The X1c Info is here

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Bub
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/06 22:58:22 (permalink)
mattox82

The days of physical software bought in stores are numbered
I have to disagree with you on that. The vast majority of people still don't have access to broadband. When you can get broadband anywhere then I'd say different. Otherwise you are alienating way too many potential customers.
if your buying music software you need to download a demo and test it before making a purchase
Would have if we could have. There was no demo of X1 for quite some time after it was released. All we had to go by were the sales advertisements for the product which you should be able to base your purchase off of, wouldn't you think? I saw an awful lot of video's that looked awesome that never mentioned Snap To Grid, Audio-Snap, V-Vocal, the new Pro Channel were not working right, no customization color or tool wise.

So is everyone saying that I should never buy another piece of software ever again and expect it to work? And I should not expect it to be fixed without being charged extra?

Even if it takes 3 ~ 4 years to get a single version of Sonar working, it should be done. There's nothing that says they can't come out with new version upgrades as well as fix what they've already sold. Seems like the only ethical thing to do in my opinion.

And who knows ... we may be beating a dead horse. Maybe they will keep working on X1 until all the bugs are worked out. Unfortunately I didn't get an answer when I asked if there was an X1D planned, so we can't be sure, but with the quick fix program, it looks promising.




post edited by Bub - 2011/08/06 23:01:19

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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/06 23:47:31 (permalink)
Keni


Tho The idea of a scalable GUI is interesting, I'm wondering if part of the reason has to do with DAW's need/ability to add numerous (unlimited?) tracks?

How would the scale deal with this? Would it keep squeezing all the tracks on screen or would there be some way to lock track numbers on screen as well as track heights?

Keni


I have seen different ways that this could be done. One example is as you say squeezing as some DAWs do with their navigator screen and X1 which doesn't. How its done is the province of the developer. A creative approach is what this idea requires. But I do think its sorely needed with the massive variance in displays around.

It would be nice to see the entire project no matter how big it is in track view.    

Best
John
Bub
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/06 23:52:03 (permalink)
I'm not going to rest until this is up to 20 pages, how bout you John?

"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
John
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/06 23:54:28 (permalink)
I'm with you Bub.

BTW some of what you wrote above I agree with.  Not all though.

Best
John
mattox82
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 02:46:16 (permalink)
I'm with you there about the demo bub, should have been out MUCH MUCH earlier,.

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JClosed
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 03:09:52 (permalink)
Well - all I can say is that a lot of people here are underestimating the complexity of software like X1. There are so many types and versions of plugins, types and versions of hardware etc. etc. that testing for every possible permutation is impossible. The only thing a developer can do is taking a broad testers base, and try to get it right. Testing on every possible piece of soft- and hardware would be very, very time consuming and very, very expensive. I theory it could be possible, but it would take 5 years to write the software, and the software would cost around $ 6000.-  to $10,000.- or more. And even then there could be bugs that have to be patched..

And here is when reality sets in. It is impossible to really test every permutation, because it would take years to do so and would cost a enormous amount of money. In the mean time the company has to make money, otherwise it wont survive that long. On top of that new hard- and software is coming out every day, so it is a huge task to keep everything up-to-date.

Take for example sandy-bridge. Motherboards using the H61/H67 express chipsets where not even available on the day X1 hit the streets. And as a result some people with this new chipsets are having unexpected gliches, and blaming Cakewalk. The same goes for new software and "upgrades/patches" for the Operating System, and new drivers for hardware. Al these things can have unexpected side-effects.

And at last.. There is the problem all software has to be compiled to run on the computer. It has to be "translated" from something readable to ones and zeroes. I have met situations the software was programmed perfectly, but the compiler used had some bugs. The result was buggy software. The developers had to wait until the bugs in the compiler where solved. The makers of the compiler where not aware about the specific situation de bugs where emerging - so they had to rewrite a part of the compiler. Using another compiler in the mean time is possible - but that one has its own set of bugs and "work-arounds", and what to do if your "main" compiler is up-to-date again? On top of that - the compiler is low-level machine code that is more depending on hardware then a high-level language like C++ is. When new hardware comes out, parts of the compiler has to be adjusted, what can lead to a whole new set of bugs..

So - expecting software is bug-free when it hits the road is really an illusion. You can expect that sofware that is running good on 653425662431 possible combinations can do something strange when a user has combination 653425662432. Sure - that problem has to be resolved, but this could lead to problems wit combination 5678443, and I don't even dare to talk about combination 653425662430 (yes I am exaggerating a bit here, but you get the picture).

And now - on top of all this above there is a new interface, that a lot of people like but for some led to a jump in the "crusade mode". A lot of "bugs" can be user error, but also new hardware, new software, upgrades, drivers, misconfiguration, hardware failure  - name it..

No - I do not expect the software I buy is totally bug free. X1 is working as expected for the big majority of people. Yes - there are parts the have to be worked on - and that is happening now. Don't expect that everything will be solved tomorrow, because solving things in one part can lead to even bigger problems in another part. I suspect that's the reason some long standing bugs take a long time to resolve. What is the use of "repairing" an annoying graphical bug when as a result the sound gets drop-outs or a insane latency?

Believe me - I am not defending Cakewalk and neither I am a "fanboy", but I simply keep the above in mind. This makes me far less harsh to bugs in software than a lot of other people here. This is a personal opinion tough..

Just my 2 cents...
Freddie H
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 03:59:27 (permalink)
Bub


mattox82

The days of physical software bought in stores are numbered

I have to disagree with you on that. The vast majority of people still don't have access to broadband. When you can get broadband anywhere then I'd say different. Otherwise you are alienating way too many potential customers. 

 



Over 2 Billion Internet Users Worldwide -
 
Go figure why not so many in AFRICA have broadband? Can it be that the majority are poor in AFRICA? The vast MAJORITY in AFRICA give a darn about SONAR X1 or else too. They are just happy if they get Food or water everyday.
Lets talk about potential WORLD AREA there potential users actual live that would buy SONAR X1 or other SOFTWARES. 
 
 
 
Europe= 65% Broadband
USA= 55% Broadband
ASIA & Arab = only 25%-20% because many countires are still very poor. In those states some have alot money because of the oil when the rest more or less live under starvation.. Some can't even read or write..
 


post edited by Freddie H - 2011/08/07 04:04:50


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The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/08/07 08:25:42 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 03:15:56


The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/08/07 08:31:25 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 03:16:05


hellogoodbye
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 09:18:52 (permalink)
Because I have the impression Sonar X1 is still some sort of beta (afaik a lot of X1 owners still use Sonar 8.5 for their actual work), I have been waiting for more info about X1c. Since there (obviously) won't be an X2 this year, X1c should be THE new version. So I expected a impressive list of changes and additions. But the list is rather disappointing... It contains a lot of stuff that makes me think 'Er... shouldn't that have been in the very first version of X1 already...?' or 'Shouldn't that have been fixed with a patch within a week after the release of the very first version'?

Pity. I guess I'll stick with 8.5.

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FastBikerBoy
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 09:31:22 (permalink)
mike_mccue


JClosed said "Well - all I can say is that a lot of people here are underestimating the complexity of software like X1"


That's always possible.

May I ask you... have you considered that a stack of 510,000 mechanical drawings for one project might be equally complex?

510,000 hand made drawings each filled with info and calculations.

What some of us are saying is that we are aware that complex projects are nothing new.





The excuse making is new.


Mike, the V2 was undoubtedly a complex project as I assume Sonar is. Are you suggesting the V2 was a successful & reliable venture with no problems in comparison to Sonar?
The Maillard Reaction
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. 2011/08/07 09:40:23 (permalink)
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 03:16:15


JClosed
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 09:51:59 (permalink)
mike_mccue


JClosed said "Well - all I can say is that a lot of people here are underestimating the complexity of software like X1"


That's always possible.

May I ask you... have you considered that a stack of 510,000 mechanical drawings for one project might be equally complex?

510,000 hand made drawings each filled with info and calculations.

What some of us are saying is that we are aware that complex projects are nothing new.



The excuse making is new.


Yeah sure - all those drawing where made in only one year with a crew from about 15 to 20 people? Really?

Come on - you can do better than that...

And I did not gave any excuse, only an explanation. Don't tell me you are not capable to see it for what it is...

And no. The excuses are not new, because I did not seen any excuses. What is new however on this forum is the constant complaining and sarcastic comments about even the tiniest thing around X1. Even improvements are criticised. It looks like nothing what has been done is met by any positive remark. This is no constructive criticism any more, but just plain complaining and whaling.

Too bad - I visited this forum to learn something and -if possible- help others. Now - when a newcomer asks something, chances are big he is not helped at all, but gets the complete litany how good earlier versions of Sonar where, or a complete set of sarcastic comments.

The negativism is growing over the top, and is becoming childish. I have no other words for it...

Well - said enough. I have work to do, and leave the forum to the chronic complainers...

Whew - nice to have said that. Now it is time to stop complaining about the constant complaining
FastBikerBoy
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 09:53:37 (permalink)
mike_mccue


Do you think I am?

Because if you do... I'm gonna cough.

You can do better than that.

I don't know what you were saying hence the question.

Normally I wouldn't respond to a post like that.... I'd just ignore it...  but I'm trying to demostrate that my appreciation of your acquaintance is greater than the temporary dismay I feel upon receipt of this question.

Why the dismay I was trying to clarify your point which was/is unclear to me at least.

I merely pointed out that three days ago I happened upon a specific fact that serves as an example of tens of thousands of real life projects where complexity is the norm.

As a point of fact, the rocket design worked well enough that the USA used the plans and parts to run 60-70 successful high altitude tests in 1946... a year after we assumed ownership of the information.

But hardly a roaring success especially in it's early days, most post war opinions of so called 'experts' seem to think the project was a waste of resources. Is that what you're suggesting X1 is?

The point I am trying to make is that when a problem surfaced within a project this complex... it was fixed without a minimum of excuse making.

Right it was, I'm pretty sure excuses didn't go down to well in Nazi Germany. Or at least a little worse than they do in the modern free world.



The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 03:16:31


The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 03:16:41


pianodano
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 10:32:57 (permalink)
Aw man. Pfft.   Now that Nazi had been mentioned, I guess the thread is done. Or I should say that is usually the when a thread fizzles.

Best,

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The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 03:16:54


FastBikerBoy
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 11:08:26 (permalink)
I wasn't trying to debate the pros & cons of Nazi Germany or the ethics of the V2 with you.

I thought you were trying to point out that the V2 with it's 510,000 mechanical drawing documents was a complex project that worked well, compared to Sonar. I was going to point out that if that was intention there must be better examples out there given that the V2 was unreliable and inaccurate. i.e. not very good...............

Sorry if I misunderstood you.
The Maillard Reaction
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post edited by The Maillard Reaction - 2019/01/09 03:17:02


thegeek
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 11:49:22 (permalink)
Just hopping in to share my opinion.....

Sure, lets all agree that software is impossible to not have bugs.....

But X1 had a freaking typo....if that doesn't say something about the attention that had been given to its release I dont know what else can....Sorry guys but thats just the way I see it.

I believe Sonar X1 has great potential and I dont disagree that a few bugs can be tolerated...But the way I see it, its initial release was missing essential attention to detail, something that may have "shaken" a lot of loyal Cakewalk customers. And if you have ever run a business, you must know how "harsh" clients are....You can be perfect for 10 years and a single mistake can cost you the client.

Also, and Im ending with this, lets all seperate bugs that are due to hardware and/or software incompatibility and bugs which are proven to be inherent to the program's design and not system related. In the latter case, the "too many systems to test it on" arguement doesnt apply so stop using it, its irrelevant.

And finally, besides bugs, there are design choices. Global "snap to grid"? And you are trying to tell me that a "musician" designed that? Sorry guys, he may be a "musican" but he really cant be a DAW user.
post edited by thegeek - 2011/08/07 11:51:11
Keni
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 12:16:32 (permalink)
John


Keni


Tho The idea of a scalable GUI is interesting, I'm wondering if part of the reason has to do with DAW's need/ability to add numerous (unlimited?) tracks?

How would the scale deal with this? Would it keep squeezing all the tracks on screen or would there be some way to lock track numbers on screen as well as track heights?

Keni


I have seen different ways that this could be done. One example is as you say squeezing as some DAWs do with their navigator screen and X1 which doesn't. How its done is the province of the developer. A creative approach is what this idea requires. But I do think its sorely needed with the massive variance in displays around.

It would be nice to see the entire project no matter how big it is in track view.    


Hi John...

Yes, I would love a scalable gui only if it dealt with this issue well... If it could incorporate the current variations Sonar does (ability to squeeze maximum tracks at track-height cost or "lock" track height and display only as much as will fit with the lock in place)...

This would indeed be very cool... and with only a 19" monitor, I'd feel a lot more comfortable than I do now.... I might even buy a larger 1920x1080 screen which is currently not worth it for me as I would need at least a 1920x1200 to help with track number/count... or even better would be a monitor that supports 2560x1600! But I can't afford any of them.... <sigh>... ;-)

Too bad they didn't do this.... Maybe it's in the plan and part of the reason they changed gui?

Keni


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jbow
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 12:19:43 (permalink)
If a team sitting in a HVAC office in nice comfortable chairs can't nail down the details of a software product they are developing... it is not because their vocation is more complicated than all the other vocations. It's because they operate to a standard that isn't the norm out in the physical world.

 
Perhaps the knwledge that they are not going to be shot if they don't meet their deadline and if the project does not meet the "standards" might have a little to do with it. Plus, these guys in 1945 were working in a new field. Success is always easier in a new field because the expectations are not as high and everything is new and every advance is amazing and exceeds expectations... his designs got us to the moon too.
 
Look at rock and pop music in the 1960s and early 1970s. Hit songs were much easier to write because it was all relatively new. These days it is almost impossible to come up with something original in a classic rock/pop or country genre.
 
On a side note a V2 rocket was horrible ony if you were on the receiving end... it was wonderful if you were firing it. War is funny that way.
 
Perhaps soon we will have nanabots that will from a pseudo organic DAW that will conform to any users whim, will adjust any setting we forget to adjust, and never ever crash... perhaps they will read out facial expressions (squint) and adjust the size of everything to suit our vision until our face looks relaxed.
In the mean time X1 isnt too bad. At least it wont explode and kill you....
 
I am not trying to get on your case Mike, not at all... just saying... things have really advanced in the last 10 years and I truly beieve that we are on the cusp of a real advance. The way coputers are advancing and interfaces are getting so much better... it is going to come together in the next few years and then in a few more years someone will post... Do you remember latency? Do you remember when your DAW would crash. Do you remember when hard drives crashed?
 
Am I too optomisic? I don't think so. I think technology is about to make a quantum leap.... I can feel it. Of curse then the world will end before we get to enjoy it...
 
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 12:20:24 (permalink)
IT HAD A TYPO?

OH MY GOD DEAL BREAKER.

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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 12:24:56 (permalink)
Well - all I can say is that a lot of people here are underestimating the complexity of software like X1. There are so many types and versions of plugins, types and versions of hardware etc. etc. that testing for every possible permutation is impossible. The only thing a developer can do is taking a broad testers base, and try to get it right. Testing on every possible piece of soft- and hardware would be very, very time consuming and very, very expensive. I theory it could be possible, but it would take 5 years to write the software, and the software would cost around $ 6000.- to $10,000.- or more. And even then there could be bugs that have to be patched.. And here is when reality sets in. It is impossible to really test every permutation, because it would take years to do so and would cost a enormous amount of money. In the mean time the company has to make money, otherwise it wont survive that long. On top of that new hard- and software is coming out every day, so it is a huge task to keep everything up-to-date. Take for example sandy-bridge. Motherboards using the H61/H67 express chipsets where not even available on the day X1 hit the streets. And as a result some people with this new chipsets are having unexpected gliches, and blaming Cakewalk. The same goes for new software and "upgrades/patches" for the Operating System, and new drivers for hardware. Al these things can have unexpected side-effects. And at last.. There is the problem all software has to be compiled to run on the computer. It has to be "translated" from something readable to ones and zeroes. I have met situations the software was programmed perfectly, but the compiler used had some bugs. The result was buggy software. The developers had to wait until the bugs in the compiler where solved. The makers of the compiler where not aware about the specific situation de bugs where emerging - so they had to rewrite a part of the compiler. Using another compiler in the mean time is possible - but that one has its own set of bugs and "work-arounds", and what to do if your "main" compiler is up-to-date again? On top of that - the compiler is low-level machine code that is more depending on hardware then a high-level language like C++ is. When new hardware comes out, parts of the compiler has to be adjusted, what can lead to a whole new set of bugs.. So - expecting software is bug-free when it hits the road is really an illusion. You can expect that sofware that is running good on 653425662431 possible combinations can do something strange when a user has combination 653425662432. Sure - that problem has to be resolved, but this could lead to problems wit combination 5678443, and I don't even dare to talk about combination 653425662430 (yes I am exaggerating a bit here, but you get the picture).

 
Man... I couldn't agree more. I have broken too many things in my life trying to fix something else to not understand... (well, really I cannot imagine the complexities involved to geet something like X1 to run well on most computers... it boggles the mind).
 
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 12:27:35 (permalink)
But X1 had a freaking typo

 
You mean it was suposssed to be Z1?? No wonder it has problems...
 
Julien
 
 
 

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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 12:31:09 (permalink)
John T


IT HAD A TYPO?

OH MY GOD DEAL BREAKER.


You can be as sarcastic as you want....

Searching for a translated word for what this (the typo) shows to me (in my native language) the result is:

sketchiness

Now if you choose to ignore it, thats your choice, for me sketchiness in the simplest form of correctly written language in a program IS a deal breaker because it shows that the required attention had not been given to the software release. And besides that, I bet the typo wasnt showing up only in certain hardware/software combos.
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 12:34:25 (permalink)
It's actually a deal breaker? So you've actually stopped using / didn't buy / are demanding a refund / whatever because of this typo? That's what you're telling me?

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thegeek
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 12:40:09 (permalink)
What Im saying, which I really dont know why you cant grasp, is that I have not bought X1 because for reasons only Cakewalk should find out, it seems to me like a not-well-thought-out software product.

Refund? No, because I had the option NOT to buy it, and I didnt. I patiently waited for the demo. See, Im reasonable despite of your efforts to prove me crazy or hyperbolic.

Finally, what Im saying is I refuse to trust a software to work well when it features a TYPO in its GUI upon release. Tell me really, does it sound so alien to you?


PS: last time I saw a typo on a product was on a cheapo chinese electric appliance manual (just to put things into perspective here)
post edited by thegeek - 2011/08/07 12:42:55
yorolpal
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Re:The X1c Info is here 2011/08/07 12:42:09 (permalink)
Now I'm curious...what, exactly, was this typo? 

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