bladetragic
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Sonar really needs a sampler.
This is one of the biggest holes in Sonar imo. A well integrated drag and drop type of sampler to trigger, edit, and manipulate loops and one shots. There's very good examples out there of where to start. Something along the lines of Ableton's Simpler/Sampler (probably the best out there right now) or something even as simple as Studio One's SampleOne. This is very critical for electronic musicians/producers who are not in the world of live instrumentation. Yes, there are 3rd party options like Kontakt/Battery, but the point is you really shouldn't need a third party app for this relatively basic functionality that a lot of the main competing DAWs have out of the box. Plus, those apps can be buggy and resource heavy sometimes (not to mention pricey) when all I want to do is something basic like edit and trigger a drum sound or sample.
Side note: I also suspect, in addition to the whole not having a MAC version thing, this may be one of the main reasons Sonar tends to get overlooked by a lot of people. There's a reason all the "big name" DAWs provide a solution for this. I really like the way development has been going with the the new business model, but this imo should be near the top of the list. Most people looking to invest in a DAW are more likely to need a solution for editing and triggering samples than a drum replacer and a theme editor. Don't get me wrong, I do think those are very cool features to have, just not as practical in the process of making music as a sampler would be.
This is just my observation and opinion based off of what I've seen while networking and collaborating with a lot of different producers and musicians.
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synkrotron
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 04:55:37
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Hi B,
Perhaps the reason that Cakewalk do not provide a sampler within their collection of instruments is that there are so many third party options available, many for free.
Also, with there being a few flavours of Sonar available, at which level do you think they should be providing this free sampler?
cheers
andy
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bladetragic
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 05:13:52
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☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2016/10/20 10:29:17
Well, I already addressed the 3rd party option thing. For one, I think this is one of those things that you really shouldn't have to go looking for a 3rd party option. For an electronic musician/producer, working with samples is THAT critical that I think you turn people off/away if your answer is to search for a 3rd party solution. Also I will say this, since these 3rd party options are available for pretty much every DAW, then why do you think most of the main ones still provide a solution for working with samples out of the box?
To your second question, I don't know. That would be for Cake to decide. I would guess maybe make it something that is included in the Platinum version and possibly available to purchase as an add-on for the lower tier versions. Or just make it exclusive to Platinum. My idea of the Platinum version is a version that provides tools where I would need to do very little searching elsewhere (3rd parties) for my basic, or essential, music creation needs. And working with samples is a basic need imo.
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azslow3
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 05:28:47
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bladetragic
Plus, those apps can be buggy and resource heavy sometimes (not to mention pricey) when all I want to do is something basic like edit and trigger a drum sound or sample.
Light in resources, bug free and for free...  synkrotron
Perhaps the reason that Cakewalk do not provide a sampler within their collection of instruments is that there are so many third party options available, many for free.
+ Also it is hard to claim that Sonar does not work with samples at all... But seriously. There are many components which are closely bound to the DAW. Score editor, PRV, step sequencer. The next level of integration (less coupled) have ARA based effects. But a sampler is in the third category, it is just a synth. And so while I understand that for someone (not for everyone) sampler is good to have working inside Sonar, I do not see why Sonar "need" it, I mean in which part you want Sonar is changed to be more friendly for samplers?
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bladetragic
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 05:51:30
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azslow3
bladetragic
Plus, those apps can be buggy and resource heavy sometimes (not to mention pricey) when all I want to do is something basic like edit and trigger a drum sound or sample.
Light in resources, bug free and for free...
My point is...if a 3rd party app is buggy it becomes cumbersome having to go back and forth with a 3rd party AND Cake to figure out what is going on. I just went through something like this with D16 Lush-101. It's much easier to deal with when it's "in-house". As for free. Well, hasn't that been the whole point of the new subscription model? Have not most, if not all, the new developments been included without needing to make an extra purchase? I don't really get your point here. azslow3
synkrotron
Perhaps the reason that Cakewalk do not provide a sampler within their collection of instruments is that there are so many third party options available, many for free.
+
Also it is hard to claim that Sonar does not work with samples at all...
But seriously. There are many components which are closely bound to the DAW. Score editor, PRV, step sequencer. The next level of integration (less coupled) have ARA based effects.
But a sampler is in the third category, it is just a synth. And so while I understand that for someone (not for everyone) sampler is good to have working inside Sonar, I do not see why Sonar "need" it, I mean in which part you want Sonar is changed to be more friendly for samplers?
Where did I say that Sonar does not work with samples at all? But the fact is, most of the included options available are antiquated and not very intuitive. Some, so much so, that they haven't even bothered to update some of them to 64 bit. Of course you can still make music without it. Sonar doesn't "need" it in that regard. That's just common sense. Sonar didn't "need" a drum replacer, or a theme editor, or even ARA integration for that matter, but that didn't stop them from developing those things to add value to the program. I just happen to think that a good sampler would also add value to the program. At least for those of us who are more heavily entrenched in the electronic realm of music creation.
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THambrecht
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 05:55:04
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Sampler are actually extinct.
For instruments I use sample libraries such as EastWest, Native instruments ...
and for drums Addictive Drums, Slate Drums ...
The few samples that I still use I drag and drop them direct in the audiotrack.
I also use AKAI MPC which has its own special sampler that integrates per vst into SONAR.
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bladetragic
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 05:59:36
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THambrecht
Sampler are actually extinct.
For instruments I use sample libraries such as EastWest, Native instruments ...
and for drums Addictive Drums, Slate Drums ...
The few samples that I still use I drag and drop them direct in the audiotrack.
I also use AKAI MPC which has its own special sampler that integrates per vst into SONAR.
How are samplers extinct? Kontakt is essentially a sampler and is still going strong as ever. A close friend of mine uses Ableton and they just updated their simpler/sampler with more functionality recently. I can find tons of videos of producers/musicians making use of samplers in their respective software of choice. And how are samplers extinct if you use an Akai MPC sampler? Also, that is a 3rd party option...which you can refer to my two previous posts on that. Samplers are far from "extinct".
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JoseC.
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 06:00:38
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But Sonar has a Simpler kind of sampler. It is called Dropzone.
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bladetragic
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 06:13:08
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JoseC.
But Sonar has a Simpler kind of sampler. It is called Dropzone.
DropZone is ok, and probably the closest thing. But they haven't even bothered to update it to 64bit and the functionality is not near as robust or intuitive as Simpler. Maybe if they took that idea and expanded on it then that may be a good solution, but the fact that they haven't updated it to 64bit makes me think that there may be some unknown issue with it. Edit: After looking at DropZone again, I think that may be a great starting point. It definitely needs an update/overhaul and some additional functionality, but the foundation is there.
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telecharge
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 06:30:30
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bladetragic
DropZone is ok, and probably the closest thing. But they haven't even bothered to update it to 64bit and the functionality is not near as robust or intuitive as Simpler. Maybe if they took that idea and expanded on it then that may be a good solution, but the fact that they haven't updated it to 64bit makes me think that there may be some unknown issue with it.
You're likely wasting your time here. I suggest putting in a feature request and moving on. This is the best post I've seen here on the subject of working with loops: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3480273 You probably know about this, but there is a forum on KVR dedicated to Samplers, Sampling, & Sample Libraries. http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=42
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bladetragic
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 06:33:49
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telecharge
bladetragic
DropZone is ok, and probably the closest thing. But they haven't even bothered to update it to 64bit and the functionality is not near as robust or intuitive as Simpler. Maybe if they took that idea and expanded on it then that may be a good solution, but the fact that they haven't updated it to 64bit makes me think that there may be some unknown issue with it.
You're likely wasting your time here. I suggest putting in a feature request and moving on.
This is the best post I've seen here on the subject of working with loops: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3480273
You probably know about this, but there is a forum on KVR dedicated to Samplers, Sampling, & Sample Libraries.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=42
I assume this will probably get moved to the feature section. If not, I will make a post there.
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Glyn Barnes
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 06:54:30
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2016/10/20 10:12:23
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JoseC.
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 07:15:44
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bladetragic
JoseC.
But Sonar has a Simpler kind of sampler. It is called Dropzone.
DropZone is ok, and probably the closest thing. But they haven't even bothered to update it to 64bit and the functionality is not near as robust or intuitive as Simpler. Maybe if they took that idea and expanded on it then that may be a good solution, but the fact that they haven't updated it to 64bit makes me think that there may be some unknown issue with it.
Edit: After looking at DropZone again, I think that may be a great starting point. It definitely needs an update/overhaul and some additional functionality, but the foundation is there.
+ 1 To the Dropzone overhaul. I confess I am guilty of automatically reaching for Battery for those tasks, but Dropzone should suffice. An update would be great.
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tenfoot
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 07:17:44
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THambrecht
Sampler are actually extinct.
For instruments I use sample libraries such as EastWest, Native instruments ...
and for drums Addictive Drums, Slate Drums ...
Which are pretty much all essentially dedicated samplers:) Glyn Barnes
I suggest the TX16WX a free and very powerful sampler http://www.tx16wx.com/
+1 Glyn. I recently used this to make a vst version of a couple of drum sounds from my old DM5 module that I use frequently. Awesome free sampler!
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gswitz
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 07:21:33
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Excuse me for being uninformed, but is Beatscape a sampler?
I still install that. It is a synth you drop samples into and trigger with touch.
That used to ship with Sonar. It is thirty two bit.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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JohanSebatianGremlin
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 10:11:45
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bladetragic
For an electronic musician/producer, working with samples is THAT critical that I think you turn people off/away if your answer is to search for a 3rd party solution.
I think this is very true. But I think just as valid of an argument could be made that precisely because being able to work with samples is that critical to those musicians, the expectation is that nearly all of them will already have some sort of powerful third party sample solution that they know well and use almost exclusively for their sample needs. I think the perception is if you include any kind of plugin instruments/libraries/samplers etc in your DAW, the people you're including them for are either those who are just starting out and therefore have no other plugins, i.e. 'get you started' type solutions. And those who don't normally use those types of plugins i.e. the guitar player who otherwise would not have any kind of synth plugins.
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THambrecht
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 10:12:18
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Sampler - without a special library - are actually extinct.
All Sampler come now with a rich and special library. For example "Kontakt" from Native Instrument or "Play" from EastWest.
The original "TX16W" (Yamaha) is in my basement. This was a hardware from the 1980's. (About 2.000$)
An empty pure Sampler is out of time.
Long, long, long ago (10 years ??), Cakewalk provided "VSampler" from MAZ-Sound. This company has closed.
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Sidroe
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 10:15:09
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TX16WX gets a HUGE thumbs up here! I used the crap out of VSampler when it became part of Sonars arsenal and was very disappointed when it became pretty much obsolete by staying 32 bit and then being discontinued!
TX16WX has filled that void nicely and the workflow and gui is very similar to VSampler. There is a Pro version that costs you little of nothing but I have been very satisfied with the freebie.
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mettelus
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 10:28:07
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☄ Helpfulby telecharge 2016/10/16 12:58:19
Perhaps I am confused by the OP, but slicing/stretching/layering is way more than "playing back samples." I *believe* that was the OP's point. Unfortunately, the powers that be will tell you "SONAR can already do this (it can actually), with a convoluted work flow." Sampling audio is another matter, but can also be done. Elegant? Nope. Functional? Yes.
Ironically, there are 3rd party tools which are exceptional at certain tasks. There is no reason Cakewalk could not partner with these companies (thus getting integration preference and bug fixes). This would be quicker, more effective, better product, and as bug-free as you could get.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 10:46:47
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☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2016/10/17 20:48:38
I think there's a possible disconnect here. It seems the OP wants a lean, simple way to store samples and trigger them, not necessarily a full-blown, big deal sampler like Kontakt (and I don't think it's necessary to re-invent the wheel anyway).
In addition to the aforementioned DropZone, Session Drummer is good for one-shot samples. But Cyclone is great for that kind of thing - it even has its pads laid out in the usual 4 x 4 matrix, so you can trigger it with all those zillions of controllers that have 16 pads. The main limitation is the pads don't respond to velocity, but the compensation is the way it can work with loops as well as one-shots, and lets you re-arrange slices. If it was velocity-sensitive, it would be a fantastic VI. Beatscape is a similar "matrix" sampler, and does have velocity. Some people find it unstable in their systems, but I don't have problems with it.
I feel part of the perception of SONAR not doing this kind of thing is that the program did groove/loop/sample-oriented stuff before a lot of others. For example it has always handled REX files superbly, even better than Reason until fairly recently. But because it was "so long ago," people overlook those solutions, and that's also why - even though they're perfectly functional - they're perceived as "long in the tooth."
Finally there's Rapture, which does the "big boy" sampler features - keyranges, velocity switching, positional switching, etc. Although limited to six simultaneous samples, you can do a lot with those samples.
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BobF
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 11:06:00
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I kind of like the current approach. Using SONAR as the base with the ability to choose other tools. If Cake were to get serious about providing this functionality they would either have to invest a ton of resources in development, or strike a deal with a 3rd party. The former would almost certainly increase the cost of SONAR to users. The latter would make casual users happy, but would go unused by some as they either don't need it or would choose a 3rd party tool anyway.
I didn't see Matrix View mentioned. I've never given it a serious go ... is it not useful for this kind of thing?
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mettelus
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 11:10:58
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Matrix View is good for firing cells, but not modifying contents or recording to them. MV also has the advantage of looping content while still working/recording a linear track in Track View.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 11:24:35
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I like to think of Sonar as a platform which can be used to take advantage of other great tools.(3rd party plug ins)
You cant compare Ableton or FL studio to Sonar because they are different set ups for different things.
I wouldn't use FL studios to record a Rock band. or Ableton to Record a Jazz band.
Sonar is good at a lot of things. But im not sure sampling is its main thing.
Thus the need for a 3rd party plug in. I've mentioned it before how I would like to see a good sampler in Sonar
(I mean a full tilt up to date sampler) but im perfectly happy with using 3rd party samplers or Session drummer 3 for my needs.
The way I look at it is, if your looking for a Sampler to do half decent professional, or even novice home studio work,
Maybe Sonar shouldn't be your first tool. Ableton or FL Studios should be.
however with Sonar, you can do Pro, Semi Sampling stuff. you just need a 3rd party plug in, or what Sonar has supplied for years to do it.
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AT
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 11:38:09
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☄ Helpfulby telecharge 2016/10/16 12:58:02
Cake has done a pretty good job of sample/loop handling. Loops can be dropped in the time line - if they aren't acidized you can groove clip them in-situ. The Matrix is a nice sample/loop player, although it needs work, more control and better integration into SONAR. There are lots of posts about that and we are still waiting for the promised refinements to come. Beatscape is closest to a sample player, but Cake left it half baked and most of us couldn't get it to sync up and work correctly. I did make an entire song out of the included loops, which were excellent. But if I remember, it didn't do much editing.
Again, what I'd really like to see is the iPad Scratchpad app for Win as a module within SONAR. Scratchpad, although simple, is a great concept, with columns that play different parts of a section and rows that plays different sections. If you had more rows and columns that could follow or lead SONAR itself, edit the samples/loops, and if you could record into the pads live (or at least make it easier than matrix to record new combinations of pads (render column A [or highlighted pads] to a single file) you'd have more than a scratch pad or an arranger. I still think such a critter could give live a go for the money and drag in a lot (more?) DJ/electronic types, kinda like P5 did.
Finally, Cake does come with a sampler - DimPro - although it doesn't edit the sample itself, which I gather is what the OP wants. I've always thought CAKE ought to have a stereo editor, even if it was just the SONAR engine restricted and built-in. Part of having a separate stereo editor is getting the mind into edit mode, not DAWing. I do all my sample editing in Sound Forge, not a sampler. I think many of us do it that way and it would be nice to keep it all in SONAR.
Now, on to others' wishes for SONAR fishes.
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subtlearts
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 16:08:54
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2016/10/20 10:14:14
Glyn Barnes
I suggest the TX16WX a free and very powerful sampler http://www.tx16wx.com/
This was worth reading the whole thread for. Wow, that's seriously a pretty deep looking sampler for no money at all!
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kitekrazy1
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 17:34:02
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Anderton
I think there's a possible disconnect here. It seems the OP wants a lean, simple way to store samples and trigger them, not necessarily a full-blown, big deal sampler like Kontakt (and I don't think it's necessary to re-invent the wheel anyway).
In addition to the aforementioned DropZone, Session Drummer is good for one-shot samples. But Cyclone is great for that kind of thing - it even has its pads laid out in the usual 4 x 4 matrix, so you can trigger it with all those zillions of controllers that have 16 pads. The main limitation is the pads don't respond to velocity, but the compensation is the way it can work with loops as well as one-shots, and lets you re-arrange slices. If it was velocity-sensitive, it would be a fantastic VI. Beatscape is a similar "matrix" sampler, and does have velocity. Some people find it unstable in their systems, but I don't have problems with it.
I feel part of the perception of SONAR not doing this kind of thing is that the program did groove/loop/sample-oriented stuff before a lot of others. For example it has always handled REX files superbly, even better than Reason until fairly recently. But because it was "so long ago," people overlook those solutions, and that's also why - even though they're perfectly functional - they're perceived as "long in the tooth."
Finally there's Rapture, which does the "big boy" sampler features - keyranges, velocity switching, positional switching, etc. Although limited to six simultaneous samples, you can do a lot with those samples.
Ah the often forgotten Cyclone which I believe was ahead of it's time. FL, Live,Studio One have samplers but they don't get much use if you have Kontakt. Wasn't there one in Project 5?
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samson7842
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 18:00:08
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☄ Helpfulby telecharge 2016/10/16 19:09:56
Bruh, I've been saying the same things for years. But, Sonar seems to cater more toward traditional musicians than those of us who use this kind of sampler as the base of our creations. Nevertheless, it's a hole that the bakers should plug if they want to move beyond the perception of Sonar not being up to snuff for serious music/beat making. Don't get me wrong, I love Sonar. And, I'm hoping this will get addressed soon. Here's my original post about the topic: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Please-Please-Please-Give-Us-A-Pad-Based-Drum-Sample-Player-m3197050.aspx
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Yudaidhun
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 18:07:52
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My vote for the update of DropZone and Cyclone.
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timp410
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 18:12:19
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I still miss the workflow that Cakewalk's own Project 5 had. I know some of it was supposed to be integrated into Sonar but it still did not have the same workflow that P5 had. I wish Cakewalk had not abandon it. There are times I have thought about trying to install P5 to see if it will work on a Windows 10 system. The sampler wasn't very easy to use but I use a 3rd party sampler.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar really needs a sampler.
2016/10/16 18:18:10
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☄ Helpfulby wetdentist 2016/10/25 11:15:25
timp410
There are times I have thought about trying to install P5 to see if it will work on a Windows 10 system.
I've heard that it works fine with Windows 10, but only addresses one core in multicore systems.
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