Helpful ReplySonar + Windows 10

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ØSkald
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/28 16:59:33 (permalink)
When talking about RT and pads it seems that a lot of us forget about Cakewalk own small touch DAW Music Creator. I bought it today to test it on my Surface Pro with Windows 10.
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Music-Creator/
#61
SONARtist
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/28 18:04:36 (permalink)
Jarsve
When talking about RT and pads it seems that a lot of us forget about Cakewalk own small touch DAW Music Creator. I bought it today to test it on my Surface Pro with Windows 10.
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Music-Creator/


Hi Jarsve, I'd be very interested to know how you get on.  I have an i7 SurfPro running on Win8.1 currently but will uprade soon ...

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#62
cparmerlee
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/28 20:06:51 (permalink)
jbraner
<to voice assistant>
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<me>
"Wow - what a cool upgrade"



<to voice assistant>
"Mix that project using Platinum, pronto"
 
<voice assistant>
"Preparing mix tape of Tonto's platinum hits."

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#63
Marcus Curtis
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/28 20:46:59 (permalink)
I have been reading about windows 10. It seems that there are some interesting changes. I guess they are making a new browser. It will be called Spartan. I can't help but wonder if it is just a rebranding of Internet Explorer. The start button is back but I hope it is better then the one currently in Windows 8. They will be giving it away for free for 1 year. It will be free for all windows 7 and windows 8, 8.1 users.
 
I am thinking about testing this on one of my old windows 7 machines.
 
The thing that I found most amazing is the hololens reveal. It would be great if the bakers worked with that technology. If you though touch was revolutionary then hold on to your hat because this will change everything. It would be so cool to operate Sonar using this hololens technology.
 
I know that may be a few years away but it is still pretty cool. Much better then just locating my car.

http://www.marcuscurtismusic.com/  

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#64
Blades
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/28 22:09:51 (permalink)
Hey StarTekh - I'll take a look at this next I'm in my "room"!  I'm interested to see what these things do, especially the first one, which seems like it would allow me to bypass checks.  I'll try them and post back here with the results.

Blades
www.blades.technology  - Technology Info and Tutorials for Music and Web
#65
Paul P
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/28 23:31:21 (permalink)
Marcus Curtis
The thing that I found most amazing is the hololens reveal. It would be great if the bakers worked with that technology. If you though touch was revolutionary then hold on to your hat because this will change everything. It would be so cool to operate Sonar using this hololens technology.



While such things look interesting, can you imagine holding your arms up for hours at a time ?  I much prefer having my forearms flat on my desktop and use a lowish profile keyboard and the flattest mouse I could find.  I can easily spend eight hours without moving much.  A comfortable chair is a must !
 
Touch also requires you to keep your arms in the air if you don't want to activate everything by accident (on big low screens).  Not for me.
 

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#66
Marcus Curtis
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/29 06:17:58 (permalink)
Paul P
Marcus Curtis
The thing that I found most amazing is the hololens reveal. It would be great if the bakers worked with that technology. If you though touch was revolutionary then hold on to your hat because this will change everything. It would be so cool to operate Sonar using this hololens technology.



While such things look interesting, can you imagine holding your arms up for hours at a time ?  I much prefer having my forearms flat on my desktop and use a lowish profile keyboard and the flattest mouse I could find.  I can easily spend eight hours without moving much.  A comfortable chair is a must !
 
Touch also requires you to keep your arms in the air if you don't want to activate everything by accident (on big low screens).  Not for me.
 


You raise a good point. I suppose everyone has their preference. Some people probably won't like the hololens technology. The first time I saw it I thought of cakewalk. I think it would be great to have a 3D representation of Sonar that is not confined to a computer screen. Imagine using Sonar like Tony Stark from Iron Man. 
 
I am use to playing guitar for hours on end and moving around while I play. I don't think this will be much different. At least I will get my exercise for the day. I don't know everything that this new technology has to offer, but I can't help but wonder how the bakers would take advantage of something like this. I think it will be exciting to watch.
 
but like I said, this is probably a few years away.

http://www.marcuscurtismusic.com/  

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#67
Blades
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/30 21:27:12 (permalink)
Well - I tried the bcdedit commands and rebooted and attempted to install the PCR-800 again to no avail.  It did the same thing as before.  But thanks for the idea.
 
As for the Orca thing, I'm not sure that's going to get me any further down the line because I think the problem is as much in the installer as it is in the drivers themselves in this case.  Since the device is "recognized" by Windows after the driver is installed (goes away and comes back in the device manager when unplugged and replugged and shows as PCR, not unknown device), and it doesn't simply work by using the inf file install option, there must be some Windows magic performed in that interim detection step that the exe installer does.
 
I'm certainly open to other ideas as to how to make this work.  My 8.1 re-install is running fine on my SSD in the meantime, and I've spent the time to get everything fully installed and configured over there (which of course performs better because it's on an SSD and because it's a nice clean install), but I'd like to get it working on the "old" installation so that I could then upgrade the SSD partition to the Windows 10 "trial" to get to use it regularly.
 
Thanks again for the thoughts.

Blades
www.blades.technology  - Technology Info and Tutorials for Music and Web
#68
soundtweaker
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/30 23:12:14 (permalink)
Marcus Curtis
I have been reading about windows 10. It seems that there are some interesting changes. I guess they are making a new browser. It will be called Spartan. I can't help but wonder if it is just a rebranding of Internet Explorer. The start button is back but I hope it is better then the one currently in Windows 8. They will be giving it away for free for 1 year. It will be free for all windows 7 and windows 8, 8.1 users.
 
I am thinking about testing this on one of my old windows 7 machines.
 
The thing that I found most amazing is the hololens reveal. It would be great if the bakers worked with that technology. If you though touch was revolutionary then hold on to your hat because this will change everything. It would be so cool to operate Sonar using this hololens technology.
 
I know that may be a few years away but it is still pretty cool. Much better then just locating my car.


Spartan is still only the code name. It may be called something else by release time. It's not a rebranding of IE. So far its screaming fast and the scrolling is butter smooth.
#69
stratman70
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/30 23:18:09 (permalink)
No offense meant-But how could someone possibly "buy" a new version of windows as soon as it's released?
If this is due to business I still wouldn't want Sonar near a new windows right off the bat. But that's just me I guess.
I wait , at least for a few months of updates, or even service pack 1.
 

 
 
#70
jolson88
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/31 00:48:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby soundtweaker 2015/01/31 00:57:24
SilkTone
Yes I was also talking about the WinRT API (for all hardware), not Windows RT (Windows build for ARM only) which is a dead horse. The WinRT API is supposed to be the feature for both desktop and "modern" apps. However I'm pointing out that it has a very music-unfriendly foundation as MS ripped out things that are required for low latency audio. We no longer have the ability to change thread priorities. All low-latency audio APIs have been removed, leaving only WASAPI shared mode.
 
Also, the async/await pattern permeates the WinRT API. It doesn't work with traditional thread locking primitives (due to that it now results in a compiler error if you mix the two). Async/await also causes thread priority inversion, which is most likely why they removed all ability to change thread priorities, and hence had to remove WASAPI exclusive mode also [read: It isn't going to be easy to fix it after the fact].
 
I while ago I did an extensive set of micro benchmarking showing how async/await kills performance. I first realized there was a problem when I tried to port a real audio application to a "modern"/metro/toy app. Yet if you read Windows dev blogs etc people are going gaga over async/await.
 
It is somewhat concerning to me.




Hey SillkTone! As Noel mentions, our team has been engaged with Cakewalk folks (including Noel) about our Windows 10 enhancements. We are hoping to talk about this in much more detail at this year's //build conference. We definitely are aware that low latency is very important in this area. As Pete Brown and I mentioned in our talk at //build last year (something like "Sequencers, Synthesizers, and Software Oh My!"), this is an area that we recognize we dropped the ball in Windows 8 and Windows 8.1.
 
To succeed in getting new apps on all our platforms, we _have_ to solve this problem. We will be pushing the ball forward in Windows 10 and continuing to push push push in future updates as well. This will be an ongoing focus of our audio team as we strive to get it lower and lower and solve the problem in a way that is satisfactory for running apps in a shared multitasking environment. 
 
Can you shoot me an email at jasolson AT microsoft DOT com? I would _love_ to connect you with the PM on our team driving our efforts in this space so we can make sure your voice is heard directly on the team. Especially given your experience in trying to port apps, we really want to hear more of the frustrations you ran into. And we definitely want to hear about your benchmarking with WinRT APIs to ensure future plans on our end don't succumb to the same issue. As WinRT is basically COM + Metadata, and COM can be a very chatty protocol if not careful, we will need to stay on top of that. 
 
Thanks for your effort in the past SilkTone! I only wish we would have had our ears to the ground with Windows 8 and Windows 8.1. There's a lot of work for us to do to repair these issues, which is one of the reasons I'm so excited we have an entire team now dedicated to "Media Creation" and can focus on issues like audio latency and MIDI :). 
#71
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/31 09:24:38 (permalink)
Jason its really great that you folks are engaging with users at this level! We're definitely seeing a renewed focus on issues important to media creation from Microsoft over the last year and we are very optimistic about the new direction.
For the benefit of our users there are quite a few Microsoft employees who are SONAR and other DAW users so they have good reasons to make sure Windows serves us well :)
 
thank you,
Noel

Noel Borthwick
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#72
gswitz
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/31 09:41:28 (permalink)
Jason, I'm totally impressed that you posted your email address to the forum! This has been my experience with all Microsoft employees I have known. They have all been 'evangelists' in their own right. They have always been helpful and knowledgeable. You are obviously just as open and you get my praise for it.
 
I'm wondering if Windows has any plans to support 'class compliant' interfaces. I don't know if there's a benefit for users of efficient asio drivers, but I'm always interested in open standards and what they can do to make all development cheaper. Could I use my RME UCX to make a multi-track recording on a Windows Phone in the future?
 
Also, so you are aware, I use 'Presentation Mode' when recording. Would it be possible to build in low latency adjustments to 'Presentation Mode'?

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#73
SilkTone
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/01/31 11:26:31 (permalink)
Jason, thanks for dropping in! I will write up a detailed email and send it later today or tomorrow. I am glad to hear there are efforts to address these issues.
#74
mrdrwest
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/03/27 20:01:38 (permalink)
Why get the jitters? If you're running mission critical software that has not been officially announced to support Windows 10, then hold off from upgrading until it is.
#75
mrdrwest
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/03/27 20:05:05 (permalink)
Why get the jitters? If you're running mission critical software that has not been officially announced to support Windows 10, then hold off from upgrading until it is.
 
#76
John T
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/03/27 21:10:09 (permalink)
Arise, dead thread, arise!
 
Since this conversation, MS have made a really interesting, though slightly obscure, buried in a technical presentation, announcement about improved low latency operation in Windows 10.

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#77
Blades
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/05/16 18:42:42 (permalink)
I have now upgraded my office system to the tech preview - of course, I'm not running Sonar or other music apps there, but I can say that so ar with the latest 10074 build, it's running smooth as silk as an in=place upgrade from 8.1.
 
Of course I know that it is recommended not to do this, but I am ok with the risk, since IT is my game anyway, and I have a fully functional Surface and other systems around that run just fine.  I also have a VM that I could load up anywhere that is running the apps I need, if I had to go that route.
 
Now I wait until the Editor/Roland drivers for the PCR-800 come out.  It's the only thing on my music system that didn't like Windows 10 at the time of the January build.  Maybe it's changed since then, but I'd rather not take the chance, as that pcr-800 has no wall wart (here) and doesn't even get power from USB without the right driver, so I can't even use it as a regular midi device with a different midi interface, which I have - and works under 10.
 
I wonder why the Roland driver is SO particular about not working, when even devices like the Line6 UX2 and Layla 3G are working under Windows 10 just fine with Windows 7/8 drivers.

Blades
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#78
fireberd
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/05/17 09:15:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cparmerlee 2015/05/17 13:28:43
I have the 10074 version installed.  Compared to Windows 7 or 8.1 that are on the same PC (it is triple boot 7/8.1/10 each on a separate hard drive) it is slow.  On line apps that are almost instantaneous on 8.1 take minutes to load.  Updates fail the first time the install is attempted, takes two or more attempts to install.  I have nothing extra installed on my Win 10 other than Sonar (for testing) and the driver for my Roland Studio-Capture (and it works).   I realize Win 10 is still "beta" but these are basic functions, not functionality that may be added in the RTM version.

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#79
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/05/17 17:57:23 (permalink)
This is quite normal behaviour for a preview release, I find these releases a waste of time unless you need to develop on this platform. Personally I wait until at least 6 to 12 months from final release before I install any new OS.
#80
dana martin
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 16:21:25 (permalink)
Sticking with X2...haven't really seen anything that would compel me to upgrade. I was a little concerned that being an older version it might gag on Win 10.
#81
LaszloZoltan
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 17:16:15 (permalink)
it's an operating system....if things work as they should, then why bother with the risk, headache and heartbreak ? Besides, I don't have the time to waste
#82
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 18:45:49 (permalink)
LaszloZoltan
it's an operating system....if things work as they should, then why bother with the risk, headache and heartbreak ? Besides, I don't have the time to waste


Support (such as security updates within windows update) will last longer than your current Windows version. So might as well take it up. There will probably be stability and performance benefits as well but I doubt that they will mature until at least six months after release. I will leave the upgrade as long as I possibly can however within the allocated year.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/06/10 18:51:57

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#83
cparmerlee
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 19:47:19 (permalink)
There is a reason Windows 10 is free.  Software in the new millennium tends to evolve toward marketing schemes that entrap the user into spending additional money, often through an ongoing subscription.  Of course, the polite term is "monetizing".  I haven't looked at WIn10 enough to see how heavy this factor is.  It was bad enough at Win 8 with all those tiles, with every link seemingly taking you back to the Microsoft store.
 
It isn't just Windows.  You see the same thing on Android and most other software.
 
So there really is a question whether there is really anything for the user in Win10 or is this just a new delivery model that Microsoft intends to use to put you on various subscription streams sooner or later.

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#84
John T
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 20:15:32 (permalink)
There's been a lot of speculation about that, and MS addressed it a few days ago. I can't remember where I saw this, possibly on the WinBeta site, but one of their guys has said they aren't planning a subscription for the OS.
 
What I think is fairly likely is that the key Office apps are going to have some kind of subscription option in the not-too-distant future. You can see that in the strenuous - and impressive - efforts they've put into making the on-line versions match the installed versions for features and performance. The browser version of Word has become kind of astonishing, really. I can't see that they're building that just out of the goodness of their hearts.

But Microsoft hasn't made its real money from end-user monetisation since the 80s. They make money on OEM bundling of the OS with new computers, and Enterprise licenses. And those versions are remaining non-free.

I don't think it's all that cynical a move myself; I think it was just inevitable after Apple did it for both OSX and iOS. And then there's Android on phones and Chrome on netbook-type things. The idea of going to a shop and handing over cash for an OS already seems kind of archaic.
post edited by John T - 2015/06/10 20:22:59

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#85
cparmerlee
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 20:32:34 (permalink)
John T
There's been a lot of speculation about that, and MS addressed it a few days ago. I can't remember where I saw this, possibly on the WinBeta site, but one of their guys has said they aren't planning a subscription for the OS.
 



Maybe not for the OS as a whole.  But Windows 8.1 is a stable platform (more of less).  It is not as if Microsoft considers 8.1 such a monumental blunder that they have no choice but to fix it for free by giving away the next complete version of the OS.
 
The reason they are giving away 10 is to get as many people as possible onto a platform they will have optimized for monetizing.  That doesn't mean they have to charge a monthly fee for the OS.  There are other ways to use the OS to generate revenue.  For example, they can do as players like Avast do by offering free basic versions of services, but then constantly harassing the user with marginally ethical schemes the try to trick them into paying for an upgrade.
 
I am not saying I have seen Microsoft do this yet, but it seems abundantly clear that is why they want tens of millions of users to be living int he Win 10 ecosystem.
 
That doesn't mean that Win10 is a bad thing per se.  it just means that users must be very vigilant because their software suppliers may have interests directly opposed to the users' interests.

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#86
John T
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 20:37:39 (permalink)
Well, I'd say that they've optimised for monetisation since the year dot. There's nothing new on that score.

http://johntatlockaudio.com/
Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
#87
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 20:38:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby John T 2015/06/10 21:08:16
John T
 
I don't think it's all that cynical a move myself; I think it was just inevitable after Apple did it for both OSX and iOS. And then there's Android on phones and Chrome on netbook-type things. The idea of going to a shop and handing over cash for an OS already seems kind of archaic.



Increasing market share sells other applications, notably server side and cloud based facilities with Microsoft. They are shifting towards tablet computing and they are obviously taking a different approach after a false start with Windows 8. I think their vision is that adopting Windows 10 might want you to eventually adopt Windows on tablet PC's and phones.

They appear to be adopting a more open source mentality just like Cakewalk has done under Platinum, that is directly listen to users rather than keep discussions internal. MS traditionally have kept most things under wraps with their MVP programme, it looks like the barriers have been lifted. It seems apparent that MS and Cakewalk recognises that in order to keep your customers you need to engage with them nowadays, it also helps improve their software. It's a lot more than a charm offensive, it's a philosophy that has it's roots in agile development. They are attempting to sell you a lot more than just a product, and are attempting to plough your feedback straight back into making a better product.

This is probably something that would have been difficult to do years back, power users weren't as easily accessible or frequent (and probably didn't communicate half as well as they do nowadays).
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/06/10 20:45:39

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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charlyg
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 20:40:02 (permalink)
8 was the big blunder. 8.1 seemed stable, and useable to me.

 
 
#89
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Sonar + Windows 10 2015/06/10 20:50:54 (permalink)
charlyg
8 was the big blunder. 8.1 seemed stable, and useable to me.



I agree but it didn't really take much market share away from Apples and android tablet/phone market, which is what they were setting out to achieve. When MS are talking about improving Windows 10 it's pretty obvious (at least to me) where their main focus is.... Their big ultimate plan though is one OS to rule them all (which of course is Linux ).

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
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