Michael135
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 17:20:41
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Lucky you being a Beta tester!
Can't wait to hear some more stuff of what it can do, other than the lovely flute demo in your sig.
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Karyn
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 17:38:07
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Randy, precise vote counts aren't required. Just a list of the libs used, in order of popularity by the votes with a couple of notes like... "EWQL - Most people voted for this". I understand what you're saying about the different production applied to each submission, but you made the point at the very beginning that official company demos don't always show how the libs sound out in the "real world". So here is an excellent opportunity to use the real world data created by real world people and voted on by real world people (and forum users  ). Which libs did we like most? How did the bargain libs fair against the 'pro' libs?
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 17:44:10
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Michael135
Lucky you being a Beta tester!
Can't wait to hear some more stuff of what it can do, other than the lovely flute demo in your sig.
Did you hear this piece I did with a Beta version of World, Michael? It's my version of the Irish folk song "A rovin" which I produced for St Patty's Day this year:
"A rovin" The majority of the instruments used are from World. Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 17:49:28
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Karyn
Randy, precise vote counts aren't required. Just a list of the libs used, in order of popularity by the votes with a couple of notes like... "EWQL - Most people voted for this".
I understand what you're saying about the different production applied to each submission, but you made the point at the very beginning that official company demos don't always show how the libs sound out in the "real world". So here is an excellent opportunity to use the real world data created by real world people and voted on by real world people (and forum users ).
Which libs did we like most? How did the bargain libs fair against the 'pro' libs?
Hi, Karyn - I hope we hear from Bitflipper on this. He's the man who received and counted the votes. Let's see if he'd like to post what you're asking for. You know from my earlier posts that I don't think it'll be very informative. In won't answer your question posted here, "Which libs did we like most?" - It will only answer "What libs were used by the producers whose worked we enjoyed the most." I think it's possible that there are some libraries and synths represented in that group of 72 MP3s which would have gotten more votes if they'd been used in other hands - low votes for those entries has nothing to do with the quality of the libs themselves. Bitflipper? Check in on this please. Randy B.
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stevec
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 18:07:04
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"A rovin" Wow, that was pretty cool. Sounds like the World Instruments library has some good stuff!
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Michael135
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 18:12:33
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rbowser
Michael135
Lucky you being a Beta tester!
Can't wait to hear some more stuff of what it can do, other than the lovely flute demo in your sig.
Did you hear this piece I did with a Beta version of World, Michael? It's my version of the Irish folk song "A rovin" which I produced for St Patty's Day this year:
"A rovin"
The majority of the instruments used are from World.
Randy B.
No, I haven't heard that one. I didn't care for the bagpipe overly much (if that was what it was), but the rest of it sounded AMAZING! I'm under the impression that a bagpipe is somewhat difficult to sample/replicate on a computer.
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bitflipper
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 18:17:41
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Karyn, I will give you a list of the most popular libraries, but I don't think it will bear much statistical relevance. The sample set (in the statistical meaning) is just too small. For example, if I told you that 50% of the total votes went to entries that used EWQL, what could you really deduce from that? That everybody loved EWQL? Or that more submitters just happen to own that library than any other? How about if I told you that some of the EWQL entries received fewer votes than the TTS-1 entries? How do you reconcile that with the fact that most of the winners used EWQL? These are questions that cannot be answered by the breakdown you suggest. I will, however, compile such a breakdown for you - you'll have to give me a while since those numbers are not in my spreadsheet - but please keep this caveat in mind!
post edited by bitflipper - 2010/09/07 18:18:51
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 18:26:44
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Thanks, Steve, thanks for letting me know you enjoyed that. - IMPORTANT CAVEAT - the "fiddle" in that recording of "A rovin'" is The Garritan Stradivari, which is unfortunately no longer available.
Michael - hehe, I had a feeling I could count on you for not liking something. But that's not a bagpipe, it's the Uilleann Pipes which sounds quite different. It's not blown, but powered by a bellows that goes under the player's arm. The instrument has a quieter, more delicate tone. It's the element I paid particular attention to, using recordings of the pipes as a sonic guide. I'm happy to say what I have sounds extremely like the real article, thanks in large to a set of excellent samples. Examples can be found at You Tube.
World has a ton of instruments from all over the world, and will emerge as one of the broadest based and most affordable World libraries available.
Randy B.
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Karyn
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 18:35:36
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Dave, I realise it's a small sample and that the skills of the producers are a big factor.
Most of the winners used some form of EW libs, so was it the best producers all choose EW or did us voters like the sound that the EW libs can produce?
Several people produced multiple entries using different libs, yet none of the winners got more than one prize. If it was simply down to the skills of the producer then one person with 4 entries could have taken home 4 prizes, but that didn't happen...
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 18:40:19
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lol--well, I'm glad Bitflipper weighed in on your question Karyn, and his caveat was very well stated. I can see you refuse to believe what we're telling you, but I guarantee the chart you'll see is not going to be helpful in the way you want to believe it will be. But of course everyone is free to believe what they want to, even when what they believe is contrary to logic!
Randy B.
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stevec
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 18:42:28
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the "fiddle" in that recording of "A rovin'" is The Garritan Stradivari, which is unfortunately no longer available. Ah... bummer. That was one of my favorite instruments in the piece! It's a shame that one just disappeared. There don't seem to be many solo violin libraries around.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 18:53:28
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stevec
the "fiddle" in that recording of "A rovin'" is The Garritan Stradivari, which is unfortunately no longer available.
Ah... bummer. That was one of my favorite instruments in the piece! It's a shame that one just disappeared. There don't seem to be many solo violin libraries around.
Yes, it's an excellent instrument, that Garritan Strad - That's one reason I gave it to the spotlight in this recording. Most of the other instruments are backdrop to it, playing rhythm. But you do get a good hit of the (authentic sounding) Uilleann Pipes, and a Shepherd's Flute. That Strad, however, cost as much for that single instrument- actually more, than the entire World, or GPO, or any of the Garritan Libraries. It's a high mark in the history of sampled instruments, one of the best ever made. Some kind of disagreement between the creators apparently caused it to have such a short shelf life. Same thing happened with the Gofriller Cello, which is actually easier to work with, and is equally as good. The size of that library is also equal to the size of the other multi-instrument libraries. Just trying to stress that such a complex, large sample set couldn't possibly be squeezed into something like World. Randy B.
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Michael135
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 19:12:38
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rbowser
Thanks, Steve, thanks for letting me know you enjoyed that. - IMPORTANT CAVEAT - the "fiddle" in that recording of "A rovin'" is The Garritan Stradivari, which is unfortunately no longer available.
Michael - hehe, I had a feeling I could count on you for not liking something. But that's not a bagpipe, it's the Uilleann Pipes which sounds quite different. It's not blown, but powered by a bellows that goes under the player's arm. The instrument has a quieter, more delicate tone. It's the element I paid particular attention to, using recordings of the pipes as a sonic guide. I'm happy to say what I have sounds extremely like the real article, thanks in large to a set of excellent samples. Examples can be found at You Tube.
World has a ton of instruments from all over the world, and will emerge as one of the broadest based and most affordable World libraries available.
Randy B.
Oh, so that's what they were. I've never heard of Uilleann Pipes before, so I just assumed that they were weird sounding bagpipes. I looked them up, and they sound much closer to what you had in the video. If all the instruments in this library are that good sounding, then I think I'm going to be using it a lot.
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bitflipper
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 19:47:42
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Karyn, here is a compilation from the biggest vote-getters, representing the vote distribution among the top 50 entries. For example: out of the top 50 entries, 28% of them used GPO and represented 20% of the total votes. An average of 3.8 votes were cast for each of those 50 entries.
Remember my previous caveat: there is little statistical significance in these numbers.
GPO
* 28% of the entries used GPO
* 20% of the total votes went to entries that used GPO
* Ave. votes per entry: 3.8
EWQL
* 28% of the entries used EWQL
* 52% of the total votes went to entries that used EWQL
* Ave. votes per entry: 9.9
TTS-1
* 26% of the entries used TTS-1
* 19.7% of the votes went to entries that used TTS-1
* Ave. votes per entry: 4.1
Dim Pro
* 15% of the entries used DP
* 10.1% of the votes went to entries that used DP
* Ave. votes per entry: 3.6
Kontakt standard libraries
* 13% of the entries used Kontakt standard libs
* 5.6% of the votes went to entries that used Kontak standard libs
* Ave. votes per entry: 5.6
Project SAM
* 4% of the entries used Project SAM
* 0.8% of the votes went to entries that used Project SAM
* Ave. votes per entry: 1
Vienna Symphonic
* 4% of the entries used VSL
* 0.8% of the votes went to entries that used VSL
* Ave. votes per entry: 1
Hollywood Strings
* 4% of the entries used Hollywood Strings
* 7.3% of the votes went to entries that used Hollywood Strings
* Ave. votes per entry: 9
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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chckn8r1
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 20:03:15
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rbowser
It's really not that big of a deal, Dave, but thanks for checking. This is still confusing though - You opened the file directly, or did you import it? We're trying to understand better how things work in Logic. Is there actually a way to open a MIDI file in Logic without the program ignoring the file's programmed tempo?
And - um--I think the new version you posted is still the fast tempo - I don't think that's 112 bpm.-- 
Randy B.
Well, dang it! I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out why the tempo wouldn't change - troubleshooting things, checking to see that Logic wasn't trying to synch with something else, tempo automation wasn't engaged, etc... then I realized that the tracks were not "un-frozen" (i.e. turned back into MIDI events from audio bounces). [duh]. I tried unfreezing, adjusting tempo, and then re-freezing, but Logic crashed (yes, do not believe anyone who says that Macs and their apps do not crash ... they're lying) on me and since the project takes a freakin' long time to open, so appologies ... when I get some twiddlin' thumb time, I'll see what I can do.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 20:21:16
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Michael135
rbowser
Thanks, Steve, thanks for letting me know you enjoyed that. - IMPORTANT CAVEAT - the "fiddle" in that recording of "A rovin'" is The Garritan Stradivari, which is unfortunately no longer available.
Michael - hehe, I had a feeling I could count on you for not liking something. But that's not a bagpipe, it's the Uilleann Pipes which sounds quite different. It's not blown, but powered by a bellows that goes under the player's arm. The instrument has a quieter, more delicate tone. It's the element I paid particular attention to, using recordings of the pipes as a sonic guide. I'm happy to say what I have sounds extremely like the real article, thanks in large to a set of excellent samples. Examples can be found at You Tube.
World has a ton of instruments from all over the world, and will emerge as one of the broadest based and most affordable World libraries available.
Randy B.
Oh, so that's what they were. I've never heard of Uilleann Pipes before, so I just assumed that they were weird sounding bagpipes. I looked them up, and they sound much closer to what you had in the video. If all the instruments in this library are that good sounding, then I think I'm going to be using it a lot.
That's great you looked up the Uilleann Pipes, Michael - pronounced 'Illen"--Irish Pipes. World has the Scottish Bagpipes too, with that characteristic "duck being strangled" sound - hehe. Be prepared to keep a tab open on Wiki or Google when you start exploring the World Library. I hadn't heard of most of the instruments in it--Great fun to look them up, find examples, and then try to use them. Here's a random sampling of instruments you'll find - Mijwiz, Quena, Nagara, Saranji--What the...?! Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 20:23:17
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bitflipper
Karyn, here is a compilation from the biggest vote-getters, representing the vote distribution among the top 50 entries. For example: out of the top 50 entries, 28% of them used GPO and represented 20% of the total votes. An average of 3.8 votes were cast for each of those 50 entries.
Remember my previous caveat: there is little statistical significance in these numbers.
Really nice of you to put that together, Bit - Thanks. Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 20:31:03
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chckn8r1
Well, dang it! I was pulling my hair out trying to figure out why the tempo wouldn't change - troubleshooting things, checking to see that Logic wasn't trying to synch with something else, tempo automation wasn't engaged, etc... then I realized that the tracks were not "un-frozen" (i.e. turned back into MIDI events from audio bounces). [duh]...
Hahahaha, quite a hassle, Dave. I don't think it's important for us to hear your entry at 112 bpm, I'd let that go, really. Quite a few other entries weren't at 112 bpm either, for a variety of reasons. I think we've moved on. It would be instructional though to understand how MIDI files work with Logic - Did you import or open the file? I think you said earlier that you opened it - but we're still not clear if that means Logic really can't read tempo info. It seems like it can't--? Thanks for trying though! Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 20:54:30
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chckn8r1
I'm of the same school of thought as Michael on this one. The orchestra as a "band" has evolved over the last few centuries to fit together and blend. EQ'ing individual instruments is kind of irrelevant ... if you're going for the "real" orchestra sound...
This discussion on using orchestral samples, and the topic of EQ reminds me of similar discussions I've taken part in at the Garritan Forum. Earlier this year, a very strongly opinionated individual said that using any EQ in a digital orchestra project was tantamount to "mutilating" the sound. To me, it makes theoretical sense that virtual orchestral instruments shouldn't need to have their EQ adjusted in a project, and for reasons like those well expressed by Dave Chick. We're talking about a sophisticated group of instruments which have evolved over time, and the classical orchestra grouping of those instruments has also evolved and at this point certainly stands the test of time - The orchestra is one of the great achievements in art. But in my opinion, the theory of not using EQ on the virtual versions of those instruments falls apart once we come up against the reality of making recordings. It isn't accurate at all to say there's no difference between the live sound of an orchestra and the captured recording of one. There are all sorts of limitations in both the recording process and certainly in the playback mechanism which makes even the best, most sophisticated recording only an approximation of what happens in a live performance situation. Recordings always have to be carefully balanced, EQd and mixed in order to make for the most pleasant recordings. When we're working with recorded samples, were even more removed from an actual performance situation, so we have more obstacles to achieving a good recording than the engineer who is recording an actual orchestra. As I said before, each musical piece will have its unique mixing and EQ needs. Settings that may work great for one project won't work for another, because of the different blend of frequencies emphasized in a given piece, and by the predominant instrumentation. I think all recordings need quite a bit of bass roll off to avoid being too thick and muddy. And I think it's an extremely rare mix that doesn't need some brightening up in the high end. The orchestra is one thing - our simulated recordings based on samples and synths are another thing - and the latter need all the help they can get to end up as pleasing recordings--and that's regardless of how well the samples themselves were recorded in the first place. Randy B.
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noldar12
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 21:53:08
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[<font]Wow! Go away from the thread for a day...
Matt, wanted to comment on your wish for orchestral instruments with pre-eq.
In theory that sounds like a great idea, load up your orchestral template, and not have to worry about eq, or many other problems.
But, the problem comes when one considers how for, example, the bassoon with "pre-eq" would be used. The bassoon with a great "pre-eq" for use in a standard orchestral bassoon section, would make a very poor choice for the sound of a solo bassoon playing a bassoon concerto.
As a RL example, thinking of the double-bass (such a surprise, that I would choose that <smile>), the orchestral bass uses standard orchestral strings that give a powerful bowed tone. A jazz bassist uses strings that are designed to bring out pizz. playing, and the best pizz. strings generally sound lousy when bowed (the bass itself is also adjusted much differently). A classical solo bassist, OTOH, most often uses thinner, more responsive solo strings, pitched a step higher than regular orchestral tuning, and produces a tone that is more "celloish" (if that is a word), with richer, higher overtones. If the bass sample had a single set pre-eq, the potential needed variations would be far more difficult to create.
Yet, VSL is starting to provide some of what you are seeking both in the Vienna Suite, and in MIR. Both programs come with several "pre eq" choices for each instrument. The key is that they provide several, not just one, and still give the user the flexibility to create his/her own.
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John6528
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 22:19:47
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If you use eq on the samples it is an admission the sample doesn't work... imho, which is probably correct for all samples at least some of the time.
If orchestral samples worked perfectly there would be no need for fidlin' around. Orchestral instruments are designed to work together.
Haven't been around here much since the contest... busy busy. My use of Miroslav is to preview compositions.. or hear them at all. With my Miroslav I am getting about a 5 out of ten representation so far. Just started though and getting better at it. The problem is... spend so much time learning and fiddling around there is no more composing and arranging. It's frustrating.
John
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Matt
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 22:37:54
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noldar12
[<font]Wow! Go away from the thread for a day...
Matt, wanted to comment on your wish for orchestral instruments with pre-eq.
In theory that sounds like a great idea, load up your orchestral template, and not have to worry about eq, or many other problems.
But, the problem comes when one considers how for, example, the bassoon with "pre-eq" would be used. The bassoon with a great "pre-eq" for use in a standard orchestral bassoon section, would make a very poor choice for the sound of a solo bassoon playing a bassoon concerto.
As a RL example, thinking of the double-bass (such a surprise, that I would choose that <smile>), the orchestral bass uses standard orchestral strings that give a powerful bowed tone. A jazz bassist uses strings that are designed to bring out pizz. playing, and the best pizz. strings generally sound lousy when bowed (the bass itself is also adjusted much differently). A classical solo bassist, OTOH, most often uses thinner, more responsive solo strings, pitched a step higher than regular orchestral tuning, and produces a tone that is more "celloish" (if that is a word), with richer, higher overtones. If the bass sample had a single set pre-eq, the potential needed variations would be far more difficult to create.
Yet, VSL is starting to provide some of what you are seeking both in the Vienna Suite, and in MIR. Both programs come with several "pre eq" choices for each instrument. The key is that they provide several, not just one, and still give the user the flexibility to create his/her own.
The EQ that I was referring to would be solely for a standard orchestra, used as a standard orchestra. If a bassoon had a solo within the orchestra, I don't see why you would EQ it any different, it's not like the bassoonist is going to EQ the bassoon when they are playing a solo passage. For your example of the upright bass, that is why they have jazz bass samples and classical bass samples, and I would never think to use one for the other. I would think that both samples would come fine-tuned for their purpose.
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Matt
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 23:09:17
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EDIT: in reality, I can see a lot of reasons why you would EQ a solo bassoon passage differently than a bassoon you were trying to blend into an orchestra. But in theory, I don't see a reason to. Not sure that makes any sense.
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jsaras
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 23:20:55
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I looked at the entry notes and it seems that there wasn't a real Vienna Symphonic Library entry (not the Kontakt version). It's too bad that a major library wasn't represented.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 23:45:28
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It's interesting - I couldn't have predicted that on a Forum about recording that the use of EQ would be so controversial. I really thought that EQ was considered a basic bread and butter part of mixing any kind of music. Well, I enjoy surprises - so this is interesting that what I considered to be some commonly accepted basics about recording, are Not so commonly accepted!
"...If you use eq on the samples it is an admission the sample doesn't work..."
I'm not an EQ wizard. I admit that it always presents a challenge to me. But that quote I pulled out seems to me to totally miss the point of what equalization is about. It's as if EQ is only there for correcting a sample or track that needs help - I would say the vast majority of the time, EQ isn't used for that sort of thing at all.
Take a good piano library - maybe Ivory. It sounds great on its own, and the samples have been crafted for generic purposes. All good samples are. They sound fine by themselves if they're well done samples.
But then comes the time to mix them together, and to do so specifically for a given piece of music and the approach that's been decided on for the mix. For one thing, EQ has a role in how far away instruments are perceived to be from the listener. Thinning out the bottom from an instrument helps move it back where you want it, if that's what you need.--as an example of one thing EQ accomplishes.
In pop music there's always the question to resolve with each song, how do the bass guitar and kick drum work together? If the both are just piped out the way they actually sound, you get a thudding mush. One has to be thinned, or one has to be fattened - something has to be done so that they don't create a bassy blur in the mix.
Mixing any kind of music presents analogous challenges. That great sounding piano is going to start competing with other instruments in pieces with a lot of instruments. Its bass frequencies are likely to need some pruning so a mix doesn't end up bottom heavy, when cellos and contra basses are in the piece.
EQ can be automated to great effect, to bring even more life to samples, since acoustic instruments tend to shift in their frequency not due to just pitch, but in how they're being played. If you want a trumpet to scream more, automate its EQ to emphasize a frequency that helps that effect.
It would be impossible to have samples ready to go, no muss no fuss, workable in every situation. That's where crafting a mix comes in. Notation users especially would like to believe they can just pump their data into a library and have good recordings come out - to me that's a fantasy.
Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/07 23:51:55
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jsaras
I looked at the entry notes and it seems that there wasn't a real Vienna Symphonic Library entry (not the Kontakt version). It's too bad that a major library wasn't represented.
Yes, when we started, David and talked about how it was likely that users of a high end program like Vienna would likely be folks not interested in participating in something like this. That prediction proved out. But something we didn't quite expect was how many people would get involved who were pretty much novices at working with MIDI of this sort. I thought that the only people who would be interested would be those who had a lot of experience working with orchestral music, and would only be happy to show off their stuff. Something really nice happened though--With so many relatively inexperienced people getting involved, the Shootout took a turn, and a good one, so it became more of a learning experience for a lot of the people who cooked up versions of Trek. I think that's great. That's one of the best results of this whole experiment. Randy B.
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noldar12
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/08 00:41:02
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Matt, I am guessing I was not clear. To be a bit clearer: the typical "orchestral" library, offers typically one solo bassoon, and perhaps a section of three bassoonists. The problem comes in when the composer needs the solo bassoon to:
1) Lead in an orchestral setting
2) Play as a true soloist
3) Play chamber works, either in a woodwind quintet or mixed septet or octet, etc. Granted, the orchestral bassoon could be fine, but each setting is actually distinct.
4) Note that there are also different types of bassoons with different sounds: French vs. German IIRC.
The reality is that most libraries will not offer four or five different sampled bassoons, each one sampled for a specific use. One answer, if one has deep pockets (far deeper than mine), is to get a wide variety of high-end libraries, and then mix and match as needed for each composition (high profile composers do precisely that). The more common approach is to work with what you have.
Needing flexibility in a sample set for use in a variety of settings is one of the weaknesses of "the out of the box" type sample set. The original EWQLSO Gold is so awash in reverb, that the samples do not work well for smaller chamber ensembles. Adding the close mics gives far more options.
As for the bass, granted, the orchestral vs. upright bass was not a good example. However, the orchestral, vs. solo classical bowed bass still stands. Actually, a true solo classical bowed bass using solo strings at solo tuning has never been sampled (lets be real, there would be almost no demand for such a thing). The only answer (and it is the one at least one high end library offers via eq presets, is to modify the eq of the bass so the sound will reflect more of a true solo playing sound and style.
Granted, for live classical recording, very little, if any eq is used, and in "audiophile" land, any subsequent manipulation of the raw sound in any way is generally frowned upon. Samples, OTOH do not equal live sound.
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Matt
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/08 01:07:20
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RB: I'm not talking about having samples EQ-ed that would be "workable in every situation". I am talking about having samples ready to go, workable in one specific situation, which is an orchestra. I'm not going to try to get Ivory to sit in an orchestral mix, I want a full orchestra (including piano) pre-mixed and pre-EQ-ed and read to go and to do one thing only, which is to be an orchestra.
Jim: I'm adding to my wish list that libraries offer 4-5 sampled bassoons, each one sampled for a specific use, as you said. I want a sample for every possible situation, and I want it to do what it needs to do without any mixing or tweaking on my part. If that what it takes, then have 40 bassoon samples. But I'm not really worried about chamber music and french vs german and flexibility. As I said above, I just want an orchestra that functions as an orchestra and IF my sampled orchestra plays the same orchestration as a live orchestra, I want it to sound similar, without having to roll off the bass frequencies of certain instruments.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/08 10:25:26
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Matt
RB: I'm not talking about having samples EQ-ed that would be "workable in every situation". I am talking about having samples ready to go, workable in one specific situation, which is an orchestra.
OK, Matt - I'm pretty sure we'll all keep working with what we feel works. The most important part of my "EQ raps" has been that what's done with EQ, which IMHO is always necessary for a good recording, is determined on a project-by-project basis, determined by the particular instrumentation of a given piece, and what the plans are for the mix. I'm not talking about one generic situation - "orchestra." One single real-life set up with traditional seating, the as-if-onstage model is not the only way to use orchestral instruments. And different musical pieces add up to different hot spots in the EQ field, different combinations of instruments competing in the same range. EQ can be massaged to make for a more pleasing listening experience, based on the needs of a given piece of music. All said IMHO - "H" standing for humble. Here's a sub-topic. Various versions of EWQLSO were used in Trek entries, and have been talked about throughout these Shootout threads: "...The original EWQLSO Gold is so awash in reverb..." Yes, and that's limiting in the extreme. But do the other versions of EWQL provide more flexibility when it comes to the amount of reverb/ambience recorded with the samples? I've seen mention of at least one version providing a close-miked set of samples. Which EWQL version has the most dry samples available?--dry samples being the ideal kind of raw material I'd prefer to work with? Randy B.
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Shane_B.
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/08 11:17:19
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Matt
I'm adding to my wish list that libraries offer 4-5 sampled bassoons, each one sampled for a specific use, as you said. I want a sample for every possible situation, and I want it to do what it needs to do without any mixing or tweaking on my part. If that what it takes, then have 40 bassoon samples.
That sounds like a lot to ask. There's already an incredible amount of work that goes in to most sample libraries, I couldn't imagine having to custom EQ each sample multiple times. On the subject of EQ'ing ... I thought I would mention a feature of Ozone that I haven't seen in any other EQ I've used, that has vastly improved my mixes and masters. Hold the 'alt' key and it will solo the frequency you are clicking on with your mouse. This would be a nice feature request for Sonar's Sonitus EQ. Shane
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