Cakewalk changed something people liked and valued without realising how much that was liked or valued; as a result people are angry about it. This is natural. Regardless if you argue the new tools are more 'functional' the old tools did the same job, and you could do more with them.

Either Cakewalk are going to need to:

1) Allow configuration of X1 midi tools (I don't deal with recording within Sonar heavily so unable to comment on arrange view side of this)
2) Return the old tools and give the user the option of which behavior they want.


Cakewalk, can you please justify why Sonar now as seperate snap values for different views? Why tool customization was removed when this was clearly a highlight of functionality (every review I read of 8/8.5 mentioned how useful this was). Why basic functions like remembering last used note size/velocity were removed? You should, and no doubt do, realise that changing things is going to anger people - people who make their living out of using your software would atleast like to know you changed this sort of thing before buying into your products (no demo, no mention of half of this during promo videos...).


As for users argueing the new tools are better = there is nothing you can do with the new tools you couldn't do with the old tools. There are many things you can do with the old tools you cannot do with the new tools.


Cakewalk a suggestion. Make some videos to demonstrate features of the new way midi works and actual have real world settings. Instead of saying "this is how you swap tools, this is what this tool is for" actually show a Cakewalk user, using X1, doing alot of work in the PRV similar to Theo's videos. That may atleast calm these arguements down for the time being.


Brandon, I don't mean to come of negativly as I am a Sonar fan and love the workflow in previous versions. However we both know many changes have been made that may not have been as necessery as some would like to beleive, and this is going to continue to cause issues as hostility until something is done about it.

Also A1MixMan, your flashing avatar keeps distrating me while typing. Good job. :P

Eyes


Cakewalk changed something people liked and valued without realising how much that was liked or valued; as a result people are angry about it. This is natural.

I agree with this, there is much anger because of the changes

Regardless if you argue the new tools are more 'functional' the old tools did the same job, and you could do more with them.

I don't agree with this, unless you're talking about configuring them they way you want them. What functions could you perform with the old tools that the new can't?

Either Cakewalk are going to need to:

1) Allow configuration of X1 midi tools (I don't deal with recording within Sonar heavily so unable to comment on arrange view side of this)
2) Return the old tools and give the user the option of which behavior they want.

I think/hope #1 is where they are headed. I can't see #2 happening neither would I personally want it to.

Cakewalk, can you please justify why Sonar now as seperate snap values for different views?

I thought the complaint was the opposite, you can't have separate snap values for different views unless you use screensets.

Why tool customization was removed when this was clearly a highlight of functionality (every review I read of 8/8.5 mentioned how useful this was). Why basic functions like remembering last used note size/velocity were removed? You should, and no doubt do, realise that changing things is going to anger people - people who make their living out of using your software would atleast like to know you changed this sort of thing before buying into your products (no demo, no mention of half of this during promo videos...).

I sort of agree with most of it but I don't think CW ever hid the fact that X1 was going to be radically different, although they weren't specific as to what had changed admittedly.

As for users argueing the new tools are better = there is nothing you can do with the new tools you couldn't do with the old tools. There are many things you can do with the old tools you cannot do with the new tools.

I'm getting fed up asking this question and yet still no one has replied to it with specifics. What could you do with the old tools that you can't with the new? If you want I can give you a few examples of what you can do with the new that you couldn't with the old. But I'll let you go first..........

Cakewalk a suggestion. Make some videos to demonstrate features of the new way midi works and actual have real world settings. Instead of saying "this is how you swap tools, this is what this tool is for" actually show a Cakewalk user, using X1, doing alot of work in the PRV similar to Theo's videos. That may atleast calm these arguements down for the time being.

Good idea. I think this will go a long way to at least dealing with the user ignorance side of the issues, not to say that they all issues are user ignornance, they obviously aren't - but some are undoubtedly.

Brandon, I don't mean to come of negativly as I am a Sonar fan and love the workflow in previous versions. However we both know many changes have been made that may not have been as necessery as some would like to beleive, and this is going to continue to cause issues as hostility until something is done about it.

Also A1MixMan, your flashing avatar keeps distrating me while typing. Good job. :P

I personally prefer the new workflow but fully understand that it doesn't suit everybody. Trying to please all of the people all of the time is a silly game to play, and never works.

Eyes


Cakewalk changed something people liked and valued without realising how much that was liked or valued; as a result people are angry about it. This is natural. Regardless if you argue the new tools are more 'functional' the old tools did the same job, and you could do more with them.

Either Cakewalk are going to need to:

1) Allow configuration of X1 midi tools (I don't deal with recording within Sonar heavily so unable to comment on arrange view side of this)
2) Return the old tools and give the user the option of which behavior they want.


Cakewalk, can you please justify why Sonar now as seperate snap values for different views? Why tool customization was removed when this was clearly a highlight of functionality (every review I read of 8/8.5 mentioned how useful this was). Why basic functions like remembering last used note size/velocity were removed? You should, and no doubt do, realise that changing things is going to anger people - people who make their living out of using your software would atleast like to know you changed this sort of thing before buying into your products (no demo, no mention of half of this during promo videos...).


As for users argueing the new tools are better = there is nothing you can do with the new tools you couldn't do with the old tools. There are many things you can do with the old tools you cannot do with the new tools.


Cakewalk a suggestion. Make some videos to demonstrate features of the new way midi works and actual have real world settings. Instead of saying "this is how you swap tools, this is what this tool is for" actually show a Cakewalk user, using X1, doing alot of work in the PRV similar to Theo's videos. That may atleast calm these arguements down for the time being.


Brandon, I don't mean to come of negativly as I am a Sonar fan and love the workflow in previous versions. However we both know many changes have been made that may not have been as necessery as some would like to beleive, and this is going to continue to cause issues as hostility until something is done about it.

...Yes, nice insight, EYES....




That's what I previously meant with "poorer", in relation to X1's PRV/Tools.....


If you take away (or radically change...) a well-estabilished way of working, without giving AT LEAST the chance to customize things back, you have to aspect "anger" from long-time users....




Edit:
BTW, now, after months trying with X1, my personal experience proves (just to me...) X1's method MUCH slower, very much slower than 8.5.... 
...after years of enthusiastic upgrades, up to 8.5, X1 is being the FIRST REAL disappointment... really sad....
...somehow it's just like it was NO real SONAR upgrade, as I was expecting SONAR but INSTEAD got another, DIFFERENT software... then disappointment was inevitable...
...as a result I keep turning BACK to SONAR 8.5.3, which is more and more getting me to actually STICK to unrivaled v8.... 
...which FINALLY means I will stay with 8.5.... at least until X2 comes along, showing up those that ONCE were actual "SONAR signs".... 

...because of past (glorious) memories, I would have never imagined before upgrading to X1...

Proclaiming that its a bad idea doesn't make it so. Why has no one answered FBB question?  This one.

"I'm getting fed up asking this question and yet still no one has replied to it with specifics. What could you do with the old tools that you can't with the new? If you want I can give you a few examples of what you can do with the new that you couldn't with the old. But I'll let you go first.........."

What I would like is a step by step listing of what one would/could do in 8.5.3 and why it is not possible or difficult in X1.

With that I could try it out for myself.

As others I use a controller to enter notes. I do edit but I have never found it hard to edit in any version of Sonar.

I fail to see how moving 3 tools into one is a "bad idea". As humblenoise has pointed out most of the tools aren't "dumbed down", just plain not needed. I don't think I've used one of the others yet except for the mute tool for comping. Not because I don't "use the program properly" whatever that means but simply because the smart tool covers 99% of it.

I can see that leaving them there for further development makes sense, besides which I can only imagine the reaction to removing them completely.

I can also see that not implementing some sort of user configuration is a bad idea but that doesn't make the direction change itself a bad idea. WOuld you rather have more tools added as the program develops or smarter ones? I know what I'd like but each to their own. Could it be possible that the implementation of the tools in previous versions has been bad?

Did a conversation like this really happen..............

Developer 1: "I think it'll be a good idea to have one tool that performs most of the programs functions"

Developer 2: "No I think we should have lots of separate tools and users can swap between them"

Developer 1: "Yeah you're right"

mike_mccue


as I was saying....

If I read your posts correctly you're saying your opinion is right and everyone else's is wrong.

I'm open to persuasion but so far no one has persuaded me aside from the points I've already agreed with, customization etc.

Others of course just like to disagree for the sake of it.........

I don't care what others think...I don't mind the changes...I just learn new ways of doing things....

I used to use VAX/VMS with cards for petesake


That was in the days when memory was a pile of stones...

The preoccupation with learning something as simple as Select = F6 seems to preclude the opportunity an ability to step back, see a bigger picture, and learn to recognize a bad idea.

 
But as FBB pointed out, perhaps it's because you may not need F6 or "S" in X1.   So in this case it's less about using one modifier key vs another, but using no modifier key at all.   Well, at least to Select notes.      :)
 

..almost nothing is now fast/immediate... as almost ANYTHING is NOW hidden... ...one of points (the main) is the new METHOD/TOOLS.... SLOWER.... extra-clicks EVERYWHERE....NO VISUAL FEEDBACK.... ...UNUSABLE Control Bar with HIDDEN/OFF SCREEN (thus pointless...) modules...

 
We are talking about adding and editing events in the PRV, correct?   If so, where are the extra clicks?  
 
Or has the thread branched off into a general UI discussion...
 

Mike, you make good observations, in general.   But the original topic of this thread was about using the S, D and E modifier keys in 8.5 vs. function keys in X1.  Not that there haven't been beneficial side-topics along the way such as the last duration change and Brandon's idea for a option to make left-click default to draw.  
 
However... It does seem the topic has branched off into something more, so I'll drop out since I don't have anything to add from a philosophical perspective.  
 

I guess my main point was that to argue from Windows-consistency is an especially bad, and shall I say unmusical, argument either way. Especially when it comes to such an important issue as which behavior to assign to the left click in the piano-roll. It doesn't strike me as a kind of argument someone who actually use the software on a daily basis would make.

 I guess with the decision to make left-click defalt to Select vs. Draw I ended up on the postive side of this one... at least this time around.  ;) 
 

"you're saying your opinion is right and everyone else's is wrong."


To the extent that I have an opinion about what is good and bad in the implementation of the PRV... I will point out that none of the features have been implemented as the result of my thoughts... my opinions serve wholly as recognition of someone else's good ideas.

A circumstance which I hope will serve as an indication that my opinion can not be as singular as you surmise.

best regards,
mike

FastBikerBoy


I'll bow out of this thread until someone corrects my claim that there is nothing you can't do with the X1 tool set that you could with 8.5.

The purpose of the tools is to add, remove and edit MIDI notes and their velocities. Obviously that can be done in any version of Sonar. It could still be done in X1 even if the Smart Tool was entirely removed. It wouldn't be a nice way to work IMO but it certainly could be done.  What people are objecting to is the change in workflow. I think it is undeniable that there is a change in workflow (for better or for worse).

UnderTow

>>>>Brandon wrote:::
Actually in 8.5 I was using ALT+Drag for lasso selection. Full disclosure - I lobbyed for Left+Click= Draw and Right+Click=Erase. So it seems you and I agree completely on this. Some argued that left-click is standard Windows selection functionality and I guess they have point (although I still think it's arguably backward behavior given the application) so I've lobbied for a simple customization switch which allows the behavior to be toggled/reversed - similar to how the Mute tool used to work. It won't happen in X1b, but I fully expect it by X2 at the latest. In fact I think the Smart Tool could use a handful of customzations that would really make it just about perfect for just about everyone (rainbows, butterflies...the works).
<<<<

So how long will we have to wait for a toggle?

It "should" only take a couple of hours to program the change of "holding the alt key" to "toggling the alt key."

J

trimph1


That's where the learning curve comes into play...

Workflow is very important here but it should be not seen as something that is fixed and determined for all time either...heck, if it was we'd all be still using DOS3 for crying out loud...

...NO trimph.... the learning curve is NOT the point, and DOESN'T come into play, at all....


The point is wether the workflow is now better or worse (as underTow underlined...), 
regardlesss of the "learning curve", which might be different from case to case and in ANY case...

my point being, ONCE you ALREADY know how to do it... you should feel which is better/faster and easier to access...

Not even learning curve can change the fact that too many tools are now hidden among more menus/clicks/typings away... 
and, as a conseguence, this overcoming learning curve might even result WORTHLESS...

Therefore, far as this aspect, X1 is SLOW, SLOWER than 8.5....