ORIGINAL: gary_huff

I'm not a purist... but music is part of my being not what I do.
I've made millions $$$ performing for sold out arenas in my hayday... actually I just sold out two 20K arenas last year!
now i keep a good day job and continue to write and perform...
For me the key thing to remember is that life is about balance, ying to the yang... if you don't have it you tip and fall...
A wise person once told me many years ago... "As long and you enjoy the road getting to where you want to be... it doesn't matter if you get there"
My advice to you is don't use music as an excuse not to "keep it real"... you can work and still follow your music it dream.
Peace, :)
Gary

Don't let this give you a false sense of optimism. He gives you sound advice, but he's throwing false numbers at you. The key word is "Heyday". No one makes this kind of money anymore from performance and record royalties. The only artist doing million dollar shows anymore are all long standing reputable musicians whose popularity extend beyond our own generation. Streisand, Madonna, The Police, etc... can still do it.

As for you? Never. The largest grossing U.S. festival is currently Ozzfest. Bands on this tour can expect to PAY around $100-200,000 to play it. The industry has changed a great deal.

At 25, with a high school education, good parental support, and a burning desire to do music for a living, you should probably quit your job. Go to university (a proper accredited one--not one that advertises at 2am) for a music (or related) degree to a) improve your musicianship, b) network with other musicians, and c) have a backup plan that's not going to stop you from being musical. Don't go into a lot (if any) debt to do this, work part time if you need to, keep that albatross away if possible, it will interfere with being able to play music.

And adjust your expectations. As you know, few folks get rich off this, and as mentioned above, the sidemen last longer than the stars, usually. A friend of a friend was a touring bassist in a well known southern rock band. Hired gun, not a band member. He made around $40k us a year for touring, while the band only made around half that, as their tour was selling poorly.

Also investigate avenues for musical income other than RockStarDom. The video game embedding mentioned above is good, jingles, ringtones, discover the 'other' that will keep you fed.

But yea, you're 25, and have manageable debt...go for it, unrealized dreams are a b!tch, but unfollowed dreams are much worse.

i skimmed this thread so hopefully won't repeat anything...

i'll just go out on a limb and say i haven't bought any CDs from part-time musicians. that's not to say i don't enjoy the stuff on the songs forum or that there isn't talent there, but there is a marked difference between soundclick and my mp3 collection.

that said, my advice? if you are single, give it a shot. you may not make the billboard top 20 but maybe you'll find with some real practice and some live gigging that you've found what you've wanted to be all your life. if you aren't happy with where you end up, then chances are you can find a boring job and make a hobby out of music.

if you have to support a family though, you owe to them not to risk their futures. put your stuff out there and if something happens, it happens. if not, you still made music.

personally, there are three things that i absolutely love: my wife, information security, and music, the last two switching back and forth depending on whether i'm at work or at home. information security will support my wife, but music probably won't. maybe if i did nothing else, i might make enough to get by, i might get "discovered" without being fleeced by the record label or i might find out the hard way that i suck and no one wants to listen to it. fortunately, i love my job and most days i look forward to it, so either way i'm pretty much happy.

i don't believe that life is what you make it, but i do believe that there is always room for one more talented person to rise to the top. that person could be you, and you'll never know if you don't try.

ORIGINAL: ArrowHead

I was lucky enough to have spent a few years singing in an awesome metal band. We got a record deal with Unique Leader, who is one of the most significant labels for the style we played. I got to see my album online, in stores, and most importantly, in peoples HANDS. It was pretty fulfilling.

I also got to meet and play with a lot of other bands, who had also signed record deals. Some with bigger labels, some smaller. Some had endorsements, vans, busses, etc... No matter though, they all got what they had the same way: Touring. And the reality is that even the best bands, and the really successful ones, didn't make much money. And it's NOT as glorious as one may think. Hotel rooms and limos went out in the 80's. Nowadays, you're far more likely to be spooning with the bassist in the back of a van while the drummer is driving to the next gig.

I'm not arguing for or against music as a profession. It has wonderful rewards, and it has it's shortfalls. However, I'll be brutally honest with you: To become and stay successful as a recording artist can and most likely will require lots of touring. And even then, success is not guaranteed. In addition, you're not going to make a lot of money. I'm not going to drop names, since finances are private matters, but I'll give you a good example: From near where I am, there is a very successful band. They get regular MTV play, have an awesome recording contract with a major label that is one of the biggest and most long standing in the industry, and do massive tours and festivals all year long. I had always assumed that these guys were making HUGE money. Once, when setting up a bill, I found out that it cost upward of $10,000 to play a single show. Figure that multiplied by 5-6 shows a night, 8 or 9 months at a time, and I just assumed these guys were all loaded. Turns out, in fact, that when touring each band member gets around 20-30 dollars a day to live off of. That's it. Any other money that make is off merch sales, and that goes into a band-fund. In other words, it's less than they'd be making working at McDonalds. In ADDITION, when they are off-tour, the label pays them around $800 a week each to live off of. This is again the equivalent of working at McDonald's, only as a manager this time.

It's not glorious, and it's not the most intelligent way to earn a living, but it has immense rewards especially if you're doing it because you love to play. If you are simply entertaining the idea of lottery winning style pay and rock stardom, though, I'd drop the idea pretty quickly.

Sounds like that "famous" band was in such a rush for fame that they were signing papers before even reading them. My best friend tours around the US, has a small label, and alone makes upwards of $100,000 a year. I did a 5 state tour for 4 years about 6-7 years ago, and loved being on the road, made many of friends and made damn good money, even after spending a lot on food and alcohol. I'll never regret it, and could have made a damn good living too. Sure it costs a lot of money to make a album with a major label, and to tour, but if your making chump change, than you'd better get away from that label ASAP, and hopefully you didn't sign for more that 2 albums. Totally pessimistic and pathetic.

ORIGINAL: APC3


Sounds like that "famous" band was in such a rush for fame that they were signing papers before even reading them. My best friend tours around the US, has a small label, and alone makes upwards of $100,000 a year. I did a 5 state tour for 4 years about 6-7 years ago, and loved being on the road, made many of friends and made damn good money, even after spending a lot on food and alcohol. I'll never regret it, and could have made a damn good living too. Sure it costs a lot of money to make a album with a major label, and to tour, but if your making chump change, than you'd better get away from that label ASAP, and hopefully you didn't sign for more that 2 albums. Totally pessimistic and pathetic.

Soooooo, you totally missed the part where I said death metal, right? There's more money to be made in other genres for sure, but the numbers I state are pretty accurate across the board for most METAL bands. And the particular band I mention has toured with Ozzfest multiple times, and headlined their own sold out tours as well. As for rushing for fame, they have one of the more solid agreements with one of the top 6 major labels, and all have enough past label and band experience to know what they're getting into.

As for your own statements, What you did 7 years ago is supposed to reflect on NOW in what way? As for your friend who tours regularly making over 100,000 a year, would you care to divulge a few details on how he's doing it? Considering recoupable expenditures it's not likely the shows pay that well for him, so he's either got a killer merch business, or perhaps he has his fingers into other aspects of the business you fail to mention. Or are you just foolishly lumping label advances in as income?

I am not trying to be pessemistic, and most certainly am NOT pathetic. I gave real first person examples of the CURRENT state of the music industry. I also stated numerous times that I loved every minute of what I did, and am currently ramping up the next project to go do more of the same. That said, I'm not going to allow someone to make a life altering decision of this sort without taking the time to let them know the likelyhood and reality of becoming a self-sufficient and successful musician.

Of course, you could easily have done the same without having to quote and attack my own statements. I guess you were giving another example of one of the downsides to professional music: Musicians are some damned immature people.

Good day, sir.

Some of you guys aren't too hip on the paychecks for full timers out there. I do know people who aren't at the top of the charts that are still making real good money from tours and selling CD's at their shows. Of course they're very good at what they do. They just aren't mass marketed. Here in St. Louis, you have jazz cats like the Kennedy brothers who have toured with lots of top acts, but jazz just don't sell out big shows, so they make most of their money teaching or playing more steady home gigs. Like my old friend Russ who's been the house organist/pianist for the Fox Theater for many years. It's a good steady gig. A lot of us used to go down to Branson and play (ugh) country music during the winter months. Then you have some bigger acts. Erin Bode is getting into bigger and bigger things all the time although I'm sure most of the general public doesn't know who she is. But she's is making a decent living singing jazz. Jeff Tweedy and the rest of the gang from Uncle Tupelo/Wilco make much bigger money than you may think. Jeff's from my home town and I can assure you he's a fairly wealthy guy who worked hard and saved his money. You can bet he still sets up and tears down his own equipment and tries to do as much of his own booking as possible. Cutting corners is a must in this biz.

The big difference is what's gonna lay ahead for these people. Tweedy is in a fad called alternative rock. That fad ain't gonna last forever and when it's done--he's done. Erin sings mostly jazz standards. She'll probably never get rich doing that, but she's very good at it and there will always be a place for her and others like her singing standards. The Kennedy's are both top-notch musicians. They can always make a living playing backup for other jazz kings, or teaching, or playing sessions because they both read really well and can play any style of music. Guys like that can always hussle a buck. I've yet to hear a great alternative rock musician. Nobody is gonna hire Tweedy to play guitar at a studio session behind Tony Bennett, or to teach at a conservatory. He got lucky though and made some big money quick. He'll have to save it though cause it ain't gonna last, and he knows it.

I think that what you have to ask yourself is, are you playing some kind of fad music, hip-hop, alternative rock, speed metal, yodeling lesbians; or are you truly a great musician who can play anything, read well, write well, sing great etc. If you're the latter there's always gonna be room for you in this business. If the former, you'll have to get lucky.

ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo

Some of you guys aren't too hip on the paychecks for full timers out there. I do know people who aren't at the top of the charts that are still making real good money from tours and selling CD's at their shows. Of course they're very good at what they do. They just aren't mass marketed. Here in St. Louis, you have jazz cats like the Kennedy brothers who have toured with lots of top acts, but jazz just don't sell out big shows, so they make most of their money teaching or playing more steady home gigs. Like my old friend Russ who's been the house organist/pianist for the Fox Theater for many years. It's a good steady gig. A lot of us used to go down to Branson and play (ugh) country music during the winter months. Then you have some bigger acts. Erin Bode is getting into bigger and bigger things all the time although I'm sure most of the general public doesn't know who she is. But she's is making a decent living singing jazz. Jeff Tweedy and the rest of the gang from Uncle Tupelo/Wilco make much bigger money than you may think. Jeff's from my home town and I can assure you he's a fairly wealthy guy who worked hard and saved his money. You can bet he still sets up and tears down his own equipment and tries to do as much of his own booking as possible. Cutting corners is a must in this biz.

The big difference is what's gonna lay ahead for these people. Tweedy is in a fad called alternative rock. That fad ain't gonna last forever and when it's done--he's done. Erin sings mostly jazz standards. She'll probably never get rich doing that, but she's very good at it and there will always be a place for her and others like her singing standards. The Kennedy's are both top-notch musicians. They can always make a living playing backup for other jazz kings, or teaching, or playing sessions because they both read really well and can play any style of music. Guys like that can always hussle a buck. I've yet to hear a great alternative rock musician. Nobody is gonna hire Tweedy to play guitar at a studio session behind Tony Bennett, or to teach at a conservatory. He got lucky though and made some big money quick. He'll have to save it though cause it ain't gonna last, and he knows it.

I think that what you have to ask yourself is, are you playing some kind of fad music, hip-hop, alternative rock, speed metal, yodeling lesbians; or are you truly a great musician who can play anything, read well, write well, sing great etc. If you're the latter there's always gonna be room for you in this business. If the former, you'll have to get lucky.

I don't think any certain genera has as much to do with musicianship as your stating. In my mind(apparently my opinion), there are only a few real reasons of playing music in the first place.

1. You want to be a ROCK STAR....this to me is the silliest, although this is almost where it starts, playing air guitar, daydreaming about the money, the girls, and being on stage in front of thousands of people, glued to your every move. Who wouldn't want that, right?

2. it's a hobby, you just picked up a guitar or whatever for fun, and that's what it still is, just fun

3. You use music as an expression, for a statement, or try to develop a way of communicating and letting those demons out.....This is where I have to disagree that Alternative/hip-hop/yodeling lesbians, etc...are not great musicians. Alternatives is such a vague category. Don't be fooled by thinking that just because a player isn't Frank Gambling/Yawnie Malmsteen'ing(sp) all over the place, that they're not educated or fluent in their craft. Some people, believe it or not, play to create and not to copy what has been done over and over, and this gets classified as Alternative or whatever. Having said that, at the same time blues/jazz/rock players do the same, it's when we start thinking that my type of music is more educated and more complex that we lose that openness that music is really all about. For example, I really can't stand country music, but I listen to it every so often, and can respect a lot of it, whether I like it or not, I would never consider them any less of musicians.

Look at Josh Freeze, he's a session whore, yet played in A Perfect Circle. And there are so many more. I guess my question is, What exactly do you consider a great musician?

I guess you could say I play alternative music, if that's how you want to label it, I'm just trying to write music that fits my situation, mood, or tells my story or point of view, not trying to follow any given formula. I am very educated in music/ theory etc... but when it comes down to writing music 90% of that goes out the door, and that's when I really start connecting personally with my music and the rules are no more.

to say that Alternative/hip-hop/speed metal/yodeling lesbians/ambient/or what have you, musicians can't play anything, read well, write well, sing well, etc........here we go....ignorance. How could you possibly know that. That's so judgmental. Maybe you feel everyone should burst into flying arpeggios and two handed tapping every other measure, I'm not sure. Apparently we have completely opposite views on musicianship. Yes, I believe education is always at the forefront to understanding, and is and always will be the key to being a great musician, but at some point in time when you have to sit back and remember that it's music. Books, theories, techniques, formulas, specific scales, and learning from the great musicians before us is a must, but who wrote their books, a lot of them wrote their own. Music should really be an extension of your personality, and that's probably why there are so many types out there nowadays. No I can't relate to all of it, but I can learn from it, whether I understand it or not.

I agree that Unfortunately chances are if your in it for the money, and your writing music that is different or new, that chances are a lot less likely, but if your just going after the gold, doesn't that just make it another job. It should be a passion.

I find that the musicians with the least knowledge are the ones that forget, or never got that it's not about show-boating, music is an art of expression. Maybe this idea is lost, and all we'll ever hear anymore are commercially produced bands.

I think that what you have to ask yourself is, are you playing some kind of fad music, hip-hop, alternative rock, speed metal, yodeling lesbians;

Hey, yodeling lesbian speed metal is a hot genre right now. You are obviously behind the times. I mean just check out the amount of activity on yodelinglesbianspeedmetal.com and you can see that this is a segment that's taking off. I mean you've got speed metal, and you've got hot lesbian babes in cod pieces. What's not to like?

ORIGINAL: jamesg1213

Interesting thread, and a lively discussion.....but where's the OP??

I imagine this thread started it's life on the Sonar forum. Since they no longer leave a link to the new location, in the place where it used to reside, i imagine the original poster assume's their thread was killed.

Why does stuff like this belong on the song forum and not the Sonar forum?
Sonar's a music program right?

yodelinglesbianspeedmetal.com

Ah, right up there with alternativecrock.crap. But hey, we all gotta start somewhere. Maybe they'll improve!

Alternative rock came about as college radio playing stuff by young underveloped kids. Nothing wrong with that, kids need an outlet too. But to say that alternative crock has anything in common with real music that has to be studied, practiced, and theorized at a high level is simply silly. I've have yet to hear an alternative crocker play anything that any second year guitarist couldn't do.

BTW, if someone wants to play alternative rock, disco, etc, that's certainly their right. However, don't expect to get many calls if yu want to do any studio work. No one will hire you to teach at a conservatory. No one will hire you as the house guitarists at the Fox, or for The Tonight Show band. No one will hire you to play any other form of music because they'll just figure that you aren't able to. Comes with the territory. There's no longevity in playing simple non-provocative music. And you'll never sharpen your skills enough to play anything difficult that a studio may need you to play. They simply won't call you.

I really don't want to step into this discussion regarding whether one genre is "better" (for lack of a better word) than another. I just want to say that I don't believe that the quantity of notes has any correlation with the quality of the music. Slamming one genre for lack of notes, chords or lyric simplicity is just a futile argument that can never be won. People like a genre for the way it touches them on a personal level. Also, I dont buy the argument that the type of music you record as your own, will cost you opportunities at the studio level. Rick Derringer recorded some pretty commercial albums, but still to this day has a busy session schedule playing alot of different styles. There are many others I could list here. What you love, and what you can play have no correlation. Saying that altrock guitarists are very limited due to what they record, is a blanket statement that cannot proven. Maybe your just pokin, for pokin's sake here Joe. I hope so.

Randy

Maybe your just pokin, for pokin's sake here Joe. I hope so.

Well, a little to be sure. But I do believe that there's not gonna be much for work down the road for someone who plays any extremely simple form of music, especially session work. Derringer did some exceptional studio work right from the beginning, so it wasn't just the Real McCoys or whatever. I have a Joe Vitale album from 1974 where I think he actually outplayed both the other session guitarists on it (Phil Keaggy and Joe Walsh). But really, when was the last time you saw an alternative rock guitarist even get asked to play on a session that didn't involve alternative rock music? It practially never happens. I know that if I was aduitioning players for a big theater company, that if someone came in looking for work and told me their background was playing in nothing but alternative rock bands, I probably wouldn't even bother auditioning them. To sum it up, if a person is capable of playing challenging music, they probably wouldn't be playing anything else. We all start out playing some easier blues tunes and folk songs, but once you master the easy stuff it's only natural to go on to bigger and better things. If someone hasn't moved on then I'd say that's a good indication that they are never gonna be much. Look at U2. They had very humble beginnings. They're capable of playing much more complex music now. It's still not jazz or anything, but I certainly wouldn't refer to them as an alternative rock band anymore. It's only natural to move on to better things and they did.