droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 19:37:08
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trimph1
OK...maybe it would be wonderful if everyone did things as real as just a microphone to a tape recorder without all these horrible effects...would that make it better for you?
See, this is why these threads are so childish. I've said probably ten times now that this isn't what I want. But you guys just keep coming back to over and over and over again, as though by attempting to paint me as some sort of luddite extremist you can undermine my position.
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trimph1
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 19:51:38
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droddey
Do you really think that, say, Katy Perry's albums are not extremely edited, tuned, comped, etc... Are you that naive? BTW, just to find out what other people think, I started a thread on Gearslutz about it. Basically everything there thinks you guys are delusional:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/all-about-music/739039-proof-fakery-pop-music.html
Though some folks there take the same position as some here that the don't care, not one person there believes that I'm wrong, and they think that you guys have to be deaf not to hear the fact that somehow all pop music today is perfectly in tune and perfectly in time, and heavily edited. Then of course it immediatley got moved to an obscure section because they don't want this kind of thing being talked about too openly there for the same reasons that most people in the industry don't. And of course others also made the same (obvious) point I did about why it's not talked about.
Still does not make it any better who says it. If all they can do is psychoanalyze their opponents position it really does not bode well. As for Katy Perry....really, I could give a flying toot what her producers do with her recordings. Every single pop record has featured some kind of editing, comping, and who knows what all else. There really is no need to go around blowing the whole thing up into a moral crisis now is there? Really? 
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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UbiquitousBubba
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:15:16
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I can't speak for anyone else here, so I'll speak for myself.
Words cannot express how little I care about what someone on a forum does or does not think about me. Ooh, some anonymous collection of people on a Gearslutz forum think I'm delusional! I don't care. I think this is the central point you're missing. I don't care if you think I am stupid. I don't care what people on another forum think. I don't care what some producer said. I don't care because I am capable of forming my own opinions and thinking for myself.
It just so happens that I don't like some of the trends going on in the industry. I don't need some producer to tell me that. I don't need someone to tell me what to think. I don't care what Katy Perry or any other artist has done on their recordings because it has nothing whatsoever to do with me. I don't care if every single recording produced on this planet uses pitch correction. It doesn't mean that I have to use it.
It's not that I think you're wrong. It's that I don't care. It doesn't upset me that someone used pitch correction. I don't have a personal crisis because someone used timing correction. I don't care.
I've worded this carefully to avoid speaking for anyone else. Others here in this forum and on this thread may have a different position on this. I think it's worth mentioning that this thread started with someone who was sharing a technique he had used. Whether or not I choose to use this tool myself, I can appreciate the effort he put into this.
The only one here who's all upset about what everyone thinks is you. You're upset that some people use these tools. Now you're upset that some people disagree with you. You're running off to another forum to ask them what they think about what we think. You're so worked up about what everyone thinks and trying to argue people into thinking the same way as you, that you haven't bothered to ask, "Does anyone care what I think about this issue?" Maybe if you had treated the OP and others who use these tools with some respect, you would have received a different reaction. If you feel they don't deserve your respect, then this may be a clue why your opinion is not being respected in return.
What you've done here is to launch an attack on a broad group of artists based upon your values, your opinions without any consideration for anyone but yourself. The reason I don't respect your opinions (even if I share your dislike of certain techniques and tools) is because you disrespect those who disagree with you. If you don't like it, that's fine. There's an awful lot of music out there I can't stand. There's no reason to come in here and start putting down people who view things differently than you. That's why I don't care.
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:21:37
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Sorry, dude. You just made all of that last part up out of the thin air. I'm not 'upset', I'm concerned about what this kind of lack of integrity in the creation of music does to music long term. I like music, so of course I would be concerned about something that I think is not doing it any favors. Why is it that if other people on a thread like this yell and at me and call me all sorts of stuff, while I just dispassionately argue my point, that somehow I'm the one all worked up and they are the poor helpless folks who are being bullied? How come, if they taunt me for providing no other corroborating evidence, that I'm now somehow doing something wrong. They wanted more, I tried to get more. A lot of professionals hang out there. Why do I get the impression that no matter what I do, I'll be accused of being horrible, no matter what anyone else calls me or how they make fun of me, or whatever I provide to back up my position, which they are doing with equal force? Why am I 'angry' but they aren't when they are being considerably more aggressive than I am? Why is it that my opinion is an 'attack', while theirs isn't? Why is it an 'attack' on an artist to try to get them to be clear about how they make their music? If you don't think there's anything substandard about it, then how is it an attack? It's could only even be considered an 'attack' if you believe that they would somehow stand to lose by having to admit it, as best I can tell. And I'm not making an attack anyway. I'm arguing for honesty about the process. If that's an attack, then I'm afraid we'll have to disagree on what an attack is.
post edited by droddey - 2012/06/21 20:40:57
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:40:54
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Katy Perry's a fairly good singer and guitar player. She's not Joni Mitchell or anything, but she's pretty good, strong voice, good pitch, quite a range. Like most of what you've been saying, you're talking from a position of ignorance based on your existing musical prejudices.
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:42:52
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John T
Katy Perry's a fairly good singer and guitar player. She's not Joni Mitchell or anything, but she's pretty good, strong voice, good pitch, quite a range. Like most of what you've been saying, you're talking from a position of ignorance based on your existing musical prejudices.
Again, making things up. I never said she wasn't at least a decent singer. I'm a decent singer for that matter. But what do her albums sound like in comparison? And if they don't sound the same, why do here albums sound different. Could it be that the things I'm talking about are being done, despite your constant attempts to make fun of that claim?
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:43:02
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As for gearslutz, there's a lot of large talk over there. The membership of that place is not significantly weighted towards professional producers and engineers as far as I can tell.
post edited by John T - 2012/06/21 20:50:57
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trimph1
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:44:54
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdTVNbDT_8M&feature=related Therion...great stuff...lots of passion here. Well, for me, all I can say is that you do come across as a kind of crusader for your cause. There is an underlying note of spiritual warrior about how you conduct this crusade and that may be the point here. I've come across people who actually thought that all you needed was a tape recorder and a good microphone who did this very same thing..it amounted to a kind of minimalism. auditory minimalism if one could call it that. I know a couple of musicians here that are into that and they do not bother themselves with what someone in popular music is doing. Oh...and thinking that the average listener is totally naive about how things are done is kind of a bit naff as far as I am concerned...I already knew that recordings were not the actual performance way back in the early 1960's ...and even before ....
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:45:12
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Why should her records sound the same? Records and live shows are different things.
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:45:35
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I can hardly think of *anyone* whose records and live shows sound the same, in fact.
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trimph1
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:48:00
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droddey
John T
Katy Perry's a fairly good singer and guitar player. She's not Joni Mitchell or anything, but she's pretty good, strong voice, good pitch, quite a range. Like most of what you've been saying, you're talking from a position of ignorance based on your existing musical prejudices.
Again, making things up. I never said she wasn't at least a decent singer. I'm a decent singer for that matter. But what do her albums sound like in comparison? And if they don't sound the same, why do here albums sound different. Could it be that the things I'm talking about are being done, despite your constant attempts to make fun of that claim?
I'd like to see anyone come across exactly like a one to one correspondence to their recording...and, again, we are kind of underestimating the intelligence of the average listener here... Plato's Cave and all that...
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:51:55
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It's just not the same. There's a difference between the very less than optimal circumstances of a live situation causing performances to be less technically correct than they can be in the much more controlled studio situation. Long before there were all these modern corrective tools studio albums sounded better for that incredibly obvious reason. That's not what is being discussed here, clearly. We are talking about a album that the artist cannot actually have done. Not that someone did ten takes and kept the best one, which is a fairly common way to get optimal performances in the studio. But that the performance is edited, gridded, tuned, and highly automated, turning a 'decent' singer performance into a perfect pitch performance. It just isn't the same thing.
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 20:53:16
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Where do you stand on Strawberry Fields? That can't be played live to sound that way either.
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:00:34
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Where are you getting this live vs. studio thing. I never brought that up. You keep putting those words into my mouth. Plenty of bands record things that can't be played by the band live, not because the band can't play the parts, but because there are more parts than the band themselves can play at once. Some use sound effects, but I'm pretty sure no one thinks that they made the sound effects with their mouths or something. Again, I'm not going to be dragged into a nitpicky argument. I keep getting accused of trying to set rules for other people, when I'm not at all. You guys are the ones who seem to have to have some sort of rule book. Integrity doesn't require a set of guidelines. When people try to keep coming up with a 'but they did this, so why can't I do that' type of argument, that's for children in my opinion. Grownups don't do that.
post edited by droddey - 2012/06/21 21:03:17
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:02:45
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WHAAAAA? You never brought it up? It's *exactly* what you've been banging on about.
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:03:07
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Cognitive dissonance, that's what this all is.
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:04:35
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John T
WHAAAAA? You never brought it up? It's *exactly* what you've been banging on about.
I have not. My arguments have been about the manipulation of performances to be far better than the artist can actually do, and not being honest about that fact. It never had anything to do with live vs. studio performance.
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:05:11
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This passive-aggressive schtick is really grating too. "I'm not setting any rules, I'm just saying that any of you using these tools is a morally bad, dishonest, cheat". Oh, okay, that's not offensive at all.
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:06:58
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Your unwillingness to engage with any specifics is absurd. Where do you stand on Strawberry Fields? Where do you stand on Chuck Berry? These aren't rhetorical questions, I'd genuinely like to know.
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:07:09
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John T
This passive-aggressive schtick is really grating too. "I'm not setting any rules, I'm just saying that any of you using these tools is a morally bad, dishonest, cheat". Oh, okay, that's not offensive at all.
You obviously never bother to read anything. I never said any such thing. I said to use them to create performances beyond the capacity of the artist, but never admit it is the problem. I've said probably ten times in this thread that if people were honest about it, I wouldn't have a problem. You really need to take the time to read the things you are responding to.
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John T
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:07:46
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Actually, no, you know, I retract that. Blocked. If I come back to this thread, somebody shoot me.
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:12:56
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John T
Your unwillingness to engage with any specifics is absurd. Where do you stand on Strawberry Fields? Where do you stand on Chuck Berry? These aren't rhetorical questions, I'd genuinely like to know.
Where do I 'stand' on them? I like The Beatles. I'm asking people to take musicianship seriously, to stop making themselves out to to be more perfect than they are. The Beatles were excellent musicians, they used vastly more primitive equipment than available today and created amazing music. That music had plenty of actual human flaws in it, and that, IMO, makes it superior to hyper perfected music. That doesn't mean nothing today is good. There's music being made today that has those human flaws. It just doesn't seem to be very acceptable in pop music these days.
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trimph1
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:14:08
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droddey
It's just not the same. There's a difference between the very less than optimal circumstances of a live situation causing performances to be less technically correct than they can be in the much more controlled studio situation. Long before there were all these modern corrective tools studio albums sounded better for that incredibly obvious reason. That's not what is being discussed here, clearly. We are talking about a album that the artist cannot actually have done. Not that someone did ten takes and kept the best one, which is a fairly common way to get optimal performances in the studio. But that the performance is edited, gridded, tuned, and highly automated, turning a 'decent' singer performance into a perfect pitch performance. It just isn't the same thing.
OK...now the issue gets a little clearer. Which artist was it that 'created'-is that the word I'm looking for here-this particular gem? Are we talking about postumously written things here? Or, are we talking records like the Archies? Josie and the Pussy Cats? Or some created out of thin air singer/songwriter who was the product of a producers nightmare....something like..oh ...say...Rebecca Black? Who are we talking about here...name names. If you are going to claim someone did this then finger them...
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:14:40
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John T
Actually, no, you know, I retract that. Blocked. If I come back to this thread, somebody shoot me.
Excellent, you accuse me of things I never said, then you block me when I point out that you did so. You can easily go back through this thread and find that said exactly that. That I'd have no problem with it if people were honest about it. I said it multiple times. But you were too busy trying to come up with pithy reparte I guess to bother reading what I'm actually saying.
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:19:45
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trimph1
OK...now the issue gets a little clearer. Which artist was it that 'created'-is that the word I'm looking for here-this particular gem?
Are we talking about postumously written things here?
Or, are we talking records like the Archies? Josie and the Pussy Cats?
Or some created out of thin air singer/songwriter who was the product of a producers nightmare....something like..oh ...say...Rebecca Black?
Who are we talking about here...name names.
If you are going to claim someone did this then finger them... You know perfectly well that the pop albums being put out now could not possibly have been created without extensive manipulation. If you don't then, well I'm sorry you can't hear well enough to tell it. I'm not talking about imaginary bands, but bands selling lots of albums right now with their faces on the covers. You have to realize don't you that no one plays in perfect timing, no one sings in perfect pitch, background vocals never line up perfectly with the singer, that snare drums don't have two velocities, right? But all those things happen on pop music regularly these days. But of course rather than think through the obvious answer, you are just going to continue to go nah, nah, nay, Dean can't prove who does it. It's been pointed out already WHY you cannot find anyone who will admit doing it. But, unless you believe that the things above actually happen when people really record, then why exactly do you need someone to do so publically?
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trimph1
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:30:52
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droddey
trimph1
OK...now the issue gets a little clearer. Which artist was it that 'created'-is that the word I'm looking for here-this particular gem?
Are we talking about postumously written things here?
Or, are we talking records like the Archies? Josie and the Pussy Cats?
Or some created out of thin air singer/songwriter who was the product of a producers nightmare....something like..oh ...say...Rebecca Black?
Who are we talking about here...name names.
If you are going to claim someone did this then finger them...
You know perfectly well that the pop albums being put out now could not possibly have been created without extensive manipulation. If you don't then, well I'm sorry you can't hear well enough to tell it. I'm not talking about imaginary bands, but bands selling lots of albums right now with their faces on the covers. You have to realize don't you that no one plays in perfect timing, no one sings in perfect pitch, background vocals never line up perfectly with the singer, that snare drums don't have two velocities, right? But all those things happen on pop music regularly these days.
But of course rather than think through the obvious answer, you are just going to continue to go nah, nah, nay, Dean can't prove who does it. It's been pointed out already WHY you cannot find anyone who will admit doing it. But, unless you believe that the things above actually happen when people really record, then why exactly do you need someone to do so publically?
Oh..so NO ONE has perfect pitch, NO ONE has perfect timing, NO ONE has vocals lining up with vocals et cetera. And you accuse others of being nitpicky...sheeesh. Now, since you pretty well established that the whole recording industry has gone to H in a handbasket, maybe you..in your wisdom have the perfect system that would educate everyone as to the kind of sham that it has become? I can see this now, Parental Guidance stickers that proclaim that not only do the lyrics use cuss words and such but that they cheated by using all these new tools of EVIL as well.... 
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:43:48
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trimph1
Oh..so NO ONE has perfect pitch, NO ONE has perfect timing, NO ONE has vocals lining up with vocals et cetera. And you accuse others of being nitpicky...sheeesh.
Now, since you pretty well established that the whole recording industry has gone to H in a handbasket, maybe you..in your wisdom have the perfect system that would educate everyone as to the kind of sham that it has become?
I can see this now, Parental Guidance stickers that proclaim that not only do the lyrics use cuss words and such but that they cheated by using all these new tools of EVIL as well....
Wow, I feel like your responses are just not in any way in sync what what I'm saying. What does nitpicky have to do with what i said. My nitpicky comment was because peole keep trying say say "well, what if so and so did this", trying to make it into some sort of detailed arguement about whether this or that is 'ok'. I'm not trying to tell people what is OK. My point is that clearly all those things I said were being done are regularly being done. Everyone ridiculed my claim, when clearly it's true. If everyone hadn't be so snarky I wouldn't have pushed it so hard. But ultimately the point of that claim is not to say that everything is doomed. I've said so many times now I'm trying to set rules, but you guys cannot seem to get it through your heads that I'm not trying to impose my will on the world. I'm ASKING for people to be more honest about the process. I've said time and again that honesty about the process is my main concern, that if people would be open about the fact that they can't sing like that, that they can't play like that, then I'd not be bothering to worry about it. The problem is that they don't do that, and therefore it's now become an arms race, just like the loudness war was an arms race. If you don't have someone edit your song into inhuman perfection then it's not competitive, at least in the pop landscape. I don't see how that's good for music. It doesn't allow for as much differentiation in the pop world as would be possible if this perfection race hadn't gotten to where it is. I don't worry about EDM musicans putting out hyper perfected music because it's not presented as anything but computer created music.
post edited by droddey - 2012/06/21 21:46:49
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trimph1
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 21:55:47
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You know, I gave a speech at a local high school, of all things, on the topic of record producing...somebody heard that I was doing summat here at my home...  ..so I gave them this talk. And, you know? The kids there were very well acquainted with those tools...it was not as if they were hicks from the sticks here. And I did get into the implications of using these tools...but there was one thing that I left out. Reason? We are seeing people using it now..how is going and telling people that it is dishonest going to make it less of a problem? The idea of an explanation as to how the thing is used in the context of a particular record might be an idea...but my question then becomes...and how many people read their CD cover? And, if it is via download...how are we going to slip that information in then? are we going to ask eMusic and iTunes to do that?
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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droddey
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 22:06:30
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Again, I'm not asking for a compaign to force anyone to do anything. But clearly if artists would be more candid about it in public, the public would become more aware of what is going on. Few lay people knew about or understood the loudness war per se until it finally began getting talked about outside of industry fora and such. People understand what Autotune is due to it's effecty use, I don't think most people understand it's more subtle uses so much, and how ubiquitous that is. In terms of giving a talke to kids, I would think that explaining that what you hear on the radio is not something that you are ever going to accomplish as an actual musician would be a start. So that they know that the fact that they can't sing like that or play a single groove to atomic perfection for four minutes without flaw and whatnot isn't because they suck. It's because the performances are not real. I would think that they would be a help to them. It doesn't have to be done in a judgemental way. That's not a judgement to say that, it's a fact. And to explain the continuum of processing available from naturalistic jazz up to highly produced pop, making them aware of what various points on that continuum sound like, so that they can learn what raw vs. highly processed really sounds like.
post edited by droddey - 2012/06/21 22:07:44
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trimph1
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Re:The Zen of Audiosnap
2012/06/21 22:15:26
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQVXXy_jJIk&feature=related Of course. I did not even have to specifically mention the issue of singing like that either...they already knew that. That was why they asked about autotune ..... By the way ... Micheal Rother(Neu) and friends....I've gotten to the point of being able to somewhat get into this groove drumming....
post edited by trimph1 - 2012/06/21 22:17:23
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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