Sonar X1/a's Destruction Of The Piano Roll Interface And The Resulting End Of The Universe

Aw come on... F5, F6, F7, F8, F9 and F10 make a lot more sense.

It's streamlined.

It's Skylight™.

:-)

You are probably correct.

I just like saying " F5, F6, F7, F8, F9 and F10 makes a lot more sense." because it makes me laugh every time I read it.

:-)

You can do most editing in the PRV with just using the smart tool

Hold alt and click to add a note

right click delete

select note(s) and hold Crtl to drag and copy your selection

and the rest is pretty easy to figure out, 

Only thing I find annoying is using "j" for the scrub tool then having to go back to F5 to the smart tool

a lot of useful info in the manual

Make sure no notes are selected and you can press and hold alt and click to adjust MIDI velocities in the bottom graph

adjusting note length and velocity you can do with the smart tool depending on where you point the mouse over the note

for this i find zooming useful

hold down alt and scroll the mouse wheel

or

hold down Crtl and press the arrow keys (up and right)

You can do almost everything with the smart tool. Have you learned to use it fully?

Corling, I hear ya man and don't mean to offend or argue but if you hold down the Alt key you can draw new notes with the Smart Tool with one click. It is a two handed operation but if double clicking is not a great option, it will work.

The only way to adjust note length prior to drawing is to press 'T' or the middle mouse button and adjust the setting there in the tool bar. X1a does not remember the last note length and I THINK that will be addressed with X1b.

Hope that helps

HumbleNoise

windsurfer25x


*Edit* editing note durations is also really quick and easy to do as well, especially if you lasso select a number of notes you can use the smart tool to change duration of all of them at once

I think you have to double click on any note in that group to get to the editing window.

What I meant was that if you have a group of notes selected, move the smart tool to the end of one of the notes until the cursor changes to the (change note duration cursor) then you can click and drag and all the notes selected with change their duration.

In the beginning I was also a bit puzzled about Sonar not remembering the duration of the last selected note, but now I like it much better than the way it used to be. I haven't actually done the math, but after creating my own custom key-bindings for all the different note values (the default ones are too inefficient), I work much faster.
If this is just a bug that will get fixed in X1b, I hope they include an option to choose whether or not Sonar should remember the duration of the last selected note, because I would prefer if it didn't.

So let me see if I can build an argument for why I think Sonar not remembering the duration of the last selected note is better if efficiency is your primary concern.

If you have, like me, created and memorized your own key-bindings for every note value, you can instantly change to any note value you like with one or two key-presses, which saves a lot of time. Once you have done that it actually becomes inefficient if Sonar changes note value every time you select a note with a different value. There might be times when you wish to select a note without affecting the current note value. There might be times when you wish to copy, cut or move things around without having to worry about the note-value changing.

Clicking on a previously drawn note to change note-value is not an effective method anyway. For one, it presupposes that there is a note of that duration nearby. First it involves some scanning of the screen with your eyes to locate a note with the wanted duration, then moving your mouse to the note, clicking on it, and then moving your mouse to where you wish to draw the new note. If there isn't a note of the desired duration nearby, you have to draw a note and resize it or choose duration in the menu.

With key-bindings it's only one or two key presses, and while you've been doing that you have already moved your mouse to where the next note is gonna be. Much faster. Besides, the nature of key-bindings is that they're always the same, so with some use our brain makes them into an unconscious motor-program, and thus they become automatic. With the “clicking a previously drawn note”-approach, there is really no way it can become automatic in the same way because the movements aren't exactly the same every time.

When it comes to velocity, X1a actually remembers the value of the previously selected note, which, to me, makes more sense. You can't create key-bindings for velocities, so here the “selecting a previously drawn note”-method can sometimes be quicker than the other alternatives.

Anyways, these are my thought on the matter. I'm not arguing that my way is the only way (but perhaps the fastest way), and I'm not writing this to start an argument with anyone (unless I can learn something from it). I'm more sort of writing it to demonstrate that the way it is in X1a can be more efficient if you work with a lot of key-bindings, like I do, and with a small hope that someone from Cakewalk might be reading this, and when they in X1b change it back to the way it was, like they presumably will, also decides to include an option so that users can choose for themselves which way they like it.

P.S.
When it comes to the issue of the piano-roll causing the end of the universe I would be much more worried about how selecting or unselecting “Show Velocity” also makes other controller data show up in the same lane. If they don't fix that in X1b the universe might actually end.

HumbleNoise


Pedal, What keybindings do you use for note durations?

I use different combinations of Ctrl, Alt, Shift, and the Razer Naga mouse, which has number buttons on it's side.  I've explained the details in another thread not too long ago so I might as well refer you to that:


http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2248873

Corling


I was so happy drawing MIDI notes using the piano roll view in Sonar 8.x and before

It was an elegant process of pressing "S" for the Select tool, "D" for the Draw tool, and "E" for the Erase tool.

In 8.x and before, note duration being drawn by the draw tool was automatically set to that of the last note highlighted.

As of Sonar X1/a, all interface button controls for the selection tool have been removed-from and are no longer specific to the Piano Roll interface. (In fact, all items once mirrored in the piano roll window have now been folded into Sonar's main control bar).

 ...In summary, I was going to use Sonar X1a to save the universe, but we could all die now because Sonar X1/a ruined a good Piano Roll interface.

Save the universe, fix the Piano Roll interface!

Hi, Corling...


You have all my possible understanding, sympathy and support... REALLY...  


The pian roll view in SONAR 8.x was the MOST powerful out there... unfortunately it has been ruined in X1....


It's one of the things I can't really find peace for in X1 "changes".....!!! 
STILL trying to figure out how they could really do something like that...
The  new one, after months' trying, to me is a real nightmare.... slowing editing down as never before....

Hate to say it, but that's something really taking me away from SONAR... never thought I could claim something like this...
It's just that PRV, within the MIDI context, was a real STRONG point up to v8.5... not so easy to do without NOW....   

As you can read from my signature, I also use SAMPLITUDE, once mainly for its huge Audio Editing features.... but lately I've begun using its piano roll more and more often....
My point being, It NOW seems much stronger than Sonar X1's... guess why.... It features all nice tools at hand... clearly selectable... at sight....!!!
...Doin' this and that is much faster that way, to me NO question about it....

What frustrates me is that SONAR ALREADY had something DEEPER.... why make it that poor...??  

"Simpler" (if EVER it may now be considered...) in this case means "poorer", and DOESN'T apply to a "master" DAW as SONAR should be.... NO WAY........

STILL loving SONAR... and waiting in the hope they (at Cakewalk) understand this issues are coming around too often... MUST mean something.... 

  

Changing note values with C+S+12345456789  is a two handed operation.  Very quick. And efficient.

PedalPoint


In the beginning I was also a bit puzzled about Sonar not remembering the duration of the last selected note, but now I like it much better than the way it used to be. I haven't actually done the math, but after creating my own custom key-bindings for all the different note values (the default ones are too inefficient), I work much faster.
If this is just a bug that will get fixed in X1b, I hope they include an option to choose whether or not Sonar should remember the duration of the last selected note, because I would prefer if it didn't.

So let me see if I can build an argument for why I think Sonar not remembering the duration of the last selected note is better if efficiency is your primary concern.

If you have, like me, created and memorized your own key-bindings for every note value, you can instantly change to any note value you like with one or two key-presses, which saves a lot of time. Once you have done that it actually becomes inefficient if Sonar changes note value every time you select a note with a different value. There might be times when you wish to select a note without affecting the current note value. There might be times when you wish to copy, cut or move things around without having to worry about the note-value changing.

Clicking on a previously drawn note to change note-value is not an effective method anyway. For one, it presupposes that there is a note of that duration nearby. First it involves some scanning of the screen with your eyes to locate a note with the wanted duration, then moving your mouse to the note, clicking on it, and then moving your mouse to where you wish to draw the new note. If there isn't a note of the desired duration nearby, you have to draw a note and resize it or choose duration in the menu.

With key-bindings it's only one or two key presses, and while you've been doing that you have already moved your mouse to where the next note is gonna be. Much faster. Besides, the nature of key-bindings is that they're always the same, so with some use our brain makes them into an unconscious motor-program, and thus they become automatic. With the “clicking a previously drawn note”-approach, there is really no way it can become automatic in the same way because the movements aren't exactly the same every time.

When it comes to velocity, X1a actually remembers the value of the previously selected note, which, to me, makes more sense. You can't create key-bindings for velocities, so here the “selecting a previously drawn note”-method can sometimes be quicker than the other alternatives.

Anyways, these are my thought on the matter. I'm not arguing that my way is the only way (but perhaps the fastest way), and I'm not writing this to start an argument with anyone (unless I can learn something from it). I'm more sort of writing it to demonstrate that the way it is in X1a can be more efficient if you work with a lot of key-bindings, like I do, and with a small hope that someone from Cakewalk might be reading this, and when they in X1b change it back to the way it was, like they presumably will, also decides to include an option so that users can choose for themselves which way they like it.

P.S.
When it comes to the issue of the piano-roll causing the end of the universe I would be much more worried about how selecting or unselecting “Show Velocity” also makes other controller data show up in the same lane. If they don't fix that in X1b the universe might actually end.

It seems to me that you make a very good case in demonstrating how you are able to work quickly. You make so good a case in fact that it seems, to me, that your work flow offsets any inconvenience you may perceive in having the PRV tools remember the previous notes characteristics.

I have always found the remembered state extremely helpful and more often than not I find I use a series of similar notes in clusters. So having a tool that remembers the previous state suits me well.

In your case, you seem to be able to make selections of note duration so quickly and effectively that it seems like you can over ride the memorized state effortlessly.

all the best,
mike


 

Yo mike

You know the F keys are much more efficient. Having to look away from the screen to make sure the proper key is pressed allows the computer to catch-up, the smart tool needs time to know what to do next.

And then there is the resultant learning of the new keyboard map when reaching for an F key results in palming a key inadvertently. Thereby followed by figgerin which key was pressed and how to undo whatever may have happened as the result of said mis-press.

It's all part of the master plan to make us learn to use the mouse hand more and the non-mouse hand be allowed to atrophy.

After watching Krueger blaze a path it is difficult to justify adapting to the slower and more cumbersome SX approach.

But then, I am from the OLD school. And I find the GUI of SX violates many bits of scientific research about interface design. But then, we all know that old people are fairly worthless with respect to knowing how to do anything. I am a whiner. With good reason.

It is "funny," sorta, when reading the comments that are the problem is we just need to learn the new way no matter how less useful it is.

And so on.

J

"It is "funny," sorta, when reading the comments that are the problem is we just need to learn the new way no matter how less useful it is."


:-)

After a lifetime of learning and continuing to maintain a fitness for learning all I can do in a situation like this is to take the opportunity to find humor in having people explain to me that new things are hard to learn.

I guess if they really feel like learning the micro level stuff is an accomplishment , or that memorizing new commands takes more than a few moments to learn, then it is just wildly naive and futilely optimistic of me to hope that they will ever think deeply enough to consider whether the results of a new idea are good or bad at a macro level.

:-(

all the best Jim,

mike

mike_mccue


It seems to me that you make a very good case in demonstrating how you are able to work quickly. You make so good a case in fact that it seems, to me, that your work flow offsets any inconvenience you may perceive in having the PRV tools remember the previous notes characteristics.

I have always found the remembered state extremely helpful and more often than not I find I use a series of similar notes in clusters. So having a tool that remembers the previous state suits me well.

In your case, you seem to be able to make selections of note duration so quickly and effectively that it seems like you can over ride the memorized state effortlessly.

all the best,
mike

Perhaps you could say that. Guess my point was that there are moments when you do want Sonar to remember the duration of the previously selected note, and there are moments that you don't. In other words, there are both pluses and minuses to such a feature, but when you have a faster way of changing durations most of the pluses disappear, but you're still left with all the minuses. That's why I think they should make it optional, but they probably won't. I'll most likely survive either way.
I can certainly think of situations where it would be a true nightmare not having Sonar remember the previous duration, but luckily those situations don't occur very often for me.