Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1

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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/01 01:50:50 (permalink)
FastBikerBoy


This thread should get entertaining now sound quality of one DAW v another has been mentioned.... 


move over and give me some of that popcorn.
#91
SEVerstraten
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/01 01:55:01 (permalink)
Let me guess...

  1. Some rambling back and forth about sound quality
  2. Someone doing some null tests
  3. Differences still heard
  4. Long and the short of it:  Pan Laws or Interleaving?


I think I summed it up quite nicely. Saves another 20+ pages of fred.

Can I have my becan now? 


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#92
Linear Phase
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/01 02:07:01 (permalink)
Well I hear a difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ableton = Sounds grey and muddy = bad

Renoise = Sounds dark and dirty = good

Cubase = Sounds clean and happy = acceptable major label

Pro-Tools = Sounds sterile and hospital = acceptable major label, not my fav sound

Logic = Sound pristine = one of the best sounding daws around

Reaper = Sounds good at first, upon further examination is a lot closer to audacity = sounds bad

Sonar = Reminds me of the sound of Logic, and Cubase, does not sound hospitalized like Pro-Tools = Sounds great

Orion, Mulab, Podium, Samplitube = All on the same level = very close to Logic, Cubase, and Sonar.


Studio One...  dunno, never tried it,,,




EDIT = No...  I have no scientific evidence



Edit again =  I just can't help it.  I really do hear a difference.  Maybe it is all psychological....   Too bad Ableton doesn't have support for 64bit yet...  I've been building drum kits for a few hours now, and my ears are used to Renoise and Sonar, cause I rewire...   otherwise, I check out some sounds in Live..  but I can't be bothered...

too many lasers...






Sonar = audio editing ninja of a music software!

#93
Psychobillybob
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/01 10:45:29 (permalink)
Logic on a Mac through Apogee is incredible sounding...but then so is Sonar through Lynx on a PC...different but pleasant...

Honestly the Logic stuff I have done on an old Powerbook through a duet was amazing...very musical sounding...just did not enjoy the GUI or the menus...the plug-ins were quite good though...

Everything before the space between the ears is simply electrons pushing and shoving their way to get to the space between the ears...to an electron the sound in your head is the holy temple...so work like your efforts are holy...because somewhere they are.
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/02 18:12:21 (permalink)
Interesting event at Avid.  Seems they are selling off their consumer products divisions.

http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2012/7/2/breaking-news-avid-sell-m-audio-and-video-product-lines.html

Some are saying this is a good move and others say it's a signal that the end of PT is inevitable.  Get out the popcorn, for sure.

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aleef
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 13:09:14 (permalink)
all DAWs do not sound the same!! and if they do, than why not go as far to say that all compression and eq plugins sound the same.

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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 13:24:01 (permalink)
aleef


all DAWs do not sound the same!! and if they do, than why not go as far to say that all compression and eq plugins sound the same.

All DAWs do sound practically the same unless different effects are added. At least there's no way human ear can tell the difference, unlike what comes to compressors and such.
 
If we take audio interface XX and record through it to any DAW, using the same settings, the result is exactly the same, unless the DAW does not record what is fed into it, but adds something that is not under the control of the user. It's the audio interface that turns the sound into 1s and 0s, and those digits translate the same in every DAW before the user starts adding FX.

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Linear Phase
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 14:05:43 (permalink)
All cars do not drive the same.  All planes do not fly the same.  All vacuum cleaners do not clean the same.  Why is so hard for folk to believe, all daws do not sound the same?

Its not just about, "if you don't use fx."   What mix without fx?  Obviously the way a daw handles these fx is important.  Its not just about having the right audio interface, "its also how the software handles the audio once you've got it in there.

Even the quality of the mixer gui, and how precise your faders and panning can get, has a huge impact on the sound....


Ok..  If you take a sine wave at 440 htz, and record 1000 cycles in Cubase, Sonar, Logic, Pro Tools, Nuendo, Ableton, FLstudio, Reaper, Studio One, etc, etc, etc...   We probably will have a hard time hearing the difference.
To come up with any sort of real study, we would need to conduct a blind testing, of several thousand people.  Musicians, not musicians..  Older people, younger people.  Some would be required to hear the same exact sample as a placebo.  Some would hear different samples...

We would need a study so  large, that something like MIT would have to conduct it.


We are mixing with panning, volume balancing, compression, reverb, and all kinds of stuff.  So why do we keep saying, "all daws sound the same, as long as we go completely out of our way, to make sure not to use any of the features, that will impact the sound, of the sound."


too many lasers...






Sonar = audio editing ninja of a music software!

#98
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 14:08:24 (permalink)
Even the quality of the mixer gui, ......................., has a huge impact on the sound.... 



Sorry bud, I think this is nothing but pure nonsense

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Chaos Choir
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 14:27:00 (permalink)
.
post edited by Chaos Choir - 2012/08/27 11:43:41
Linear Phase
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 14:29:20 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey



Even the quality of the mixer gui, ......................., has a huge impact on the sound.... 



Sorry bud, I think this is nothing but pure nonsense

I think, we can be more precise with our mixes if the gui is more precise.. Yes/no?  I don't believe one virtual mixing console is as good as the next..   But don't take my word for it..  Go download the demo of Ableton Live...  See the way the faders move up and down..  they are not as tight as Sonars..   Maybe...  That's been my personal experience.   that is what I see as a big difference between these two mixers.

Its all good though, no worries.  cheers




I'm willing to admit, perhaps I'm wrong, and perhaps its all psychological.  But I have a hard time believing that Coke and Pepsi taste the same, when you remove every single ingredient and are left with two glasses of water.  Sure, the water tastes, "the same."  but its no longer a fight between Coke and Pepsi...


Sure when you remove the virtual mixing console, the precision of its gui and its faders and panning.   Remove your ability to route things.  Remove the way the daw handles and lets you edit audio, and process fx...   Remove every single thing until you have only the audio engine...   And you have something that sounds the same...  maybe...   who mixes with nothing but the audio engine?

Chaos Choir


Linear Phase 


All cars do not drive the same.  All planes do not fly the same.  All vacuum cleaners do not clean the same.  Why is so hard for folk to believe, all daws do not sound the same? 

  
Using your analogy, the same engine, although used in different cars, should still produce the same horsepower and torque. The same would apply to a jet engine and vacuum cleaner motor. The ONLY difference IMHO would be what other 'variables' are thrown into the mix (pardon the pun) by each manufacturer which I would then relate to what's being discussed here as FX, EQ, enhancers, etc. 
  
The DAW 'engine' will add nothing to your 1's & 0's no matter if it's within Sonar, Pro Tools or Cubase. 

that is exactly what I'm saying...  who drives with nothing but the engine?
post edited by Linear Phase - 2012/07/03 14:39:48

too many lasers...






Sonar = audio editing ninja of a music software!

FastBikerBoy
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 14:38:27 (permalink)
I wonder if this thread will end up like this gem 

mleghorn
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 14:41:48 (permalink)
The fact that PT is 32-bit is a deal breaker for me. That means it won't run any 64-bit plugins, right? 

Several years ago I was looking for a DAW. I almost bought PT, but just before I was about to fork over my money, I asked, "will this run on Vista?" The guy said no. I ended up getting Sonar.

It seems like PT is behind the times in some ways.
Linear Phase
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 14:52:17 (permalink)
FastBikerBoy


I wonder if this thread will end up like this gem 

erm..  would have been nice of you to link that, before my post above.   thanks then




cheers

too many lasers...






Sonar = audio editing ninja of a music software!

Middleman
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 15:06:28 (permalink)
There are some DAWS that have equal results with the file test but here are some anomalies to consider.

I have often wondered if the hand off from the file to the soundcard driver can introduce changes that can be heard but not measured. Basically the measurement could null but the two DAWS actually sound different because of their driver implementation.

I have tested two DAWs with the equal results, introduced the same manufacturer plug in with the same preset and gotten unequal results. VSTs and plugins can vary your results dramatically.

1s and 0s are all the same but the mathematical approach to deliver a sum or product can vary. So your final outcome can vary. Unless every DAW company uses the exact same algorithm.

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Freddie H
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 15:19:01 (permalink)
Linear Phase


Well I hear a difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ableton = Sounds grey and muddy = bad

Renoise = Sounds dark and dirty = good

Cubase = Sounds clean and happy = acceptable major label

Pro-Tools = Sounds sterile and hospital = acceptable major label, not my fav sound

Logic = Sound pristine = one of the best sounding daws around

Reaper = Sounds good at first, upon further examination is a lot closer to audacity = sounds bad

Sonar = Reminds me of the sound of Logic, and Cubase, does not sound hospitalized like Pro-Tools = Sounds great

Orion, Mulab, Podium, Samplitube = All on the same level = very close to Logic, Cubase, and Sonar.


Studio One...  dunno, never tried it,,,




EDIT = No...  I have no scientific evidence



Edit again =  I just can't help it.  I really do hear a difference.  Maybe it is all psychological....   Too bad Ableton doesn't have support for 64bit yet...  I've been building drum kits for a few hours now, and my ears are used to Renoise and Sonar, cause I rewire...   otherwise, I check out some sounds in Live..  but I can't be bothered...

You are right, they all sound different. Some worse some better.
 
No you don't need to be a scientist to hear this. You only need to use your ears, great AD converters + nice studio monitors.
If you want proof there are is out on the Internet. Do a Search! There are sites that have made scientist analyze of the different DAW audio engines that show the different audio frequency respond spectrum.
 
 

 

 
 
post edited by Freddie H - 2012/07/03 15:30:48


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Freddie H
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 15:23:43 (permalink)
and as compare Pro Tools to anything to other DAW it sucks as always... here we go...



 
anyone still thinks Pro Tools are that great?


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g_randybrown
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 15:35:42 (permalink)
We all have Butt-Holes, so why not fart out of them every now and themCj



Ol' CJs got a way with words don't he?! 

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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 16:55:16 (permalink)
Freddie, your charts are misleading. First, everyone knows that PT does not have a forte of midi. Let's just concede that polyphony especially with Kontakt is not great in PT although, I don't use Kontakt and that means nothing to me.

Your last two charts don't list Protools, not sure what you were going for there.
post edited by Middleman - 2012/07/03 17:18:55

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SEVerstraten
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 16:58:53 (permalink)
    anyone still thinks Pro Tools are that great?  


Dunno, but I like the colors 


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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 20:33:36 (permalink)

Simply importing audio files from multiple DAWs doesn't satisfy me that we are testing the audio engine of a DAW except on playback.

To me it needs to be done as follows so that recording through the audio engine is involved in each DAW.

Take an audio wave created in any DAW. Export it and play it via an external source through your souncard and record it into any and all DAWs you have installed.
Name each of the recordings for identification.

Then import them into each DAW one after another. If they null there are no differences in the audio engine. If they dont null then there are differences. Simple as that.



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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 22:02:50 (permalink)
I have used many different daws and what I notice is that I write music differently in all of them. In reason I find myself programming sounds that I want to hear. In fruity loops I find that I am using a lot of their instruments and sounds. When I write in sonar I use everything and really have no problems. However, I do feel with sonar you do have to have the best computer and processor in order to not have major issues. 

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aleef
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/03 23:28:53 (permalink)
Bitbridge and Jbridge on any given day,may not render consistently in 64bit, with 32bit plugs. and the best plugs are still 32bit.
after nearly 2yrs, im back to 32 for that reason. like i said X1 is the better value, and it is more stable on the windows platform, and everything works...and i can go on and on. X1 is a great DAW. But there is a difference in sound between the two, and its not subtle its obvious. for some reason my programs and plugs respond more agressively in PT. yeah there are a few things PT doesnt do, but the meat and potatos things like tracking, mixing, and editing, it does very well..for someone to say PT sucks and is sterile/hospital sounding is talking out of their ass.

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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/06 14:14:47 (permalink)
aleef


Bitbridge and Jbridge on any given day,may not render consistently in 64bit, with 32bit plugs. and the best plugs are still 32bit.
after nearly 2yrs, im back to 32 for that reason. like i said X1 is the better value, and it is more stable on the windows platform, and everything works...and i can go on and on. X1 is a great DAW. But there is a difference in sound between the two, and its not subtle its obvious. for some reason my programs and plugs respond more agressively in PT. yeah there are a few things PT doesnt do, but the meat and potatos things like tracking, mixing, and editing, it does very well..for someone to say PT sucks and is sterile/hospital sounding is talking out of their ass.
 
Minority of all Professional plugins are still in x32bit, less than 5 %.
 
UAD and Sound Toys are the only last I know of that are still in x32bit versions only. UAD get updated to x64bit this summer so what x32 plugins are you referring too that are so great?


-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/06 14:38:48 (permalink)
Pro Tools VS other DAWs.

If any have major problems with softwares like Spectrasonics, East West, Vienna and like Kontakt sampler and on it is definitely Pro Tools! It shows that many don’t have any real experience with Pro Tools/ Pro Tools HD
. I do and that’s why I don’t recommend anyone to use it!

Any of these software programs need of a lot RAM and x64 and they crash all day long with Pro Tools 10 or Pro Tools HD! That is why Pro Tools doesn’t work in any real professional environment except for tracking and recording. Tracking & recording works perfectly well and are even more stable and better with other DAWs like SONAR X1, Cubase, Logic Nuendo, Samplitude and STUDIO ONE and can also record and work with higher audio quality and unlimted track count then any Pro Tools version ever can. All other programs can also utilize all RAM too (more than 3GB) that Pro tools fail again...and again.. If you plan to work with film, 5.1, 7.1 THX-surround doesn’t work either in Pro Tools or Pro Tools HD.


Pro Tools sucks big time if you ask me!


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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/06 14:39:12 (permalink)
Freddie H
 
UAD get updated to x64bit this summer .......

We hope.


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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/06 14:49:30 (permalink)
Freddie H


That is why Pro Tools doesn’t work in any real professional environment except for tracking and recording.
 
If you plan to work with film, 5.1, 7.1 THX-surround doesn’t work either in Pro Tools or Pro Tools HD.

Except that greater than 90% of the commercial music we have listened to in the last 10 years has been tracked and mixed in ProTools.
 
Regarding film, that is disappointing I am sure that affects a lot of members here.

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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/06 14:54:05 (permalink)
Psychobillybob

...very musical sounding...

Ethan Winer says (in his recent book, The Audio expert) the above statement is impossible to quantify via tried and true audio measurement techniques. Note: that is paraphrased as I cannot be arsed to go to my "library" and verify the exact wording.
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/06 14:58:01 (permalink)
FastBikerBoy


I wonder if this thread will end up like this gem 

Pfft. The freds up here generally peter out around 800 posts. Ya, that fred almost made 1000.


Down in the coffee house there is a fred that is approaching 5000 posts and not one argument or dissent.
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Re:Sonar X1 vs Pro tools 10 part 1 2012/07/06 16:39:23 (permalink)
post edited by WDI - 2012/07/06 17:18:52

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