Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]

So I was driving home from the grocery store tonight as I was listening to NFL Radio over satellite. The talk show had an ex-player on as a guest host who's voice over was incredibly boomy, so much so that every plosive sounded like an 808 sub kick bass through my car's sound system.

I'm guessing that whoever was mixing the show was doing so on small monitors. Otherwise, he/ she would have heard the ridiculous (not normal radio ridiculous but stupid ridiculous) amount of sub frequencies in this guys voice and would have put on a high pass filter.

In their case, adding a sub to their system would have made this problem obvious to the engineer, in which case I'm betting it would have been fixed.

I'm not telling you to get a sub, not trying to sell you anything. I'm simply sharing with you an experience, one which I encounter all to often when listening to broadcast radio and TV. 

Mike T, the author of the Blog post, was doing the exact same thing.

And I'm not trying to debate one way or the other if you should add a sub to your system or not. Use a sub and it works for you? Cool. Not into subs and prefer mixing on a 2.0 system? Whatever works for ya.

What's important to understand, though, is that those of us at Cakewalk who are a part of the Blog are choosing to share parts of the knowledge that we've collectively built up over our decades of combined experience as musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters, and enthusiasts. 

Believe it or not, we're actually into the same stuff you are and are happy to have a platform like the blog in which to share that knowledge and enthusiasm with you all.

Its worth keeping that in mind when posting bout said blogs as, to be honest, we take it to heart. After all, these blog posts aren't commercials or copy, they're our experiences, our knowledge, and our thoughts on the things we're most passionate about.

So, weather or not you use a sub or not is entirely up to you, and I wish you the best of success either way. Just remember that the faces in the pictures on the blog are people, too.

SP

You are guessing that the show was mixed... which is a very big assumption.

If that show had a big old sub woofer in the production chain there probably wouldn't actually be a human listening to it anyway. That's my assumption, but it's qualified somewhat by the fact that I work for NFL Network television production frequently and I have observed first hand how the radio programming is produced. But, I encourage anyone truly interested to call NFL radio and ask how they do it.


Furthermore, if someone is spitting into the mic with plosives then the disruption is going all the way up to 200Hz and any high school AV kid will hear it in the production chain with a small 2" built in appliance speaker in a rack somewhere.

Additionally, Satellite radio talk shows on Satellite radio are the most heavily compressed audio streams you will probably encounter... do you really think the plosive was "sub" content rather than all over the lower mid spectrum? Most of the compression schemes yank away everything that isn't expected to be necessary before it gets squeezed and sent to the "bird".




A public misuse of logic to support a premise, no matter how casually delivered or passionately felt subverts Cakewalk's credibility.




This was my original criticism about the original blog. It included cliches, bad logic, and made up assumption-facts. The blog essentially told me why Mike thought he needed a subwoofer... the blog didn't even support it's own title, which was "why you need a Subwoofer".

That is why I advise that Cakewalk put together some two person blogging teams... every good writer needs a good editor. If a true experienced print content editor isn't possible then you guys might consider helping each other out as partners. Bounce the ideas around, rarefy the ideas down to the essence of the message, work the thought so that it can stand on it's own merits. Scrutinize the article for embarrassing or revealing misuse of logic. Endeavor to make sure the facts are actually facts.  That sort of stuff is really helpful and the finished articles will be so much more useful both as outreach for Cakewalk and as information for Cakewalk's customers (PLEASE notice that I didn't say consumer).

I wasn't criticizing the blog for it's lack of detail... which I think may have been Brandon's impression. We can see a detailed explanation of subwoofers at the Bob Katz article that Jeff linked too. I was simply saying that an international corporation shouldn't try to present fallacy to an audience that is qualified to recognize the lack of accurate content.

Honestly, presenting badly formulated non-logic as if it is the result of "decades of combined experience as musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters, and enthusiasts." just doesn't look good.


I don't expect anyone to appreciate this critique today... hopefully down the road it may sink in and prove helpful.



Sincerely wishing you the very best.
mike




 

Jesus H.

Jaw dropping.

I like subs, but I think they are aimed at big studios rather than the humble home studio guy. So hearing this from Cake feels like a kick in the teeth.

But at the same time I like the product can't wait for X1d you know that will make it work for me.

Roll On Sunday!

mike_mccue

Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk]

So I was driving home from the grocery store tonight as I was listening to NFL Radio over satellite. The talk show had an ex-player on as a guest host who's voice over was incredibly boomy, so much so that every plosive sounded like an 808 sub kick bass through my car's sound system.

I'm guessing that whoever was mixing the show was doing so on small monitors. Otherwise, he/ she would have heard the ridiculous (not normal radio ridiculous but stupid ridiculous) amount of sub frequencies in this guys voice and would have put on a high pass filter.

In their case, adding a sub to their system would have made this problem obvious to the engineer, in which case I'm betting it would have been fixed.

I'm not telling you to get a sub, not trying to sell you anything. I'm simply sharing with you an experience, one which I encounter all to often when listening to broadcast radio and TV. 

Mike T, the author of the Blog post, was doing the exact same thing.

And I'm not trying to debate one way or the other if you should add a sub to your system or not. Use a sub and it works for you? Cool. Not into subs and prefer mixing on a 2.0 system? Whatever works for ya.

What's important to understand, though, is that those of us at Cakewalk who are a part of the Blog are choosing to share parts of the knowledge that we've collectively built up over our decades of combined experience as musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters, and enthusiasts. 

Believe it or not, we're actually into the same stuff you are and are happy to have a platform like the blog in which to share that knowledge and enthusiasm with you all.

Its worth keeping that in mind when posting bout said blogs as, to be honest, we take it to heart. After all, these blog posts aren't commercials or copy, they're our experiences, our knowledge, and our thoughts on the things we're most passionate about.

So, weather or not you use a sub or not is entirely up to you, and I wish you the best of success either way. Just remember that the faces in the pictures on the blog are people, too.

SP

You are guessing that the show was mixed... which is a very big assumption.

If that show had a big old sub woofer in the production chain there probably wouldn't actually be a human listening to it anyway. That's my assumption, but it's qualified somewhat by the fact that I work for NFL Network television production frequently and I have observed first hand how the radio programming is produced. But, I encourage anyone truly interested to call NFL radio and ask how they do it.

Furthermore, if someone is spitting into the mic with plosives then the disruption is going all the way up to 200Hz and any high school AV kid will hear it in the production chain with a small 2" built in appliance speaker in a rack somewhere.

Additionally, Satellite radio talk shows on Satellite radio are the most heavily compressed audio streams you will probably encounter... do you really think the plosive was "sub" content rather than all over the lower mid spectrum? Most of the compression schemes yank away everything that isn't expected to be necessary before it gets squeezed and sent to the "bird".

A public misuse of logic to support a premise, no matter how casually delivered or passionately felt subverts Cakewalk's credibility.

This was my original criticism about the original blog. It included cliches, bad logic, and made up assumption-facts. The blog essentially told me why Mike thought he needed a subwoofer... the blog didn't even support it's own title, which was "why you need a Subwoofer".

That is why I advise that Cakewalk put together some two person blogging teams... every good writer needs a good editor. If a true experienced print content editor isn't possible then you guys might consider helping each other out as partners. Bounce the ideas around, rarefy the ideas down to the essence of the message, work the thought so that it can stand on it's own merits. Scrutinize the article for embarrassing or revealing misuse of logic. Endeavor to make sure the facts are actually facts.  That sort of stuff is really helpful and the finished articles will be so much more useful both as outreach for Cakewalk and as information for Cakewalk's customers (PLEASE notice that I didn't say consumer).

I wasn't criticizing the blog for it's lack of detail... which I think may have been Brandon's impression. We can see a detailed explanation of subwoofers at the Bob Katz article that Jeff linked too. I was simply saying that an international corporation shouldn't try to present fallacy to an audience that is qualified to recognize the lack of accurate content.

Honestly, presenting badly formulated non-logic as if it is the result of "decades of combined experience as musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters, and enthusiasts." just doesn't look good.

I don't expect anyone to appreciate this critique today... hopefully down the road it may sink in and prove helpful.

Sincerely wishing you the very best.
mike

You really know how to hurt a guy Mike! L! O! L!

So I'm assuming Seth's car has a sub in it, otherwise he wouldn't have picked up on this, right? ;)

You really know how to hurt a guy Mike! L! O! L!

 
 
If you believe he hurt someone, it's appalling that you find that funny.
 
Some real insensitive statements around here, lately.
 
It's like the villians are striking in the city.
 
Oh, where are the super heroes!
 
Oh where oh where has my underdog gone. Oh where oh where can he be...

FastBikerBoy


@anyone who takes comments personally.........

I'd take the time to find out who walks the walk here, and who just talks the talk - then weight their opinions and input accordingly - I'm sure you won't feel half as bad then.

I'm also wondering at which point arrogance crosses from just plain rude to breathtaking.....

Bingo Karl!! Well said. Not to mention....anyone having bass issues (or lack thereof) in their mixes to where it's taking them days or weeks to mix something because of low end problems, you're just beating yourself up NOT to have a sub. It will never hurt anyone to have one no matter who you are or what room you're in. Worst case scenario, you mix bass light which means you're using too much sub. Back it down a bit, try the mix again. If your current monitors give you the right amount of bass and your mixes are coming out fine and transfering well everywhere, you don't need one. End of discussion.
 
I must admit FBB, I'm amazed at some of the stuff I read in this thread. It's done something good for me though. I've always been against the ignore feature....now I welcome it.
 
Thomas: If only I could find my super energy pill ring and sweet polly would stop molesting me....sheesh, these older women in their prime I tell ya! :-Þ
 
-Danny

thomasabarnes

You really know how to hurt a guy Mike! L! O! L!

If you believe he hurt someone, it's appalling that you find that funny.
 
Some real insensitive statements around here, lately.
 
It's like the villians are striking in the city.
 
Oh, where are the super heroes!
 
Oh where oh where has my underdog gone. Oh where oh where can he be...

You misinterpreted my comment ... as usual.

As for Seth and Mike, neither one of them need you or any 'super hero' to step in. They're big boys and can defend themselves.

For the record, I personally believe Mike is correct and I'm looking forward to Seth's response.

Let me give you an analogy that may make Mike's post a little clearer to you. Let's say you have a prescription medical pumping device that you use and you know how it works. But, someone else tried it and said it didn't work at all, but you knew it did because you used it extensively. Wouldn't you try to set the record straight?

That's what this is really all about anyways ain't it?



Right about now, I suspect, is when you'll start pulling fallacies out of the Ethereal Plane to try and prove someone else right or wrong, depending on which side of the universe you're on today.

This should get interesting.

It is literally impossible to respect grown men who act like Mike and Bub. Wretched pair of whiney wannabe bullies, wasting everyone else's time nearly as much as their own. What makes people like this? 

trimph1


Well, I did find some of my mixes could use a sub. 

But now the question arises...which one?

What monitors do you have currently, trimph? If they offer a sub that was made for them, that's where I'd start. As for me, I've had the best results with an Adam Sub 8 that works well with all my monitors. I have the sub hooked up into a switcher so I can just add in whatever monitors I want to use and the sub is in with them. I have a KRK 10 that's pretty cool too.
 
-Danny

backwoods


Speaking of superheroes, there are a couple of candidates on the forums. It has been stated by Cakewalk staffers that Cakewalk's own Jimmy Landry might actually be Batman.

Also, check this out- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxLCq2phm_k . "Happy to Be Alive" by Danny Danzi- virtuoso technique from a guitar super hero.

I'm trying to figure out if there is some sarcasm here or you're truly being nice. :) I'm far from any kind of super hero...but I truly loved Underdog as a kid and was him for Halloween like 4 years in a row. LOL!
 
At any rate, if you were being kind, thank you very much for that. :) If not, have I done something to upset you some how? Sorry for my negative thoughts...it just sort of seemed strange to me that you'd post one of my links out of the blue like that. You did something like this one other time when you posted a piece of my bio from my site on on here in a thread that came out of nowhere. I can't think of a time where I may have gotten into a confrontation with you....but if I have at some point and it's bothering you or something, please feel free to pm me if you'd like to talk about it. :)
 
-Danny

Bub


In all seriousness ... what did Mike do that was wrong? Yeah, his post was a bit of a zinger and probably could have been worded a little different, but for the most part I think he's pretty much dead on. My LOL was the 'holy crap I can't believe you just said that' kind.

And let's be honest here ... there's hardly a person in this thread who has any room to be criticizing others for their behavior ... some admin included.

Hey Bub, I don't think it's what anyone did that was wrong....personally, if you don't mind my take, I felt (not singling anyone out...just the over-all vibe I got from some of the responses) I felt a few people may have taken things a bit out of context to what they were really meant to be. For example, let's say you worked for Cakewalk. I know you're pretty much a hobby guy with recording etc, but to me you're a serious hobby guy that does a really good job on your stuff.
 
That said, if you were having issues with low end in your mixes and one day bought a sub and it allowed you not to second guess yourself anymore in the low end area and you just felt like sharing that in a blog because Cake said it was ok to, would you be a little upset if people jumped all over you for stating your opinion on what has worked for you? Regardless of how some of the facts pro engineers would figure into the equasion may not be there, would your opinion be any less credible?
 
See I look at it this way. The super pro guy on here pretty much are etched in stone with how they think, what they do and where their experience level may be. There are also more people that probably aren't super pro on this forum that could really benefit from having a sub if they are struggling to hear bass in their mixes. See man, I was one of those guys. LOL! Bass was something that plagued me for so many years, I wasted too much time.
 
Yeah, monitor/room tuning was one of my major flaws...but without it, just adding that sub made an incredible difference for me. Can you see my point at all? And, since this is the hottest part of the forum, why not tell the people on here that could benefit from this that may not be pro's that just may be in need of fixing a low end issue? That's how I took the blog. Just a normal man that happens to work for Cakewalk sharing what has worked for him in the event others may have been having that issue.
 
I don't think any of it was really misleading as I have heard systems in rooms that didn't have any room or monitor tuning that just did well with the addition of a sub. As a matter of fact, I just worked in a room last week that was like that. The guy had a nice set of Dynaudio monitors and he just bought a sub. He had the sub dialed in a bit subby sounding which I picked up on as soon as I listened to my reference material....but finding the sweet spot for that sub took 15 seconds and other than some foam and stuff, this guy really didn't have much in the way of tuning or anything. The mix I did there came out wonderful and I didn't even use ARC or anything else.
 
So in certain situations, the addtion of a sub can really make a nice difference without all the pro stuff that goes with it. It's just a basic statement of "hey, this worked for me...it may work for you too" is how I took it. I wasn't thinking about Mike T being a pro engineer or anything...or that it should be a spot on, loaded with tech facts blog for pro's because Cakewalk is a professional company or anything. I just took it as "that's what worked for him and he shared it." I'd be willing to bet that's how Mike T felt about it too, ya know? Does this make any sense at all? Honest, I'm not trying to make any waves or upset anyone....I just felt that a few may have been reading into it a bit too deep even though some of their pro assessments would be correct. If it were someone from here that was just a normal dude that didn't work for the company, would that person receive the same comments?
 
Just curious....you get good results with your mixes....do you use a sub? If not, a guy like you with your set-up doesn't appear to need one. If you DO use one, how would you fair if you mixed without turning it on? I'd fail miserably without mine. LOL!
 
-Danny 

My thanks to Danny for a previous post on this topic
Prior to buying a Yorkville sub last week - the comments on my mixes were of the "nice band backing up that bass guitar" variety
Went a long way to solving my issues (the musics ones anyway!)

I have the KRK 8's and the 10 sub and they work great together. If you add the 10 sub to your KRK 5's I am sure you will love it !

Norrie


I have the KRK 8's and the 10 sub and they work great together. If you add the 10 sub to your KRK 5's I am sure you will love it !

Norrie, that's what I'm using at my other studio. We have the old KRK Rokit 8's...remember the big ones? They sound killer! Added the sub 10 recently and it made an incredible difference for the better. I think the 10 could be a little big for certain rooms, but we have a pretty big one at the new place so it's good for us. One of my buds just got a Genelec 12 or something....it's ferocious and pretty much over-kill in my opinion. How the heck he mixes using that thing is beyond me. LOL! Everything I hear over there seems to have too much sub kick to it...yet when you play his stuff, it always sounds spot on. Hey, whatever works, right? :) Are you using the newer KRK 8's?
 
-Danny