for Cake to completely develop a notation system in-house would be a massive undertaking and that its development would be at the expense of other pressing updates and developments. So maybe, rather than reinvent the wheel, a currently existing and established notation system could be licensed and integrated into Sonar. Either way, I can see it's a pretty major issue that Cake should be addressing rather than keeping it on the backburner, but snobs who believe they are the elite few who are capable of using notation, simply serve to keep it as a low priority for now.
Look, I regret you see as snobbishness what I see as a healthy respect for the achievement that western music notation has contributed to the advancement of musicality on our world. A DAW needs a good notation editor for sequencing purposes, not for publishing purposes or rehearsal purposes. I play be ear too, I actually think playing by ear and improv are essential skills for a musician. Nobody is asking Sonar to merge with Sibelius and make a superduper SCRIBEDAW ;>). Just fix a few bugs, put back a few features and go on to other things.
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Brettx
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 00:27:10
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35mm
I can understand that for Cake to completely develop a notation system in-house would be a massive undertaking and that its development would be at the expense of other pressing updates and developments. So maybe, rather than reinvent the wheel, a currently existing and established notation system could be licensed and integrated into Sonar. Either way, I can see it's a pretty major issue that Cake should be addressing rather than keeping it on the backburner, but snobs who believe they are the elite few who are capable of using notation, simply serve to keep it as a low priority for now.
To be clear, what most of are asking for is not a notation system but a properly functional staff view and limited printing.
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abacab
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 13:48:52
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Not being a snob, but reading and writing music on a staff is fundamental to a traditional music education.
I usually use PRV, but I do think it lacks the workflow that thinking in musical notation does. For example, if you are working in something other than C Major, how do you keep track of your key signature in PRV? What about triplets, dotted 1/8th notes, etc? How do you visually indicate the length of a rest other than a blank space?
If you want to communicate a musical idea, written notation has proven itself as the best medium over several centuries of use.
What is so odd about wanting to be able to input those ideas into a DAW without hassles?
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chuckebaby
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 14:16:07
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abacab
Not being a snob, but reading and writing music on a staff is fundamental to a traditional music education.
I usually use PRV, but I do think it lacks the workflow that thinking in musical notation does. For example, if you are working in something other than C Major, how do you keep track of your key signature in PRV? What about triplets, dotted 1/8th notes, etc? How do you visually indicate the length of a rest other than a blank space?
If you want to communicate a musical idea, written notation has proven itself as the best medium over several centuries of use.
What is so odd about wanting to be able to input those ideas into a DAW without hassles?
I respect this comment very much. And you are right/have a good point. However in PRV it is musical as well as long as your working in a musical timeline format: (1:01 / 2:01 = 4 beats = 1 measure) Using Snap for beat durations. But you bring up some good points about sharing ideas in the format which has been used for 100's of years. I first started playing guitar 30+ years ago. I took music lessons when I was 10 years old for piano and all we had back then was music theory to learn from. However we are seeing a he decline in guitar orientated music and music driven by our 6 string friends are not as much the music of choice. now a day. It might be possible the same thing is happening with written music. In a day we live in, tab has become more popular (for some its the lazy way of reading music) and PRV seems to have become the more popular choice of the large portion of song writers. That being said, there are still scores written for movies and Staff view is important. I believe most of that can be done on a music editor software and not Sonar. but I do believe Sonar's users deserve some improvements to SV. Because some users bought Sonar for sole use of SV. I can understand how those users would be upset. It would be like if the PRV hadn't had improvements in 10 years or so. I would be upset. but im not sure I would put in the effort of being frustrated day after day, waiting 2 years and 5 months. I would move on to something that could allow me to use my skills in a better way. Because their is always other choices.
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abacab
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 14:23:51
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abacab
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 14:30:20
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chuckebaby
That being said, there are still scores written for movies and Staff view is important. I believe most of that can be done on a music editor software and not Sonar. but I do believe Sonar's users deserve some improvements to SV.
Because some users bought Sonar for sole use of SV. I can understand how those users would be upset.
It would be like if the PRV hadn't had improvements in 10 years or so. I would be upset. but im not sure I would put in the effort of being frustrated day after day, waiting 2 years and 5 months. I would move on to something that could allow me to use my skills in a better way. Because their is always other choices.
I don't really think that what most users are asking for are any additional features, or a completely integrated notation application. They just want to be able to input notes without bugs, and maybe restore some functionality that was apparently removed. If that was all Cakewalk did, they could say it was mission accomplished! I agree that formatting and printout should be the domain of specialized applications.
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interpolated
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 14:38:40
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At least a third party composer program with some elements missing might fill some of the voids. Cubase seem to have got the scoring bit a better though. For a couple of years, I used a baby version of Finale which was OK for the level I am at.
I think though if you are composer (frustrated one too) you do need the tools to follow that through.
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Brando
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 15:05:56
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/06/28 15:21:39
Jerry has Sibelius (at least). Most users are looking for staff view as an entry/editing view within SONAR. 3rd party options or REWIRE don't fill the same need without major workflow changes.
Even the name used for this thread (notation) is a bit misleading as it implies that the need is more on the notation side rather than staff view as an integrated view for midi data within SONAR.
Brando
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Tim Flannagin
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 20:37:47
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Sylvan
Cakewalk has plenty of pride in their craftsmanship. I don't agree with your feelings on that. In my opinion, SONAR excels as an audio and MIDI editor; a DAW which is what SONAR is. I realize that SONAR may not have some notation features that some other DAWS may have, but there are 3rd party products or there that specialize in that area. I know, SONAR can't be everything for everyone and it can't make everyone happy all the time. But all in all, it's quite a package with exceptional value. Maybe they will get around to notation later on. I hope they do for people like you. But for now, I am happy they are concentrating on the core of being a audio and MIDI recorder/editor/mixer.
+1 brother. My Mixer board, nor 8-Track would do notation either. I think that it's a specialty function better left to specialty packages.
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abacab
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 21:04:52
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It seems that this discussion basically breaks down into two opposite viewpoints that will probably never see eye to eye on the issue. 1. The users that compose music using MIDI as their main tool for recording/editing. 2. Those that view a DAW as a digital tape recorder/editor/mixer. Sonar rules! Something for everybody, LOL! But the staff view is just as integral part of MIDI editing as the PRV is. If it's broken, it should be fixed. I think this discussion began regarding fixes, not feature requests!
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Kev999
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/28 21:45:27
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cparmerlee
Kev999
...
...There should be no advantage or disadvantage to working in one or the other...
But there are advantages and disadvantages for each of them. That's why we should all be using both. As I pointed out earlier, PRV is better for detailed editing and workng on one instrument at a time while SV is better for showing you a broad perspective on the arrangement or for working on the interplay between different instruments.
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/29 02:46:43
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☄ Helpfulby Kamikaze 2017/06/29 09:47:58
I would like Staff View to be improved. :)
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Brett
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/29 06:49:36
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Tim Flannagin
Sylvan
Cakewalk has plenty of pride in their craftsmanship. I don't agree with your feelings on that. In my opinion, SONAR excels as an audio and MIDI editor; a DAW which is what SONAR is. I realize that SONAR may not have some notation features that some other DAWS may have, but there are 3rd party products or there that specialize in that area. I know, SONAR can't be everything for everyone and it can't make everyone happy all the time. But all in all, it's quite a package with exceptional value. Maybe they will get around to notation later on. I hope they do for people like you. But for now, I am happy they are concentrating on the core of being a audio and MIDI recorder/editor/mixer.
+1 brother. My Mixer board, nor 8-Track would [not?] do notation either. I think that it's a specialty function better left to specialty packages.
Did your mixer board and 8 track have two dozen midi controlled instruments built into it?
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lfm
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/29 11:29:18
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Just to forward main use for me - register songs - you need to send something like melody, lyrics and chords as a minimum. I also used to make print for a hired vocalist to prepare herself. And thinking anybody preparing for rehearsals with a band would be more efficient with notation of new songs. So very convenient with integrated notation. As long as I did 4/4 signature I thought Sonar was ok at least, but later started doing other triplet based signatures I ran into trouble. So most serious flaw now in Sonar is lack of any tuplet handlings and pauses. Don't know if anything done as of two last years on that. A range of external notations stuff: http://www.toptenreviews.com/software/home/best-music-notation-software/ I tested 6 of those, that had some minimum reguirements. Some did not have asio support, which only on one computer I have. Others gave features for a more expensive version than the one in the charts, so you would end up paying over $200 for it actually. So lookout and test properly. Built in notation in Reaper and Cubase Pro are more complete on essentials for me at least. And not needing advanced at all, really, with all fancy stuff that real notation for conductors or something needs. Bows and slurs and whatnot is not in my skillset. But come on - 8th note triplets and you can't use Sonar staff view.....
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/29 16:59:30
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Nate Silver of 538 has estimated the odds of Cakewalk improving staff view at 35%. Keep in mind that he also predicted Hilary Clinton and John Ossoff would win, so the actual odds are probably lower.
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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BobF
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/29 17:20:33
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michael diemer
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/29 18:52:30
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Notion is definitely worth a try, Bob. It's what I use and I have made very nice detailed scores of full orchestra works. Using Sonar for sound and notion for scores works great. Still, one software that does both equally well would be nice. Don't think we have that https://app.box.com/s/w46...mtrfthlrbw4138ytfalj9a
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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Re: No notation fixes!
2017/06/29 20:38:05
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BobF
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A range of external notations stuff:
http://www.toptenreviews.com/software/home/best-music-notation-software/
This doesn't help with SONAR integration, but have you tried Notion? Lead sheets are super quick with Notion. It is rumored to be capable of doing quite detailed scores, but I personally have no idea.
Might be worth a try.
Thanks, heard good things about it. But in the high range for just notation part. What I did was - having an old Cubase Elements and a campaign on 30% upgrade to Pro - I went for it. Cubase Pro has quite decent notation and this cost me just $100 more than Notion or other that fit with features. Original idea was to record+mix in Sonar, and do notation in Cubase Pro. But swapped all the way. And recently Steinberg sort of implying soon to drop Windows 7 when releasing Halion 6 - I asked if they could assure me supporting Windows 7 until MS drop it - but they could not comment on that. So need a backup. So again - I went for Reaper 5.4 now trialing. So will see if notation is ok in Reaper or I will move with music xml to Cubase. Reaper now officially supported by Waves makes it a good candidate - and Tune plugin as well which is my favorite pitch corrector. But keep an eye on Sonar always, I like it a lot. Just not enough headroom for things I eventually will/might need and Cake is not interested in features requested at all. Notation being one part. VCAs another. Arranger track yet another top voted(at least two years ago). Maybe the ripple editing now in Sonar is as good as Reaper regions(which is all transparent and fix/move tempo track as well). I like the Arranger track in Cubase and regions in Reaper is really good enough for the job(make a playlist of regions or just move a region as you please, done in two secs).
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