The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 06:22:55
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"That's why I think they should make it optional, but they probably won't."
I like your idea about the option, but think you are correct about the prognosis.
"I can certainly think of situations where it would be a true nightmare"
It took me a few days to figure out why the drum hits I was seeing as diamonds with my drum map had note durations of whole notes. :-)
best regards,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 06:37:56
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jm24
It is not that I am unable to learn all kinds of new stuff.
It is that too often now I find lots of the new stuff are changes that do not make sense. Are not thought through. And not an improvement. Having been made to justify getting paid.
The new SX FUI requires more clicks and more difficult keystrokes to do what was easier before. With no good rational provided for having made these changes.
What we are told is that some non-user focus groups found the appearance of S 8.5.3 to be too cluttered. So what we got has lots of wasted space, a reduction of the use of color, requires more clicks to get the same stuff done.
And when we ask why this particularly stupid path was followed we are told we are just old and whiny.
More clicks. Less efficient, more wasted space, less configurable (like Sonar 1).
SX is in many ways a major step to the rear.
Being told I am an old idiot is not new. But over 11 years I have paid the CW dudes a couple thousand dollars. I was hoping for better that S 8.5.3. And instead I got SX. A grey plastic, cheap looking, difficult to use program.
Sometimes getting old does include becoming wise. Though most youngsters will argue with my perceptions now, they will come to know the validity of such with time. Too bad they don't get it now. They would waste a lot less time.
Last night it was 1983 when I went to sleep. It does pass that quickly. Be prepared.
J
Yes, I fully agree Jim... I was shocked to recently learn that Cakewalk staffed it's former Director of Product Management position with someone who had a total of 8 years experience after earning a Master's Degree. That sounds impetuous to me but then I learned that the person was actually a former "Vice President" at yet another company. A position held merely 3 years after graduating from college. Being an expert in some technical field does not preclude the fact that it takes many years to amass life experience and, as you suggest, generalized wisdom. Heck, I'm still working on that stuff every day. Having the realization that Cakewalk, the corporation, depends on such experience to guide the development of product explains, to me, why I have observed all the symptoms I have come to complain about for the past 5 years. Good luck. best regards, mike
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gothic.angel
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 07:30:11
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jm24
...After watching Krueger blaze a path it is difficult to justify adapting to the slower and more cumbersome SX approach.
But then, I am from the OLD school. And I find the GUI of SX violates many bits of scientific research about interface design. But then, we all know that old people are fairly worthless with respect to knowing how to do anything. I am a whiner. With good reason.
It is "funny," sorta, when reading the comments that are the problem is we just need to learn the new way no matter how less useful it is.
And so on.
J
...GOOD, REASONABLE points, Jim... Unfortunately it seems the product has been largely ruined with the "new" direction.... And it smells like the damage is definitive, although STILL hoping NOT....
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gothic.angel
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 07:45:32
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jm24
It is not that I am unable to learn all kinds of new stuff.
It is that too often now I find lots of the new stuff are changes that do not make sense. Are not thought through. And not an improvement. Having been made to justify getting paid.
The new SX FUI requires more clicks and more difficult keystrokes to do what was easier before. With no good rational provided for having made these changes.
What we are told is that some non-user focus groups found the appearance of S 8.5.3 to be too cluttered. So what we got has lots of wasted space, a reduction of the use of color, requires more clicks to get the same stuff done.
And when we ask why this particularly stupid path was followed we are told we are just old and whiny.
More clicks. Less efficient, more wasted space, less configurable (like Sonar 1).
SX is in many ways a major step to the rear.
Being told I am an old idiot is not new. But over 11 years I have paid the CW dudes a couple thousand dollars. I was hoping for better that S 8.5.3. And instead I got SX. A grey plastic, cheap looking, difficult to use program.
Sometimes getting old does include becoming wise. Though most youngsters will argue with my perceptions now, they will come to know the validity of such with time. Too bad they don't get it now. They would waste a lot less time.
Last night it was 1983 when I went to sleep. It does pass that quickly. Be prepared.
J
Please excuse me for quoting so much of those lines... ...It's that I happen to have pointed out those concepts, which are really close to my heart, in many previous threads, so I feel the urgency to AGREE and UNDERLINE... ...for, you see guys, us "old Whiners" really feel like we "lost" a fully featured professional program and then "got SX. A grey plastic, cheap looking, difficult to use program".... ...and that (somehow...) hurts...
GothicAngeL - EBM - Dark Electronics______________________________SONAR Platinum ∞, Rapture ProSAMPLITUDE X3 Pro Suite, FL Studio 12, Reason 10
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Corling
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 15:36:43
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PedalPoint
mike_mccue
It seems to me that you make a very good case in demonstrating how you are able to work quickly. You make so good a case in fact that it seems, to me, that your work flow offsets any inconvenience you may perceive in having the PRV tools remember the previous notes characteristics.
I have always found the remembered state extremely helpful and more often than not I find I use a series of similar notes in clusters. So having a tool that remembers the previous state suits me well.
In your case, you seem to be able to make selections of note duration so quickly and effectively that it seems like you can over ride the memorized state effortlessly.
all the best,
mike
Perhaps you could say that. Guess my point was that there are moments when you do want Sonar to remember the duration of the previously selected note, and there are moments that you don't. In other words, there are both pluses and minuses to such a feature, but when you have a faster way of changing durations most of the pluses disappear, but you're still left with all the minuses. That's why I think they should make it optional, but they probably won't. I'll most likely survive either way.
I can certainly think of situations where it would be a true nightmare not having Sonar remember the previous duration, but luckily those situations don't occur very often for me.
I use a lot of soft synths where the "note length to MIDI" relationship is tenuous at best. For example; an EastWest Trumpet in a non-staccato articulation triggered by MIDI does not necessarily *sound* like it starts where the MIDI note starts. A non-staccato trumpet note (and even a staccato one) has a gradual attack, a climax, and a fade-out that are often an inexact match for the beginning or end of the MIDI note triggering it. Therefore, when composing via the mouse in the Piano-Roll view, it is essential to "hear" how the virtual-instrument responds to a particular note length at a particular velocity. In this situation, remembering the duration and velocity of the previously selected note is extremely valuable. When MIDI notes are an imperfect approximation of your virtual instrument to begin-with, the most intuitive way to input Piano-Roll notes with the mouse is based on how a previous note-duration-velocity "sounded."
Sonar X1c / Intel i7-980x / Windows 7 64-bit / 16GB RAM / Intel SSDs For OS and Project Drives / RME Fireface 800 Interface
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 18:31:59
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Hey everyone has their generally valid-ish viewpoints depending on how one likes to work or the habits they have. But... ...here's my take FWIW: I have a hard time understanding or believing that the old way was smarter (i.e. three customizable tools with arbitrary names and yet the ability to do it all with one tool). Why in the world would anyone want to change tools to simply erase a note, or to draw one? In the years since the PRV customization tool, I've never done this and instead customized the PRV tools to work with one tool. Now the Smart Tool does the same thing (although I would argue some customization options would be a good thing - like allowing single left click Draw). So with the Smart Tool you can draw notes by either holding ALT or double-clicking, you can adjust notes by simply dragging the ends, you can erase by simply right-clicking, you can adjust volume by dragging up or down on the hot-spot on top of each note, and so on. SONAR kind of had a Smart Tool when it came to the PRV already and I always urged users to quit jumping back and forth between tools and instead customize one tool that does everything (they usually seemed pretty happy to discover this). Now the Smart Tool is pre-configured to do just that. Switching to a specific tool for certain tasks (I would argue not the norm) is done by using a Function key, which I have a hard time feeling is the end of the world. CB functions are now on the F keys rather than being spattered across the qwerty and working on some views but not others. Before S was Select tool in the PRV but Split elsewhere. Not to mention if you just middle-click, an entire tool box pops up right under your cursor that allows quick and easy, one-handed tool switching as well. Look it's one thing if one doesn't want to adjust one's habits or just prefers the old way for whatever reason, but I would respectfully argue that this idea that the PRV is ruined or it's all stupid and non-nonsensical is just not supported by the facts and doesn't hold up in actual use once one understands (and dare I say embraces) the changes. Having said that, I'll repeat that I feel some further customization would make the Smart Tool that much better...and it will most certainly see further improvement over time. But I feel having it configured out of the box rather than having to DIY in the PRV customizer is cleaner and friendlier. I guess I was one of those that NEVER used the three MIDI editing tools and always preferred one super tool...which is pretty much how X1 behaves out of the box now.
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2011/03/14 18:35:00
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ba_midi
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 18:35:09
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
Hey everyone has their generally valid-ish viewpoints depending on how one likes to work or the habits they have. But...
...here's my take FWIW:
I have a hard time understanding or believing that the old way was smarter (i.e. three customizable tools with arbitrary names and yet the ability to do it all with one tool). Why in the world would anyone want to change tools to simply erase a note, or to draw one? In the years since the PRV customization tool, I've never done this and instead customized the PRV tools to work with one tool. Now the Smart Tool does the same thing (although I would argue some customization options would be a good thing - like allowing single left click Draw).
So with the Smart Tool you can draw notes by either holding ALT or double-clicking, you can adjust notes by simply dragging the ends, you can erase by simply right-clicking, you can adjust volume by dragging up or down on the hot-spot on top of each note.
SONAR kind of had a Smart Tool when it came to the PRV already and I always urged users to quit jumping back and forth between tools and instead customize one tool that does everything (they usually seemed pretty happy to discover this). Now the Smart Tool is pre-configured to do just that. Switching to a specific tool for certain tasks (I would argue not the norm) is done by using a Function key, which I have a hard time feeling is the end of the world. CB functions are now on the F keys rather than being spattered across the qwerty and working on some views but not others. Before S was Select tool in the PRV but Split elsewhere.
Not to mention if you just middle-click an entire tool box pops up right under your cursor that allows quick and easy tool switching as well.
Look it's one thing if one doesn't want to adjust one's habits or just prefers the old way for whatever reason, but I would respectfully argue that this idea that the PRV is ruined or it's all stupid and non-nonsensical is just not supported by the facts and doesn't hold up in actual use once one understands and dare I say embraces the changes.
Having said that, I'll repeat that I feel some further customization would make the Smart Tool that much better...and it will most certainly see further improvement over time. But I feel having it configured out of the box rather than having to DIY in the PRV customizer is cleaner and friendlier. I guess I was one of those that NEVER used the three MIDI editing tools and always preferred one super tool...which is pretty much how X1 behaves out of the box now.
Well said, Brandon - and I happen to completely agree. Even though X1 is not in use by me at this time, I DO prefer this method (and other DAWs use similar ones). Bring on X1B please ;)
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 18:42:10
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ba_midi
Bring on X1B please ;)
I think the top is beginning to brown nicely. 
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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ba_midi
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 18:43:01
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
ba_midi
Bring on X1B please ;)
I think the top is beginning to brown nicely.
Haha, well, being a New Yawka, I could use a little browning after this winter! ;)
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ShermanSmelville
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 18:48:04
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"I think the top is beginning to brown nicely."
That's what I like to hear. She's almost ready. Now I wonder will this nicely browned cake having some sort of special icing not alluded to in the bug fix notes?
Music Equipment: Cakewalk, Izotope, Propellerheads, Wavelab, Yamaha guitars, Roland keyboards Sonar X1, Gateway DX4831 (i7 860, NVidia GT320, 64bit, 8gig)
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subtlearts
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 18:51:13
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
ba_midi
Bring on X1B please ;)
I think the top is beginning to brown nicely.
Nice indeed. Is the demo perhaps in the oven there with it?
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 18:56:03
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
Look it's one thing if one doesn't want to adjust one's habits or just prefers the old way for whatever reason, but I would respectfully argue that this idea that the PRV is ruined or it's all stupid and non-nonsensical is just not supported by the facts and doesn't hold up in actual use once one understands (and dare I say embraces) the changes.
That's pretty much the point I was trying to make as well. I went back and used the Smart Tool in the PRV just to see if I was missing something (for me and my way of working) and it was just so easy. Having said that, I'll repeat that I feel some further customization would make the Smart Tool that much better...and it will most certainly see further improvement over time. But I feel having it configured out of the box rather than having to DIY in the PRV customizer is cleaner and friendlier. I guess I was one of those that NEVER used the three MIDI editing tools and always preferred one super tool...which is pretty much how X1 behaves out of the box now."
Agreed, the single click left button note enter for one. WOW totally failed the multiple quote trick. Is there a video on how to do multiple quotes? Brandon? Seth? AHA - figured it out. I'll do a tutorial!!
post edited by HumbleNoise - 2011/03/14 19:01:59
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 18:59:12
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ba_midi
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
ba_midi
Bring on X1B please ;)
I think the top is beginning to brown nicely.
Haha, well, being a New Yawka, I could use a little browning after this winter! ;)
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 19:02:35
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HumbleNoise
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk]
Look it's one thing if one doesn't want to adjust one's habits or just prefers the old way for whatever reason, but I would respectfully argue that this idea that the PRV is ruined or it's all stupid and non-nonsensical is just not supported by the facts and doesn't hold up in actual use once one understands (and dare I say embraces) the changes.
That's pretty much the point I was trying to make as well. I went back and used the Smart Tool in the PRV just to see if I was missing something (for me and my way of working) and it was just so easy.
Having said that, I'll repeat that I feel some further customization would make the Smart Tool that much better...and it will most certainly see further improvement over time. But I feel having it configured out of the box rather than having to DIY in the PRV customizer is cleaner and friendlier. I guess I was one of those that NEVER used the three MIDI editing tools and always preferred one super tool...which is pretty much how X1 behaves out of the box now."
Agreed, the single click left button note enter for one.
WOW totally failed the multiple quote trick. Is there a video on how to do multiple quotes? Brandon? Seth?
Fixed it for ya.  It's just a matter of right-indenting the text you want to quote and leaving your own text left-justified. EDIT: We better be careful or we're going to create a tear in the spaceforum continuum...
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2011/03/14 19:03:40
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 19:11:05
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Whoa that was a little inter-dimensional. Did you fix that or did I? Or did I just think I fixed it? Or did you think that I fixed it after you fixed it but really it just fixed itself? That's going to make that tutorial a little more difficult. But yeah I like the right indent trick. I'm just late to so many parties, may as well show in the spaceforum continuum late, rather than not at all.
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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gothic.angel
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 19:13:33
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...NO GUYS... I don't agree... ...too easy (now) to reduce everything to the "smart tool" question... I believe the OP point was the new piano roll presents an interface generally reduced of available features/tools, compared to previous one, so that it may now take ages to find what is where... thus "ruined" in this sense... Now, like it or not, the new PRV interface IS poorer...... and that doesn't "sound" like an improvement... ...let's be fair....
post edited by gothic.angel - 2011/03/14 19:17:36
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ba_midi
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 19:19:40
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Fixed it for ya. It's just a matter of right-indenting the text you want to quote and leaving your own text left-justified. EDIT: We better be careful or we're going to create a tear in the spaceforum continuum... Maybe we need a smart tool 
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A1MixMan
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 19:45:56
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I'm just late to so many parties, may as well show in the spaceforum continuum late, rather than not at all. Don't you get it? you're there already. :-)
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 19:47:02
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gothic.angel
...NO GUYS... I don't agree...
...too easy (now) to reduce everything to the "smart tool" question...
I believe the OP point was the new piano roll presents an interface generally reduced of available features/tools, compared to previous one, so that it may now take ages to find what is where... thus "ruined" in this sense...
Now, like it or not, the new PRV interface IS poorer...... and that doesn't "sound" like an improvement...
...let's be fair....
Respectfully, just saying it is poorer doesn't make it so. Many of us were using a single tool for everything in the PRV anyway (albeit after having to manually configure it and with some caveats). Other than the arguably valid points about remembering last note length (and maybe wanting single left-click draw as an option), I still don't see what's been reduced - especially to the point of ruining the interface. And I would question that it takes ages to find things. In support I would refer to the list below. Want to draw a note? Double left-click or ALT+Left-click. Want to erase a note? Right-click (isn't this easier than switching tools first?) Want to lasso notes? Left+Click and lasso. Want to adjust note lengths? Left click the edge of the note. Want to split a note? ALT+Left Click Want to adjust velocity? Left+click on the topmost part of the note? Etc... And if you want the individual tools, just middle-click or hit T and they pop-up in a transparent box right under your mouse.
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2011/03/14 19:56:46
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A1MixMan
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 19:47:49
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gothic.angel
...NO GUYS... I don't agree...
...too easy (now) to reduce everything to the "smart tool" question...
I believe the OP point was the new piano roll presents an interface generally reduced of available features/tools, compared to previous one, so that it may now take ages to find what is where... thus "ruined" in this sense...
Now, like it or not, the new PRV interface IS poorer...... and that doesn't "sound" like an improvement...
...let's be fair....
Which tools or features have been "reduced" in the PRV in X1? Remeber, there are other tools in the HUD (Heads Up Display) when you click the scroll wheel as well.
post edited by A1MixMan - 2011/03/14 19:50:04
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A1MixMan
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 19:51:34
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Brandon,
Don't you think an undo button would be cool in the HUD on the bottom left? (or where ever)
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 19:57:19
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A1MixMan
Brandon,
Don't you think an undo button would be cool in the HUD on the bottom left? (or where ever)
Do you mean to undo the last edit or to undo the last tool selection?
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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A1MixMan
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 20:06:37
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
A1MixMan
Brandon,
Don't you think an undo button would be cool in the HUD on the bottom left? (or where ever)
Do you mean to undo the last edit or to undo the last tool selection?
Undo the last edit. I tend to screw up alot. Just seems quicker to click scroll wheel and hit undo rather than Ctrl Z or even moving to the Control Bar to click the undo button (if this gets put back in). This way I don't move the mouse from the point of the edit or move my hand to the keyboard so I can try it again. I like to keep one hand on the mouse and the other on the Studio Mix transport wheel.
post edited by A1MixMan - 2011/03/14 20:09:28
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 20:08:58
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A1MixMan
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
A1MixMan
Brandon,
Don't you think an undo button would be cool in the HUD on the bottom left? (or where ever)
Do you mean to undo the last edit or to undo the last tool selection?
Undo the last edit. I tend to screw up alot. Just seems quicker to click scroll wheel and hit undo rather than Ctrl Z or even moving to the Control Bar to click the undo button (if this gets put back in). This way I don't move the mouse from the point of the edit so I can try it again.
Yeah not a bad idea. I could actually see the HUD adding more stuff over time and - who knows - maybe eventually being at least partially configurable.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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A1MixMan
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 20:13:08
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Cool. Thanks. How's Seth, I mean Robin, doing in Japan?
post edited by A1MixMan - 2011/03/14 20:48:46
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 20:25:25
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A1MixMan
Cool.
Thanks. How's Seth doing in Japan?
Actually Seth has been in Germany and Robin was the one in Japan. It was really a tough few days for Robin, but luckily he is back home now safe and sound. I wish I could say the same for those who were more drastically affected (to put it mildly).
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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A1MixMan
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 20:44:29
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I knew I had his name wrong. I meant Robin.
Ok, good. And +1 on the prayers for the people over there, and everywhere really.
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gothic.angel
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 21:17:51
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
gothic.angel
...NO GUYS... I don't agree...
...too easy (now) to reduce everything to the "smart tool" question...
I believe the OP point was the new piano roll presents an interface generally reduced of available features/tools, compared to previous one, so that it may now take ages to find what is where... thus "ruined" in this sense...
Now, like it or not, the new PRV interface IS poorer...... and that doesn't "sound" like an improvement...
...let's be fair....
Respectfully, just saying it is poorer doesn't make it so. Many of us were using a single tool for everything in the PRV anyway (albeit after having to manually configure it and with some caveats). Other than the arguably valid points about remembering last note length (and maybe wanting single left-click draw as an option), I still don't see what's been reduced - especially to the point of ruining the interface. And I would question that it takes ages to find things. In support I would refer to the list below.
Want to draw a note? Double left-click or ALT+Left-click.
Want to erase a note? Right-click (isn't this easier than switching tools first?)
Want to lasso notes? Left+Click and lasso.
Want to adjust note lengths? Left click the edge of the note.
Want to split a note? ALT+Left Click
Want to adjust velocity? Left+click on the topmost part of the note?
Etc...
And if you want the individual tools, just middle-click or hit T and they pop-up in a transparent box right under your mouse.
....So, what are those new menus (hiding features) for...? ....No more visible tools, nor visual feedback = more time (ages, as a metaphor...) to find features.... thus "poorer" interface.... ....It's the same new aspect that some of the people here call "cleaner"... other JUST find it "poorer".............................
post edited by gothic.angel - 2011/03/14 21:20:06
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PedalPoint
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 21:21:43
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Hey Brandon! I think you're right. The new way is better, it's just not perfected yet. Like you, I mostly used one tool in old Sonar too. In fact, I switch tools more often in X1 than in old Sonar. I guess the old smart-tool was smarter. BUT, make the new smart-tool more customizable and allow single left clicks to draw notes, then we're talking! Theodor Krueger was quoted in another thread as having some interesting criticism about how the piano-roll has developed in the newer versions. http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2250344 I think you should read what he writes carefully. His points are very valid, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most of them applies to X1 too, even though he was criticising 8.5. One of the things he mentioned was the midi track colours, and this is something which has bugged me too, so let me elaborate a little bit on this. On the one hand it is nice that Sonar gives each track a different colour, and it is also sometimes nice that different velocities get different shades of a colour, but sometimes this causes problems. If the colours are too bright the notes become hard to see, which happens when your working with very low velocities. Take an example that just happened to me, let's say you have a piano piece to which your going to add an orchestral accompaniment. Add all the instruments to the piano-roll and Sonar has a useful feature which let's you grey out the piano-part, so that it won't accidentally be edited, and then you draw in the other instruments on top of that. This is very elegant and the reason I started using Sonar. But what if the whole thing is in pianissimo, with velocities in the twenties or perhaps lower? For one it becomes very difficult to tell the instruments apart, and not only that, but it becomes difficult to tell apart the instruments that are greyed out from those that aren't. My solution was to simply change all the velocity to higher values while I was working and change them back afterwards, but I think you'll see that this is a little un-elegant and un-Sonar-worthy. He also mentioned how the mouse-pointer doesn't always change when it should. For example, when I'm using the smart-tool and I press Alt, I want the cursor to change at that moment, not Alt and click and only then does it change. Try using F5 and F9 changing back an forth between the smart-tool and the draw-tool and press the Alt-key in between to change to the secondary tool. Try doing this without moving your mouse. Do you see the problem? Another thing, don't be afraid of making Sonar more customizable. I kind of get the vibe that you're trying to make a sort of one-method-fits-all-DAW, where everything is so intelligently laid out that nobody would need or wish to customize anything, which is great, but so is being able to customize everything exactly the way you want it. Don't underestimate the individuality off Sonar-users. This became another long post from me, but I'm only trying to help. If I can make a few points now and then on the forum and keep filling out problem reports then hopefully I can help make Sonar better, which in turn would benefit me, so I'm quite egotistical you see. Don't give up hope in building the perfect piano-roll! You're almost there!
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jm24
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Re:Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Unive
2011/03/14 22:59:23
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One more time with gusto: Change note values: S 8,5.3 1 keystroke OR 1 click S X 3 keystrokes (two hands) OR 2 clicks: dropdown menu Current Note value S 8,5.3 clearly displayed via highilighted selected button S X Note value white on grey background, requires attention Change tool settings: S 8,5.3 S D E,... natural position of left hand OR 1 click on button S X Use eyes to locate F key, move hand away from natural position. F5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 Click on toolbar button (This one is the same for both versions. How did this happen? Quick, add this to the list of fixes.) ============ I figger changing screensets is less likely than changing note values::: should be Crtl-Shft- 1234,... And please someone explain to me how adding extra keystrokes and clicks to just about all actions results in quicker workflow? Sonar Xtra: more clicks for extra reasons. J
post edited by jm24 - 2011/03/14 23:19:23
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