+
The only sub I'd introduce to my mixing process. A subwoofer could be used to check the transfers sonic "accuracy" after the mix is done, not before. You spend top dollar for un influenced reference speakers, Id suggest only using subwoofers to check your mix.  

Scott Lee


  +
The only sub I'd introduce to my mixing process. A subwoofer could be used to check the transfers sonic "accuracy" after the mix is done, not before. You spend top dollar for un influenced reference speakers, Id suggest only using subwoofers to check your mix.  

While I respect your opinion Scott, I don't agree at all. Why "after" and not "during"? Why does the presence of a sub mean it's somehow "influenced"?

And many speakers are "influenced" by their design. Some argue that some Mackie models are examples of this. (I've never owned a pair...just lived next to a guy who did). Properly setup subs won't influence anything...they just reproduce what's already there. Subs don't hype bass - at least they shouldn't.

Ever heard the JBL LSR system with and without the sub?  

There are a whole lot of TV shows I watch where I wish they would use a sub, because they leave all kinds of crazy low frequency content in that should have been dealt with (i.e. wooshing, rumble, massively over pronounced kicks in background music etc.). I hear it all the time on the news and even on network shows. Is that a space ship landing?No it's just The Bachelor, or Tom reporting live from Santa Monica.

And anyway, I like my subs steamed. 

trimph1


Is there a 'magic spot' wherein one could place a sub in a 10 foot by 18 foot room? 

Not really a magic spot. It depends on the room, like most things.  Here is Blue Sky's guide on subwoofer placement.

http://abluesky.com/support/subwoofer-placement-guide/

I'll warn you, it's a lot of trial and error with little rule of thumb.

Here's the quote from the Blue Sky site where they explain their various technical justifications for why they have given up on promoting the idea of clear crisp bass reproduction because they have decided their customers all work in cheesy situations. Their overall advice taken from the other pages at that link seems to be the same cut and paste "Put it some where it doesn't sound too bad" advice that all purveyors of price point speakers practice. 

It's not just weak... it's pitiful.



"To understand why this is the case, we must first understand how our brains process location cues from our ears. Above approximately 700 Hz (depends on the size of your head), your brain uses Interaural Level Difference (ILD) as the primary factor in determining the directional location of a sound (slightly over simplified explanation). ILD is the difference in level of a sound, between your two ears. Below approximately 700 Hz your brain begins to rely on the Interaural Time Difference (ITD) between your ears, also known as – phase shift, to determine the directional location of a sound. This works very well until the wavelengths get very long, the source becomes omni-directional, such as a subwoofer, which radiates energy spherically in its pass band, and you are in an enclosed space. In an enclosed space, such as a studio, with a source that is radiating spherically (again, such as a subwoofer), the ITD will be close to zero. This is because energy from the source is arriving at the listener from many paths, with many overlapping time differences and your brain will not be able to derive the primary location cues from your ears. Therefore your directional acuity at these low frequencies will be near zero. However, you will have very high directional acuity at higher frequencies and because your directional cues are coming from the SATs, which typically are playing the harmonics of the LF fundamentals, this is where your brain believes the sound is coming from. Provided there is no audible distortion or sonic artifacts at higher frequencies (port noise etc.), and the sound emanating from the subwoofer is limited to below approximately 100 Hz, it will be impossible for the listener to identify the location of the subwoofer in a studio."



Information presented in that manner could turn a guy like me into a cynic.

Any chance you have a better link Brandon?

Come on, use your clout and get us a reprint or something from the AES library.

:-)



best regards,
mike

Hi Jeff,

That particluar article is, in my opinion, very well written.

Thanks for sharing the link.


best regards,
mike

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Greybeard


Blue Sky makes some of the best-reviewed, best-bang-for-the-buck studio monitoring systems available and they've incorporated subs since day one.  I wish I still had my old Media Desk 2.1 rig.  Blue Sky Systems

I have an older version of their ProDesk system and really like it. the desktop volume control is very sweet.
http://abluesky.com/products/prodesk-5-1/

I have the Blue Sky Media Desk 2.1.  I really love them.  The whole concept of the sub not being an add-on is great.  It's like a 3 way system.  IMO if it's there I want to hear it.

konradh


I am also getting tired of rants about how evil Cakewalk or some other company is, when the people ranting would be devastated without the products they sell.  If it were not so sad, it would almost be funny to read all these complaints when a company wants to charge $29 for miraculous software that took thousands of hours of development and will require many thousands more in support. Examples: The price of Sonar X1 and the price of Melodyne Assistant are both very low considering the development work, support, marketing, etc., and the fact that both are only used by a very small and specilialized segment of the population (unlike a video game or a word processor).  Guitar Rig came free with Sonar and only cost me $50 to upgrade to the full professional version.  Compare the price of RealGuitar to the cost of session players.  You get the idea.

If Cakewalk were plugging a product here, I would not mind.  1-It is their forum and 2-I get a lot of very useful information from reading product releases, advertisements, and feature lists.

If you want to be su****ious, turn your attention to trade magazines that give glowing reviews to 9 out of 10 products.  My opinion, however, is that competition and consumer awareness have raised the bar and 9 out of 10 products in our field are pretty good.  
 
Edit: Not sure why s-u-s-p-i-c-i-o-u-s is not allowed.

Damn right you are Konrad !.

I just stumbled on this thread while popping by to see if my X1-D had arrived yet.

I spend very little time here nowadays, I just don't need all that cynicism and negativity infecting my day ... (or night :-).

Funny thing is, I come here LOOKING for product news / updates / information.

And if Cake were selling Subs, I'd be wondering why they didn't use their own forum to disseminate some information on their shiny new subs or
other product releases ... I'd start thinking the merketing department need some lessons in marketing and how to make full use
of their resources.

As you well point out, we get amazingly great value for money around here. And those that don't feel they are getting value are free
to look elsewhere for something better. I'd sincerely wish them luck. I'm sure there are other reasonably good products out there,
but none of it's perfect, and there's no "One Size Fits All" solutions in this game.

Sometimes you'd think some of the people around here are worried that the good folks at Cakewalk are trying to sneakily rob them - on the forum.

I guess some people are plain paranoid, and some others just wouldn't be happy if they had nothing to complain about ... so they'll
always find something to satisfy their craving.


Anyway, other than that I'm not joining in this conversation. There's no need. Sensible people see and understand what gives, and
others will only argue or poo-poo, which I have no time for.

Gee, reading what I just wrote ... I hope I'm not becoming cynical :-)

Hmm, where's my X1-D ?.

Happy music making all.


Cheers - Cliff

Mike Trujillo [Cakewalk]

Am I trying to sell subs? Well duh, come see me Saturday afternoons behind the Stop N Go.

We have Kum & Go's here in the Midwest. When I moved here I almost wrecked my car laughing the first time I saw a sign for one.

Some additional perspective perhaps:

Some of the best sounding albums I know of are mixed in this room (or one like it). Both 5.1 and stereo. Granted, the drums and some guitars are recorded elsewhere, but mixing, vocal recording, and even mastering happens in this environment. Just goes to show ya... 

(there's a sub though )



photo courtesy of Sound On Sound

My guess is Billy that people are speaking perhaps more generally, not just about this thread, and not specifically about you. I know that was the case regarding my comments awhile back. You weren't even the first one or only one that questioned the blog post, etc.

Anyway, I definitely know you've supported Cakewalk and been a customer for a long time.

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

Some additional perspective perhaps:

Some of the best sounding albums I know of are mixed in this room (or one like it). Both 5.1 and stereo. Granted, the drums and some guitars are recorded elsewhere, but mixing, vocal recording, and even mastering happens in this environment. Just goes to show ya... 

(there's a sub though )



photo courtesy of Sound On Sound

Do you remember/know what are the Genelec models in the picture? Looks like nearfields are 8030A but they could be 8040A, too. Is sun 7060A or bigger? 

Scott Lee


  +
The only sub I'd introduce to my mixing process. A subwoofer could be used to check the transfers sonic "accuracy" after the mix is done, not before. You spend top dollar for un influenced reference speakers, Id suggest only using subwoofers to check your mix.  

  


Is much tastier for me (since it's what I've consumed) 

ba_midi

Basics like good will and jovial attitudes are hard to find these days, indeed.  And, yes, there's enough cynicism to fill multiple auditoriums these days.

I know what you mean Billy. I didn't even get a chorgle, winky, smiley, or PWF the other day over my "In the park with Aqualung?" comment in different thread. I mean, it really hurt me. It was a classic.

konradh

 
Edit: Not sure why s-u-s-p-i-c-i-o-u-s is not allowed.

Hi Konrad,
I assume the forum doesn't allow that word because the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th letters spell a derogatory word for folks of Central and South American heritage. Kinda seems excessive to me, but hey, this is the internet.


Topic at hand, I use a Tannoy sub on a separate output channel than my nearfields. It's 10 inches and activated by a button on my big knob.  Sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't.  It seems to me that I remember the "You need a sub/You don't need a sub" argument going back for some time in studio circles. Some guys like them, some don't. For me I think room treatment is way more important and should come first (otherwise you're just adding clutter not clarity), but there's certainly nothing wrong with getting one. 


Dean


Edit: Rereading that posting I feel like I need to specify that I'm referring to a Mackie Big Knob monitor controller above.  OTOH, the sentence that included that term was the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've written in a while :)

Razorwit

konradh


Edit: Not sure why s-u-s-p-i-c-i-o-u-s is not allowed.

Edit: Rereading that posting I feel like I need to specify that I'm referring to a Mackie Big Knob monitor controller above.  OTOH, the sentence that included that term was the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've written in a while :)

OMG - HAHAHA