I've got nothing against subs.  I've used one off and on over the last 10 or so years (I'm currently in "off" mode).  And while YMMV for me I mix better in my room without one.  Perhumps if I ever finally "shoot my room" with my JBL MSC thingy I might change my mind.  And, kind of like this blog, I don't "really" have any tech specs to bolster my argument.  But I'm in the HPF bunch and the critical listening bunch and the don't mix so dang loud bunch.  A subwoofer, placed incorrectly or used incorrectly can potentially do as much damage as good.  That's my story and I'm stickin to it.  Or am I?

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
] 

May I also ask this? What is with the level of cynicism and mistrust that finds its way into just about everything here?...

Yeah we're trying to sell subs so we pre-empted with a blog post about subs. C'mon - that's silly. 

+1

Lately, I've found the level of cynicism here so bad that I literally have to mentally prepare myself to visit the Cakewalk forums. This year for the first time ever I've even start adding people to the 'blocked list'. Some solely because of the absurb amount of negativity that they seem to be capable of generating, regardless of the topic.

-e.B

Eric Beam


It's a valid blog post & I don't see any "marketing" involved. 2.1 setups for music can be ideal for home/project studios. I've tuned post production/music rooms for many years now & have used subs for along time. No nearfield is going to push any significant amount of air below 40hz. Lucky if they handle below 80hz with flat response.

What the post could of added was a simple setup procedure if room tuning isn't an option. Subs are easier so setup then most people think.
Ideally you would use an RTA but it's not needed for personal use.

1. check the specification of your nearfields & based on frequency response decide on a crossover point.
2. Set sub to the estimated crossover point.
3. Play a selection of music to know VERY well & adjust sub level until it hits that "sweet spot". Trust your ears, you know what sounds good. Don't worry if it's technically flat, this room is for you to mix by. As long as you have referenced it to known content you can make informed mix decisions. Simple as that.

Excellent points and advice Eric.

I feel it also, and it's one of the reasons I don't visit here much or rarely post. This forum has a nasty reputation, and it seems that if you really cared about how your product is perceived, you would do something about it. I know I'm not the only one that's sick of it. The cakewalk forum seems to be the 4chan of audio sites. 

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk

]

May I also ask this? What is with the level of cynicism and mistrust that finds its way into just about everything here? Why is it curious that employees offer opinions and insights into what they think is important, or just cool/fun/etc,  in today's world of recording? It's a blog post. Some see evil machinations in everything. If anything it's only to call attention to the blog and inform about Cakewalk and recording in general. It's intended to be useful information for the reader, whether a SONAR user or not.

Yeah we're trying to sell subs so we pre-empted with a blog post about subs. C'mon - that's silly.

On my behalf I was not cynical but in my opinion there are better alternatives for hobby mixers to control low end than just adding a subwoofer.  It will not give you immediately better results because you'll have to learn mixing with subwoofer first.  Subwoofer is almost useless until you have a good, well treated room with enough space; you can hear if there is "a lot of" or "not so much" low end but you're not able to hear anything accurately. 

Of course it's not possible to make a comprehensive presentation of low end mixing in one post. That's why discussion continued here; to give alternative opinions and points of view. 



It's not just a blog post. It's Cakewalk's blog post! It gets more attention than some anonymous blogs from unknown sources. Cakewalk means recording knowledge and professionalism. 

The next blog post subject could be room treatment and setting up monitoring system. It has far more influence on the mixes than any plugin you use. New brickwall limiter or $$L compressor may improve your sound in the last 0.1 dB but a few acoustic panels in the right spots may improve mixes 9 dB.  

Blue Sky makes some of the best-reviewed, best-bang-for-the-buck studio monitoring systems available and they've incorporated subs since day one.  I wish I still had my old Media Desk 2.1 rig.  Blue Sky Systems

panup

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

There's so much more to this than "some rumble" and it can't be fixed with filters if you want information down there. Yes with acoustic instruments you can filter out unwanted low frequencies, but it's hard to make bass-centric music without hearing what many of your listeners will be hearing. 

You're right, Brandon. I just want to add that subwoofer is not the only piece of equipment you need. Good room and bass traps make HUGE influence because you need to achieve tight, controlled bass sound, not just more low end in general. 

I think it's great you open discussion about these kind of subjects. :-)

And it's good info Panu, for sure. And important for people to know.

If you want to mix great sounding bass for dance music take it out on the balcony and let it all blow by you where it can never reflect back into your ears.

Then you can get funky with the bass and get everyone down on the street dancing too.

Just saying.

... and don't ask me how I know.

:-)

best regards,
mike

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Another thing about subs. A lot of people equate sub with "loud" or "loud bass". On the contrary, having a sub can allow you to actually mix at lower levels. Smaller monitors often need to be pushing quite hard to generate the lowest frequencies they are capable of. Having a sub takes the stress off the smaller drivers and allows them to work more efficiently and at arguably lower mixing levels.

Which, actually is the opposite of having a sub in order to mix "bigger bass."  if you use a sub and can hear the bass you normally wouldn't hear without the sub, then you're going to mix the bass lower than you would if you can't hear the bass - because when you can't hear it well, you're going to turn it up until you do!

I think a subwoofer is a great idea. Infact I have my mind set on one, they dont cost much either and I think it would be an asset not a hindrance to the process.

It was just a strange topic that came out of the blue I guess. Plus shouldn't this be in the techniques or hardware forums???

I would hate to think that Brandon is not thinking that i am being cynical. I work with 6 inch speakers and they sound great but some frequencies are heard more than others depending on the actual recording or CD. A Sub would boost the range for more accurate listening.

If you have an idea which Sub would be best please tell. I have been looking at the KRK subs. You can play them at extremely low frequencies and still pick up the clean signal of the bass.

Beagle

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Another thing about subs. A lot of people equate sub with "loud" or "loud bass". On the contrary, having a sub can allow you to actually mix at lower levels. Smaller monitors often need to be pushing quite hard to generate the lowest frequencies they are capable of. Having a sub takes the stress off the smaller drivers and allows them to work more efficiently and at arguably lower mixing levels.

Which, actually is the opposite of having a sub in order to mix "bigger bass."  if you use a sub and can hear the bass you normally wouldn't hear without the sub, then you're going to mix the bass lower than you would if you can't hear the bass - because when you can't hear it well, you're going to turn it up until you do!

Yup - exactly.

ba_midi

Brandon, 

Well, you didn't quote anyone, and you didn't point out who you are referring to -- but since you ask "why is it curious?" and I used the words "curious" in my post, I'm going to assume you're directing some of your reply to me.

And my answer is ...


- Posting about sub woofers in the Sonar area (as opposed to techniqus or hardware, etc) seemed a bit out of place for  CW staf member.    And, as others have pointed out, the post and blog post were lacking in the "why" one needs a sub info.


As for cynicism, I think you may be too sensitive, but at the same time, I agree there is a degree of that - and it does go on here on the forums.  That seems normal to me (forums being public places for the most part).  And i think there have been things said and done by both users and Cakewalk-ers alike that cause that.  


It takes two to tango, as the old saying goes.


But, in this particular case I think it's just a matter of something being posted that seemed a bit out of the blue, given the other types of discussions that usually take place in this particular forum "area."


I don't see anyone suggesting there's "evil", however; so as I said, you maybe a bit too close to all this and therefor see things that aren't there as well.




And, in line with this topic/thread, I myself have and occasionally use a Sub to check mixes and insure the lower end is not causing issues.  But I also think it's an area that needs a deeper discussion than was provided by the post or the blog, as subs can be misused/misunderstood easily.

I didn't mean to single you out Billy. But it's true that your comments at least in part contributed to my statements - in this case anyway.

Anyway on the subject, I guess we can agree to disagree. But I think as is evident from a number of other forum member's comments that I'm not the only one that sees an unnecessary degree of cynicism and sus-picion. I hear it "offline" as well. I don't think it has anything to do with my level of sensitivity. I'm simply and genuinely perplexed that a mixing tip via blog would be seen as a marketing gimmick to sell subwoofers that don't exist. Everything doesn't have an "angle". Sometimes stuff "just is". 

I think we should all use Occam's Razor a bit more.. The simplest explanation for the forum post was that it was simply calling attention to the blog, which is rather more active than in the past. In hopes to steer conversation to more productive topics that might help people use SONAR.

Worked like charm huh? 

OK, enough hugging you guys. Let's get back to why we're here.

Since CW isn't in the sub business, let's let the recommendations fly folks. I saw a couple already, but what brand sub do you like and why? Personally I'm in a small studio, so I was thinking an 8".

Another question: I get the part about matching the crossover freq. of the sub with the nearfields, but what do we do when we have 3 sets of monitors with different crossovers? If I compromise on the crossover freq., will I be introducing phase issues?  Thanks!

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

 

I didn't mean to single you out Billy. But it's true that your comments at least in part contributed to my statements - in this case anyway.

Anyway on the subject, I guess we can agree to disagree. But I think as is evident from a number of other forum member's comments that I'm not the only one that sees an unnecessary degree of cynicism and sus-picion. I hear it "offline" as well. I don't think it has anything to do with my level of sensitivity. I'm simply and genuinely perplexed that a mixing tip via blog would be seen as a marketing gimmick to sell subwoofers that don't exist. Everything doesn't have an "angle". Sometimes stuff "just is". 

I think we should all use Occam's Razor a bit more.. The simplest explanation for the forum post was that it was simply calling attention to the blog, which is rather more active than in the past. In hopes to steer conversation to more productive topics that might help people use SONAR.

Worked like charm huh? 

I look at it this way Brandon....this is your forum with your company name all over the forum. You and your staff should post whatever you feel has value to offer to the community. If someone decides to read further into it as some sort of ploy, so be it. You'll never stop that from happening. That's like if someone came to my site where I was talking about something that may imply some sort of purchase....even if the purchase didn't put money into my pocket....so be it. It's my site...my name is on it...people are there for me or a product I'm pushing/talking about. That's totally credible no matter what.
 
As for the sub, include me in with you guys because I think it's the 5th most important thing we can add to our list. That list being...
 
1. Good monitors
2. Room/monitor correction
3. Good pc and DAW software
4. Soundcard with decent converters
5. A sub
 
Give me the above with a Realtek soundcard and ASIO4ALL drivers and I'll never disappoint. Of course I prefer the FF 800 or my trusty Layla 24/96's....but I'll kick butt with a Realtek any day. :)
 
Some guys get lucky with nearfields only, others do not and I'm one of them. My mixes didn't improve until I added the sub to my arsenal. Without the sub, I was always adding bass to my mixes that I never heard with nearfields alone. Of course just adding that sub didn't fix specific areas of low end that were killing me, but it stopped my mixes from being bass heavy and then further tuning honed in on the correct frequencies so I heard what I was supposed to hear.
 
I recommend a sub to everyone I talk to that asks me about recording. All my students I teach, all the regular people I talk to and anyone that asks me how I get the sounds I get on my mixes. Without my sub, I'll mix bass heavy every time. I have a great selection of monitors here. As soon as I kill that sub, I'm like a fish out of water. I'd never be able to gauge the proper amount of bass. For those that can do that without a sub, God bless you...you're ahead of we that can't do that. And guess what, just because your gifted doesn't mean that others will have your experience. :) Your room is different, your ears are different, your monitors are different and someone without a sub could possibly experience more issues than someone that does have a sub.
 
If not having one works for you, so be it. If not having one is making some of you second guess the low end in your mixes or you find yourselves mixing bass heavy or taking notes in your car while coming back into your studio to make changes that you can't hear anyway, a sub very well could help you as well as some room/monitor tuning. But the sub will at least assist you with the bass heavy mixes. It will be up to you to tune what frequencies need adjustments at some point....but bass heavy shouldn't be something you experience anymore.
 
And, if the sub makes you mix bass light, decrease the sub a bit until you find that happy medium. Trust me...it will help you more than it will hurt you. You just have to set the level right...which may take a few mixes. I'd be lost without mine though, that's for sure.
 
-Danny

I must agree that even a simple/normal/tiny/whatever thread turns pretty quik into rock n roll those dayz here !! lol

Brandon have you tried the new roland  systems ? i have a freind that was surprised and compared it to a genelec  without having to be ashamed bout it !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ykaVOkoIr0