Helpful ReplySonar + Windows 10

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Sidroe
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 09:14:35 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jbow 2015/05/17 11:15:29
I get nervous when you say Windows update. I had to re-install Sonar and every plug I had a few times in the past. When I updated from Windows 8 to 8.1, thankfully, the only thing I ended up having to re-install was Addictive Drums. I'm hoping 10 will be painless.

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SilkTone
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 11:10:57 (permalink)
rontarrant
SilkTone
Right now it is impossible to get low latency on WinRT (aka "modern"/Metro/toy apps)

This likely won't be an issue for most. Besides, those using W-RT won't be able to upgrade for free anyway, sorry to say.

 
Just to come back to WinRT for a sec... Note that the latency issues I'm talking about is for all platforms supporting the new WinRT API. So this would be Windows Phone, Windows tablets as well as desktops running a WinRT app (from the Windows Store). So no matter how fast or expensive your hardware is, your are SOL when running a WinRT app. MS even removed the ability to adjust thread priorities, something absolutely required when writing a low latency audio app (and probably why they needed to remove exclusive mode from WASAPI under WinRT).
 
Of course, this doesn't affect real apps, just "modern"/metro/toy apps, but it might be worth keeping in mind if anyone was waiting for some music app to be ported.
#32
kitekrazy1
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 12:20:44 (permalink)
 If they ditch the Crapp store and allow us to download and install .exe I may upgrade sooner than later. I have a craptop running W8. I hate the Adobe Reader, Zinio Reader.  On a W7 system you download installers and it's much quicker than having the MS Crapp Store taking care of all of this.
 
http://www.fixedbyvonnie.com/2014/08/microsoft-windows-store-seriously-sucks/
 
You have to blame developers with this one.
http://www.aidanfinn.com/?p=14334
 
My fix for dealing with certain apps was to buy an iPad. Apple is going to miss Steve Ballmer.
post edited by kitekrazy1 - 2015/01/25 12:29:41
#33
SilkTone
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 13:53:07 (permalink)
kitekrazy1
My fix for dealing with certain apps was to buy an iPad. Apple is going to miss Steve Ballmer.



Haha, my fix was also to get an iPad Air 2 so that I can get a functional tablet. This after years of vowing never to get an Apple product. I paid $$$ for a Surface Pro 3 only to find out it makes a horrible tablet due to the state of the Windows Store. I was particularly interested in music apps (especially for composing music), but due to making it impossible to get low latency in a Windows Store app (no matter what hardware you are on), means there isn't even one high quality audio app.
 
I hope the Windows Store keeps failing so that they eventually just have to give up. I feel they are abandoning the desktop which is needed to run real applications like Sonar (they don't even have a clear developer roadmap for desktop apps anymore). Sonar would never work as a finger app. Maybe a Sonar companion app can run as a finger app, but nothing as complex as Sonar can ever be degraded to a finger app.
#34
microapp
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 14:40:22 (permalink)
kitekrazy1
 If they ditch the Crapp store and allow us to download and install .exe I may upgrade sooner than later. I have a craptop running W8. I hate the Adobe Reader, Zinio Reader.  On a W7 system you download installers and it's much quicker than having the MS Crapp Store taking care of all of this.
 
http://www.fixedbyvonnie.com/2014/08/microsoft-windows-store-seriously-sucks/
 
You have to blame developers with this one.
http://www.aidanfinn.com/?p=14334
 
My fix for dealing with certain apps was to buy an iPad. Apple is going to miss Steve Ballmer.


I am a little confused by your post.
I have never used the Windows store except once to get some Win 8.0 update. 
I have hundreds of apps running. THese were installed like any other app. download the exe, install it.
You do not need the Modern interface or the Windows store.

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#35
SilkTone
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 14:56:52 (permalink)
microapp
I am a little confused by your post.
I have never used the Windows store except once to get some Win 8.0 update. 
I have hundreds of apps running. THese were installed like any other app. download the exe, install it.
You do not need the Modern interface or the Windows store.



I think the point is more that MS is pushing to move all future applications to be "modern" apps, as opposed to being desktop apps. You can see this clearly by their lack of any new support for desktop development (Win32, Winforms, WPF etc no longer being actively developed for example), and no roadmap for desktop development. Most Windows devs don't even know what MS technology to use anymore to create a new desktop app with due to this lack of roadmap from MS.
 
Anyway, we are lamenting the sad state of this new direction MS is trying to push everyone into, not that you can't install or run desktop apps today because you certainly can.
#36
soundtweaker
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 15:01:59 (permalink)
The Windows 10 store will have Win32 applications also. It just makes more sense. Especially for security reasons.
Eventually all OSes will work this way.  It's the future, so might as well quit complaining and get used to it. 
#37
soundtweaker
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 15:16:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Jarsve 2015/01/26 17:29:40
SilkTone
rontarrant
SilkTone
Right now it is impossible to get low latency on WinRT (aka "modern"/Metro/toy apps)

This likely won't be an issue for most. Besides, those using W-RT won't be able to upgrade for free anyway, sorry to say.

 
Just to come back to WinRT for a sec... Note that the latency issues I'm talking about is for all platforms supporting the new WinRT API. So this would be Windows Phone, Windows tablets as well as desktops running a WinRT app (from the Windows Store). So no matter how fast or expensive your hardware is, your are SOL when running a WinRT app. MS even removed the ability to adjust thread priorities, something absolutely required when writing a low latency audio app (and probably why they needed to remove exclusive mode from WASAPI under WinRT).
 
Of course, this doesn't affect real apps, just "modern"/metro/toy apps, but it might be worth keeping in mind if anyone was waiting for some music app to be ported.




Windows is not abandoning the desktop. In fact if you watched the Windows 10 live demo, it's quite the opposite.
MS have a pro audio team working on low latencies. Not all the audio updates will make it into Windows 10 but will be included in updates sometime after that.
 
Also why would you want to run Sonar on a tablet anyway? It doesnt make any sense. Just get a deskop PC and be done with it.
#38
fireberd
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 15:46:39 (permalink)
I just installed the latest 9926 Preview Version Windows 10.  I did a clean install rather than an upgrade of the version I had installed, as nothing other than Sonar X3 was installed on it. 
 
After the Win 10 install, I downloaded the Command Center and then installed Sonar Platinum.  It installed without problems.  I didn't get any further, other than to start Sonar, and it initialized OK.   Later this week, I'll install the other applications and my Roland Studio-Capture and try some test recordings.

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#39
SilkTone
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 16:11:21 (permalink)
soundtweaker
Windows is not abandoning the desktop. In fact if you watched the Windows 10 live demo, it's quite the opposite.
MS have a pro audio team working on low latencies. Not all the audio updates will make it into Windows 10 but will be included in updates sometime after that.
 
Also why would you want to run Sonar on a tablet anyway? It doesnt make any sense. Just get a deskop PC and be done with it.

 
Well, you kinda missed some of my points I think. First of all, when I'm saying "if anyone was waiting for some music app to be ported", I don't mean Sonar in particular. Just the types of music apps you find plentiful in the Apple store. Forget about getting any of those in the Windows Store due to the WinRT API.
 
As for Sonar itself, some people go on as if "modern"/metro/toy apps are the future and everything should move there (go read the C9 forums for examples of this). I'm pointing out how absurd this is due to the fact that real applications like Sonar will never work when reduced to a finger app.
 
Also, the last few years MS has certainly angered many longtime Windows devs due to their focus on "modern"/metro/toy apps only, and lack of clear roadmap for real apps. You can find examples of this all over the internet. Compared to, say, 5 years ago, MS has become completely disconnected from Windows devs due to their severe case of Apple Envy.
 
What you saw in the Windows 10 demo was simply backpedaling due to the Windows 8 backlash, and trying to assure Windows devs that they still care about the desktop. However, today we still don't have a clear roadmap for Windows desktop development. There was some half-hearted attempt at a "roadmap" in this WPF blog a while ago. When you read "Work on improving WPF has never really stopped", and then they list some minor improvements to prove their point, you know it's on life support.
 
As for getting desktop apps via the Windows Store, yes that can be good and I agree we are all moving to such a model for various reasons, but that wasn't my point. It was about the WinRT API specifically, which is supposed to be the future of Windows development.
#40
denverdrummer
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 18:07:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Jarsve 2015/01/26 17:35:06
Um, I'm not sure what you're talking about.  First off, Windows RT for all intents and purposes is dead.  This is mainly because Intel finally got around to creating decent low voltage processors that could compete well with the ARM processors.  The new generation of Intel Atom processors have done very well in terms of performance and battery life, and can run the x86/x64 code.
 
Just because of the newer API doesn't mean their getting rid of the desktop.  Quite the contrary infact the first version of office for RT ran on the desktop not in metro.  The idea for the newer API is so that there is a common code source so they can offer apps that will run on a tablet or desktop or whatever.
 
The Surface Pro 3 was the hottest selling device of 2014, with an update due out in 2015, and it was the first Surface devce to really take a chunk out of the iPad and Mac Book air market.  It's a full i5 or i7 device, and the bakers have been testing Sonar with it.  That doesn't mean that it's not going to work with your desktop/workstation computer, it's simply that the market is changing.  Think of the Surface Pro 3 as a Toyota Prius, where the standard Desktop is a Toyota Tundra.  They are both designed to move people and things to one pace or another, but if you need to put on a tow hitch, you're not going to do that on the Prius.
 
developers are going to look at the Windows store, because it's simple advertisement.  How much work did Sonar have to do in their past to advertise their product, going to a webpage, and manage google search.  Now someone with a Windows 8 tablet, laptop or desktop can go search for DAW or recording software, and they will see a link to Sonar.  Right now it just has a link to the Cakewalk page, but if CW can offer the download direct from MS and it's a win.  Why do you think the bakers went to so much trouble getting Sonar on Steam?
 
This is the new marketing model for computer software, like it or not.

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#41
Paul P
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/25 18:53:23 (permalink)
 
Sounds like we may end up going back to the days of unix on Sun workstations and the like.  We needed them then because windows was a toy, and we'll need them again now that windows is going back to being a toy.
 

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#42
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 08:18:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Jarsve 2015/01/26 17:36:47
SilkTone
rontarrant
SilkTone
Right now it is impossible to get low latency on WinRT (aka "modern"/Metro/toy apps)

This likely won't be an issue for most. Besides, those using W-RT won't be able to upgrade for free anyway, sorry to say.

 
Just to come back to WinRT for a sec... Note that the latency issues I'm talking about is for all platforms supporting the new WinRT API. So this would be Windows Phone, Windows tablets as well as desktops running a WinRT app (from the Windows Store). So no matter how fast or expensive your hardware is, your are SOL when running a WinRT app. MS even removed the ability to adjust thread priorities, something absolutely required when writing a low latency audio app (and probably why they needed to remove exclusive mode from WASAPI under WinRT).
 
Of course, this doesn't affect real apps, just "modern"/metro/toy apps, but it might be worth keeping in mind if anyone was waiting for some music app to be ported.




I had a meeting with the MS audio team at NAMM. From what I understand there may still be more more to come for WinRT so it might not be blocked for low latency apps. I will check back on this issue however.
We are not immediately concerned with WinRT since SONAR is a desktop app but it would be good to know for the future. Other than that there are some potentially interesting developments and I'm hoping the Media foundation limitations/bugs are resolved.
 
 

Noel Borthwick
Senior Manager Audio Core, BandLab
My Blog, Twitter, BandLab Profile
#43
Vas
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 10:21:18 (permalink)
twoifbysea
... and you can quote me on that. I may be wrong but you may still quote me.




Thanks, had a good laugh this morning here in Florida.
 
Oh, yes you can quote me if you like and why would you I don’t’
care but you can however don’t forget the quotation marks.
post edited by Vas - 2015/01/26 10:31:24

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#44
denverdrummer
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 13:11:54 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
SilkTone
rontarrant
SilkTone
Right now it is impossible to get low latency on WinRT (aka "modern"/Metro/toy apps)

This likely won't be an issue for most. Besides, those using W-RT won't be able to upgrade for free anyway, sorry to say.

 
Just to come back to WinRT for a sec... Note that the latency issues I'm talking about is for all platforms supporting the new WinRT API. So this would be Windows Phone, Windows tablets as well as desktops running a WinRT app (from the Windows Store). So no matter how fast or expensive your hardware is, your are SOL when running a WinRT app. MS even removed the ability to adjust thread priorities, something absolutely required when writing a low latency audio app (and probably why they needed to remove exclusive mode from WASAPI under WinRT).
 
Of course, this doesn't affect real apps, just "modern"/metro/toy apps, but it might be worth keeping in mind if anyone was waiting for some music app to be ported.




I had a meeting with the MS audio team at NAMM. From what I understand there may still be more more to come for WinRT so it might not be blocked for low latency apps. I will check back on this issue however.
We are not immediately concerned with WinRT since SONAR is a desktop app but it would be good to know for the future. Other than that there are some potentially interesting developments and I'm hoping the Media foundation limitations/bugs are resolved.
 
 




Interesting, I had assumed RT was dead, because most of the vendors including Microsoft didn't release 3rd generation ARM versions of windows tablets.  Seems like most everything is using Intel Atom.

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#45
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 13:13:59 (permalink)
When I said WinRT I was referring to the API for building "modern" windows apps, aka windows store apps. It doesn't mean that these apps have to run on ARM.

Noel Borthwick
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#46
denverdrummer
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 14:09:44 (permalink)
OK, yes that API is still valid, and that's going to be the future of windows 10, having what they call "tablet mode" and "desktop mode" to make it more cohesive than Windows 8 when it was first introduced.
 
Windows RT was the distribution of Windows 8 that was specifically written and compiled for ARM processors like the Surface 1 and Surface 2 (the ones that had the NVidia Tegra processors), there were a few others as well from ASUS and Dell.  I believe all of the other vendors have dropped Windows RT and have gone to regular Windows with Intel processors.  When Microsoft released the Surface Pro 3, but no third generation Windows RT tablet, the trades were saying it was the biggest indication of the death of WindowsRT as a released product. .  

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#47
Vas
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 16:22:31 (permalink)
Question: Are multi-touch features the same in Desktop as they are in Metro?

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#48
denverdrummer
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 17:26:38 (permalink)
The answer is mixed.  10 point touch is universal to desktop and metro, but there are specific guesture API to metro that's not on desktop.  For example a swipe down from the top of the screen will close the whole desktop, or an individual metro app, but will not close individual desktop apps.  Also a quick right to left swipe on the left hand portion of the touch screen will show available apps but shows all apps running in desktop as one entity.
 
You can still use Alt+Tab to cycle through all running applications, but that is a legacy function.  Desktop apps would have to write to the new API to utilize those gestures.
 

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#49
ØSkald
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 17:42:23 (permalink)
The swipe down to close apps is universal now in Windows 10, swiping inn from the left enters "app switch?" mode. You get all programs and apps up like alt tab. So desktop programs act as apps now.
#50
Blades
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 17:47:23 (permalink)
So - I like to live on the edge...
 
I installed the Tech Preview on my main computer (against all advice :)).  Everything seemed to go fine.  I went from Win8.1 to the Win10 TechPreview.  All my exisiting drivers and applications worked except one - a very important one, unfortunately: My Edirol PCR-800.
 
It had Win 8.1 drivers, but under 10, it just fails.  I tried every way I know to get this to work, but no matter what, it shows up as an unknown device (named PCR) in the device manager.
 
This particular device was picky in the 8.0 to 8.1 change, where the 8.0 driver didn't work in 8.1, so I have no doubt that they will have to update it for 10 before it will work.  It's interesting what fails about this:
 
When you install the driver, it asks that you have the USB unplugged, then it does part of its installation, then asks you to plug it in.  There is an interim open window that waits for you to do this, which never gets a highlighted "next" button because as far as it's concerned, you never plugged it in, even though the device manager shows its presence.  Also, during this exchange, when you plug the KB in, the lights com on, then dim at about 7 seconds, then turn off and it doesn't do anything until you either power on/off or remove and re-plug the USB.  When I built the new 8.1 installation, it worked completely normally.
 
Seems like some simple setting in a file somewhere rather than some actual new driver code based on the fact that every other device on the system.
 
If anyone has any ideas on how to fix this, I'd like to know them.  In the meantime, I've rebuilt on a different drive (SSD) which was in need of being done anyway (which is why I wasn't shy to give 10 a shot "live"), but if I could get this working under 10 before Eiderol/Roland gets around to fixing this, it would be great.
 
Thoughts?

Blades
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#51
denverdrummer
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 18:26:59 (permalink)
Jarsve
The swipe down to close apps is universal now in Windows 10, swiping inn from the left enters "app switch?" mode. You get all programs and apps up like alt tab. So desktop programs act as apps now.




That's great news, it should get rid of some of the disjointed feeling that 8 had when it first came out.  8.1 made some big improvements, but this is even better.  I'm hoping that 10 will be as well received as Windows 7 and XP were.

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#52
SilkTone
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 19:22:01 (permalink)
Yes I was also talking about the WinRT API (for all hardware), not Windows RT (Windows build for ARM only) which is a dead horse. The WinRT API is supposed to be the feature for both desktop and "modern" apps. However I'm pointing out that it has a very music-unfriendly foundation as MS ripped out things that are required for low latency audio. We no longer have the ability to change thread priorities. All low-latency audio APIs have been removed, leaving only WASAPI shared mode.
 
Also, the async/await pattern permeates the WinRT API. It doesn't work with traditional thread locking primitives (due to that it now results in a compiler error if you mix the two). Async/await also causes thread priority inversion, which is most likely why they removed all ability to change thread priorities, and hence had to remove WASAPI exclusive mode also [read: It isn't going to be easy to fix it after the fact].
 
I while ago I did an extensive set of micro benchmarking showing how async/await kills performance. I first realized there was a problem when I tried to port a real audio application to a "modern"/metro/toy app. Yet if you read Windows dev blogs etc people are going gaga over async/await.
 
It is somewhat concerning to me.
#53
John T
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 20:21:11 (permalink)
RT always seemed a bit of a blind alley to me. I bet it's not going to have much of a life-span, even in API form.

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#54
Vas
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 22:14:12 (permalink)
Thanks for clarifying the desktop vs Metro question.
Essentially the most important part, the multi-touch is the same for both.
Great. Or not so great if I missed something important.
 
So there are no obstacles for iPad apps to be ported to Windows and run as VST's and VSTi's or standalone. 
 
I would have a vertical monitor and a multi-touch nearly flat monitor on the desk and use it to play with the  multi-touch DAW, VST, VSTi and standalone applications. And yes the mouse will be ready to use whenever it is more efficient to do so. The day this will happen is not that far away.
 
 

Sonar Platinum, S1 3, FL Studio 12, Cubase 7.5, Komplete 8, Waves Gold, Melodyne Studio 4, Windows 10 - 64bit, GIGABYTE GA-X58A-UD3R Rev 2, Intel Xeon W3690, 12GB RAM, 23" 10-touch ViewSonic and iPad Air as midi controller, iConnectMIDI2+, FireBox, Shuttle Pro2
#55
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 22:22:47 (permalink)
Blades
Seems like some simple setting in a file somewhere rather than some actual new driver code based on the fact that every other device on the system.
 
If anyone has any ideas on how to fix this, I'd like to know them.  In the meantime, I've rebuilt on a different drive (SSD) which was in need of being done anyway (which is why I wasn't shy to give 10 a shot "live"), but if I could get this working under 10 before Eiderol/Roland gets around to fixing this, it would be great.
 
Thoughts?



If I were to guess, the edirol drivers have a hardcoded windows version check and fail to install properly on a higher version. Most of the Roland drivers have this flawed pattern which requires them to be rebuilt before they work on a new OS, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is the reason why it fails to install. There might be a way to hack the version compatibility check but I don't know how. Maybe there is some way to install a driver in Win10 and make it think the OS is Win 8 rather than Win10 to work around this check...

Noel Borthwick
Senior Manager Audio Core, BandLab
My Blog, Twitter, BandLab Profile
#56
StarTekh
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/26 22:50:49 (permalink)
Edit the line where you see Windows driver singing. This is what we did to get the Asus thunderbolt landed on server 2012 !
#57
Blades
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/27 21:08:29 (permalink)

Edit the line where you see Windows driver singing

Where would I find such a line?  Are we talking about in an inf file or something like a dll?
These are the files that are in the 64bit folder:
rdcl1027.dll
rdcp1027.cpl
rddp1027.exe
rddrvinf.dat
rdid1027.cat
rdif1027.inf
rduninst.dat
rdwm1027.sys
setup.dat
 
I've looked at each of these files (just in notepad++) and I don't see anything obviously about "driver signing" and some of them are obviously not just text files, so I wouldn't know what to even look for or how to edit them, short of using a hex editor to get into their details.
 
Thoughts?

Blades
www.blades.technology  - Technology Info and Tutorials for Music and Web
#58
StarTekh
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/28 13:17:01 (permalink)
Blades : I will talk to the tech that did the driver edit, I'm lead build/support on Thunderbolt , so I specked the system and devices. In turm you can try this :
 
Do the following:

1. start > search > cmd.exe (right click run as admin)

2. type the following

bcdedit.exe –set loadoptions DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS

and then type

bcdedit.exe –set TESTSIGNING ON

You should get completion prompts after typing each. Once complete, restart.
#59
StarTekh
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/28 14:14:12 (permalink)
Blades: talked to tech he suggested you try  : compatibility mode first? That always worked for my .exes... he gave me this link to.... :   http://blogs.technet.com/b/bernhard_frank/archive/2010/03/15/how-to-install-orca-exe-from-the-windows-installer-development-tools.aspx
 
hope you sort it out !
#60
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