Twigman
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/04 19:11:37
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yorolpal
My ol pal, Robbie Burns...ain't he somethin?
Well he's a Scot :rolleyes:
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yorolpal
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/04 19:27:50
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Ya cain't pick yor parents, there Twig. But, yeah, there is that;-)
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/04 20:41:49
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bitflipper
I'll be interested to hear any JABB users' experiences and creations, as that one is high on my own wishlist. I love using sax, but it's probably the most difficult sample-based instrument to employ realistically.
Hey, Bit - Here's a thing I did awhile back primarily with JABB. It's my instrumental version of "Honeypie" by The Beatles. JABB instruments used: Jazz Piano Jazz Fretted Bass Jazz Electric Guitar Sopranino Sax Soprano Sax Alto Sax Alto Sax 2 Tenor Sax Baritone Sax I could have used one of the good drum kits in JABB, I used Session Drummer 2. I also could have used a Clarinet in JABB, but for reasons I can't remember I used the Bb and the Eb Clarinet from GPO. Note that the Clarinets are very important in this, mixed higher than the backing Saxes. But you'll get a taste of the JABB Saxes, and the lead after the intro is a Tenor Sax. HONEYPIE Randy B.
post edited by rbowser - 2010/09/04 21:12:24
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/04 20:51:59
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bvideo
Randy and Dave, great job!
And for all the entrants, admiration for the time and effort that you put into it. And of course, to the winners, congratulations. I think the prizes were a great addition to the shootout. If they provided motivation for more entrants and effort, that's a good thing. Not to mention a great compliment to this forum and to Dave and Randy for their effort. The slightly late offer of prizes would only be unfortunate to those who might have thought they did not have a chance to resubmit.
From the outset of the original shootout proposal, it seemed quite clear to me that besides the quality of the synth & sounds, there would be a major impact on quality coming from the skill, effort, and taste of the contestants. Those last three qualities were not strongly highlighted as goals in the shootout, but how could there possibly be a set of rules to eliminate them, and then how would such rules possibly show the ultimate quality of the sounds??? Specifying the rules for editing the midi file required a delicate touch to allow the sounds to be best applied to the composition without allowing modifications to the composition to unfairly influence the voting.
For those cases of multiple submissions, they reflected mainly more examples of effort, skill, and taste, not to mention sound palette, and so seem entirely legitimate. How someone would compare it to a lottery seems goofy. The only "chance" effect on the outcome was in the tastes of the voters.
And that brings me to offer another compliment: to the voters. That was a lot of thoughtful listening to make it through all those entries. Oh, and another compliment to Dave and Randy for the extra effort to keep the voting fair.
Bill B
What a great post, thanks Much for it Bill "bvideo" - You have a comprehensive outline of what this has all been about. It's especially appreciated that you took the time to pass it all on, since this thread has been marred a bit here and there with pointless, obnoxious Monday morning Quarterbacking, and nasty, whining attacks from an out-of-control sore loser. One never knows how any event is going to play out - I guess I need to keep in mind that the larger the group of participants, the more likely some human foible-driven bumps in the road are likely to crop up. There were just more than I ever expected. It's fine. We had a good time, most of us, and the results have value. So I'm content. Knowing that folks like you appreciate the effort of all involved is a very good thing to hear. So thanks again, Bill. Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/04 20:54:38
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T.S.
I replied to your email Randy.
Got it, Tod, and I replied. Now, I just need to hear from Steve Cocchi. - SteveC - where aaaaaaaaaaaaare you? And which prize do you want?--GPO, JABB, COMB, Steinway, or World? Reply to my email address which you have. Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/04 21:01:41
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Twigman
Guitarman1
So, whats next?..lol
MIDI jazz/Big band?
Having some sort of event/contest/thing with that basic idea is a good one. Based on various things that have come up during this Shootout, I would suggest: --Use a really excellent MIDI file that people aren't likely to quibble about. Either the event organizer cooks up a whiz bang file, or one is provided by a pro Jazz arranger. --Assemble a panel of judges to determine the outcome. --Spell out every possible thing you can think of about how to work with MIDI. Don't assume that contestants even know what MIDI is. Assemble an encyclopedia of MIDI info if needs be. --Have the thing last HALF the time this one did. This got dragged out too long. --If there are prizes, get them established before the contest starts. --Nail down the guidelines SUPER tightly, and make it clear from the beginning that entries not meeting those guidelines will be thrown out. But most importantly - DON'T ASK ME TO HELP!---I've done plenty of this for now, thanks.  Randy B.
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Muzock
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/04 22:52:06
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Yes Randy, you've done enought for the community right now and you need a good break. Have fun making things for yourself a little bit. Everybody have learn something from this activity and it was a real pleasure to participate.  Take care and TY very much!!! G.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/04 23:41:43
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Muzock
Yes Randy, you've done enought for the community right now and you need a good break. Have fun making things for yourself a little bit. Everybody have learn something from this activity and it was a real pleasure to participate.
Take care and TY very much!!!
G.
Muzock - Gilles! - You've brought another very welcome breath of fresh air to the thread, thank you much for it. And thank you also for your very entertaining entry #36 - I liked that one a lot. Thanks for joining in. Randy B.
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Guitarpima
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 00:05:43
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For contests to ever work properl here, there would have to be a pole option for the forum. Otherwise, there will just be more problems. That's how I found out the problem with this pole in the first place. I set my browser so the background is black and the text is white. I forget the link colors, probably yellow and green. The vote button did not show up in my browser but I saw the pointer turn into a hand so I thought it was the vote button. I click it and thought I would see the rusults thus far but did not. So I figured it did not work right and tried it a few more times. Eventually I set my browser to normal and that's when I realized the voting was flawed. So again, a forum poll would be the only way to go. Again, Randy and Dave, you did a great job. Randy, I'm sorry you thought I was "a sore loser." I assure you, that's not the case. If I can't be honest about how I feel, what's the point? I think the results should be posted as well. That does bother me. Even if I had the fewest votes, I would like to know.
post edited by Guitarpima - 2010/09/05 00:07:47
Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy. Win 7 x64 X2 Intel DX58SO, Intel i7 920 2.66ghz 12gb DDR3 ASUS ATI EAH5750 650w PSU 4x WD HDs 320gb DVD, DVD RW Eleven Rack, KRK Rokit 8s and 10s sub
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bitflipper
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 00:05:49
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Hey, Randy, that sounds really good! Breath sounds and everything. The piano and guitar weren't anything special, but the sax - wow. Clarinet was nice too. I've always been on the lookout for an ultra-smooth clarinet - if you're familiar with the clarinet solo on Enya's Watermark album, that kind of sound. Does GPO have something like that?
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 02:03:41
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bitflipper
Hey, Randy, that sounds really good! Breath sounds and everything. The piano and guitar weren't anything special, but the sax - wow. Clarinet was nice too. I've always been on the lookout for an ultra-smooth clarinet - if you're familiar with the clarinet solo on Enya's Watermark album, that kind of sound. Does GPO have something like that?
Glad you had a listen, Bit - and glad you liked it. Breath rasp is done with a continuous controller, so you can always bring in just how much you want. There are keyswitches also with a variety of breath intakes to use at the top of passages. Key clicks are also assigned to a CC for really up-close work. The piano is a bright upright done with stereo samples, so it's very different from the more muted Steinway in GPO. The electric guitar is serviceable and there if needed. There's a good variety of basses and drum kits too. I did this track last year, and can't remember why I didn't use the clarinet in JABB. It's very good and somehow the samples really do lend themselves to a jazz sound more than the orchestral clarinets in GPO. I know Watermark, would have to listen again to know exactly what you mean, but I think a lot of what's heard on that album is Enya's trademark wash of reverb and layering. I would think the controlled timbre of the GPO clarinets could lend themselves to that. I used a group of JABB saxes in this, but they're backdrop, as you can hear, blended with the clarinets, so you can't really get an idea of their individual characteristics. But when approached in an organic way, as in without quantization, and Played as opposed to programmed note-by-note, these JABB instruments can really come alive. It's all the brass in JABB which is the meat of the library. Some great sounds are available with the trumpets, with an excellent "scream" - doits and falls. The programmers set out to have all the instruments needed for a jazz band arrangement to be available in one library, and they succeeded. People who have trouble making the set do what they want just aren't massaging the data enough. Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 02:18:25
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Robert - "Guitarpima"-- "...If I can't be honest about how I feel, what's the point?..."
That's exactly the point, Robert. You have proven you can't be honest about you feel. You've made a spectacle of yourself, ranting on and on about how awful you think the winning entry is, making the absurd claim that if you really wanted to win the contest you could have, making it very clear that you're pissed off and bitter about the contest - and then you come back on the thread as if you have amnesia about how you've behaved. "Bummed out???? Who meeeee?!" It's the most irritating behavior someone can indulge in - to throw fits and then pretend they didn't.
Just get a grip. Grow a pair. See a shrink. Whatever it takes.
Randy B.
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jsaras
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 09:50:13
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I don't think that the Jazz/Big Band thing would go too far. There are are far fewer options in terms of libraries; there's Garritan JABB ($149), Sonivox Broadway Big Band (which is only $2500) and a couple of physical modeling synths for some individual instruments. JABB is a fantastic deal. It's terrific for writing, checking parts and creating nice demos, but it's not in the league of the Sonivox product. Also, there's really even less of an objective ideal of what a big band should sound like. I've heard bone-dry studio recordings and some recorded live in a dance hall. Some groups are super-tight, others , like Ellington's bands, had a unique sound because of the highly idiosyncratic instrumentalists who were probably on several substances. I vote that we just go to garritan.com and sonivoxmi.com and just let the demos do the talking!
post edited by jsaras - 2010/09/05 09:51:22
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DeeringAmps
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 10:16:10
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Randy B "I guess you mean you felt the brass in the first few measures seemed generally weak to you, Tom? In what way exactly? I didn't have that same impression, so am interested in what you mean." Sorry for the late reply Randy, I have a project going and I've just jumped to the last post when logging in and missed your question. (Please keep in mind for the rest of this I'm "just" a guitar player!) Section A (if you like) bars 2-10, the Trumpet is carrying the melody, and that to my ear was the least convincing (in terms of realism) voice (or better said most often was the least convincing). All the winners were on my short list (I did miss #54, I don't know why) and seemed to have the "best" Trumpets. Now, was it the sample used, the way it was articulated, I don't know. Thats why I posed the question: So I'm just curious how others felt while going through the entries, what were the major weaknesses?
Unfortunately all I've done above is restate that it was the Trumpet that seemed to be lacking in most of the entries. I get the impression you work with orchestral samples quite a bit and maybe I am being too critical? Most entries "fooled" me pretty well with the Strings and the French Horns. One of the winners (I think) commented that he felt the French Horns were tough as well, and yet to me they all sounded "good". I wish I could be more specific, maybe that's why I was seeking discussion. Again, I know my answer is vague. I think this exercise did exactly what you and Dave set out to do! It gave us a good feel for the various libraries, and proved I think (#54 is all Sonar, right? The TTS sample is pretty good!) that its not the "tools", its the artistry of using the "tools". One last thought, and maybe I should just leave it alone, I'm VERY disappointed in the "sour grapes". You and Dave did a great job, attracted attention to Sonar, overcame fraud, let the community decide if an entry met the criteria. I've already said I know this was a "labor of love". Top marks for organization and effort, can't thank the both of you enough! Tom
post edited by DeeringAmps - 2010/09/05 10:17:24
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Attomik Punk
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 12:06:58
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So I'm just curious how others felt while going through the entries, what were the major weaknesses?
...the Trumpet that seemed to be lacking in most of the entries.
I definitely had a hard time with getting a good trumpet sound! I wanted to get that bright, majestic sound and found that many of Miroslav's trumpet samples lacked a quick attack. So I turned to checking out the trumpet staccato samples and tried to layer them with the "regular," more legato trumpet samples. My process was to clone tracks, keep one of the tracks for staccato (deleting the more legato notes) and the other track for legato (deleting the shorter notes). Then assign the bright staccato trumpet sample to the track with the short notes and the more legato trumpet sample to the track with the longer notes. That did not work too well. However, yesterday I learned (in Miroslav) how to assign more than 1 sample to the same track. GO FIGURE I found this information in the user manual! [BTW- anyone who doesn't know this and wants to know: You mouse click, hold, and drag on the midi channel number to increase or decrease the channel number. To me this was NOT too obvious or intuitive, but then I'm n00bish.] This technique seems to work much better. I'm able to maintain the integrity entire track's notes, etc. but end up with a thicker sound. I actually tried 4 different samples assigned to 1 track. I tried 2 different brighter sounding trumpet staccato samples (one solo and one ensemble) together with 2 different "loop" samples (also one solo and one ensemble)...it sounds better. Anyways, just sharing. Anyone else have any trumpet or brass "secrets?" Or other tricks that you felt were significant to this project ? (I did review everyone's notes in the Shootout website, very good info, thanks all for sharing!!)...also Randy- what a great looking website, user friendly, and very well organized!! ~Dan #51 Miroslav, #66 Sonik Synth
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Michael135
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 12:22:52
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DeeringAmps
Randy B
"I guess you mean you felt the brass in the first few measures seemed generally weak to you, Tom? In what way exactly? I didn't have that same impression, so am interested in what you mean."
Sorry for the late reply Randy, I have a project going and I've just jumped to the last post when logging in and missed your question. (Please keep in mind for the rest of this I'm "just" a guitar player!)
Section A (if you like) bars 2-10, the Trumpet is carrying the melody, and that to my ear was the least convincing (in terms of realism) voice (or better said most often was the least convincing). All the winners were on my short list (I did miss #54, I don't know why) and seemed to have the "best" Trumpets. Now, was it the sample used, the way it was articulated, I don't know.
Thats why I posed the question:
So I'm just curious how others felt while going through the entries, what were the major weaknesses?
Unfortunately all I've done above is restate that it was the Trumpet that seemed to be lacking in most of the entries. I get the impression you work with orchestral samples quite a bit and maybe I am being too critical? Most entries "fooled" me pretty well with the Strings and the French Horns. One of the winners (I think) commented that he felt the French Horns were tough as well, and yet to me they all sounded "good". I wish I could be more specific, maybe that's why I was seeking discussion. Again, I know my answer is vague.
I think this exercise did exactly what you and Dave set out to do! It gave us a good feel for the various libraries, and proved I think (#54 is all Sonar, right? The TTS sample is pretty good!) that its not the "tools", its the artistry of using the "tools".
One last thought, and maybe I should just leave it alone, I'm VERY disappointed in the "sour grapes". You and Dave did a great job, attracted attention to Sonar, overcame fraud, let the community decide if an entry met the criteria. I've already said I know this was a "labor of love".
Top marks for organization and effort, can't thank the both of you enough!
Tom
I'm the one who found the french horns somewhat challenging. I think this is mostly because I was going above and beyond trying to get them to sound not just good, but amazing. I was listening to an actual recording of the track with the real french horns, trying to match how they sounded. I probably could have gotten away with less work, but I really wanted to have the brass section spot on since I was already spending a lot of time on the trumpets. I also felt that the trumpets in most of the entries were lacking. I remember thinking to my self, that if I could really nail the trumpets, I could have a shot at winning this thing. The very first thing I did was spend a lot of time working on the trumpets, until I felt the had a strong enough attack, and sustain. I found most entries either had a great attack, but the trumpets kind of just fizzled out right after it, or that they had a decent sustain, but the attack sounded something like a duck quack - I think these might have been muted trumpets- which really didn't match the power and grandeur of the opening of this song. The whole thing gave me the impression that a lot of people here never took the time to step back from listening to samples, and take a second to listen to a recording of the real thing. Since I knew from personal experience just how difficult it was to get the brass convincing, all my votes were for those who I really felt nailed how it should sound. I actually didn't vote for the winning entry because I didn't like the brass. However, I do LOVE the strings in it. That's the one mistake I made... not enough time working with the strings. 
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DeeringAmps
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 12:27:45
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Dan & Michael,
Thanks to both of you.
This is just what I was looking for.
Tom
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 12:31:16
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This is great, to see more discussion on the various challenges faced with this project. Thank you Michael, Dan, and Tom - I want to join in on the Trumpet discussion here in a bit. Right now - MAJOR CORRECTION to the notes on the Shootout site for enry #61 done by Vlad Zakr from the Garritan Forum. The woodwinds he used in his entry were from: Wallander Instruments --not the Wivi instruments for iPhone as originally stated in his notes. That was a misinterpretation on my part about what library he was referring to. Interesting site, the Wallander site. I hadn't been there before. It's a highly respected collection of physical modeling virtual instruments made by this company located in Sweden. Randy B.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 13:08:55
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So, Tom "DeeringAmps"--thanks for returning to the question about the opening measures of this Star Trek theme. And thank you, Dan "AttomikPunk" and Michael135 for your helpful replies. All I can really say is that I think it's safe to say that in general, everyone has trouble being happy with their brass sections in virtual orchestra pieces. I remember when I first started using samples, I was dismayed at how thin and small trumpets could sound. When I first started using GPO, I didn't think the trumpets sounded any better than the synth trumpets I'd used years before, in fact, I thought they didn't sound as good. Then I started to grasp at least one factor that isn't immediately obvious: Hardware synths, and some current soft synths like Dim Pro tend to stress Fatness of sound, boosting that effect with programmed chorusing and reverb. Those synth patches can sound really impressive on their own. But once you start trying to mix a large number of instruments, the way we need to in orchestral emulations - all that fatness piles up really fast, making mud of the mix since everything is competing with all that programmed FATness. The approach in sampled orchestral libraries, described in a simplified way, is to go back to the smaller, more natural sound of instruments which may sound puny in isolation, but which group together for a much better ensemble sound than the giant solo instruments described above. So that's an important factor. - But it remains that brass samples can be so sedate, very nice for some styles of classical music, but seemingly inadequate for the beefier, dynamic sound we expect in things like movie sound tracks. One very useful tool in GPO are the brass overlays. There are three versions of the overlay sounds for each instrument in the brass family - three levels of aggressiveness. These aren't meant to be instruments played on their own. They're ambient samples programmed to provide the characteristic ringing, brassy sound when brass instruments are playing forte. The best technique for layering in these overlays in GPO: --Develop each individual brass track with all the MIDI editing you want to do, including a liberal use of CC1 for volume control. --Duplicate each of those MIDI tracks and assign them to the appropriate overlays. --Erase the CC1 data in the duplicated overlay tracks. --In real time, record new CC1 data for the overlays, focusing primarily on swooping that ringing sound in whenever it seems most appropriate for the piece you're working in i.e. the loudest sections. When you're done, these overlays will be silent for probably 75% of your track. I guarantee that technique is very well worth the effort. GPO also has brassier, more aggressive SAM Brass samples for each of the instruments in the brass family - brighter, more "in your face" instruments than the more reserved original brass samples which are still included in the library. BUT - Things like the opening measures of this Star Trek theme still present a challenge. There's a limit to how much one can do with whatever samples being used. In the case of GPO trumpets for this opening - the velocities needed to be full on to get the fastest attack, CC1 needed to be hovering near the full throttle mark, and the overlays needed to be brought in. - I wasn't as bothered by the trumpet opening as you guys seem to be. And I know that's partly because I tend, for whatever reason, to more quickly accept whatever sound is being used in a recording than some folks. I can hear something clearly meant to be a trumpet, for instance, and I make the mental adjustment, "OK, that sound represents a trumpet - now I can focus on the more important element here, the music." And so on. THANK YOU guys for the kind words about the Shootout. It wasn't an easy thing to put together and maintain but I'm very glad I was involved. Randy B.
post edited by rbowser - 2010/09/05 13:12:15
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tom1
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 14:06:17
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For those of you that have stated that sample orchestral libraries are still not even close to sounding like an orchestra, I'd like to mention a few things.
A 'live' orchestra is comprised of a group of musicians. Each musician and instrument has their own unique sound and style of playing.
A string section comprising of ten individual musicians will have a 'character' that can not be duplicated by one lone musician overdubbing each part. (Much like one vocalist that sings four part harmony by overdubbing will never sound the same as four individual singers.)
When you score a soundtrack in today's world you are usually working as a lone musician overdubbing each part; Comparing this 'solo' effort (even with a talented musician) against a 20-30 piece orchestra is not a fair comparison. I can almost guarantee that the orchestra will have a 'character' and 'layer' of sound that one musician will not be able to capture. Each musician 'tunes' his instrument to his/her ear. Each 'tuning' as close as it may be, is still a little bit different; the individual musicianship is just a little bit different. All these 'differences' as subtle as they may be, give the orchestra a 'character of sound' that one individual cannot duplicate.
Some of the sampled orchestral sounds still have a way to go, (brass, sax) but sampled strings, in my opinion, from the major libraries are there.
I believe most of us would have a very difficult time in distinguishing 'real strings' from 'sampled strings' if the 'playing surface' was even. (same studio, same engineer, the same number of musicians playing 'live' instruments and the same number of musicians playing 'sampled instruments, and most importantly, matching up the sampled string to the 'live' string.
Matching up the the sampled sound to the 'live' sound is much more difficult that one might first imagine. Finding the exact sound you are looking for is time consuming, and might not even be available with your sample library. How many times have you found the right sound but the attack wasn't right. A 'live' musician can go from a slow attack to a fast attack in a moment; A 'sample' musician has a little more difficulty in doing this. How many times have you settled for a sampled sound that wasn't quite right but it was the closest you had in your library.
The old timers learned things in arranging class that were important for the day; I remember having to learn how many instruments of one kind you would need to blend with instruments of another kind. In other words, if you have one trumpet and one french horn playing unison, you will not hear the french horn at all. You need to have two french horns for every trumpet. Now with your DAW you just raise the volume on this track or that track;
Also there is a 'protocol' on how an orchestra is seated. String section here, brass section there, etc. Now you have sampled orchestra mixes and the cellos are panned all the way left, violins are panned all the way right, and trumpets are here, trombones are over there. To achieve the realism of a 'live' orchestra, you must mix the sampled orchestra accordingly.
I listened to some of the work you guys did on this project and it was very impressive. Back in my day what you people accomplished would have been impossible.
We are still at the very beginning of 'sampled sound' technology. I can't even imagine how this will evolve in the years ahead.
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T.S.
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 14:39:25
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Hey, Bit - Here's a thing I did awhile back primarily with JABB. It's my instrumental version of "Honeypie" by The Beatles.
Hey Randy that was pretty good, I almost felt like I was sitting in the BigFork Inn listenting to a buch of oldtimers doing their thing. Well, heh heh with out the record noise and scratches.
Glad you had a listen, Bit - and glad you liked it. Breath rasp is done with a continuous controller, so you can always bring in just how much you want. There are keyswitches also with a variety of breath intakes to use at the top of passages. Key clicks are also assigned to a CC for really up-close work.
Since you mention keyswitches, was that done with the ARIA Player or the older Kontakt? Do you have anything with the JABB brass..? 
post edited by T.S. - 2010/09/05 14:49:44
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 15:28:58
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T.S.
Hey, Bit - Here's a thing I did awhile back primarily with JABB. It's my instrumental version of "Honeypie" by The Beatles.
Hey Randy that was pretty good, I almost felt like I was sitting in the BigFork Inn listenting to a buch of oldtimers doing their thing. Well, heh heh with out the record noise and scratches.
Glad you had a listen, Bit - and glad you liked it. Breath rasp is done with a continuous controller, so you can always bring in just how much you want. There are keyswitches also with a variety of breath intakes to use at the top of passages. Key clicks are also assigned to a CC for really up-close work.
Since you mention keyswitches, was that done with the ARIA Player or the older Kontakt?
Do you have anything with the JABB brass..?
Hi, Tod - Thanks. This went over really well with the Garritan crowd, and this is the first time I've posted it anywhere else. That was done in Kontakt - I had to open the .cwp file just now to make sure, I couldn't remember. I've kept Kontakt and use it in combination with Aria. I make extensive use of the late-lamented Garritan Strad and Gofriller Cello - and those only work in Kontakt. So I find myself having the two players side by side in a lot of projects. It's been rare for me to do a pure JABB piece. I usually pick and choose instruments, adding some from JABB to instruments in GPO and other libraries. So, no, I don't really have a piece that demos the JABB brass prominently. Randy B.
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noldar12
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 17:46:42
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Some comments about library "weaknesses"...
In general, it seems to be true that whatever instrument one plays, one tends to find the corresponding sample library to be the weakest.
As a non-brass player, I found much of the brass to be ok in most of the entries. What struck me, as a strings player, was how synthetic the strings often tended to sound - particularly the high strings in the string melody section.
Interestingly, whatever one may think of the supposed "generic" sound of GPO, GPO strikes me as allowing greater flexibility in writing styles, as compared to, say, EWQLSO, but requires more work to get a polished sound (I would confess being one that wished GOS existed in a current format, with extended ranges).
As for new string libraries, IMO, HS is strictly for "Hollywood" (as intended), and LASS, while in key ways ground-breaking, lacks sufficient articulations to emulate a live player (and still has far too few posted demos).
As has been said, there is no substitute for a real orchestra. But again, considering what was "state of the art" just a few years ago, great progress has been made.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 18:02:28
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tom1
For those of you that have stated that sample orchestral libraries are still not even close to sounding like an orchestra, I'd like to mention a few things.
What an excellent post, Tom. You've crafted some text to give any reader plenty to ponder. Great! Randy B.
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tom1
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 18:09:25
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Noldar:
Very interesting;
I am not a string player and I hear string samples having not a clue to the nuances of the instruments involved.
They sound fantastic to my ears. (LASS sounds killer)
But I have dabbled with the trumpet a bit and the 'pop' that is associated with a live brass section I haven't heard with any brass samples that I have listened to.
If you've ever been right in front of a live brass section you know what I mean;
You made some very interesting points that never crossed my mind; (what's left of it)
Sorry to hijak your thread Randy; but a job well done by you and BitFlipper.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 18:09:41
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noldar12
Some comments about library "weaknesses"...
In general, it seems to be true that whatever instrument one plays, one tends to find the corresponding sample library to be the weakest.
As a non-brass player, I found much of the brass to be ok in most of the entries. What struck me, as a strings player, was how synthetic the strings often tended to sound - particularly the high strings in the string melody section.
Interestingly, whatever one may think of the supposed "generic" sound of GPO, GPO strikes me as allowing greater flexibility in writing styles, as compared to, say, EWQLSO, but requires more work to get a polished sound (I would confess being one that wished GOS existed in a current format, with extended ranges).
As for new string libraries, IMO, HS is strictly for "Hollywood" (as intended), and LASS, while in key ways ground-breaking, lacks sufficient articulations to emulate a live player (and still has far too few posted demos).
As has been said, there is no substitute for a real orchestra. But again, considering what was "state of the art" just a few years ago, great progress has been made.
Jim, I want to thank you also for another thoughtful post on this thread which has the huge general topic of "virtual orchestras." I've known for a long time that I don't have a lot of company when it comes to my attitude about software orchestral instruments. As I've mentioned on this thread and others, I feel we should be using and enjoying software generated music as something apart and distinct from the music produced by a live orchestra. I feel we've all gotten lost in a blind alley when we keep thinking in terms of a virtual orchestra needing to sound "just like" a live orchestra. And as I said recently, I think synthesists who were creating music before the advent of sampling technology are to be envied. They were composing music without the emphasis on trying to create replacements for recordings of live musicians. I think we should still be thinking more in those terms. Too much literalness, not enough imagination in what we're doing with samples. Randy B.
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T.S.
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 18:09:43
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That was done in Kontakt - I had to open the .cwp file just now to make sure, I couldn't remember. I've kept Kontakt and use it in combination with Aria. I make extensive use of the late-lamented Garritan Strad and Gofriller Cello - and those only work in Kontakt. So I find myself having the two players side by side in a lot of projects.
It's been rare for me to do a pure JABB piece. I usually pick and choose instruments, adding some from JABB to instruments in GPO and other libraries. So, no, I don't really have a piece that demos the JABB brass prominently.
Okay Randy, thanks. I guess I'll have to wait to see how Aria works. I love Kontakt and have 99% of my libraries in it. I'm really hopeing the brass will have that good big-band brass sound. I mentioned I would like to try revisit some old bigband midi stuff I did years ago. After digging around I managed to find an old piece I put together back in the late 80s or early 90s. I think I used the first Cakewalk midi sequencer I'd gotten and probably mixed it down to 2-track tape. All I had in those days was an old Korg M1, Krz K2000 (I think I had it then), some FBO1 boxes, and some kind of midi piano modual. It started out to be a rendition of "Night In Tunisia" but ended up being something totally different so I called it "Beyond Tunisia". I'm sorry, I don't upload many mp3s to the internet so you'll probably have to download this. https://www.yousendit.com/download/UFVxQmtlZ2p0Ni92Wmc9PQ T.S.
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 18:16:57
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"...Sorry to hijack your thread Randy..." Tom!-- This is everyone's thread, AND you're not hijacking it in the least. The topic is orchestral software in general, and more specifically, what we did with that kind of software in this contest - Your contributions are right in the flow. Keep it coming!
Tod - "...I'm really hoping the brass will have that good big-band brass sound..." Some people really like JABB, some people don't. But I think it's safe to say nobody has said "HEY!--This is finally the real-deal when it comes to the big-band brassy sound." The instruments are fine, and cleverly programmed. I just cannot emphasize enough that anyone who opens up JABB and doesn't take a lot of time to really massage their MIDI tracks will be disappointed. I've heard fantastic things done with it, and know that those projects weren't whipped out over night. Be prepared to work. I think you'll be happy with the results if you do that.
Randy B.
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Michael135
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 19:56:55
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I think once we get HollywoodBrass, things will change drastically. If they make it anywhere near as nice as HS sounds (Which, IMO has nailed what live strings should sound like - yes, it sounds great with classical stuff too) , then I'm quite sure that very soon we'll have to really REALLY listen very hard to tell if it's a live performance or not. Also, I saw someone mention that GPO strings are more flexible than EWQLSO ones. I don't think this is true. There are a HUGE number of articulations to work with in SO, while the Garritan ones are more limited. If anything, I would say that the Garritan strings are easier to work with and get good results than the SO ones. I've heard truly amazing things done with SO, that I know can not be replicated by Garritan. It's just a matter of knowing what your doing, and being prepared to do a LOT of work. As a side note, I don't think the Garritan strings sound bad, or that there's anything wrong with them. SO sounds better, but the increase in quality of sounds comes with an increase of cost, and a significant decrease in ease of use.
post edited by Michael135 - 2010/09/05 20:06:08
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rbowser
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Re:Orchestral Shootout, Part 4: The Winners and Discussion
2010/09/05 20:26:22
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"...then I'm quite sure that very soon we'll have to really REALLY listen very hard to tell if it's a live performance or not..."
If that's what floats your boat!
The Hollywood guys can already pull that trick off, as was pointed out on this thread.
Randy B.
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