jm24


How is
  clicking the middle button to show the Heads Up MENU
  moving eyes away from note to identify what tool to choose
  moving to that tool
  clicking to select

is faster than pressing S D E,..??? 

I am happy it can be done with one hand. But it CANNOT be faster performing more steps.

AND::::    it is not just the tools, it is the note duration values as well.

Moving these to Control-Shift-number makes no sense.

Having to use a dropdown menu (another click, attention away from work,...) makes no sense.

Removing quick visual feedback of note value makes no sense.

Every time you guys explain how the new tools work fine if we would just press and hold a key, double click, click to select something from the mouse menus, proves the point that the new tools require more keystrokes, and clicks, and brain attention, and time.

Of course some of the changes are welcomed.

But many of the changes, throughout the program, require more attention, and time, and clicks,...

How often does a dentist have to open a drawer to get to a tool?

How about a surgeon waiting for a tool to be retrieved from a drawer where it is waiting to be found?

Ever look at a jeweler's workbench?  The tools that are used most often are immediately available. No need to open a drawer to find the correct tool. Mark's tools are availabel without looking away from what he is focused on.

All these guys have the tools arranged for quick access.

But when I want to insert a quarter note with SX I need to use two hands to press C-S-4, or I need to click a dropdown to change the note value, or remap some keys, or add such to the mouse to click to display a menu,....

Show of hands::: how many of you find your selves changing screensets more often than changing note values?????

Completely rediculous to have changed these keys. A fit-of-inattention at best.

Charles Hobbs time management research: if you use it every day it is in front of you for quick access.

The way the note duration values were accessible in S8 was more intelligent.

I do not think Krueger could work as fast in SX, even after he learned all the stuff.


I know this is beating a dead DAW. These changes are set in stone.  Some temporary relief will be provided by third parties. But CW has a history of discouraging such addons.

It took 5 versions to get a TrackView button. Never got fully customizable menus/button bars. And now the cycle was started anew prolly cuz some focus groups of non-sonar users thought color and quick access buttons were confusing. "Oh, it looks so cluttered." 

And I have wasted way much time venting my unhappiness. Part of the grieving process, don't ya know.  Dismayed is my current emotional state.

J

....TOTALLY AGREE........    ....proper explanation of the X1's "new" way issues.... 


... it simply and clearly explains, among other things, why enlightened (even CUSTOMIZABLE...!!!) visual feedback giving Toolbars are (were... unfortunately...) far better than features-hiding "multi-level-extra-clicks" menus and invisible "type-this-and/or-that-key-I-Shall-try-to-remember" functions......


...yes, there are some nice welcome changes, but TOO MANY subtractions and regressions....... 

When one reads stuff like the above one wonders if the English language is very useful at all. What does it take to get through the fog?

...the only "fog", here, seems to be brought by X1's hiding tools here and there..... (just a joke... ) 

jm24


Yo John

You repeately demonstrate that because you do not possses the ability to read-for-comprehesion you assume no one else has developed this skill first introduced in second grade.

Bit provides you with a reasoned, experienced, example, and you respond with your narrow perspective that he is not capable of assessing what he has read about how SX functions, without firsthand experience.

One of the main uses of lwritten language is humans can document their experience, and others can read such and learn. A wonderful invention. 

To make this work requires the readers to be able to understand the words, grammer, and context of the writing in toto.

A great example of the dissconnect that happens regularly is support personnel tending to read the first sentence of a post and react to it without reading the whole post and truely comprehending the subject of the post, not just the subject of the first sentence..

You often respond to the first item in a post you find annoying. Thereby not contributing value to a conversation.

And then you do it again. And again.

=======================

FatBikerBoy: "Am I missing something here? "

The point of most of the posts from us whiners is that we find the default mappings (keyboard/mouse) to be inadaquate.

And it may be possible to change such. I would rather not have had to.

J

In basic composition the first sentence is the topic sentence where the main point of the the composition is stated. But whether it is the thing I am responding to or not it is my prerogative to do so as I choose.  The quote you list is not mine BTW. It belongs to Fast Biker Boy.

So a four page thread is all about the default keybindings and you not liking them? Is that it?

How absurd!

I thought the thread was about the End Of The Universe™? So, maybe we should discuss whether it will be the Big Crunch or the Big Rip (or was it "Rib"...)?

John

dreamkeeper


I thought the thread was about the End Of The Universe™? So, maybe we should discuss whether it will be the Big Crunch or the Big Rip (or was it "Rib"...)?

Shall we sell all our belongings and await the doom?

Nah... I'm waiting for the dome... er... demo.

bitflipper

John, I concede the point that because I am not an X1 user I am unqualified to judge its merits.

The whole 'if you've never used it you're opinion doesn't matter' argument is bs.

Just because you've never had any hands on with X1 doesn't mean you haven't read about people's frustrations here or watched a vid on youtube and compared it to your experience with 8.5, or don't understand that 5 clicks to do something is worse than 2.

I pretty much washed my hands of this place because of this kind of thing. You can't say anything here without getting ridiculed anymore by a select few that have made it their mission to quiet and discredit any opposition to X1.

Bit ... you have every right in the world to comment on X1 ... don't let anyone tell you different. If you've never used a Cakewalk product and came in here shouting and yelling how terrible it is, I may feel different, but you've done nothing wrong here as far as I can see.

Bub

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Hey everyone has their generally valid-ish viewpoints depending on how one likes to work or the habits they have. But...

...here's my take FWIW:

I have a hard time understanding or believing that the old way was smarter (i.e. three customizable tools with arbitrary names and yet the ability to do it all with one tool). Why in the world would anyone want to change tools to simply erase a note, or to draw one? In the years since the PRV customization tool, I've never done this and instead customized the PRV tools to work with one tool. Now the Smart Tool does the same thing (although I would argue some customization options would be a good thing - like allowing single left click Draw).

So with the Smart Tool you can draw notes by either holding ALT or double-clicking, you can adjust notes by simply dragging the ends, you can erase by simply right-clicking, you can adjust volume by dragging up or down on the hot-spot on top of each note, and so on.

SONAR kind of had a Smart Tool when it came to the PRV already and I always urged users to quit jumping back and forth between tools and instead customize one tool that does everything (they usually seemed pretty happy to discover this). Now the Smart Tool is pre-configured to do just that. Switching to a specific tool for certain tasks (I would argue not the norm) is done by using a Function key, which I have a hard time feeling is the end of the world. CB functions are now on the F keys rather than being spattered across the qwerty and working on some views but not others. Before S was Select tool in the PRV but Split elsewhere.

Not to mention if you just middle-click, an entire tool box pops up right under your cursor that allows quick and easy, one-handed tool switching as well.

Look it's one thing if one doesn't want to adjust one's habits or just prefers the old way for whatever reason, but I would respectfully argue that this idea that the PRV is ruined or it's all stupid and non-nonsensical is just not supported by the facts and doesn't hold up in actual use once one understands (and dare I say embraces) the changes.

Having said that, I'll repeat that I feel some further customization would make the Smart Tool that much better...and it will most certainly see further improvement over time. But I feel having it configured out of the box rather than having to DIY in the PRV customizer is cleaner and friendlier. I guess I was one of those that NEVER used the three MIDI editing tools and always preferred one super tool...which is pretty much how X1 behaves out of the box now.

This all makes sense but in old Sonar you could work very fast by just switching between the Draw and Select tools in PRV. The key thing is that the names of these tools belied their extensive functions.

My biggest objection is that those other tools have been "dumbed down". People keep going on about the key-binding changes (which have arguments either way) but IMO the biggest change is that the individual tools don't work as they used to.

In old Sonar, you can resize notes when using the draw tool. In other words you can enter notes (with a single click) and immediately resize them which also changes the default note length. In the vast majority of cases you can then quickly insert new notes because typically a new note will have the same note length as the previous one. Even if the new note needs to be a different length, you can just resize it without having to change tools. By hitting S one could access the select tool that allows you to do most of the other operations one would want in the PRV. (I personally rarely used any other tool as everything was already covered with the draw and select tools if one used the key modifiers. The only thing I really wanted with the old tool was an option to always make a new selection when lasso selecting. That way assigning shift-left-drag_click on the Draw Tool to lasso selecting would allow me to do everything I need from that one tool).

In X1 the draw tool does just that. It only draws and does nothing else. The select tool also just does one thing: Selecting. So that leaves us with the smart tool that needs a double click to enter notes. Annoying and unintuitive and of course it doesn't help that X1 doesn't change the default note length automatically.

I think what Cakewalk did wrong with the X1 release is change too much functionality instead of just adding functionality. Speaking purely of the PRV, if the old tools all worked the same way but Cakewalk would have just added the Smart Tool (still fully customizable) I doubt anyone could have complained. As it stands, there is no tool that unequivocally beats the old tools so it is a change sideways (or diagonally forward) rather than purely forward and that will always cause discontent.

Brandon, you mention the fact that X1 doesn't update the default note length. If that could be addressed it would be great. As at least one person has stated that they prefer this new behaviour, it should be a user option. (The same goes for the velocity. The option should either allow to remember the last note's velocity or to go back to a default velocity).

Btw here is one obvious reason for S, E and D being better keys: They are closer! Most people will be leaning there forearms on the desk and have easy access to S, E, and D but will have to lift their arms/hands to reach the Function keys. Not good ergonomics.

Btw Brandon, you mention the different behaviours of the S key in old Sonar but at least it behaved the same with the same data. (S for Split is for clips, not notes AFAIK). I find it much worse that the Smart Tool in X1 behaves differently in PRV and in-line PRV so differing behaviour based on view and data being manipulated is not really a valid argument IMO.

UnderTow

John


The notion that a change from one set of key bindings is some how better then another is baffling to me. Especially when its stated those bindings can be changed.

...

It puts me in mind of the flat Earth society. 

Wow. That is an extremely rude comment to make especially considering how ignorant the lines above are: You are clearly forgetting how the tools actually work in Sonar versions prior to X1. You can reassign the key-bindings in X1 but it will not in any way give back the actual behaviour and functionality of those tools. The Draw tool in X1 is NOT the same as the Draw Tool in 8.5.3 and before. The same goes for all the other tools.

This goes along with another thread about the Edit Filter.

Another issue which you clearly don't get as it doesn't fit your personal workflow.

Maybe when Sonar X1 Power is out this kind of thread will go away.

How is Sonar X1 Power going to change the behaviour of the actual tools? Ignorance is not the issue here. The actual changes are the issue.

UnderTow

FastBikerBoy


Am I missing something here? What could be done using the S, D, E tools in 8.5 that can't be done in X1 using the smart tool and/or the tools remapped to those buttons if you don't like the F-key mappings?

Anyone?

Yes this is the key point I'm apparently failing to understand. Some folks keep talking about how they need to switch quickly between S, D, and E. But why?

How on this green earth is it faster to hit S to select something and then have to hit D to add notes or extend and then have to hit E to erase something - when you could just do it without having to hit any keys at all. I love FPS games and am very very comfortable with ASWD - but I wouldn't want to need to stretch to that level simply to do simple MIDI editing that is possible to perform with a single tool. You shouldn't need to switch quickly between Draw and Select - the same tool should do both.

In 8.5 the Select tool was already headed this way in that you could hold ALT to temporarily make it function like the Draw tool. If you used the PRV configuration tool you could take it further and make one tool do just about anything. Now in X1 it does it out of the box and it's consistent across all views.

And not to mention you can easily reassign the Draw tool to D and the Select tool to S, etc if you really want to. It takes seconds.

Now this discussion has encompassed a number of other issues, but can we all just get past this one at least? Why is it necessary to have certain hotkeys to switch between three different tools simply to select, draw and erase?

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Yes this is the key point I'm apparently failing to understand. Some folks keep talking about how they need to switch quickly between S, D, and E. But why?

Well I don't know about E (I always just selected and hit delete) but the workflow in previous versions of Sonar is extremely fast...

I think the Smart Tool is a good thing and it would be perfect if the customization you mention was added.

In 8.5 the Select tool was already headed this way in that you could hold ALT to temporarily make it function like the Draw tool. If you used the PRV configuration tool you could take it further and make one tool do just about anything. Now in X1 it does it out of the box and it's consistent across all views.

I think the biggest issue is the Default Note Length Issue. It makes everything else seem less practical. Also, judging by your comments above, it seems you already were using the ALT key modifier to add notes. That would explain why you are so happy with the Smart Tool. :-) I personally would prefer it the other way round: Default behaviour is to draw notes and a modifier for selecting.

And not to mention you can easily reassign the Draw tool to D and the Select tool to S, etc if you really want to. It takes seconds.

But this is the biggest issue: They are not the same tools as they used to be. I really feel that they were needlessly dumbed down. (I understand the rationale but don't agree with it).

Now this discussion has encompassed a number of other issues, but can we all just get past this one at least? Why is it necessary to have certain hotkeys to switch between three different tools simply to select, draw and erase?

Different people work differently... In Pro Tools I always have the Smart Tool engaged but most long time Pro Tools users I speak to don't ever use it (especially if they came to Pro Tools before the Smart Tool was added). That is just the way humans vary and differ from each other and how people can be resistant to change. I feel that that is something Cakewalk underestimated with the design of X1.

UnderTow

John

Is there anything in X1 you can approve of?

Of course. There are many things but there isn't much point going on about those as they are already there.

One thing to perhaps take a look at is the sort of hyperbole that most of these sorts of threads seem to be. "The end of the Universe". Is that really the way it is?

That is such an obvious joke. I suggest you don't take this or yourself so seriously, John.

I maintain that X1 takes some getting use to. What I see is an unwillingness to even try. As a result we get this sort of thread.

No I think Cakewalk took the wrong path in deciding to change so much rather than just add to the existing functionality. I might add that the design of the new tools isn't perfect. For instance I still maintain that a single grab tool would be much better than a separate select and move tool.

I also see a lack of real research on X1 so that the way it works is fully understood. The fact that Bit didn't know about keybinding informs us greatly.

No of course it doesn't. I am pretty sure Dave is fully aware of key-bindings. What Dave is asking is whether just changing the key-bindings will let him use X1 in exactly the same way as he is used to with previous versions. The answer is no.

IMO that was not such a smart decision by Cakewalk when they designed X1.

If the problem is a true problem with a tool then wouldn't a feature request be the adult way to handle this? A thread asking for support in that wish instead of a condemnation?

I can't speak for others but I have made quite a few requests/suggestions. Actually, 13.5 pages worth of requests/suggestions.

UnderTow

UnderTow

I think what Cakewalk did wrong with the X1 release is change too much functionality instead of just adding functionality. 

There it is in a nutshell.

jamesyoyo

UnderTow

I think what Cakewalk did wrong with the X1 release is change too much functionality instead of just adding functionality. 

There it is in a nutshell.

Well I don't think it's as simple as that. Continuing to add functionality is something we, and other DAW makers, have been repeatedly criticized for in recent years. What we constantly hear is that people want refinement - not additions.

Now one could argue that we refined and/or changed too much for some people to get their heads around. And that's fair enough as everyone is indeed different. I would argue that relatively sweeping change was necessary in order to move forward and be competitive - and in turn allow us to eventually add further functionality down the road. Simply adding functionality could very well risk making SONAR an increasingly complex or even obtuse application with an even steeper learning curve with that much more tweaking to get it working for most people.

UnderTow

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Hey everyone has their generally valid-ish viewpoints depending on how one likes to work or the habits they have. But...

...here's my take FWIW:

I have a hard time understanding or believing that the old way was smarter (i.e. three customizable tools with arbitrary names and yet the ability to do it all with one tool). Why in the world would anyone want to change tools to simply erase a note, or to draw one? In the years since the PRV customization tool, I've never done this and instead customized the PRV tools to work with one tool. Now the Smart Tool does the same thing (although I would argue some customization options would be a good thing - like allowing single left click Draw).

So with the Smart Tool you can draw notes by either holding ALT or double-clicking, you can adjust notes by simply dragging the ends, you can erase by simply right-clicking, you can adjust volume by dragging up or down on the hot-spot on top of each note, and so on.

SONAR kind of had a Smart Tool when it came to the PRV already and I always urged users to quit jumping back and forth between tools and instead customize one tool that does everything (they usually seemed pretty happy to discover this). Now the Smart Tool is pre-configured to do just that. Switching to a specific tool for certain tasks (I would argue not the norm) is done by using a Function key, which I have a hard time feeling is the end of the world. CB functions are now on the F keys rather than being spattered across the qwerty and working on some views but not others. Before S was Select tool in the PRV but Split elsewhere.

Not to mention if you just middle-click, an entire tool box pops up right under your cursor that allows quick and easy, one-handed tool switching as well.

Look it's one thing if one doesn't want to adjust one's habits or just prefers the old way for whatever reason, but I would respectfully argue that this idea that the PRV is ruined or it's all stupid and non-nonsensical is just not supported by the facts and doesn't hold up in actual use once one understands (and dare I say embraces) the changes.

Having said that, I'll repeat that I feel some further customization would make the Smart Tool that much better...and it will most certainly see further improvement over time. But I feel having it configured out of the box rather than having to DIY in the PRV customizer is cleaner and friendlier. I guess I was one of those that NEVER used the three MIDI editing tools and always preferred one super tool...which is pretty much how X1 behaves out of the box now.

This all makes sense but in old Sonar you could work very fast by just switching between the Draw and Select tools in PRV. The key thing is that the names of these tools belied their extensive functions.

Yes the names were not appropriate and yes once you got used to it you could work pretty quickly with Draw and Select. I think you still can if you choose to. But I would argue that not switching tools at all is faster and better than switching between two tools. What can't the Smart Tool do?

My biggest objection is that those other tools have been "dumbed down". People keep going on about the key-binding changes (which have arguments either way) but IMO the biggest change is that the individual tools don't work as they used to.

I don't know. I'm having trouble figuring out what magic functionality the old tools have that the new ones lack.

In old Sonar, you can resize notes when using the draw tool. In other words you can enter notes (with a single click) and immediately resize them which also changes the default note length. In the vast majority of cases you can then quickly insert new notes because typically a new note will have the same note length as the previous one. Even if the new note needs to be a different length, you can just resize it without having to change tools. By hitting S one could access the select tool that allows you to do most of the other operations one would want in the PRV. (I personally rarely used any other tool as everything was already covered with the draw and select tools if one used the key modifiers. The only thing I really wanted with the old tool was an option to always make a new selection when lasso selecting. That way assigning shift-left-drag_click on the Draw Tool to lasso selecting would allow me to do everything I need from that one tool).

Sounds like the Smart Tool just needs an option to remember the last note length and that covers it. You can enter notes, resize with the Smart tool just as you could with the old Draw tool.

In X1 the draw tool does just that. It only draws and does nothing else. The select tool also just does one thing: Selecting. So that leaves us with the smart tool that needs a double click to enter notes. Annoying and unintuitive and of course it doesn't help that X1 doesn't change the default note length automatically.

You can ALT+Click to enter notes. I agree...I wish it was just left+clcik, but I've gotten pretty used to how it is. Will still be pushing for a toggle though.

I think what Cakewalk did wrong with the X1 release is change too much functionality instead of just adding functionality. Speaking purely of the PRV, if the old tools all worked the same way but Cakewalk would have just added the Smart Tool (still fully customizable) I doubt anyone could have complained. As it stands, there is no tool that unequivocally beats the old tools so it is a change sideways (or diagonally forward) rather than purely forward and that will always cause discontent.

Well sometimes you have to move laterally to ultimately move forward.

Brandon, you mention the fact that X1 doesn't update the default note length. If that could be addressed it would be great. As at least one person has stated that they prefer this new behaviour, it should be a user option. (The same goes for the velocity. The option should either allow to remember the last note's velocity or to go back to a default velocity).

I agree.

Btw here is one obvious reason for S, E and D being better keys: They are closer! Most people will be leaning there forearms on the desk and have easy access to S, E, and D but will have to lift their arms/hands to reach the Function keys. Not good ergonomics.

They can be changed back. But again I'd be compelled to ask why you are switching tools all the time. To Draw? Smart Tools does it. To alter length? Smart Tool does it. To erase? Split? Change Velocity? Lasso? Smart Tool does it.

Btw Brandon, you mention the different behaviours of the S key in old Sonar but at least it behaved the same with the same data. (S for Split is for clips, not notes AFAIK). I find it much worse that the Smart Tool in X1 behaves differently in PRV and in-line PRV so differing behaviour based on view and data being manipulated is not really a valid argument IMO.

UnderTow

IMO S should also split notes. Instead it seems to truncate the note to the cursor. I have no argument for why this is and would favor S being consistent and splitting notes in the PRV as it splits clips in the TV.