tlw
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/06 22:19:47
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Genghis
I use it quite a bit, but I pay attention to what I"m doing and how I route my tracks. Never been a real issue. Noticed it happen once and figured out why it did, so I actually make sure my MIDI is routed right.
Ditto.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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tlw
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/06 22:51:19
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SilverBlueMedallion
Yes, I can do the same.... but HERE is the problem. I think I am figuring this out. So, if I start Sonar with my keyboard UNPLUGGED, the input has no option but to go to "NONE" (which is really "OMNI" (see: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3541278)
so when that happens, MIDI goes everywhere. I shouldn't have to keep watching all the inputs all the time. They change randomly.
It's generally good practice to hook up controllers, interface etc. before launching Sonar or any other DAW. I wonder if the inputs changing is a Windows thing. Sonar relies on what Windows tells it is there concerning controllers, audio interfaces and any other MIDI devices attached to the system. Windows has a habit of not recognising that e.g. a controller that's just been plugged in to "this" USB socket is the same controller that was before plugged into "that" socket, so Windows creates a new MIDI port for it. And then the DAW which relies on Windows telling it what's attached, sees what it thinks is a new, different MIDI port and does things accordingly. And once in a while Windows will allocate a new ID to something that's always plugged into the same port. Always plugging MIDI devices into the same USB socket is therefore a good idea because it minimises the risk of this happening. Sonar can not set up a track to take input from a MIDI controller that isn't there or is there physically but Windows having given it a new "name" isn't the one Sonar expects to see. So when a project is opened and Sonar finds the MIDI routing it contains can't be accommodated Sonar does it's default thing in the anticipation that a human will come along and sort it all out. I usually have nine or ten MIDI ports operating hardware, and I make sure all the external USB connected MIDI hardware is connected and working before I launch a DAW, and I have templates set up which make creating a new project much easier. And which saves a great deal of time by avoiding having to go through MIDI tracks and change their input and output ports.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/06 23:23:56
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OK a big problem I just experienced was, the volume CC7 on my FM8 softsynth kept being turned down because I had MIDI Out enabled on a different softsynth. The reason? Because my Midi controller hardware was turned off, the track was set to "NONE" (which actually is OMNI) which means it will listen to all MIDI traffic. Terrible design choice.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/06 23:27:36
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In the video, I see VST scan during startup... depending on scanning settings, other plug-ins can disturb operations. So, please turn automatic VST scanning off.
I see that, but it is not changing anything, it is very quick. Also I will need it next time I add a new VST.
I have already asked that question, and from your previous post the answer can not be "no". Which controllers and other MIDI equipment is enabled in Sonar MIDI settings?
Try disable them ALL.
Event Viewer is not showing everything, in fact Sonar by default sending TONS of MIDI messages which you normally can not notice. Have you disabled "Reset controllers on play stop" in the Project / MIDI preferences ?
i have disabled them all. No go. Yes, I disabled "Reset controllers on play stop"...
It's as clean as clean can be. If you see the video below, you can see how clean and simple I made it. Nothing should be causing this. I did edit the video, but just to save time for the viewer, I had to answer an IM in between doing things lol. I didn't edit out anything in Sonar.
I was not assuming you have manipulated the video. Just in case you have not focused the parameter by mouse, it could be focused by something else, which in turn could point in some direction to understand the problem. The video is not clean in respect to MIDI. And SOMETHING is changing the parameter. I do not think this something is Sonar, the only way it can do this is explicitly setting it throw automation API. But so far there was no evidence it ever did that (as long as you are not using Control Surfaces and do not have Automation lanes in the project). In this particular case, I can imagine that Z3TA has a bug (which we can not reproduce because of some specific MS runtime you have... in the video, you have plenty of "bloatware" installed and partially running... do you have it on your other computers as well?). The value after the project loading correspond to the default preset, shown in the beginning of the video. Try to change default preset in Z3TA and repeat the test. Does is still revert to the same value? the machine has Microsoft Office on it, yes I got an IM... i doubt an IM changed my synth parameter. No bloatware though. No it doesnt happen on the presets I have tried.
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ampfixer
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/06 23:42:01
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/01/07 17:28:08
SilverBlueMedallion
OK a big problem I just experienced was, the volume CC7 on my FM8 softsynth kept being turned down because I had MIDI Out enabled on a different softsynth. The reason? Because my Midi controller hardware was turned off, the track was set to "NONE" (which actually is OMNI) which means it will listen to all MIDI traffic. Terrible design choice.
I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. If there was no controller to turn down the FM8 then there has to be embedded envelopes in the controller lanes of one or both of the tracks. WHy not set the midi channel for the FM8 to one you are not using in the project. That would help you locate the source of the cross talk, if that's in fact what's going on.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/06 23:44:05
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ampfixer
SilverBlueMedallion
OK a big problem I just experienced was, the volume CC7 on my FM8 softsynth kept being turned down because I had MIDI Out enabled on a different softsynth. The reason? Because my Midi controller hardware was turned off, the track was set to "NONE" (which actually is OMNI) which means it will listen to all MIDI traffic. Terrible design choice.
I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. If there was no controller to turn down the FM8 then there has to be embedded envelopes in the controller lanes of one or both of the tracks. WHy not set the midi channel for the FM8 to one you are not using in the project. That would help you locate the source of the cross talk, if that's in fact what's going on.
the CC 7 data was coming from a MIDI-out from one of my other softsynths... and BECAUSE I had no hardware controller plugged in, the input of my FM8 track was set to "NONE".... which actually isn't "none" at all, infact it is "omni"... so its going to take data from my MIDI-out from any synth track that might be spitting it out. Very poor design
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jpbanksjr
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/07 01:14:41
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rlared
First, I will agree with the OP that Sonar has plenty of MIDI bugs and things that just don't work right. I really hope Sonar works on some of the MIDI features, particularly the step sequencer and programming drums.
I work 90% with MIDI and VSTi's, but I'm not a composer so I only will have 6-8 tracks usually and not a ton of plugins. I don't use advanced MIDI features. As much as new features are cool, I'd prefer they spend more time on bugs and enhancing existing features.
However, I've also tried Studio One 2, Studio One 3, Reaper and Cubase repeatedly. I've actually spent more time demoing new toys and switching DAWs and plugins than actually creating music, which is why I decided to reformat, bought lifetime updates, installed only the SONAR stock plugins and Komplete 10 (which I also own), and refuse to install anything else. I need to learn to use what I have to its full capabilities, which will take years as-is! I find the Lifetime Updates to be a relief. . . now I'm committed to a DAW and I don't have to worry about paying more to upgrade to the next version. It simplifies my life.
Other DAW's will always look shiny and better, particularly when watching videos or reading reviews online. Their features seem awesome and super useful when I watch a pro using them in a video. I watch Hans Zimmer use Cubase and it seems like I could do the same thing if I just had Cubase!
However, like all things in life, most of it is just advertising and the fantasy that this new software is going to revolutionize your music making (and life) for the better. Once you start using them, you start to notice the bugs and things that don't work right. They all have them.
After trying out other DAW's repeatedly, I always came back to Sonar because it provided the best mix of features for me.
I say this only to give you some food for thought. It sounds like you're an advanced user and you've used Sonar for a long time, so it may be the right choice for you to change. But make sure you separate the marketing hype from reality when you decide!
I come to this forum quite often and do a lot of reading but I've never posted anything besides asking questions. Interestingly, I too got caught up in the shiny new look of Studio One 3 and Cubase 9. I work entirely in MIDI with the exception of recording my sax. When I tried Studio One 3 for the first time I was amazed at how fast it opened and I was able to get to creating music. But I noticed it didn't have a staff view and I really need that for reference purposes. It's much easier for me to see something wrong in the staff view as opposed to the PRV. I've also looked at Cubase's staff view and for me, Sonar's is better. I know a lot of people scream about how bad notation is in Sonar but if I was looking to produce scores, etc... I'd use Sibelius or Finale. Anyway, this thread was about MIDI and I can say I've never had any issues with MIDI in Sonar. But then I'm not a power MIDI user like the OP. I have a simple M-Audio controller and VSTs. But I agree with Rlared, it's time for me to really learn Sonar. I've used it for decades but in reality I've barely scratched the surface of what it can do. I know this doesn't help the OP but I've been thinking about this for some time and this thread seemed like a good place to talk about it. jp
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soens
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/07 03:27:17
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Anderton
There's a reason why Propellerheads and Ableton canned their communities, and also, why they won't be the only companies to do so.
I've heard of canned laughter, but a canned community? That's a new one on me.  I only hope if they do can us, they delete my entire post count along with any other evidence I was ever here. 
post edited by soens - 2017/01/07 08:09:19
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/07 03:32:03
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☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2017/01/07 14:21:40
Much of the midi routing shenanigans would be solved if software sources were excluded from "none" no matter what.
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ampfixer
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/07 03:40:17
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☄ Helpfulby coolbass 2017/01/07 04:01:50
SilverBlueMedallion
ampfixer
SilverBlueMedallion
OK a big problem I just experienced was, the volume CC7 on my FM8 softsynth kept being turned down because I had MIDI Out enabled on a different softsynth. The reason? Because my Midi controller hardware was turned off, the track was set to "NONE" (which actually is OMNI) which means it will listen to all MIDI traffic. Terrible design choice.
I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. If there was no controller to turn down the FM8 then there has to be embedded envelopes in the controller lanes of one or both of the tracks. WHy not set the midi channel for the FM8 to one you are not using in the project. That would help you locate the source of the cross talk, if that's in fact what's going on.
the CC 7 data was coming from a MIDI-out from one of my other softsynths... and BECAUSE I had no hardware controller plugged in, the input of my FM8 track was set to "NONE".... which actually isn't "none" at all, infact it is "omni"... so its going to take data from my MIDI-out from any synth track that might be spitting it out.
Very poor design
You really don't want any help or ideas do you. You've completely ignored my suggestions and re-stated the problem. I know what the problem is. Yes the label should be different when it's set for omni. But there are things you can do to minimize your problems but can't be bothered. Don't waste our collective time if all you want to do is stand on a soap box and complain that everything sucks.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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pwalpwal
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/07 05:35:54
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AndertonThere's a reason why Propellerheads and Ableton canned their communities, and also, why they won't be the only companies to do so.
that's not right, as well you should know! unless you're mis-using the word "communities" you know full well that they cannot be created or destroyed (canned) but only serviced, or not-serviced... if companies are withdrawing from servicing the communities that spring up around their product(s), those communities will just move elsewhere, but they will still exist... and fwiw, withdrawing from servicing a community that grows up around your company's product says far more about the product and the company than it does about the community...
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TigerTheFrog
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/07 15:30:46
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You should use whatever works best for your workflow. Reason is a wonderful and I've used it for years.
There's no reason why you only have to use one tool.
Good luck!
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/07 20:37:45
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TigerTheFrog
You should use whatever works best for your workflow. Reason is a wonderful and I've used it for years.
There's no reason why you only have to use one tool.
Good luck!
$$
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John
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 06:44:43
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To prevent the volume on the FM8 from being lowered goto the Event List View and insert a CC7 with level you want the FM8 to play at the very beginning. If for some reason you have other CC7s in the track and don't want them delete them. Once that has been done you can have reset controllers without problems.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 09:47:05
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John
To prevent the volume on the FM8 from being lowered goto the Event List View and insert a CC7 with level you want the FM8 to play at the very beginning. If for some reason you have other CC7s in the track and don't want them delete them. Once that has been done you can have reset controllers without problems.
and what if i am not starting playback at the very beginning? This is not something one should have to do. Maybe it shouldn't be getting random CC 7 messages to begin with.
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azslow3
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 13:01:35
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☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2017/01/08 13:08:29
SilverBlueMedallion
John
To prevent the volume on the FM8 from being lowered goto the Event List View and insert a CC7 with level you want the FM8 to play at the very beginning. If for some reason you have other CC7s in the track and don't want them delete them. Once that has been done you can have reset controllers without problems.
and what if i am not starting playback at the very beginning?
This is not something one should have to do. Maybe it shouldn't be getting random CC 7 messages to begin with.
Sorry for repeating that, one more and for the last time from me: Sonar IS NOT injecting any MIDI, and it IS NOT changing synth parameter. It is you, your equipment or your installation which does that fancy things. At least there was no single prove that is usual for other users. Sonar has some inconvenient behavior with MIDI, which is the same for everyone. Just inconvenient, nothing serious. Sonar has some small bugs in MIDI, confirmed by other. All of them are triggered in quite special situations only. They are not in the list of your complains. Sonar does not support MIDI routing. Sonar does not really support MIDI FXes in VST format. That is in the future requests for long time, but that is not a bug. It is simple "not there yet". Using VST MIDI outputs is A WORKAROUND to somehow support VST MIDI FX. Far from perfect. Has several problems, including known and not mentioned by you. And it is known that using this workaround is a nightmare as soon as you change MIDI devices, re-route something, etc. Sonar also can not prepare food. It is possible to insert tons of plug-ins and start playback, that will drive CPU to the limit, it will produce a lot of heat, so theoretically cooking something. But it is pointless to complain that does not work perfectly. Sonar is DIRTY CHEAP for the value of third party software coming with it. If you sum even cheapest discount prices of AD2, Melodyne and all other included plug-ins, it is easy to prove you pay almost nothing for the DAW. It can not do EVERYTHING the way ANY PARTICULAR USER wants. There are other software packages, which provide other and sometimes better ways for particular workflows. They are also DIRTY CHEAP. Think about it other way: all your $$ spent for Sonar can at most cover ONE programmer for ONE day....
Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc. www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR, ReaCWP, AOSC and other accessibility tools
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John
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 13:31:23
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/01/08 16:23:32
SilverBlueMedailion
Sonar Does support MFX they helped create it. No they don't support MVST which is a Steinberg thing CW had MFX long before MVST came.
The reason to insert a CC7 at the beginning is to get your synth at the right volume at the beginning. This will be active through the track unless there is another CC7 encountered.
In a way I get the impression you know a small subset about MIDI but don't have a good overview of it.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 13:34:30
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John
SilverBlueMedailion
Sonar Does support MFX they helped create it. No they don't support MVST which is a Steinberg thing CW had MFX long before MVST came.
The reason to insert a CC7 at the beginning is to get your synth at the right volume at the beginning. This will be active through the track unless there is another CC7 encountered.
In a way I get the impression you know a small subset about MIDI but don't have a good overview of it.
Wrong. If nothing else is making it into my track, the CC 7 should just stay where I leave it in the softsynth. It only gets moved when: 1. Enable MIDI out is enabled on another VST 2. The input of the track recieving the CC 7 by error is set to "NONE" (which actually does OMNI but is mis-labeled - see this thread - http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-There-Anyway-To-Disable-Enable-MIDI-Out-When-Inserting-Softsynths-m3539913.aspx#3542538 this has nothing to do MFX, not sure why you are even going there. It is simply being routed from another VST.
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ampfixer
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 13:38:00
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/01/08 16:24:15
SBM isn't interested in any solution that involves a work around. He wants it to work the way he thinks it should work, full stop. This thread should be locked because none of our suggestions has been listened to. There have been genuine attempts to help but he simply isn't interested.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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John
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 13:40:30
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ampfixer
SBM isn't interested in any solution that involves a work around. He wants it to work the way he thinks it should work, full stop. This thread should be locked because none of our suggestions has been listened to. There have been genuine attempts to help but he simply isn't interested.
I see your point.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 13:46:41
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ampfixer
SBM isn't interested in any solution that involves a work around. He wants it to work the way he thinks it should work, full stop. This thread should be locked because none of our suggestions has been listened to. There have been genuine attempts to help but he simply isn't interested.
actually a SOLUTION isnt a workaround which interrupts workflow. A solution is FIXING the problem. I expect Cakewalk to lock this thread (and possibly delete it very soon anyway). And i don't want it to work the way "I THINK" it should work. Clever wording you put in there, to make it seem like I just want this the way I WANT IT,.... NOPE. I want it to work the way THE MANUAL says it should! Are you even following? http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3542552 You seem to be another person who is emotionally scared someone doesn't like Cakewalk. Shame.
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John
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 13:51:10
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I wonder if you are using channels?
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 13:56:37
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John
I wonder if you are using channels?
nope. I have like 45 tracks, so i just keep everything on Channel 1. shouldn't matter. Sorry, not trying to be short, but trust me on this, its not a user error. Its poor MIDI implementation. Even if everything is the same channel, doesn't matter. The input of a track shouldn't be accepting everything. Think about how much of a mess that is. That is just one of my many gripes though.
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John
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 14:03:15
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It can if the synths also use channels.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 14:18:20
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jsg
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 14:20:10
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SilverBlueMedallion
It is almost impossible for synthpop/electronic musician who wants to program complex MIDI data to drive their synths to do so using Cakewalk.
It is seriously problem after problem with this software when it comes to MIDI. For audio, this program is top notch, for MIDI, it might be the absolute worst. I am running into problem after problem (mostly bugs or poor implementation) ranging from bugs with MIDI routing, synths losing their settings, the step sequencer missing crucial elements, etc...
Go play with Propellerheads Reason if you want to see TOP NOTCH MIDI implementation.
Here are my threads over the past year with my frustrations:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/POSSIBLE-BUG-Selecting-A-Midi-Input-from-a-Synth-MIDI-Out-Enables-The-Virtual-Controller-m3540412.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Converting-Clip-To-Step-Sequencer-Is-Changing-Duration-Values-m3540362.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-There-Anyway-To-Disable-Enable-MIDI-Out-When-Inserting-Softsynths-m3539913.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/BROKENBUG-Synth-Parameters-Are-Not-Being-Retained-m3539657.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/How-To-Alternate-Panning-Per-Note-m3537382.aspx (the fact that Sonar doesn't have an easy implemention)
http://forum.cakewalk.com/MIDI-Routing-Problems-Galore-m3539322.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Step-Sequencer-Values-m3538354.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/BUG-Track-Template-Bus-Output-Randomness-m3537863.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Groove-Quantizing-Broken-m3535819.aspx (this one might be my problem)
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Step-Sequencer-Extending-A-Pattern-Can-You-Do-It-m3525206.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sonar-Needs-Solution-For-Duplicate-Notes-Better-Than-Undupecal-m3523354.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/CC-Data-Controlling-All-Synths-Only-Want-It-Controlling-The-Active-Synth-m3523720.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Inserting-Track-Templates-Mess-Up-My-Drum-Maps-m3519693.aspx
Its just problem after problem with the MIDI implementation. Really poor design with many flaws and bugs for which there is either no workaround or the workaround disrupts workflow.
I am currently giving Reason a proper 30-day trial run to see how it goes, but I've used it in my friend's studio before and it just simply WORKS.
I am sure I will catch heat from users on here who get emotionally worked up over a piece of software they didn't even write and/or don't have stock in... always happens.
I wish the community here would embrace all opinions and viewpoints, even ones that blatantly bash the product (if it deserves a bashing).
Thank You for listening.
There are MIDI bugs, no doubt, but I think you're overstating the case. I've produced, so far, 13 albums, 9 symphonies, 3 concerti and many short works using Sonar. I write large-scale works with many tracks, softsynths and I use tons of MIDI controller messages. If Sonar's MIDI implementation is as bad as you make it out to be, I would not be able to do the work I've done. Sometimes you simply have to understand the logic of the program and adjust to it. Every DAW has bugs and every DAW "forces" you to work a certain way, albeit with a certain amount of flexibility. Have you tried Digital Performer? It's a very good DAW; yet it too has some weird features and quirks, as all software, and all people, do. I am having no issues using controllers, softsynths, or routing using Sonar Platinum. Jerry www.jerrygerber.com
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 14:21:53
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jsg
SilverBlueMedallion
It is almost impossible for synthpop/electronic musician who wants to program complex MIDI data to drive their synths to do so using Cakewalk.
It is seriously problem after problem with this software when it comes to MIDI. For audio, this program is top notch, for MIDI, it might be the absolute worst. I am running into problem after problem (mostly bugs or poor implementation) ranging from bugs with MIDI routing, synths losing their settings, the step sequencer missing crucial elements, etc...
Go play with Propellerheads Reason if you want to see TOP NOTCH MIDI implementation.
Here are my threads over the past year with my frustrations:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/POSSIBLE-BUG-Selecting-A-Midi-Input-from-a-Synth-MIDI-Out-Enables-The-Virtual-Controller-m3540412.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Converting-Clip-To-Step-Sequencer-Is-Changing-Duration-Values-m3540362.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Is-There-Anyway-To-Disable-Enable-MIDI-Out-When-Inserting-Softsynths-m3539913.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/BROKENBUG-Synth-Parameters-Are-Not-Being-Retained-m3539657.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/How-To-Alternate-Panning-Per-Note-m3537382.aspx (the fact that Sonar doesn't have an easy implemention)
http://forum.cakewalk.com/MIDI-Routing-Problems-Galore-m3539322.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Step-Sequencer-Values-m3538354.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/BUG-Track-Template-Bus-Output-Randomness-m3537863.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Groove-Quantizing-Broken-m3535819.aspx (this one might be my problem)
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Step-Sequencer-Extending-A-Pattern-Can-You-Do-It-m3525206.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Sonar-Needs-Solution-For-Duplicate-Notes-Better-Than-Undupecal-m3523354.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/CC-Data-Controlling-All-Synths-Only-Want-It-Controlling-The-Active-Synth-m3523720.aspx
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Inserting-Track-Templates-Mess-Up-My-Drum-Maps-m3519693.aspx
Its just problem after problem with the MIDI implementation. Really poor design with many flaws and bugs for which there is either no workaround or the workaround disrupts workflow.
I am currently giving Reason a proper 30-day trial run to see how it goes, but I've used it in my friend's studio before and it just simply WORKS.
I am sure I will catch heat from users on here who get emotionally worked up over a piece of software they didn't even write and/or don't have stock in... always happens.
I wish the community here would embrace all opinions and viewpoints, even ones that blatantly bash the product (if it deserves a bashing).
Thank You for listening.
There are MIDI bugs, no doubt, but I think you're overstating the case. I've produced, so far, 13 albums, 9 symphonies, 3 concerti and many short works using Sonar. I write large-scale works with many tracks, softsynths and I use tons of MIDI controller messages. If Sonar's MIDI implementation is as bad as you make it out to be, I would not be able to do the work I've done. Sometimes you simply have to understand the logic of the program and adjust to it. Every DAW has bugs and every DAW "forces" you to work a certain way, albeit with a certain amount of flexibility. Have you tried Digital Performer? It's a very good DAW; yet it too has some weird features and quirks, as all software, and all people, do. I am having no issues using controllers, softsynths, or routing using Sonar Platinum.
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
that's not an argument. we dont necessarily work with MIDI the same way and if you read all my posts, you will see the problems I am having. Its more than just the product forcing me to work a certain way.
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John
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 15:06:24
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/01/08 16:25:35
I'm beginning to get a handle on the problem. It is not Sonar. I don't know how long you have been working with Sonar but in the old days there was no synth rack nor VSTis. Synths were either hardware or software and DXi if software. If you worked with MIDI in those days I think you would have a very different view. The first thing you should do is enable the synth property dialog when you insert a synth in the synth rack. With it you can set up how your synth works. How many outs for example and lots of other things including whether it should have MIDI out. If you make a selection of the parameters you want and they will apply to all other synths you insert you only have to do this once. However, I always have this dialog show because I may change something. Its a lot easier to do that change at that time then having to do it later. It also gets your project setup right from the beginning.
Also avoid simple instruments tracks. With them you loose a lot of control.
Following the above will eliminate all sorts of problems. CW has tried to make using a soft synth as easy as possible. But there are still a few things we have to set up ourselves.
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Anderton
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 15:26:41
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/01/08 16:25:56
azslow3
SilverBlueMedallion
John
To prevent the volume on the FM8 from being lowered goto the Event List View and insert a CC7 with level you want the FM8 to play at the very beginning. If for some reason you have other CC7s in the track and don't want them delete them. Once that has been done you can have reset controllers without problems.
and what if i am not starting playback at the very beginning?
This is not something one should have to do. Maybe it shouldn't be getting random CC 7 messages to begin with.
Sorry for repeating that, one more and for the last time from me:
Sonar IS NOT injecting any MIDI, and it IS NOT changing synth parameter. It is you, your equipment or your installation which does that fancy things. At least there was no single prove that is usual for other users.
Sonar has some inconvenient behavior with MIDI, which is the same for everyone. Just inconvenient, nothing serious.
Sonar has some small bugs in MIDI, confirmed by other. All of them are triggered in quite special situations only. They are not in the list of your complains.
Sonar does not support MIDI routing. Sonar does not really support MIDI FXes in VST format. That is in the future requests for long time, but that is not a bug. It is simple "not there yet". Using VST MIDI outputs is A WORKAROUND to somehow support VST MIDI FX. Far from perfect. Has several problems, including known and not mentioned by you. And it is known that using this workaround is a nightmare as soon as you change MIDI devices, re-route something, etc.
Sonar also can not prepare food. It is possible to insert tons of plug-ins and start playback, that will drive CPU to the limit, it will produce a lot of heat, so theoretically cooking something. But it is pointless to complain that does not work perfectly.
Sonar is DIRTY CHEAP for the value of third party software coming with it. If you sum even cheapest discount prices of AD2, Melodyne and all other included plug-ins, it is easy to prove you pay almost nothing for the DAW. It can not do EVERYTHING the way ANY PARTICULAR USER wants. There are other software packages, which provide other and sometimes better ways for particular workflows. They are also DIRTY CHEAP. Think about it other way: all your $$ spent for Sonar can at most cover ONE programmer for ONE day....
Azslow3, I truly appreciate that a) you know what you're talking about, and b) that you try to educate people whose minds are made up and not interested in facts. However, after my providing links showing that something SBM repeatedly calls a "bug" is a specific design decision (detailed in the Cakewalk blog concerning SONAR's VST3 implementation), and his refusal to educate himself about why that design decision was made, I have chosen to give up on him and instead, spend my time on people who benefit from the learning process rather than reject it. And I can't believe he said "and what if i am not starting playback at the very beginning? This is not something one should have to do." Well one doesn't have to, but he clearly knows so little about SONAR's basics he's not aware of "Zero controllers when play stops" and "Controller searchback before play starts," let alone when or how to use them. Yet he wants us to believe he's incapable of user error. People with a solipsistic mindset who demand constant attention and play victim get tiring. Perhaps we should take up a collection and buy him any software program he wants, with the stipulation that he participate only in that program's forum.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: Poor MIDI Implementation Is Going To Cause Me To Leave Cakewalk
2017/01/08 15:30:09
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John
I'm beginning to get a handle on the problem. It is not Sonar. I don't know how long you have been working with Sonar but in the old days there was no synth rack nor VSTis. Synths were either hardware or software and DXi if software. If you worked with MIDI in those days I think you would have a very different view. The first thing you should do is enable the synth property dialog when you insert a synth in the synth rack. With it you can set up how your synth works. How many outs for example and lots of other things including whether it should have MIDI out. If you make a selection of the parameters you want and they will apply to all other synths you insert you only have to do this once. However, I always have this dialog show because I may change something. Its a lot easier to do that change at that time then having to do it later. It also gets your project setup right from the beginning.
Also avoid simple instruments tracks. With them you loose a lot of control.
Following the above will eliminate all sorts of problems. CW has tried to make using a soft synth as easy as possible. But there are still a few things we have to set up ourselves.
The whole point of the option I am pointing to below was made so you DON'T have to be asked every time you insert a softsynth. The parameter doesn't work anyway (see my steps here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3542477) It DEFINATELY is Sonar. Sonar's button: "Enable MIDI Out" has ZERO effect! Why is it in the product?  Also this happens wether you use simple instrument tracks or not, so that point is moot. The product is BROKEN!
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